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Thread: AmA

  1. #21

    Re: AmA

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    @Helz
    About the 1 hour thing questions - that's a lot of players here. Hence it's relevance to the community and why I brought it up.
    The practice vs theory question. Well, this is how it looked from my perspective: I see someone, who I think hasn't played for years, say he has worked on theory during those years. Idk, that was just one of the first questions that came to mind.

    Here is another question that I think is especially relevant for this community.
    If we look at Town vs Mafia as Solvers vs Pretenders due to TMI, how do you catch pretenders when they don't have to pretend because half town doesn't try to solve either? I'm exaggerating, yes, but I believe this is core reason why meta is at the center of everything here.
    I guess I answered the question myself. So I ask this - what's an alternative to meta in this scenario?

    @Marshmallow Marshall
    That "bad for sleep" wasn't about time constraints. It's about stress and in the middle of the night realizing that something that someone said during the game didn't make sense.
    Helz is right about the 1 hour thing. If you know that you're never going to be able to put more than an hour per game day into the game, you should probably not sing at all and wait for a better time.

    About sleep... well, you could say that about virtually everything it's just that you need to "sleep when you sleep", and not do other stuff. That's not really related to Mafia.
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  2. #22

    Re: AmA

    When are we getting shit faced and playing poker?
    Quote Originally Posted by AnassRhamur View Post
    Please don't post in the punished players section if you're not involved. Consider this a warning from Thugnificent. You got one Thug ticket. Collect 3 more of those and i'll have to issue a Thug Infraction. Collect 3 Thug Infractions and you get 1 Thug Misdemeanor Charge.

    Spoiler : :
    Citizen, Agent, Citizen, Vigilante, Citizen, Godfather, Citizen, Citizen, Voter, Elder, Mafioso, BackUpSleuth, Escort, Mafioso, Detective, Citizen, Citizen, Tailor, Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, Citizen, TheJoker, Citizen, LadyGaga, Mafioso, Winston Wolfe, Detective, Citizen, Citizen, Masquerader

  3. #23

    Re: AmA

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    @Helz I could always use a helping hand developing
    You are easily 10 times the programmer that I am but I would like to help you. I am not sure how to work around the issue that caused me to step back in the first place. I will help you in any way that I can with the time that I have left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    if we could just stop catering to the toxic attitude and apathy that has become the culture of this site.
    Its easy to tear something down. Building something real takes a level of conviction and dedication that is not cool or fun.

  4. #24

    Re: AmA

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    @Helz
    About the 1 hour thing questions - that's a lot of players here. Hence it's relevance to the community and why I brought it up.
    The practice vs theory question. Well, this is how it looked from my perspective: I see someone, who I think hasn't played for years, say he has worked on theory during those years. Idk, that was just one of the first questions that came to mind.

    Here is another question that I think is especially relevant for this community.
    If we look at Town vs Mafia as Solvers vs Pretenders due to TMI, how do you catch pretenders when they don't have to pretend because half town doesn't try to solve either? I'm exaggerating, yes, but I believe this is core reason why meta is at the center of everything here.
    I guess I answered the question myself. So I ask this - what's an alternative to meta in this scenario?

    @Marshmallow Marshall
    That "bad for sleep" wasn't about time constraints. It's about stress and in the middle of the night realizing that something that someone said during the game didn't make sense.
    If we look at Town vs Mafia as Solvers vs Pretenders due to TMI, how do you catch pretenders when they don't have to pretend because half town doesn't try to solve either?
    The tells I described will help you identify people who are trying to solve the game state from those who are not. If half the town is not trying to solve the game you are in an ugly situation. I do not have an answer for how to handle this in a game but I would strongly suggest you make joining a game and not playing a taboo behavior within the subculture that is SC2 mafia. You can push hosts to be critical on their signups and refuse to join games that have accepted players who sign up and dont play. Trust me when I say that hosts will want to have you in their games if you put in effort and given the choice between a hardcore player and an afk one they will go out of their way to keep you.
    My counter to the necessity of meta reads in this type of situation is simply that I refuse to allow meta reads to be an excuse for a lack of effort. I put a lot of effort into games that I play and I call out players behavior as disrespectful to myself as well as the rest of the players when they sign up for a game they dont participate in.
    In a word- Be as rude to them as they are cowardly and inconsiderate to you. The player who behaves this way is toxic to the community and you should show them no respect. Post game give voice to how their inconsiderate behavior hurt your experience. It will help prevent it from being considered an acceptable norm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    if we could just stop catering to the toxic attitude and apathy that has become the culture of this site.
    Its easy to tear something down. Building something real takes a level of conviction and dedication that is not cool or fun.

  5. #25

    Re: AmA

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Why did you hide it though?
    The dragon is a really ugly render from Warcraft 2. It totally breaks immersion when you see it..
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    if we could just stop catering to the toxic attitude and apathy that has become the culture of this site.
    Its easy to tear something down. Building something real takes a level of conviction and dedication that is not cool or fun.

  6. #26

    Re: AmA

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesk514 View Post
    When are we getting shit faced and playing poker?
    Im about 4 beers from being shit faced right now and have plenty of money to loose
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    if we could just stop catering to the toxic attitude and apathy that has become the culture of this site.
    Its easy to tear something down. Building something real takes a level of conviction and dedication that is not cool or fun.

  7. #27

    Re: AmA

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    You are easily 10 times the programmer that I am but I would like to help you. I am not sure how to work around the issue that caused me to step back in the first place. I will help you in any way that I can with the time that I have left.
    This is pretty cryptic tbh, not cryptonic but cryptic..
    This isn't where i parked my car.....

  8. #28

    Re: AmA

    @Helz
    Players are going to incorperate meta into their reads. I agree that a solely meta argument for town/scum reading someone is weak and holds little weight. But using meta to help substantiate a read works pretty well for me as town.

    You may have touched on this already but I think individual player meta is not something to just ignore when say you've played 20+ games with someone. I think a player can be playing perfectly as scum, but there can be certain meta tells that can essentially give them away.

    You would then need to build a case and show the thread your pov as to why they're scum, which may be controversial to the thread, but sometimes when you know you know eh?

    Do you think incorperating meta into reads is more beneficial then ignoring it?
    This isn't where i parked my car.....

  9. #29

  10. #30

    Re: AmA

    wdym with the time u have left helz do u have terminal cancer?
    I love oops

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  11. #31

    Re: AmA

    Why did she leave me...
    Spoiler : Forum Mafia :

    FM VI: Ash (Sinner) FM VII: Glen (Drug Dealer) FM VIII: Liane (Vigilante) FM IX: Andrei (Reserved Proletarian) FM X: fm Deathfire123 (Modkilled Blacksmith) FM XI: Corki (Citizen) FM XIII: Phoebe (Bodyguard) FM XIV: Helena (Grave Robber) FM XV: FM Pikachu (Mayor) FM XVI: FM Master Chef (Escort)

  12. #32

  13. #33

  14. #34

    Re: AmA

    Quote Originally Posted by blinkskater View Post
    This is pretty cryptic tbh, not cryptonic but cryptic..
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    wdym with the time u have left helz do u have terminal cancer?
    Sorry. I say things in weird ways sometimes. No cancer here : )
    More and more I have been setting targeted timelines for things and I kind of think of setting obligations in terms of the timelines I have set for myself. I do think quite a bit about how short life is and I usually have a negative idea of my future but thats part of a 'big-ol-box-o-crazy' that probably isnt worth me going into in a public forum.

    For details I stopped programming in the mafia map because opening the map corrupted a significant amount of code. Im not a great programmer. I consider myself a kind of a shit one. I just think I am a clever person and I grew up scripting starcraft maps which allowed me to do cool stuff. Most of what I did in the map delt with bugs and security issues that players hardly noticed until hackers would break the game and I had to figure out how to unbreak it.
    When the editor itself destroyed a bunch of stuff DR coded that I didn't understand I had to choose between updating and loosing that shit or not updating. It seemed like the good decision at the time and I was also constantly falling short of my goals for the timeline of development of the map. Then Freckles stepped in so I kinda let go of the issue.

    Maybe thats more transparent?
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    if we could just stop catering to the toxic attitude and apathy that has become the culture of this site.
    Its easy to tear something down. Building something real takes a level of conviction and dedication that is not cool or fun.

  15. #35

    Re: AmA

    @Helz
    Players are going to incorperate meta into their reads. I agree that a solely meta argument for town/scum reading someone is weak and holds little weight. But using meta to help substantiate a read works pretty well for me as town.
    I don't mean to invalidate meta. I just specifically want to harp on using meta to push a read. Lets say you are 100% certain a player is scum based on meta but I have never played with them and when I ask you why you scum read them you just say meta.. That means next to nothing to me. At that point the only value I can assign to your read has to come from my confidence in your meta reads and my confidence you are town. To make matters worse that gives me nothing I can use to read you on which is the base concept in breaking RVS- (That by creating a chain of nonsense accusations and reads you can watch players reasoning and draw real reads on them.) I always push players to think of making reads in the format of "I think A is B because of behavior C" and this kind of action avoids giving reasoning to C.
    Thats not to say it can't be done right. I have seen players say "I think joe is scum because as town he is more vocal. Look in game XXXX1(link) where he was scum vs game XXXX2(link) where he was town to understand where I am coming from." This gave me information I could use to both read joe as well as the guy that gave the read. I will say I still liked it much less than a normal read simply because to understand it I had to dig through multiple other game threads which is AIDS and violates the simple concept that as town, you want to decrease entropy. I would even advocate referencing multiple games as a strong scum move for this simple reason. The last game I played I power wolfed I was everyone's strongest town read and when asked to reference another game I literally gave a game where I did the exact same things as scum knowing that my providing a game of me being a town read wolf would look better than the incriminating information contained in the game that nobody had time to look at.
    To scale back to the original issue the fact that towns objective is not to identify but rather to eliminate scum creates a situation where sharing information holds as much if not more value than obtaining information. With this in mind meta reads are hard to share.

    You may have touched on this already but I think individual player meta is not something to just ignore when say you've played 20+ games with someone. I think a player can be playing perfectly as scum, but there can be certain meta tells that can essentially give them away.
    I totally agree. Pretty much every tell I push functions from "There is whatever core difference between scum and town by nature of game state" which is not much different from saying "There is whatever difference in player X behavior as town vs scum" for identification. I would even argue that it is by far easier to identify idiosyncratic tells than it is to pick up on general ones; but this has the issues of requiring a history with the player as well as the substantial limits in communicating your thought process to advocate for an alignment read to other players.
    The larger issue comes from an individuals progression as opposed to the technique. In large, meta reads function on something I call 'gut reads.' You play games with a player and get a 'feel' for them. When they end up as scum most players connect them with being scum to the 'gut read' or 'feel' of their play style as opposed to any logical reasoning and then assign rational to that feeling after the fact. Whats worse is that in a game most players will at some point get some instinct that every other player in the game could be scum throughout the game but sets in the moment a feeling is confirmed. The fact that the player had a scum feeling on 10 our of the 13 players is conveniently ignored and although their gut reads were so inaccurate they are better off shaking a magic 8 ball the fact that the gut read existed in the first place sits in the players mind and they start to structure confidence in their gut feelings. Fast forward 20 games and you get the player who post game talks about how he was 100% right on pegging every scum even though he scum read every player in the game at one point and lost.
    This kind of crap creates bad players with a high confidence in their skill which not only cripples their ability to become 'good players' but also gives a terrible example when the veterans of a community pass on their knowledge. I always say "If you cant explain your reasoning you have no reasoning" and would also regurgitate the whole "Practice does not make perfect.. Perfect practice makes perfect" quote in reference to these issues.

    You would then need to build a case and show the thread your pov as to why they're scum, which may be controversial to the thread, but sometimes when you know you know eh?
    In context to what you said I agree. But it still holds the 'ifs' of 'if you are right,' 'if you can explain your read to others,' and 'if your read is actually a read to begin with and not a gut feeling perpetuated by confirmation bias.'

    Do you think incorperating meta into reads is more beneficial then ignoring it?
    100% yes. I just do not think meta reads are done correctly a large part of the time and the lack of understand in the way the game functions often leads to players depending on either meta or wagonomics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    if we could just stop catering to the toxic attitude and apathy that has become the culture of this site.
    Its easy to tear something down. Building something real takes a level of conviction and dedication that is not cool or fun.

  16. #36

    Re: AmA

    As town, you want to decrease entropy.

    I know that's not the main point of your post, and I agree with the general message of it, but do you see the entropy thing as a rule to follow without exception, or as a general guideline? I've seen intentional entropy pushed by townies (and defused later) solve games to different extents. It was risky, but I believe it almost always paid off.
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  17. #37

    Re: AmA

    Quote Originally Posted by blinkskater View Post
    Also... Do you think post restrictions are a good idea?
    In a way. I think they force players to grow outside of their comfort zones.

    I do not think they are a good idea when its a measure to ensure activity. Requiring 5 posts a day does not matter when you end up with the players who post a total of 10 words in their 5 posts. If you have to force your players to play why are you even allowing them in your game..

    However it can be a really cool exercise when your limiting the guy who makes 100 posts a day to cap out. It forces people to consider how they share the information they want to.

    I have greatly enjoyed some post restriction games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    if we could just stop catering to the toxic attitude and apathy that has become the culture of this site.
    Its easy to tear something down. Building something real takes a level of conviction and dedication that is not cool or fun.

  18. #38

    Re: AmA

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    I know that's not the main point of your post, and I agree with the general message of it, but do you see the entropy thing as a rule to follow without exception, or as a general guideline? I've seen intentional entropy pushed by townies (and defused later) solve games to different extents. It was risky, but I believe it almost always paid off.
    You make a beautiful point here. I think its a balance. Breaking RVS is all about creating information while building a lynch pool is all about consolidating the information available into a persuasive argument. So simply no- I wouldn't say town should eliminate entropy without exception.

    I will say that in my progress as a player I went from going out of my way to generate any information into focusing on generating information I specifically felt was useful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    if we could just stop catering to the toxic attitude and apathy that has become the culture of this site.
    Its easy to tear something down. Building something real takes a level of conviction and dedication that is not cool or fun.

  19. #39

    Re: AmA

    I just love it that some players constantly do exactly what Helz's describing. The good old "I x read him because meta/gut".
    You would think that the more people play the more they make arguments more often. It is for many. But the opposite turns out to be very tempting, huh?
    Me personally. Last game I really loved when blink and mag both meta-hard-read MM to be town. Them both having high accuracy rate on meta-reading MM meant that he was almost always town there, no matter blinks and mags alignments. That was convenient. MM's alignment was as much proven as anyone could ever ask for in this game of uncertainty.

  20. #40

 

 

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