Throws tantrum over something happening on another site
Throws tantrum and takes his ball home when people disagree with him
Classic
Throws tantrum over something happening on another site
Throws tantrum and takes his ball home when people disagree with him
Classic
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
It's mental gymnastics to claim that throwing criticism at someone for using a certain word over another is suppressing their free speech? Isn't that exactly what your own argument is?
I don't personally care which word he uses, it's his right as the creator and if he feels like he wants to use a certain word to be kinder to others then so be it. The only pressuring I see is coming from opponents like you who want him to use a specific word against his will.
"If I was a jewish person, I wouldn't feel bad if we used the word gassed instead of lynch. There are other times in history where gassing has been done outside of Germany 1940s". (To be clear, I don't agree with this logic, now am I advocating for the word gassed to be used. I'm just demonstrating how this doesn't work.)
I get why the americans here don't associate lynchings with horrible black killings in the south, and instead associate it to a way to remove someone from the mafia game. They learned the game in middle school so they learned to associate that word first. Then they learned about Jim Crow. American schools aren't too keen to show the attrocities that historical America has committed. But imagine a scenario where we did teach that to our kids. It'd be fucking weird to use lynchings as a word in mafia at that point. Either the game wouldn't have been played, or another word would be used.
Just because you don't see how lynch could be racial in another country (that you don't live in), doesn't mean it doesn't have connotations.
But. I'll admit, "lynch" doesn't hold a strong connotation for me, as I'm not black and didn't grow up with these connotations. I am willing to have the empathy to see that it could cause discomfort for others in a game.
Mafia isn't supposed to be about how the person dies, it's supposed to be about social deduction.
Like, what if our word here was "fucked", and we were all used to it. And someone came to our site saying that's weird, and we had to tell them "oh no! we don't mean literal fucking, we just mean that they're out of the game".
And even if I would concede the point that it's not racial, there's violent aspect to the word "lynch". Eliminated, executed, voted out, are all equivalent. And on the site here it's common enough to say "lets vote for x" instead of "lets lynch x" although the latter is also said.
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
Can we please change lynched to fucked? This is the best suggestion yet Voss and I won't be satisfied until everyone uses it
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
My goal here isn't to get anyone to stop using the word lynch in their own language. My problem here is that freedom of speech is being perverted to belittle and attack another site's right to express themselves the way they want, for whatever reason they want. And there are assumptions that are being made about that staff's intentions that are pure speculation.
If anything, this thread(and specifically this post) has shown that Sc2mafia would rather make a point to be less inclusive than to have a meaningful conversation on the pros and cons of their decision.
We will never know how many people we turn away because of our word lynch. However, a legitimate devil's advocate to this would be that the number is not significant, and there are other areas that we can improve to make sc2mafia a more inclusive community. That number is almost certainly not zero though.
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...the-word-lynch
the thread owner, Amrock, is a person of color, and while he's not staff, he's a big community pillar in MU. He even liked narrator and organizes a bunch of games on MU. However, when there were racist slurs being used by people in games he was hosting in the narrator discord channel, he politely said that he didn't want to be a part of the narrator community, because I was too slow to act. And when he left, he didn't just take himself. The people that he brought weren't as interested in playing in narrator because he wasn't organizing them.
So that there is an actual player cost of not being inclusive. Fuck him right? Fuck someone else's feelings. I should rather let someone that was organizing community narrator games daily go, and have my misplaced sense of freedom of speech.
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
I want to thank @Voss for helping me see things this way. I didn't really care about the word and it's use on sc2mafia, but now I am #TeamFucked. Let's replace the word here too.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
I prefer yeeted, so that we can appeal to the younger generation.
We should have a poll to decide which word is best
Fucked is good
yeeted is semi-okay
Pew pew pew is pretty awesome
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
Fuck I just got schooled
Also can "Schooled" be an option?
What about the godfather has a list of 4-5 words and randomly chooses one
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Going with the theme of suppression of free speech, I propose we change "lynched" to "cancelled"
Damn that one's pretty good
"deathworlds has been cancelled! Stand by for (maybe, if the host isn't terrible) the host's day end post and review!"
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
i thought about proposing "disappeared" but that's spooky as fuck.
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
This community is inclusive as fuck. It’s an online community and nobody gives a hoot about anyone else’s skin colour, group allegiance or any other charactetistic. SC2Mafia does not need to be more inclusive than it already is. And if people get turned away because of an innocuous word, that’s on them, not on us.
Nobody is being belittled or attacked here. Everyone is acting like I want their freedom of speech stifled; I don’t give a shit what word they use; again, the issue is the attitude that led to the change in the first place, not the action. The action itself is meaningless.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
I’ve played mafia for a very long time and literally not a single time have I heard or seen anyone use the term lynch in a racist way. You don’t even get this in the mod, with its visual executions and the ability to pick black ‘skins’ or whatever that customization option is called.
theres no reason for people to feel offended at this word. if it’s so racist, why has it literally taken ~10 years for something to be done about it? this was not a serious topic of discussion a year ago, much less somebting that people would’ve pushed through. the only reason this change happened was because of the george Floyd protests/riots.
yes, there’s indeed a violent aspect to it, but you know what? this is a game about deceiving others, lynching, manipulation, and killing people at night. if people are so thin skinned as not to be able to come to terms with that, maybe they’re better off not playing this game.
The problem is that I *am* Jewish; its not a hypothetical. And I’m telling you that if the word we used was ‘gassed’ I literally wouldn’t give a shit.
You literally want to punish any type of emotional mafia play, such as insinuating a player's intelligence is not up to speed to comprehend current events, so as not to drive people away from the site. Where's this "get some thicker skin" attitude there?
So do you want to retain people or do you not care, which is it
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
I really, really think that in spite of all of our shortcomings, SC2Mafia is doing much better than most other sites when it comes to the general culture.
Last edited by ; July 27th, 2020 at 04:44 PM.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
So much name calling from the person who apparently wants everyone to feel welcome
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
Seeing as I said some less than nice things in this thread, I’ve deleted my own posts as one directly hurt site integrity. I apologize for this and I will refrain from posting the problematic things I’ve posted in the future.
No, I still think it’s ridiculous and even dishonest to change the word lynch, but that’s a different issue.
let's break this down.
I'm glad you haven't had negative racial experiences against you, but that's not the case with everyone in the world. Just because you haven't had them doesn't mean others have not. And just because you haven't had them, doesn't mean their experiences should be invalidated.
let me correct this for you:
"i don't care about the reasons that other people might feel offended with this word because i've never been affected by it."
about 170 years ago one could have used similar logic for lynching black. "ten years ago it was ok to lynch people! why do anything about it now!!" this argument is ridiculous for not one but two reasons. using the word "lynch" in a game is not the same as murdering black people. but it's also ridiculous because just because we did something 10 years ago, doesn't mean it's still ok to do it now.
seems like you're invalidating the george floyd protests by calling them riots. sure there were some riots, but what does rioting have to do with "lynch" on the mu site.
protests sure. the protests have once again put police killings (some could call it lynchings) back in the forefront of the american spotlight.
and you're actually absolutely right that the reactionto george floyd's murder caused this change. Amrock says as much in his thread, the thread that the MU community leaders eludes to as much.
i don't think that invalidates the sentiment though.
this could be it's own topic all together, but parts of this upcoming rant are related to what we're tlaking about here.
personally, i'm not a huge fan of the role play that goes on in mafia. i actually watched a game of DnD the other day and now that I actually know what it is, I would never play it myself. I only like as much flavor as i need to understand the mechanics of the game, the mechanics that make things easy to explain. take arsonist for example. it's easier to explain that someone is dousing someone with something flammable, gasoline, and at some later point in time, everyone doused will die. and that people can lie about being doused, and that we don't know when it's optimal for the arsonist to blow everyone up.
and back to your point, yes the game is about deceiving others, manipulation, but i don't really want to dwell on the fact that we're killing people. they're just out of the game, and it's up to their teammates to win it all for them. i don't want to dwell on the fact that people are being killed by the mafia (by the way those killings are brutal), or lynchings (because those are also brutal). i don't want to role play that stuff. just focus on the lies and trickery and social deduction.
and i also find that i can sell this game to other older people when i focus less on the role play, and more on the social deduction aspects.
and that's one of my main points here. it's stupid to get worked over some tradition that might hurt others and it's stupid to not give a fuck about them. and it's stupid to generalize that these people would be not fun to play with. it's stereotypical nonsense.
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
I'm also curious on how a word change is dishonest
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
Ganelon, I have, countless times witnessed people on the mod picking racist names and then spamming to lynch the black people. Or the Jews. Really whatever the topic of the month is.
Personally, having been around mafia enough I am desensitized to the word. And even outside of mafia, I’d agree the degeneracy of the Internet spamming noose emojis everywhere makes it seem pretty innocuous.
But to the average person who has no clue wtf a “Pepe” is, the word is a pretty dark one. Voss highlighted this in his post about his narrator game.
As a developer, if I have the choice to hardcode “lynched” or “eliminated” and one of those two scares users away, it’s frankly a no-brainer.
Part of the basis of this thread is you seem to think MU only changed it because people forced them to? Can you provide a reference for that?
Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?
This is hypocrisy 101.
It doesn’t matter, right? So why are you upset about it?
...is it the other kind of “doesn’t matter” where it does matter to you?
1. One site’s choice to change their vocabulary is their choice. It doesn’t effect you in literally any way. Why do you care? Why are you outraged?
2. Some people DO get offended by the historical context of the word “lynch”. Ok, go them. I don’t care, they do care... why should I be an asshole and continue to use the word if it makes them uncomfortable? Freedom of speech? Just because you CAN say something doesn’t mean you SHOULD say it.
3. I don’t know if you’ve really recognized this... but you are someone who comes across as offensive to some people. I’m very confused as to why you are so sensitive about the topic freedom of speech. You literally got banned from another community for calling someone retarded after they asked you not to call people retarded. Your response was “that’s retarded”. Why is it hard for you to honor that request? This is a genuine question coming from someone who is a “people pleaser”.
I’d also like to point out that both in their bot and ours, some developer literally wrote “lynched” into the code. It’s hardcoded to say that word. I’m not sure who originally created the votecounter script (oops?) but that person had to manually write the part “has been lynched.”
Considering the creator is potentially liable for any results of his code, IMO the most important rights here are the developer’s. IMO he can change his code to whatever he wants and nobody else can claim that he’s somehow infringing on their rights.
Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?
"If someone is offended by a word that's their problem, not yours"
Actually no, it's your problem if you aren't trying to be an antisocial edgelord. When you form social relationships with people you learn that some people have different sensitivities to topics because of their upbringing or personal experiences. Some terms might be racially charged, some people might have uncomfortable memories associated with certain things. You can absolutely disregard other people's feelings, and pretend it's their problem. But the consequences of doing so are your problem.
Your entire argument is about criticizing and punishing someone exercising their free speech by using a word to be kinder to others, because you think that you shouldn't be kind to those people because of their politics, and you're worried about them "winning" or whatever the fuck. That's really all it boils down to. Personally, I'd rather just be good to people when it doesn't inconvenience me. I don't understand why it's so unpalatable to not be an asshole to other people.
FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
FM XXI: USA (Escort)
FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)
1. It doesn’t affect me directly - don’t you see? Everyone’s is missing the point here. It’s jot the word change that pisses me off. I wouldn’t give a shit if they started calling it execution, outvoting, election it anything else. My problem is the underlying social attitude that led to it being even considered. And, I WILL continue to use that word. It’s impossible to predict what someone else will feel offended by; in not going to start policing my speech just because someone is displeased with a neutral word.
2. That’s their problem. If they do get offended, they should sort themselves out and stop being so sensitive. You’re not being an asshole by using a word. They’re being the asshole by requesting you use a different word that literally means the same thing and then claim you to be a racist who hates people for not complying with their request.
3. I’ve already said I’m kind of a cunt and I don’t really care all that much about my public image. I care about being right, and acting that way. Much more important than being nice. If you’re right, people cannot assail you unjustly. Never tell lies, and I don’t. As for me getting banned... that site banned blink for toxicity but didn’t ban MANY other players who either egged blink on or were toxic towards him. I would get myself banned from that website again, I don’t play with toxic smug weenies. They’re he worst kind to play with. And the problem is that in my view, these people are the eaxact same people as the ones pushing to change the word lynch to execute. Or the word retarded. I tar them with the same brush.
unrelated, but if anyone else is a programmer here/studying programming, I borrowed the term ‘smug weenie’ from ‘smug lisp weenie’. I tar the people stealth is referring to and their ilk with the same brush as the smug lisp weenies.
Jesus that rant was fat
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
For the record, I actually don’t know where you are coming from suggesting that changing the word lynch to execute would help with inclusivity. Many long-standing players with views similar to my own were probably displeased with MU’s move. I would imagine some of them even left. And it’s jot the only thing MU has done. They’re also changing the logo (because it has a noose in it), and there’s been discussion on banning the word AIDS (as a curse word). There’s many things happening on that website, the lynch debacle is simply the most glamorous one.
Apoc, an FM staff member there was quite displeased with this move, too.
If you're going to quit a site over a word change... how was it that you put it?
Get some thicker skin. That's a pretty pathetic excuse to quit a site over lmaoif people are so thin skinned as not to be able to come to terms with that, maybe they’re better off not playing this game.
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
let’s say I had to pick between group A and B.
Group A: Lynch must stay! Else we lose our free speech!
Group B: lynch offends me! remove it!
The ideal situation is option C: a word that neither party can whine about. And that’s all MU did. So I still don’t understand your rage. I’m about 99% to doing the same on our site because I still can’t see a “why not?”, and it would take legit 5 seconds to change
Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?