Voting systems and their balance worth
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  1. #1

    Voting systems and their balance worth

    @Voss recently thought about the hypothesis that voting systems have a significant impact on balance by their nature (and not only through the experience level of the players with the specific vote system in use, like I think). I would like more thoughts on this, because it's an interesting idea, although I don't really agree with it.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
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    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  2. #2

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    There are different sub-mechanics at play in voting systems used in all types of mafia, so this thread is kind of open ended. I fear the risk of it devolving into something not useful.

    The following two questions are different.

    If you're looking to answer whether vote system mechanics affect balance at all, I have a no brainer example for you.

    If you're looking to answer to what extent vote system mechanics affect balance, like in terms of saying whether hammer voting is more scum sided than majority vote, that's a much more interesting question. But if you don't believe that vote system mechanics affect balance in the first place than we really need to just discuss the no brainer example.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  3. #3

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    There are different sub-mechanics at play in voting systems used in all types of mafia, so this thread is kind of open ended. I fear the risk of it devolving into something not useful.

    The following two questions are different.

    If you're looking to answer whether vote system mechanics affect balance at all, I have a no brainer example for you.

    If you're looking to answer to what extent vote system mechanics affect balance, like in terms of saying whether hammer voting is more scum sided than majority vote, that's a much more interesting question. But if you don't believe that vote system mechanics affect balance in the first place than we really need to just discuss the no brainer example.
    Significantly affecting balance by their nature? Mmmm, I don't think so, but I'm ready to hear your example. If they do though, the extent of their effect is very interesting indeed; I'm asking both questions.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  4. #4

  5. #5

  6. #6

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Putting birdbot slot machine and anon votes next to each other, you have something completely random on one side, and something easily manipulable by organized teams on the other side. That's gonna lead to completely different players getting lynched
    bird vote isn't random, but this is also a very appropriate fantastic example that doesn't rely on setup.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  7. #7

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    To be fair, manipulating Condorcet isn't too hard when you understand how it works (and you can't be blamed by most people for "steering the lynch" because they don't get what you're doing, unlike in other systems). However, it's true that different people will be lynched. But is that more pro-town or pro-scum?
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  8. #8

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    All setups that aren't purely mountainous are balanced around the scum winning when voting is done entirely randomly, by statistics. A vote system is pro-town when it leads to the town having full knowledge over who they are lynching. It becomes pro scum, on the other hand, whenever it makes the town know less. A higher lack of knowledge and a larger amount of additional knowledge for the team with private chat make the significance of the balance difference.

  9. #9

  10. #10

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    my lesser, but still appropriate example: hammer votes

    it's considered scummy to hammer vote yes to the point that it's within the sc2mafia meta to not hammer vote early. however, if you're in an Eliminate or Lose situation and someone's at L-1, the informed, minority team can hammer the voted individual for a win, even if other people on the train might not have wanted to vote with someone. They can't do anything about it, because they aren't around 24/7.

    as a result, we have these silly dances where votes are 'pressure' but quickly pulled off if things build up too quickly because people are afraid of scum using their advantage to end day and discussion early. so town, in addition to having to find scum by interacting with people, also have to multi task and make sure that pro-scum mechanics aren't being exploited.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  11. #11

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    To be fair, manipulating Condorcet isn't too hard when you understand how it works (and you can't be blamed by most people for "steering the lynch" because they don't get what you're doing, unlike in other systems). However, it's true that different people will be lynched. But is that more pro-town or pro-scum?
    manipulation because people can't strategize and understand something (arguably not) complex is very different than if the rules are understood, but the rules are not objectively complex. rules that make eliminations harder to use is lessening the only mechanic that town has.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  12. #12

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    I'm trying not to derail the thread into how condorcet actually works, but it is neither random, nor manipulatable. any problems with it are a result of forum medium and have been addressed in the updated condorcet thread 1.1

    we can however talk about easier vote systems like single vote plurality, multi vote plurality and ranked choice voting.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  13. #13

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    I think a balance needs to be sort of struck tbh between the ability to lynch people prior to EoD and preventing an (accidental?/scum-driven) early lynch. I like the mod’s trial mechanic a lot, and I think it would fit quite well, although it requires the host to br online pretty much 24/7.

  14. #14

  15. #15

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    Personally i think plurality is totally fine with 48h days; people generally dont lynch early anyways so the influence of plurality is barely felt in normal games.
    Its a different story for games with longer days: plurality forces people to use the entire day, even if they’ve more or less made up their minds and want to see flips. I find that annoying as a town player.

  16. #16

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Actually, anon bird slots is the scummiest vote system. And it's significantly more scum-sided than something towny like full public plurality with all votes in, and maybe even additional trial phase.
    Its not the scummiest IMO. Plurality or even worse, majority with secret ballots is significantly worse.

  17. #17

    Re: Voting systems and their balance worth

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I think a balance needs to be sort of struck tbh between the ability to lynch people prior to EoD and preventing an (accidental?/scum-driven) early lynch. I like the mod’s trial mechanic a lot, and I think it would fit quite well, although it requires the host to br online pretty much 24/7.
    there are different ways to slice and dice this, but i 100% agree with oberon here.

    in a world where we weren't limited by the forum tech, I could see us having two sorts of votes.
    1. A pressure vote that turns into a real vote when time runs out.
    2. A "locked in vote" that would trigger a hammer if you got to 51%.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

 

 

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