S-FM 305: Spirits II (Ladder Game)

[MartinGG99]

Idk imma need more scumhunting from ren / varcron to move you two off the table. Im sure your townreads are helpful to others but i want more help mafia.

And if those are unavailable, try interacting more with your nulls.

Well if you want my take, currently bakermir is TBD

but these people are a little bit more on my radar than others (in no particular or meaningful order):

Varcron
Zedus
Renegade
Grylander

and one more person if they don't produce more by the end of EoD2.

I'll likely be producing another relative reads list (ranking everyone scummiest to towniest on a scale relative to each other like before) again tomorrow.

[Varcron]

Idk imma need more scumhunting from ren / varcron to move you two off the table. Im sure your townreads are helpful to others but i want more help mafia.

And if those are unavailable, try interacting more with your nulls.

Yeah I'll try and narrow down my townreads/scumhunt more in the coming hours/days

[Dark Magician]

My reads list so far:

Town:
Martin
Bakermir
Mike
Varcron (Townlocked)
Marshmallow Marshall
blinkskater

Townish
GOOFY Renegade
Frinkles

Null:
Gyrlander (I literally cannot read him for the life of me rn, he'll change later probably)

Scumlean:
Mesk

Scum:
Zedus

Knowing my read lists I likely forgot someone, know that early game all reads are subject to change as some probably will over the next day.

Why am I not in this?
And why is Martin Town? I feel more like they have potential to be scum buddies with Zedus.

[Mike]

You claimed you wanted to bait the kill or check? Does that go out the window now?

Well duh. Lol no point in it now with who is in the graveyard.

[Dark Magician]

Not saying that’s the case.
I’m saying that’s what I honestly am lead to believe.

[Mike]

that explains it. you've been laid in your life and have had a woman keep you in check.

That is true every man needs a good woman.

[Mike]

It's true that I am the most ignored slot in the game. Very true.

Nah not ignored just townlean on you.

[Dark Magician]

The only person I am convinced is not scum is Mike.

My Reads

Town Lean

Mike
(Auwt) - ded
Mesk - volatile, but towny volatile

Null

(mm) - ded
Varcron - infamously is scumread but I think he has made a few valid points.
Bakemir - so many of his posts give me a bad vibe. But if we have Scum V Scum with him and marino then one of them is the virus?
Dark Magician - I don't know.
Zedus - also playing slightly differently this game and talks about mafia chat (but making mistakes, an act?)
Frinckles - laid extremely low d1, now taking 'easy' shots perhaps day 2.

Scum

Marino - acting very twitchy and differently in my opinion.


SO I'm placing my vote for here for now:

-vote MartinGG99

Will also consider Zedus or Frinkle. Open to more.

I mean at least you actually had me on your readslist.

[Varcron]

Why am I not in this?
And why is Martin Town? I feel more like they have potential to be scum buddies with Zedus.

You are in my townreads, as mentioned in a later post.

I doubt Zedus and Martin are scum buddies by how fundamentally different they seem from D1 and even from D2

[Dark Magician]

DM sits in the town category, thank you.

What made you forget about me?
What makes you put me in Town Reads and where am I in your town reads?

[Dark Magician]

You are in my townreads, as mentioned in a later post.

I doubt Zedus and Martin are scum buddies by how fundamentally different they seem from D1 and even from D2

I felt the opposite Tbh.

[Varcron]

What made you forget about me?
What makes you put me in Town Reads and where am I in your town reads?

You are in my upper portion of townreads and I read you because of your opposition of the PR hunting from Zedus. Your overrall reaction in your interactions with him appeared towny from my eyes.

[bakermir]

Spoiler : martin :

Alright, I have quite a few things to say about bakermir. I will show I have a lot more than just "NOTHING" against him.

The short version of it is:

-He is misrepresenting or misinterpreting some of my actions or posts (although a select few are true except for the misjudgment that I'm scum)

-He is taking advantage of the fact that there have been only very limited windows for me to interact or, as he says "confront" him on things I was bothered by him.

-He has repeatedly asked as well as wanting to discuss again and again: mafia, town, and virus play. (Though I don't think town play discussion is bad)

-Much of what he has done closely represents (at least in my point of view) what I tried to do in my last and only scum game:

1. Get into a fight with someone very early on
2. Collect as much information as possible from townies
3. Power wolf with manipulation tactics, with the aid of given information from townies

With the way he has acted towards me and others I cannot feel this is purely towny, and perhaps even trying to LAMIST ("look at me I'm so town"), among other things.

Now, on to addressing bakermir's 'concerns', and to providing and supporting my claims against bakermir:

Spoiler : My Defense :

Firstly, I am inactive from around 2am/3am to 12pm/1pm every day (EDT; any time mentions here are EDT in my time). A lot of the posts you made that I had problems with, such as #234 (made at 9:56 AM on August 9th), were made between that inactivity time. Ironically, you show up 30 minutes after my last post of D1, and you start laying down the lies that I haven't been confronting you when it’s quite clear that we often aren't active at the same time.

You were more active around my time on August 8th, but that was before I had problems with you such as your #234 post and therefore couldn't confront you because I had little reason to do so yet, though you were on my radar.

There was also a (roughly) 4 hour window between me being active and you disappearing at 4:11 PM of August 9th. During that window I had just woken up, and was reviewing the interactions and posts that took place while I was gone. Yes, it could have been a good opportunity to ask and confront you, but do you really think I'm so quick as to do things right on the spot within 4 hours of when I woke up (among the other things to do such as having breakfast or evaluating other players)?

Also, bakermir keeps on saying (or implying) this but I haven't seen him quote a single post (or part of a post) where I got it wrong in terms of context and him correcting me. So I have absolutely no clue what he's talking about here, since he has made no effort to specify what was out of context. When people take me out of context (like Dark Magician), I point it out. He mistook me for talking about myself and I was actually just talking about Mike. I haven't seen bakermir do the same.



1.The first half of that statement there is almost completely reminiscent of how you interacted with Mike at times. And yet you TR him in the end. That, by itself only, just looks like pure OMGUS. I imagine you you knew that, so you've created other reasons for it, such as accusing me of an inconsistency that doesn't exist. See below at to why.

2. I have my own reasons for town reading Dark Magician. I haven't said them yet because I don't want scum to manipulate me into town reading you and other scum. My reasoning for the town read solely exists as this:

-Dark Magician, like you said, seems to be a smurf who knows the game of Mafia. Which is what I agree with.

-However, if he's a veteran then I cannot imagine a veteran doing such a derp-post where it says "okay you're definitely not a PR" -- many scums are self-conscious, he doesn't have that anywhere here. I'm inclined to believe he's just a pure town even if his reasons or beliefs are potentially wrong just because he isn't self-conscious here.

-Besides, if we WIFOM it, it can provide good TPR cover. Or maybe I am a TPR. Who knows?

Thanks to you however, I cannot really town read anyone making a derp anymore after this because now this information is out in the open for possible manipulation.




I'm not sure how or where you get this conclusion from. I really don't. Please explain this to me if you can. Because this just really feels like you trying to fit your arguments into places where they don't fit.

All I said, according to the part you highlighted, was "I haven't changed entirely, but I have in small ways in small aspects." --- Seriously, how does this relate at all? It feels like you're trying to fit me into some crazy story you have in your head, and in the process of doing that you're making weird conclusions from statements about myself as compared to the past. It looks forced.

And even considering the non-highlighted part of the quote you're responding to, I was referring to a game on a different website, with a completely different setup. How does that have any influnence on this game? Furthermore, you said yourself (or implied, see post #83) at the beginning of this game that I was different from the time we first played. This is clearly an acknowledgment that I've changed, but you don't seem to recognize that for the argument or point you make here as it connects to a topic related to a game I had about a month ago. Or, rather, you intentionally disregarded that in order to push a narrative about me.

Spoiler : Related quote :

The only valid complaint I've seen so far was my post about Mike (see spoiler above) in response to bakermir. The wording does suggest that TPR hunting isn't scummy, but in all honesty I was writing from a stream of conciousness, and usually I am good at putting it together but this time it didn't. I had two thoughts running at the time:

-Mike isn't really TPR hunting

-Yet bakermir is presuming that this is scummy

When those two thoughts combine in my head, it created that weird message where I suggest TPR hunting wasn't scummy as I was trying to convince bakermir that it wasn't TPR hunting by (rhetorically) assuming it was for a moment. I ask anyone who reads this to recognize this belief has been inconsistent with my play and actions -- if I did truly believe it wasn't scummy then I would've been TPR hunting. Besides, who says that as any alignment?

Any other argument's I've seen about me are based on "Martin is probably scum teamed with X" and I can't really defend myself from that since I'm town. Any sort of "teaming" might be the wolves trying to pocket me or otherwise get me killed.
Besides, if its related to Zedus then I think that is just taking advantage of the circumstances between me and him and I would like to see reasons as to why I’m scum unrelated to him.

Spoiler : Why Bakermir is scummy :

Alright, here's where I think bakermir is probably scum, and a fair bit has to do with my last scum game on MU (read if you wish): https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...99s-Paradise-3

Basically, I went and did three things (as stated above in this post):

1. Get into a fight with someone early on; have it resolved as TvT (this was within the first 200ish posts of the scum game)

2. Repeatedly attempt to gain information from townies. (I at various points posted my own reads lists and often asked for the reads lists of everyone else, especially D1 in my scum game)

3. Use that information to manipulate and power wolf through everyone (I used the reads to push consensus votes in my scum game)

Spoiler : Evidence for number 1 :

Well, the evidence for him getting into an early fight with Mike is obvious and comes across numerous posts. However, what bugs me is how he ends it, with his #234 post:

Spoiler : #234 post :

Colors originally in the post disabled for argument's sake, any colors here are added by me.

Your initial statement contradicts what you do for the rest of the post -- I am quite sure you could've "spilled the beans" about your "lynch proof" predicament but nothing resulting from that calls for you to openly speculate about generalized plausible play.

Quite frankly, if you do anything that looks like a foolish early D1 attack on another person you know to be town (or provoke it from them), people generally read it as TvT. I did this in my scum game, and I don't think it takes a whole lot to imagine or think of. Especially for someone who has given a lot of wall posts with quite a bit of speculation.

This seems or feels like saying "hey, this was kinda my plan all along, and we've arrived at this 'lynch proof'" state, and trying to earn town points from your evaluation from it. Also, I don't really think you need to share all your thoughts (or speculation) to win unless you're scum and are doing what I'm overall accusing you of in the rest of this case.

Spoiler : Evidence for number 2 :

As much as I do think some speculation is fine, I think bakermir takes it to a whole new level where either he has a million speculations or he has put every speculative thought he had out there.

Spoiler : Series Of Quotes :

Discussing speculation about scum play. I think discussing scum play is dangerous and prone to being manipulated by scum. I think its usually okay when discussing whether one person is scum or not, but if you start from this speculation as a reason for suspicion then you're quite manipulatable. Although you can't really be manipulated if you're scum....However he states he isn't trying to convince anyone of his speculation, but it does seem to factor into the arguments he makes in the thread at times, so I think inevitably he is trying to convince people of his speculation on scum play.

I don't understand how he can’t see saying his speculation has potential in changing the very scum play that he's hunting for? I mean, If I were scum that it would be quite easy to avoid being scum read by him based on how much he information he has given out in the previous paragraph of this here quote.

Not to mention, he has asked for these kinds of thoughts from other players, which is what I find concerning. Normally you would ask maybe one or two people if you were secretly scum hunting them based on their answer, but I don't think it’s good that he's trying to reveal all the town's cards:

Spoiler : More quotes :

As I said in an earlier response to this, this is quite similar to a question to an answer I gave on post #8. Just worded differently in order to try and get the same information that I didn't wish to reveal. It looks like you’re trying to start a discussion on this that (in my firm opinion) has potential to harm town more than it’ll help town.


Okay, I'll give you this. I think some topics are fine to openly discuss and speculate. Such as possible town priorities. It is ones that tend to assume scum will act a certain way are what bother me, such as here. They're dangerous assumptions or speculations to make, and provided scum knows everyone's thoughts on scum play, they can just weasel right by it without ever being caught. Although, I do think some of the possible subjects exist in a sort of "grey area", and I'm not sure if they should be discussed. On the one hand, discussing optimal vigilante play prevents scum from claiming vigilante and blending in with the claims on who they "shot" as well as making sure our vigilantes are efficient as possible, on the other hand such information can prepare scum for who they can expect to die. If they can expect who dies, they have better control of the game.

Spoiler : Evidence for number 3 :

I will admit, #3 is yet to be seen but if there are two scum (including bakermir) in that "lynch proof" state then he has already started to work his magic.

I just think #2 is the excuse for him to allow his scum buddies slip by to win the game, which will be #3.

If anything, this is the weakest point of my argument and/or case here.

So, I hope you all have looked at the evidence for the number 1, 2, and 3 parts. I also hope that you all can see where I am coming from, and why I wish to put bakermir under a magnifying glass -- and consider elimination. Because I feel like his actions as displayed in #1 are indicative and along with #2 displays a level or degree of open speculation to the point that it may as well be anti-town for its potential to leave him and/or others to be manipulated.

However, there was one final point I wanted to make:

Spoiler : One Final Point :

I quite disagree with the elimination of slots that are bound to be replaced. I believe someone said it earlier, but statistically speaking they're more likely to be town than not, provided no participation.

Given the above, along with some of your other actions, I have to say this: If your most likeliest elimination vote is the people who vote you, or the people who don't post at all, then this just really looks like scum grasping at straws here because they had TMI and relatively townread everyone else. That, or you need to up your scum hunting game because if you're aren't courageous enough to look at people who don't attack you or do post much then a lot of scum can just slip by you by virtue of knowing that.

I'll die if I have to prove this point to you (or the town) about this.

Please note that the above statement isn't meant to offend you or attack you as a person --- its just of my personal opinion (and argument) that I grossly disagree with your statement and arguments at times as a slot, as well as actions.

There, @bakermir

Do you have anything else to say about how I am scum? I believe I've addressed everything (if not most) here with this comprehensive case. Hopefully you more closely understand my perspective of you, or how to manipulate and distort it.

Alright.

I have read this like twice, tried to see things from town martin and scum martin perspective. In the end it doesn't matter because you will never be convinced to townread me nor do I care on personal level but I want to give this slim chance of you being town plus you have been dealing with me this entire game so I think you need a break from me. I am not sure if this tunnel was coming from a confused town or scum. I want to respect the odds since I can't call you 100% scum when Auwt suspected Renegade.

Anyway, me answering this to you in any way will require me to give out more information about me. Now assuming mafia might have done consig on me last night and we still have an uninformed majority during the day, especially after no lynch EOD1, I will be removing some of that WIFOM.


Before I start responding to you, I can apply the same reasoning and logic to your push against me. It reeks wolf just like your posts in general from day 1.

I played a similar game like you yet I claimed citizen. This is where I put people on WIFOM because I admit I have been setting up traps. Some people seen them and some didn't. I received mixed reactions varied between pocketing and doubt. My traps were aimed at scum purely and at no point in this game I tried to uncover someones role. Only alignment and connections with other players.

For your famous point 1 or lets call it a claim:

My engagement with Mike was natural. I didn't expect MM to jump in. I suspected Mike to be Alpha Wolf because the "non-shaman" claim felt very odd to me. This was obviously a trap coming from him but I don't know who Mike is so I decided to poke a stick in this trap and also wanted to see the reaction from possible friends of Mike. Now this turning out to be TvT wasn't an issue for D1 imo but you are bothered by it. Why did you push on me like that on D1? Is it because this was a strategy you did as scum on your MU game? Can you see how selfish that is to assume someone else will do the same? I already explained the possible scum plays from my PoV. If I were virus, I would have played like Mesk. If I were Alpha Wolf then I would have played like MM-Mike or what I do now. If I were Beta wolf, I would have probably played like you and if I were Omega wolf then I would have played like Frinckles. This is how my reasoning works. I don't know how to explain it further. I mean, it is understandable you suspect me based on your past scum play but this is not progressive for town wincon. You can't pair me with anyone in this game. Are you going to pair me with DM like Zedus did? Are you going pair me with MM who I mentioned would be my lynch vote in lylo versus Mike? Do you think I am virus? Why would I be virus and play the loud mouth style knowing it attracts sheriffs and in fact in my first game I had sheriff on me after D1. Are you going to pair me with Varcron? Him and Auwt are the two people that are most familiar with my town style and both had me townread this game. I just find your 1. very personal and not good on the long run for you if you are town.

I am okay with you getting triggered at my bold claim of "LYNCH PROOF TOWNCORE" after our TvT with Mike. It is a town reflex if you are seen enemy of this trio. However you weren't even in Mike, MM or my suspect lists at that moment. I am sure my words put Mike and MM equally under stress. I knew this statement would cause a lot of echo. This was the trap I am talking about. I have hinted at it on my poem post that I am a sheep setting up a trap. I just don't understand why you and Frinckles decided to fall for it. I have called it that vultures will think they will feast on sheep but instead the sheep will serve vultures to rest of herd.


This kinda also explains my reaction to you and Frinckles. I have set it up and you two came after me. I have sensed some wagon forming and spotted DM softening with you, I have sensed Renegade willing to follow but I believe he only wanted a lynch not to wagon like DM would. I still keep Ren on townlean and DM on scumlean but I still haven't analyzed past 50 posts or so and I believe a lot of interesting stuff happened there with reads coming in from bystanders.




I agree with you on "discussing scum play is prone to manipulation"

I think it is a cheap scum tactic to discuss scum play.

However I don't see any problem with it as long as you learn to control yourself and your vote. Scum's main objective is to manipulate. Manipulation is as broad as it gets in FM. If we never discuss some stuff or follow meta then scum can play around meta. Thats a vulnerability and is equally prone to manipulation. The same debate can be applied to role hunting. All of this falls under "grey zone" and I will always suspect the guy shouting "PR HUNTING IS EVIL!!!!!!" in the beginning of the game. This is subject to change as the game progresses. I have fallen to this trap in our first game with Ash. Remember how he was calling out people for TPR hunting? I think we have learned a lot from that game.


I do set traps and I keep the information to myself. IF you think I have been scum in this game then I have no choice but believe you are scum or confused townie. I believed you are not confused because Auwt seen through me. MM seen through me and Varcron seen through me. Maybe more did. Maybe Mike is lying about his interactions with me but I still trust him more than others here.


Two people I trusted as town are dead. Do you think I killed them? I think it would be giving me too much credit for making me responsible of their death.

I am just trying to survive while trying to make sure scum doesn't take out any town, including me.



As for the final part where you talk about me suggesting lynch on afk slots, I am tired of explaining myself but I understood how it can be viewed scum after Auwt pointed it out. I wanted to debate this but then realized it is really smoothbrain of me to not realize we are uninformed majority. I was under the impression it would work similar to sc2mod with afk slots usually turning out to be scum lol. I have realized this mistake of mine on D1 no worries.


Also for the smoothbrain part; It wasn't a personal insult and if you felt offended then I apologize. I like to use this term when I play mafia to describe a confused/lost townie.

Martin, this is for you. I am too tired right now and tried to answer as much as I can and sorry about not structuring my response well, the whole spoiler tags and everything makes is so hard to dissect in this editor. I am still trying to get used to it. Please remind me if I skipped a part, I tried to respond to your evidences/points with one essay explaining my position. But yeah, especially your evidence 1, I understand why but I am telling you thats not the scum game I would play in this game 100%.

[MartinGG99]

What made you forget about me?
What makes you put me in Town Reads and where am I in your town reads?

To be fair, I have in the past forgotten about people in my read lists too in the past.

I mean, even Renegade forgot some people (namely Blinkskater and Grylander) though they remembered you.

[Varcron]

I felt the opposite Tbh.

They could well be teammates, it just doesn't feel like it to me

[MartinGG99]

Martin, this is for you. I am too tired right now and tried to answer as much as I can and sorry about not structuring my response well, the whole spoiler tags and everything makes is so hard to dissect in this editor. I am still trying to get used to it. Please remind me if I skipped a part, I tried to respond to your evidences/points with one essay explaining my position. But yeah, especially your evidence 1, I understand why but I am telling you thats not the scum game I would play in this game 100%.

First off, I've noticed you stayed here (or up) longer than you had in the past. I appreciate that, but if you want to give it a more thorough look tomorrow then that's fine.

I apologize if it seemed like I wanted an answer that you had to risk losing sleep for.

I'll look through it and give my response(s) to you soon.

[bakermir]

First off, I've noticed you stayed here (or up) longer than you had in the past. I appreciate that, but if you want to give it a more thorough look tomorrow then that's fine.

I apologize if it seemed like I wanted an answer that you had to risk losing sleep for.

I'll look through it and give my response(s) to you soon.

Thanks but I am multitasking here. Trying to figure out why we can't use the mail exchange servers when I bash a simple mailer script in terminal despite we got our AWS instance out of "sandbox". Webmail seems to work via stunnel tho

Also it is very humid where I am at. It goes up to like 85% during the nights. It is really nasty.

[Varcron]

Thanks but I am multitasking here. Trying to figure out why we can't use the mail exchange servers when I bash a simple mailer script in terminal despite we got our AWS instance out of "sandbox". Webmail seems to work via stunnel tho

Also it is very humid where I am at. It goes up to like 85% during the nights. It is really nasty.

That does not sound fun.

[Frinckles]

@Dark Magician I suppose your sticking with your theory?

[Dark Magician]

You are in my upper portion of townreads and I read you because of your opposition of the PR hunting from Zedus. Your overrall reaction in your interactions with him appeared towny from my eyes.

Alright.

[Frinckles]

As a rule, poisoner is going to meme poison each day with impunity until the numbers get lower. Here's to hoping he does our job for us.

[Dark Magician]

@Dark Magician I suppose your sticking with your theory?

Until I see a flip. Yes.

[Frinckles]

Until I see a flip. Yes.

So between Martin or Zedus, you'd prefer?

[Dark Magician]

So between Martin or Zedus, you'd prefer?

Either or.

[Frinckles]

Either or.

Feeling curt I see. Well, I guess that's everything needed unless you had something to add.

[MartinGG99]

Right, so I finished my response to it @bakermir

I also spoilered it so Renegade doesn't have to see a rainbow or another showing (in his words) of the pride parade.

Spoiler : Color Coded Avert Thy Renegade Eyes :

Spoiler : Bakermir Response :

Alright.

I have read this like twice, tried to see things from town martin and scum martin perspective. In the end it doesn't matter because you will never be convinced to townread me nor do I care on personal level but I want to give this slim chance of you being town plus you have been dealing with me this entire game so I think you need a break from me. I am not sure if this tunnel was coming from a confused town or scum. I want to respect the odds since I can't call you 100% scum when Auwt suspected Renegade.

Anyway, me answering this to you in any way will require me to give out more information about me. Now assuming mafia might have done consig on me last night and we still have an uninformed majority during the day, especially after no lynch EOD1, I will be removing some of that WIFOM.


Before I start responding to you, I can apply the same reasoning and logic to your push against me. It reeks wolf just like your posts in general from day 1.

I played a similar game like you yet I claimed citizen. This is where I put people on WIFOM because I admit I have been setting up traps. Some people seen them and some didn't. I received mixed reactions varied between pocketing and doubt. My traps were aimed at scum purely and at no point in this game I tried to uncover someones role. Only alignment and connections with other players.

For your famous point 1 or lets call it a claim:

My engagement with Mike was natural. I didn't expect MM to jump in. I suspected Mike to be Alpha Wolf because the "non-shaman" claim felt very odd to me. This was obviously a trap coming from him but I don't know who Mike is so I decided to poke a stick in this trap and also wanted to see the reaction from possible friends of Mike. Now this turning out to be TvT wasn't an issue for D1 imo but you are bothered by it. Why did you push on me like that on D1? Is it because this was a strategy you did as scum on your MU game? Can you see how selfish that is to assume someone else will do the same? I already explained the possible scum plays from my PoV. If I were virus, I would have played like Mesk. If I were Alpha Wolf then I would have played like MM-Mike or what I do now. If I were Beta wolf, I would have probably played like you and if I were Omega wolf then I would have played like Frinckles. This is how my reasoning works. I don't know how to explain it further. I mean, it is understandable you suspect me based on your past scum play but this is not progressive for town wincon. You can't pair me with anyone in this game. Are you going to pair me with DM like Zedus did? Are you going pair me with MM who I mentioned would be my lynch vote in lylo versus Mike? Do you think I am virus? Why would I be virus and play the loud mouth style knowing it attracts sheriffs and in fact in my first game I had sheriff on me after D1. Are you going to pair me with Varcron? Him and Auwt are the two people that are most familiar with my town style and both had me townread this game. I just find your 1. very personal and not good on the long run for you if you are town.

I am okay with you getting triggered at my bold claim of "LYNCH PROOF TOWNCORE" after our TvT with Mike. It is a town reflex if you are seen enemy of this trio. However you weren't even in Mike, MM or my suspect lists at that moment. I am sure my words put Mike and MM equally under stress. I knew this statement would cause a lot of echo. This was the trap I am talking about. I have hinted at it on my poem post that I am a sheep setting up a trap. I just don't understand why you and Frinckles decided to fall for it. I have called it that vultures will think they will feast on sheep but instead the sheep will serve vultures to rest of herd.


This kinda also explains my reaction to you and Frinckles. I have set it up and you two came after me. I have sensed some wagon forming and spotted DM softening with you, I have sensed Renegade willing to follow but I believe he only wanted a lynch not to wagon like DM would. I still keep Ren on townlean and DM on scumlean but I still haven't analyzed past 50 posts or so and I believe a lot of interesting stuff happened there with reads coming in from bystanders.




I agree with you on "discussing scum play is prone to manipulation"

I think it is a cheap scum tactic to discuss scum play.

However I don't see any problem with it as long as you learn to control yourself and your vote. Scum's main objective is to manipulate. Manipulation is as broad as it gets in FM. If we never discuss some stuff or follow meta then scum can play around meta. Thats a vulnerability and is equally prone to manipulation. The same debate can be applied to role hunting. All of this falls under "grey zone" and I will always suspect the guy shouting "PR HUNTING IS EVIL!!!!!!" in the beginning of the game. This is subject to change as the game progresses. I have fallen to this trap in our first game with Ash. Remember how he was calling out people for TPR hunting? I think we have learned a lot from that game.


I do set traps and I keep the information to myself. IF you think I have been scum in this game then I have no choice but believe you are scum or confused townie. I believed you are not confused because Auwt seen through me. MM seen through me and Varcron seen through me. Maybe more did. Maybe Mike is lying about his interactions with me but I still trust him more than others here.


Two people I trusted as town are dead. Do you think I killed them? I think it would be giving me too much credit for making me responsible of their death.

I am just trying to survive while trying to make sure scum doesn't take out any town, including me.



As for the final part where you talk about me suggesting lynch on afk slots, I am tired of explaining myself but I understood how it can be viewed scum after Auwt pointed it out. I wanted to debate this but then realized it is really smoothbrain of me to not realize we are uninformed majority. I was under the impression it would work similar to sc2mod with afk slots usually turning out to be scum lol. I have realized this mistake of mine on D1 no worries.


Also for the smoothbrain part; It wasn't a personal insult and if you felt offended then I apologize. I like to use this term when I play mafia to describe a confused/lost townie.

Okay. I thought you were doing it to guide or advise the town (which I felt was bad for the town if you are scum), not to defend yourself. If you were doing it to defend yourself, then I guess that makes sense. I believed that when one speculates in the public they're doing it for a future push and to manipulate the town, not to defend themselves.

It is progressive if one thinks X is scum, and is right about it. Additionally, some scum players play super distanced from their allies. If you were anything, it was an alpha wolf. Cant exactly die from poison, not likely to be vigilant'ed if you're the town leader, and immune to investigation. I did firmly believe that at least one scum will be very aggressive and try to influence the game and be very active compared to the other scum. I didn't think you were virus though; Virus isn't safe from wolf attack for being a town leader.

I am quite terrible at reading poems or similar creative content, often times I just create my own understanding of them rather than what the author intended. I also didn't realize you were targeting MM and Mike, I felt you were trying to form a town core of sorts and expecting to be attacked by scum for it. Which, in a scum perspective, means any townie attack you is de-facto scum when they're not. This also kind of explains why you were downtown reading MM and Mike in your chart.

Okay, this is probably my biggest failing here. I completely forgot, or didn't learn from, Ash Lael doing that. I just somehow de-facto thought much of power-hunting was terribly bad, but when you raise the first game example this seems to really explain your actions in this paragraph. This isn't to say all power hunting is good -- I still think much of it is bad, but I'll consider this and try to learn not to automatically call someone ((calling someone else out on TPR hunting and that it's bad)) as towny.

I don't think they necessarily saw what you were doing, but I believed they saw your tone and approach to the game as not distinctly scummy. There are things out there that can appear towny, but actually may be secretly scummy. This kinda goes along with my Green paragraph, except I kinda forgot about the whole Ash Lael "calling out TPR hunting" thing. My only guess as to why I didn't "register" or "remember" it is because I still think to this day that my initial question in that game had potential for no harm at all to the TPR's if everyone answered. And you know what? Ash Lael saw through it and attacked me for it in that game so he could frame it as TPR hunting anyways.

You're forgetting that one was killed by mafia and the other by the virus. As for the mafia kill, there are three wolves. The kill could be related to any one of them, or maybe the kill wasn't so much to their benefit but rather someone they thought wouldn't be protected, or would be checked by the sheriff. Its also possible they thought he was healer, but I don't think there was enough information for them to know that.

We all make mistakes. This was more of a side-note or reason, and not a primary thing as to why I thought you were scum.

As for the "smoothbrain" comment, I've generally found in my experience that unpleasant people have used it to try and insult others (because it says X is dumb, or implies it). I wasn't actually offended, because it seemed out-of-place with the rest of your activity in the thread.

I hope this is resolved?

I think I addressed everything, as well as bakermir addressing everything I've said (at least the important stuff).

[Frinckles]

He called himself a smooth-brain at one point I believe. I don't think he meant it maliciously. Just trendy zoomer-speak.

[Frinckles]

@Dark Magician have you managed to track down anything about MM's poisoning of note? MM was more against Martin from my observations.

[MartinGG99]

He called himself a smooth-brain at one point I believe. I don't think he meant it maliciously. Just trendy zoomer-speak.

Yeah I'm kinda out of touch with knowing what insults are used today. I've abandoned social media for the most part in the last 6 months and I've not played SC2 -Mafia- in a long while.

Last time I heard it was some teammate in World Of Warships who somehow ran into my ship's torpedoes when they were launched like 7 kilometres away in a direction not towards my temmates, so they had like a minute in-game to see it coming (and they they were runnning into them) but never did.

In the ensuing one-person-chaos over this one-person's-fault betrayal they called me monkey, smoothbrain, etc.

I'm preety secluded otherwise.

[Dark Magician]

When I posted that, I didn't even see any mention of you claiming :P it was just my general advice about the setup. Also, "having a day of reads" doesn't equal "saying that every single post is AI and immediatly significant on D1", because that's not true lol. D1 posts become extremely interesting when you look at them through the lens of around D3, because usually people have claimed on D3 and "sides" have formed; looking at D1 allows you to compare D1 behaviors with current day behavior.

Also, I said you were potentially trying to change the meta, i.e. the site's meta, not your personal meta. So no, that isn't "crap".

Hardclaiming "not X" is... questionable? I guess it allows for some WIFOM, and I don't even really oppose it.

However, this is OMGUS. The only reason for which you could want to lynch me is because I scumread you. I'm happy with my vote atm. Also, I haven't fully read the thread but Bakermir looked rather good to me.

I’m thinking Mike’s probably Virus as I believe Virus would have had to choose their target N1.

[Dark Magician]

Totally changing a way you are acting is very difficult. Even if you try to, some habits or inconsistencies would show up.
Ignoring previous games isn't possible for me, sorry.
There are so much infos considering everyone's behaviour I gathered playing with all of you, that I have to use those kind of arguments and reasoning



The fact is not to agree or not with me. Many investigative roles can be lured into nothing because of the Omega Wolf hiding the Alpha one or so on.



There is no inconsistency here from my pov. To clarify, if you want a quick early D1 vote, you are most likely playing against Town because you want to be at night so that there is not much discussion.

And by the way, you are making me laugh each time you put yourself in your read list XD

Here’s some interaction between Zedus and Auwt.

[Frinckles]

Kinda spicy at face value ngl.

[Dark Magician]

I will do some ISO meanwhile.



That's Martin's fault for voting me instead of someone who exposed him:






He is asking Zedus his opinion on Martin in order to find a middle ground. I find this progressive:






Zedus explaining why he stopped talking with Ren and Martin and very irritated by DM:





There is one post there where Frinckles is kinda defensive of Martin which is understandable seeing DM did really poke hard there.

But then both Frinckles and Martin reacted to my entrance. At this point i was townreading Frinckles and seen Martin as possible scum buddying me into what's going on. I decided to bring a new perspective here and go after Mike.



Especially this post made me suspect Martin:



Here Martin admits he didn't like being in this position as scum where one wagon would end his scum mate and other wagon would kill a townie.

I don't like him admitting all of this then looking at his vote on me now. Especially when I tried to poke him he gives me the following response:




He doesn't like me asking the question essentially similar to what DM did but worded differently.

I wanted to see the things from DM's eyes here and also Martin's.

This is where I was convinced that I should look elsewhere for the time being because I believed Martin could be potentially town and putting more pressure on him would result in town losing a valuable member.


But later down I find the following:



Martin claims PR hunting is not scummy.Well, make up your mind Martin. DM called you out on that.
Mike was either setting up a trap for scum in which you fell for OR you are seeing him as Alpha Wolf. Considering Martin's vote on me and placing Mike on town way after this post, I believe Martin was fencesitting in this post





DM is on his Town list and quite high.. yet he was exposed + threatened by DM.

WHAT THE HELL?


"Those with lower post counts are more subject to change" and thats why Frinckles is on Martin's TOP 3 right? Or is it because they are teamed?




This is where DM starts to soften back with Martin, right after Frinckles started a train and Martin started shouting my name. Before this only Martin was trying to soften with DM while everyone else believed DM is scum. MM voted DM up for example. Zedus sees DM as scum too and voted up before. I think everything is crystal clear they have tried to bus each other. If they didn't then call me a tinfoil hat idiot.

There is still this small chance of DM being hunter but otherwise he is scum.

There is no chance for Martin to be town in my eyes. He have been exposed as a wolf and if he claims TPR I will never trust him. He has been contradicting himself really bad in this.

I want to go back to this post real quick.
@bakermir
Why am I only able to be Hunter?

[Dark Magician]

Also if you believe I’m scum buddies with Martin yet Zedus flips Red do you think I was bussing both my buddies or would your opinion change at that point?

[Dark Magician]

MM. was to active and bright to much attention to himself to be virus. MM is not a newb he would know to keep low key if he was virus. If anything MM is prob Mafia.

Yeah I’m honestly getting more and more vibes that Mike is the Virus here.
If MM flips Red and we yeet Zedus/Martin to Red I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t just Yeet Mike tomorrow because there’s a good chance they flip Virus.

[Dark Magician]

ROFLOL I was thinking the exact same thing ;p

Blink if I was wolf I would NEVER NEVER give you town cred.

Notice how he says “Wolf” instead of “Scum”
Yep, pretty sure Mike is Virus.

[Frinckles]

Something was pinging me about Mike but I was more concerned with him being mafia at the time.

[Frinckles]

Like I moved him from my lowest townread to my lowest null read and back 3 times. X.x

[MartinGG99]

I was reviewing the day so far, and I came across this really weird interaction (or series of posts):

Spoiler : quotes :

My guess is the Virus was SR’ed by MM.

100% agree with you on this

We need to see MM's reads to find virus assuming he was scumread by MM

My reads list so far:

Town:
Martin
Bakermir
Mike
Varcron (Townlocked)
Marshmallow Marshall
blinkskater

Townish
GOOFY Renegade
Frinkles

Null:
Gyrlander (I literally cannot read him for the life of me rn, he'll change later probably)

Scumlean:
Mesk

Scum:
Zedus

Knowing my read lists I likely forgot someone, know that early game all reads are subject to change as some probably will over the next day.

@Varcron

You forgot Dark Magician.

DM sits in the town category, thank you.

Now it may not look weird at first, but I would like for you to read the following quote below THEN re-read the above spoiler. Does anybody see what I'm getting at?

Spoiler : This makes it weird :

I expect that Virus will play like a townie until the Mafia isn't a threat anymore. We should hunt for Mafia first and then work on lynching the Virus.

I like the slightly paranoid touch of this post. I also like the "potential TvT" feeling Zedus is expressing here.

Also, I'm a bit lost about Varcron's posts here...


Here's my list of reads. Those who aren't in it are part of the Null Line (in other words, I haven't made my mind on them yet, or they haven't posted yet).

Mike & Bakermir. These two look like TvT.

Zedus. Seems to be honest, points out lies/untrue things, doing what a townie should do on D1. This read isn't based on anything strong, though, and could very well change when more informations come in.


---___---___--- The Null Line ---___---___---


Auwt. Very slightly scummy when he addressed the TPR-hunting (inconsistencies in his posts), didn't address me when I asked him to clarify his thoughts on the matter.

Mesk514. Exists. Little discussion on game-related topics despite the presence of such topics in the thread (such as the Mike-Bakermir interaction discussion). Seems to be slightly off her meta (slightly unsure about that one though).

Dark Magician. Started the game with TPR-hunting. I haven't noticed anything positive from them, so they're sitting at the bottom of my list even though I hope to find a better lynch than that.

So what I'm seeing is:

1. Dark Magician immediately suggests that MM must've scum read the virus. But MM never really scum read Mike (the possible virus as of the last few posts in this thread), and even let go of the accusation by Town reading Mike.

2. Varcron says (or implies) he'll look into it. But it appears he never does because...

3. Dark Magician is forgotten on Varcron's reads list but is later added as Town.

I have no clear clue as to what to make of this. For #1, I want to instinctively suspect a possible Virus Dark Magican, but then #2 and #3 makes me wonder why Varcron never looked into it and suspect Dark Magician.

It doesn't make sense to me. Its all weird.

[MartinGG99]

1. Dark Magician immediately suggests that MM must've scum read the virus. But MM never really scum read Mike (the possible virus as of the last few posts in this thread), and even let go of the accusation by Town reading Mike. Not to mention, MM had Dark Magician as their biggest Scum read, relatively speaking.

Editing by way of post/quote. The correction/edit appears in the quote.

[MartinGG99]

I'm spending way too much time thinking about this. Anyways gtg for the next 10 hours or so.

[Varcron]

I was reviewing the day so far, and I came across this really weird interaction (or series of posts):

Spoiler : quotes :

Now it may not look weird at first, but I would like for you to read the following quote below THEN re-read the above spoiler. Does anybody see what I'm getting at?

Spoiler : This makes it weird :

So what I'm seeing is:

1. Dark Magician immediately suggests that MM must've scum read the virus. But MM never really scum read Mike (the possible virus as of the last few posts in this thread), and even let go of the accusation by Town reading Mike.

2. Varcron says (or implies) he'll look into it. But it appears he never does because...

3. Dark Magician is forgotten on Varcron's reads list but is later added as Town.

I have no clear clue as to what to make of this. For #1, I want to instinctively suspect a possible Virus Dark Magican, but then #2 and #3 makes me wonder why Varcron never looked into it and suspect Dark Magician.

It doesn't make sense to me. Its all weird.

I haven't got around to looking into it, I will once I get the time and am not dead tired.

[Varcron]

What made you forget about me?
What makes you put me in Town Reads and where am I in your town reads?

I meant to place you in the list itself however forgot while I was double checking to make sure I had not forgotten anyone.

[Varcron]

Notice how he says “Wolf” instead of “Scum”
Yep, pretty sure Mike is Virus.

Yeah I started to notice Mike's wording of stuff too, my read on him has altered to scumlean over town

Or viruslean because purple

[Zedus]

Good morning.

You used "Goofy" name a lot for dumb actions. I think you need to use "Dory" name also, because memory of goldfish is the real town problem. Let me refresh your memory before I will start re-read all Auwt's posts, as I said yesterday evening.

Mike & Bakermir. These two look like TvT.

Zedus. Seems to be honest, points out lies/untrue things, doing what a townie should do on D1. This read isn't based on anything strong, though, and could very well change when more informations come in.


---___---___--- The Null Line ---___---___---


Auwt. Very slightly scummy when he addressed the TPR-hunting (inconsistencies in his posts), didn't address me when I asked him to clarify his thoughts on the matter.

Mesk514. Exists. Little discussion on game-related topics despite the presence of such topics in the thread (such as the Mike-Bakermir interaction discussion). Seems to be slightly off her meta (slightly unsure about that one though).

Dark Magician. Started the game with TPR-hunting. I haven't noticed anything positive from them, so they're sitting at the bottom of my list even though I hope to find a better lynch than that.

What? That's not what I said lmao.

I'm talking about Mike, not you TPR-hunting... This post almost looks too bad to be bad, because you're basically asking us to stop discussing our scumread on you based on a deformation of my words. Hmm.

-vote Dark Magician

MM townreads Mike, Bakermir and Zedus.
MM scumreads Dark Magician (and caught him in a lie also)
MM voted Dark Magician d1.

Now he is dead.

Bakermir also played a town game where his actions fit quite well the way he is playing right now.
That is why I also believe he is some sort of a townie therefore I was willing him to unvote, which he did.
I do not want to see an early Town vs Town D1 train lynch, scums will just have to jump in this whenever they want at the best timing.
Mike's defense was really decent and the way he replied at bakermir, didnt slip any scum smell to me.

Zedus is playing his usual Citizen game nah?
I was scared at first for a possible Renegade/Zedus scum team but it is not very likely at all.
Zedus' recent posts looked like his usual Town playstyle.
Might be faking, I do not know.

It will go here for now.

-vote Dark Magician

Auwt townreads Mike, Bakermir and Zedus. Same as MM.
MM scumreads Dark Magician.
MM voted Dark Magician d1.

Now he is dead.


Renegade was a bit passive. He was kinda trusted by Auwt, 100% trusted by me (and still trusted now). But he did at least one right thing d1.

-vote Dark Magician

I have no logical answer why we don't need to vote Bakermir now. But I have some feeling that he acts the same way as me in previous long game, as cornered townie. I have 2 ppl in my strong scum list: Barkermir and Dark Magician. Only 2 options for me:
1. vote DM
2. don't vote

Now I will

-vote Dark Magician

I "townread" Auwt, Mike and Renegade. Well, not Bakermir, like previous already killed guys.
And locked Dark Magician as scum (and he is).


Now he is pushing this dumb "Martin+Zedus" fake connection, based only on one post, comes from previous game we had TvT interraction. But he is not dumb, he us just scum. His game presence is still low, his acts was only TPR hunting and some "readlist" with no any explanation, probably just filled based on other's popular thoughts, but the real target of this list is destroy probably town teamup. He was silent at d2 start until others start topic around Marting vs Bakermir and other shit, because he knows that town has Dory's memory, and the main scum of d1 will be just forgotten. Now he start to act then MM dies with... this bullshit "Martin+Zedus" again.

2 of 4 ppl voted him are dead, that means he can be both virus and mafia, but most likely mafia.
Strongest probably town team up is dying one by one. Me, Renegade and Mike left. Who you think he will attack now?
His mafia friends will follow this. But if he is virus, mafia can spread votes between me, Renegade and probably Mike and Martin. Still not sure about Martin, he did some scummy things, but now this "Martin vs Bakermir" action looks more and more like TvT for me(I am not ready to lock it, until I will re-read Auwt's posts), and Dory just forgot who is real scum is. I am ready to remove Bakermir from my scum list (even after he ignored my question for him, but I still waiting for answer) and do the only right thing we doesn't did d1.

-vote Dark Magician

If DM flips mafia, we will find his friends, not by your lovely "reads", but by game mechanics and vote maps. Because your reading is just a sort of guessing, nothing more, and mechanics and vote maps works.
If DM flips vurus, sorry, MM, we must push him harder d1. Btw now I am sure MM is town, I had theory he is virus, but he is 100% not mafia.
If DM flops town... Lol, no, he will not.

Now I am back to re-read Auwt's post, and also MM's post now. Will be back soon.

[Zedus]

Also I shoud notice that Martin does not vote DM d1, then town spread votes between DM and Bakermir. So my correction for probably mafia plan is that if Martin is mafia, then their plan is lynch me, and after I flip town DM will say "oh, sorry, I was wrong about Martin+Zedus team, well, you will forget it anyway, Dory, who cares".
Wake up, town. You realy forgot everything from d1?

[blinkskater]

Ok so something that i'd like to add in here. The previous two times that this game has been run there have been 5 citizens. A little bit of host meta and host experience balancing games i am going to say the percentage is pretty high we are dealing with a 5 Citizen game.

This being said i believe we've had 3 hard cit claims so far. Mesk, baker, mike. If marsh flips cit here due to the fact that 3 players have already claimed Cit, come day 3 I think a mass role claim may be in order for our best chance to essentially solve the game from a mechanical standpoint. We also should have a Vigi and wolf kill during the night which will further that poe along nicely imo. Hopefully wolves hit a citizen.

I'd also lile to state i believe Mesk and Mike to be actual citizens at this present time. Mesk moreso then mike. I feel lile baker deserves the benefit of the doubt today at least because well he's put in the work for it at least today.

[Zedus]

Lol, funny thing: he pushing this bullshit "Martin+Zedus" team, having Marting in his town list and only me in scum...
Looks like he can't even forge something with attention.

[blinkskater]

Why is MM 100% town in your eyes Zedus?

[blinkskater]

If you believe solely in mechanics and voting, you should probally check where and who the other votes went to while DM had those people voting him.