Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism - Page 10
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  1. ISO #451
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Of course I make that distinction. A Russian invader isn’t a part of your country. There are no cultural bonds between Russians and Americans (or rather, they do exist but they are very weak). Meanwhile, California’s history more or less begins with the US. They are a part of the US, speak the language, are considered to be American culturally, and so on. All these things, when combined, generally make one a lot less willing to treat a compatriot the same way as a foreigner, even when hostile.

  2. ISO #452

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    I don't get why anyone says that the fact that the united states government didn't recognize the Confederacy matters at all. If a state rebelled from it's motherland and the motherland recognized it as a legitimate government, why the hell would they fight? the motherland already said "hmm yes this piece of land has an autonomous government" by recognizing it, why would it try to impose its will if it recognized the will of the state that spawned from it?
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    At least Mesk has lewdy lefty and raunchy righty. You're not even Canadian.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM-Shocked Kirby Face View Post
    Deathworlds is simply better than us at this game. Don't kill them for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    fucketh me in the ass

  3. ISO #453
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by deathworlds View Post
    Yes I do see the Confederacy as bad partly because they were a rebel state from the first democratic state, they had a good deal going on and decided to fuck it up for everyone involved.



    Well A.) I'd never have to worry about that in the first place because I have enough excuses to avoid conscription, plus we'd never go to war with another state in the modern world because it's likely that every single one of them would be a literal nuclear state if it seceded.
    B.) I love how ya tryta make a subtle difference between californians "soldiers" and russian "invaders" as if there's any difference between the two peoples intrinsically.
    C.) This is clearly a strawman argument. Of course it's easier to talk about a rebel state that existed for less than a quarter of my life over a hundred years ago than a hypothetical in the modern world.
    It isn’t a straw man. As I see it there’s no distinction between the two; they’re both American.

  4. ISO #454

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Of course I make that distinction. A Russian invader isn’t a part of your country. There are no cultural bonds between Russians and Americans (or rather, they do exist but they are very weak). Meanwhile, California’s history more or less begins with the US. They are a part of the US, speak the language, are considered to be American culturally, and so on. All these things, when combined, generally make one a lot less willing to treat a compatriot the same way as a foreigner, even when hostile.
    I try to treat people equally regardless of where they came from. I judge people based off how they treat others, if ya treat other people like shit, then ya a bad lad, otherwise, you're probably cool in my books. "Culture" has nothing to do with it unless your culture says "hmm yes, slavery is good" and you're totally cool with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    At least Mesk has lewdy lefty and raunchy righty. You're not even Canadian.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM-Shocked Kirby Face View Post
    Deathworlds is simply better than us at this game. Don't kill them for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    fucketh me in the ass

  5. ISO #455

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    It isn’t a straw man. As I see it there’s no distinction between the two; they’re both American.
    Citizens in the Confederacy aren't Americans, they're confederates. They literally rebelled from the country that made them American
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    At least Mesk has lewdy lefty and raunchy righty. You're not even Canadian.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM-Shocked Kirby Face View Post
    Deathworlds is simply better than us at this game. Don't kill them for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    fucketh me in the ass

  6. ISO #456
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    So to you is nationality more about citizenship than cultural background?

  7. ISO #457

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Of course not, but I don’t see the Confederate as being ‘oppressed’ by the north. On the contrary, they were highly autonomous (as states are wont to be), and were allowed to keep slavery as an institution; they were represented in Congress, and had the right to participate in presidential elections. The only thing they weren’t allowed to do is leave.
    B U T T H A T ' S T H E M O S T I M P O R T A N T T H I N G .
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  8. ISO #458
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    B U T T H A T ' S T H E M O S T I M P O R T A N T T H I N G .
    Pretty much every administrative division and/or state is oppressed then.

  9. ISO #459

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Pretty much every administrative division and/or state is oppressed then.
    ...

    YES
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  10. ISO #460
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    ...

    YES
    Individuals are allowed to leave, allowed to move from state to state or even to leave the supranational region entirely. The rights of the individual are more important than the rights of the states in my view, and the individual was most certainly not oppressed in the South; at least, not the ones who voted for secession.

  11. ISO #461

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Individuals are allowed to leave, allowed to move from state to state or even to leave the supranational region entirely. The rights of the individual are more important than the rights of the states in my view, and the individual was most certainly not oppressed in the South; at least, not the ones who voted for secession.
    I mean, people associate "oppressed" with much more hardcore shit. I'd rather use the phrase "overly authoritarian", or something to that effect. But that doesn't fundamentally change the point.

    That said, there were lots of actually-oppressive governments that were happy for you to fuck off if you didn't like how they handled their shit. That's not really fair to expect people to abandon their homeland for what they should be entitled to and is thus also besides the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  12. ISO #462
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    I don’t really see that as oppression. Some degree of authority is necessary. A country can’t survive if its constituent parts can leave whenever they want. It makes for a chaotic environment. The other issue is that it would be quite complex a matter, too. The constituent part could then blackmail the federal government into doing something they wanted threatening to leave if they didn’t get what they wanted. Also, the state could then just leave if the Union decided to go to war with a neighbor and thus be spared from the consequences resulting from that, and could even sign a separate treaty with the offending nation, only to rejoin once hostilities ended. Some degree of cohesion is important.

    Look at the early US. It was essentially a confederation. The national government was so weak they basically couldn’t collect taxes unless the individual states agreed to, and they didn’t really have a federal standing army either.
    Last edited by ; June 28th, 2020 at 05:19 AM.

  13. ISO #463

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    I don’t really see that as oppression. Some degree of authority is necessary.
    Imagine how much less incentivized the central government is to look after the interests of their minority states when all they can do is try to swing their minority voting power. In all fairness, I believe the electoral college is deliberately designed to give disproportionate weight to the south, but the conversation seems to have become more general anyway. Furthermore, autonomy is never a guaranteed blessing if the central government maintains absolute authority. Just look at what happened in Jammu and Kashmir.

    Again, I'd rather get away from the word "oppression" because that conjures up rather dramatic images. I dunno, maybe it'd be more productive to start with you clarifying how you distinguish a "declaration of independence" from a "failed rebellion". Does the state have to receive a certain degree of mistreatment from the central government before it's permitted to think about independence? How do you determine how much mistreatment is enough?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  14. ISO #464

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    I don’t really see that as oppression. Some degree of authority is necessary. A country can’t survive if its constituent parts can leave whenever they want. It makes for a chaotic environment. The other issue is that it would be quite complex a matter, too. The constituent part could then blackmail the federal government into doing something they wanted threatening to leave if they didn’t get what they wanted. Also, the state could then just leave if the Union decided to go to war with a neighbor and thus be spared from the consequences resulting from that, and could even sign a separate treaty with the offending nation, only to rejoin once hostilities ended. Some degree of cohesion is important.

    Look at the early US. It was essentially a confederation. The national government was so weak they basically couldn’t collect taxes unless the individual states agreed to, and they didn’t really have a federal standing army either.
    As I said, if they could check in or check out whenever they like that'd be a problem too. But you're kind of misinterpreting me. I gave my own country as an example of a system closer to "fair".
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  15. ISO #465

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    So to you is nationality more about citizenship than cultural background?
    In this context I'm referring explicitly to citizenship, obviously it's more complicated than that
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    At least Mesk has lewdy lefty and raunchy righty. You're not even Canadian.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM-Shocked Kirby Face View Post
    Deathworlds is simply better than us at this game. Don't kill them for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    fucketh me in the ass

  16. ISO #466

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    B U T T H A T ' S T H E M O S T I M P O R T A N T T H I N G .
    Nah the most important thing is whether the CITIZENS can leave or not.
    Having a huge piece of land just fucking off is a huge deal, and totally different than what I think you're implying
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    At least Mesk has lewdy lefty and raunchy righty. You're not even Canadian.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM-Shocked Kirby Face View Post
    Deathworlds is simply better than us at this game. Don't kill them for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    fucketh me in the ass

  17. ISO #467
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    I do think that certain governments can be oppressine and that absolute authority isn’t good - it quickly leads to tyranny, which is why I think that federations are the best form of government.

    I guess the distinction for me is primarily threefold.
    a) Would the state fare better if it were independent?
    b) Are fundamental freedoms being infringed upon?
    c) Are the differences (cultural, economic, social) between the nation as a whole (or even the ‘core’ of the nation) and the state so significant that continued cooperation is either impossible or extremely difficult?

    I don’t really know how to separate them, like you’ve said. It is definitely important to figure out where to draw the line, I’m not saying states should never secede. I’m saying that generally they shouldn’t, and that id support a central government’s attempts to restore order (not with the full extent of their power: like I said, I find what the Union did in the South reprehensible).

    Since it’s kind of hard for me to figure out where the line is exactly, I’ll just give you some examples. I think that the Baltic states and Finland declaring their independence from the Russian Empire right before the Russian Revolution was totally justified. The Russian Empire had adopted a policy of Russification in many of their conquered territories (like Poland), and that independence was necessary for these cultures to survive. Likewise, I think the decolonization process at the end of the Second World War was a good thing, the various indigenous cultures were far too dissimilar from European culture for Europe to figure out what to do with them. I do think that more effort should’ve been put into helping them than Europe did, and I think colonialism wasn’t completely bad because it exposed many of these cultures to Western civilization and initiated, at least a surface-level transformation of these societies along Western lines.

    One example where I think secession isn’t warranted would probably be modern day Scotland. There aren’t really any grievances, and the cultures are similar enough (with Scotland speaking one of the ancient varieties of the English language, having a long history of being English speaking - in some cases, longer than some regions in England itself), and I’m not convinced they would fare well if they were independent. I guess one angle which would indeed justify secession would probably be the issue of Brexit.

  18. ISO #468
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    I think the Irish secession was justified, based on the long history of oppression by the English/British. Second of all, unlike Scotland, English influence in Ireland was a foreign influence that was forced upon Ireland, and many Irishmen regarded Irish culture and language as being more important than English culture for their identity.

    One secession that happened and succeeded that I do not agree with would probably be the separation of the various South American states (Colombia used to own Panama, Venezuela and Ecuador, and there used to be a federation covering all of Central America).

    One other case of disunity that isn’t really a case of secession would be Scandinavia. These three (four, if you include Finland) countries are sufficiently similar that it wouldn’t be unthinkable for them to be a single (perhaps federal) state.

  19. ISO #469

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    I think colonialism wasn’t completely bad because it exposed many of these cultures to Western civilization and initiated, at least a surface-level transformation of these societies along Western lines.
    Colonialism was the worst thing to happen to the african cultures, holy shit.
    You do realize the beginning of semi-modern western influence to africa is commonly referred to as the "rape of africa"? First western powers enslaved a good portion of the population, then they deliberately gave minority groups power over a majority population to act as defacto overlords over the population, used this system to drain resources and exploit workers for centuries, then when they finally left, they left arbitrary drawn borders that contained multiple ethnic and cultural groups, a good portion of which never liked each other in the first place, thus leading to countless civil wars and incredible instability within their governments.
    Judging a group of people by whether or not they adher to western values and ideas is the worst take in addition to your apparent ignorance regarding the damage that western civilization did to an entire continent.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    At least Mesk has lewdy lefty and raunchy righty. You're not even Canadian.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM-Shocked Kirby Face View Post
    Deathworlds is simply better than us at this game. Don't kill them for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    fucketh me in the ass

  20. ISO #470
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    The worst thing? Africans lived (and still do) in absolute poverty for ages prior to colonization. I think they would be far worse off today had it not been for colonialism. Colonialism did affect the African continent in many negative ways, but you have to compare to what was in Africa prior to colonization.

    African economies are actually (some of them) growing rapidly, and you can see this reflected in various statistics. Infant mortality is decreasing in Africa as is literacy. Life expectancy, too. I doubt this would be the case if they hadn’t been colonized. I actually believe the introduction of capitalism helped a great deal. They did commit terrible atrocities (see the Belgian Congo, probably the worst of them all). But it wasn’t all bad.

  21. ISO #471
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Did Europe exploit Africa? Of course it did. It was in their interests. I also think however that Africa wouldn’t have various states and semi-functional societies if it weren’t for the European presence there.

  22. ISO #472
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    I think Europe had a moral duty as colonizers to introduce Western values and civilization to Africa. Even unwillingly they did that (well, some more so than others. Belgium didn’t), and I believe that had a positive effect. Remember that few societies we would recognize as states existed in Africa, and now they do.

  23. ISO #473
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Did Europe do a sloppy job? Yes. Look at Rwanda.

  24. ISO #474

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    African economies are actually (some of them) growing rapidly, and you can see this reflected in various statistics. Infant mortality is decreasing in Africa as is literacy. Life expectancy, too. I doubt this would be the case if they hadn’t been colonized. I actually believe the introduction of capitalism helped a great deal. They did commit terrible atrocities (see the Belgian Congo, probably the worst of them all). But it wasn’t all bad.
    Yeah modern medicine does wonders, doesn't it.
    It's not like the west wouldn't have started interacting with an entire continent at any point. We could've done this thing called peaceful trading instead of forcing our own will upon the populations, and encouraging others within those population to do the same.
    The west could have ignored Africa for centuries, and they would have been so much better off than if they were "colonized"
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    At least Mesk has lewdy lefty and raunchy righty. You're not even Canadian.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM-Shocked Kirby Face View Post
    Deathworlds is simply better than us at this game. Don't kill them for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    fucketh me in the ass

  25. ISO #475

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    I think Europe had a moral duty as colonizers to introduce Western values and civilization to Africa. Even unwillingly they did that (well, some more so than others. Belgium didn’t), and I believe that had a positive effect. Remember that few societies we would recognize as states existed in Africa, and now they do.
    I'm not going to dignify this with any response other than "wtf bro?"
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    At least Mesk has lewdy lefty and raunchy righty. You're not even Canadian.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM-Shocked Kirby Face View Post
    Deathworlds is simply better than us at this game. Don't kill them for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    fucketh me in the ass

  26. ISO #476
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    I have no doubt that Africa could’ve been better off than they are. Maybe trading would’ve worked better, I don’t know. My suspicion is that simple diffusion of material goods isnt enough, though. Trading with the natives works but it doesn’t introduce ideas of government and civilization to the same extent that colonization did. It would’ve been a lot slower, and perhaps there (most likely) would remain parts of the continent that remain unclaimed by any significant governing authority.

  27. ISO #477

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    I'm kind of mystified that y'all seem to view declaring secession as intrinsically bad. I thought we were in agreement that the confederacy was bad because they were founded primarily to hold onto slavery, whether driven by economics and ideology or pure ideology is besides the point. Forcing groups to remain part of a state on the other hand is fundamentally oppressive. And I'm willing to bet the union didn't give a shit about slaves lol.
    I'm not saying that secession is intrinsically bad. I'm saying that it's usually (and in the case of the Confederacy, actually was) an aggressive motion. I don't think aggressive motions are intrinsically bad, however.

  28. ISO #478

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  36. ISO #486
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    why is adding ‘In God we Trust’ a bad thing?

  37. ISO #487

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  40. ISO #490
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    From Wikipedia:
    ”In Lynch v. Donnelly (1984), the Supreme Court wrote that acts of "ceremonial deism" are "protected from Establishment Clause scrutiny chiefly because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content"​

  41. ISO #491
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Idk to me that seems like a non-issue. Don’t see why it concerns you guys so nuch

  42. ISO #492
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Quote Originally Posted by rumox View Post
    Do you believe a state should be secular?
    Yes

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  47. ISO #497
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    Tbh I think putting text on flags is kinda cringe in general but, I mean if it were the same motto or something, why not? It’s on coins in the US too.

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  50. ISO #500
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

    The phrase in god we trust actually didn’t refer to the Christian God, originally. The founding fathers were deist, and to them God wasn’t a personal god. Generally Deism holds that God created man and endowed him with intelligence; I don’t think Deism holds any other beliefs about God. I also think that a relatively benign phrase such as this isn’t going to demonize non-believers or other denominations. It doesn’t even specify who God is. I see personally nothing wrong with this phrase.

 

 

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