FM X rules & role cards (not finalized)

[Luna]

Punishing lurkers in a 50 player game will be harder though (which is why you've made the distinction between lurking and afking I guess). Imagine, in a 38 player game, all 38 players being really active and posting 5-6 times an hour. Way too much of a headache. With *50* players lurking is pretty much a good strategy for almost every role - a Town PR can bide his time and get more results, a Mafia can hide amongst the hubbub, a neutral can work from the shadows, and even Citizens can lurk until they see an opportunity to review their scum-tells/claim a PR/take a bullet.

50 players, inventory systems, multi-votes, levelling up... I really hope it's worth it Yayap. This is one game where I'd hate to be Town, even a PR, because I'd be overwhelmed trying to keep up with the day chat.

I suggest you add in a rule where, if you cast a vote without putting up a correct tally alongside it, you will get modkilled instantly with no exceptions.

[Auckmid]

Making a level system for citizens would add a bit of flavor for them. While I have no sympathy for rage quitting citizens, the first thing I thought when seeing this set-up is that it would suck to be citizen and miss out on the whole inventory/level thing. Giving citizens an extra vote would be OP, but maybe give them 1 piece of armor at level 2, 1 time use of body armor at level 3? That would probably be OP as well, mind you.

[Ash]

I've always been curious..
How do you know if someone sent a rep to someone?

Also, for citizens it should be:
Level 1: your just a citizen.
Level 2: your an epic citizen.
Level 3: Your a badass citizen!
Level 4: This is no ordinary citizen I tell you!
Level 5: You just ate a bullet, good job.

To level up: Be as trollololol as possible, if you bite a bullet before you even reach level 5, then you skip the previous levels and you are level 5. This may take a while to level up from level 4 to 5, but hey, biting a bullet is what it's all about.

[Yayap]

Question: lets say a thief or dark thief steals from a level 5 mafioso or something, and then the thief uses the gun, will he get the same benefits from the level 5 mafioso or just a regular old gun?

Default weapon. Just because he has a gun doesn't give him the instruction booklet or experience on how to use it to it's maximum potential.


As for citizens, I can't think of a balanced way to level him up or extra benefits. Because if 1 citizen lvls up, chances are most will. I rather keep them as the basic citizen role that I love to play as (as boring as that sounds). (citizens may have priority for getting revived from modkills........ but you didn't hear that from me)

[Ash]

(citizens may have priority for getting revived from modkills........ but you didn't hear that from me)

Just to end up being another citizen! hahaha

[Echonian]

Lurking and being AFK are 2 different things. Lurking means you are reading the topic and intentionally not posting. Being AFK, you are not online and can't post even if you wanted to. Thats why I kept the 2 separate.

Yeah, they are different in theory. People who do not even come online often have just as much ability to post as those that lurk, however. It is merely the fact that they choose not to even log on that separates them (at least to anybody's knowledge that they haven't talked to in advance).

Thanks for listening. I'm new to FM, so giving perfect feedback is difficult on my part. The other responses you made in that post make sense to me.

One important thing about preventing lurking/AFK is screening who gets to join. Even if that only involves checking activity from previous FMs, or if not sure, putting in the sign-up thread a minimum standard for activity to help deter people from signing up that may not be able to contribute much. At the very least this could make it easier to prevent them from joining future FMs, though there will always be trolls. If things come up for a person that is serious, it shouldn't be held against them, but should be explained (it should also be made clear that joining should be done by people that know that they will have time to participate, at least at the time of the FM starting).

Again, I'm not an expert on FM due to inexperience. I'm just giving my input.

Edit:

Someone has asked if a role can loose levels. Currently, the answer is no, however if you guys believe that it would add an interesting twist to the game,

I'm considering adding 1 drug effect and a new wizard power at lvl 2 that would reduce a role down to lvl 1. What do you guys think?

I would like to say that I haven't read the role cards yet, though I will momentarily. I do think that levels in general need to be very carefully controlled, and I prefer having a more unique and interesting role from the start rather than allowing for upgrades that will be incredibly difficult to balance (they could either be too strong, or be nearly pointless to have in the FM at all).

Edit 2: I've read the role lists now. I like that the roles seem more interesting (though some slightly streamlining could help, no idea on specific ideas yet though). My only real problem with the increased complexity and fun is that citizens remain entirely useless. This is one of my least favorite parts of FM, and making every single other role even more fun to play makes citizens seem more and more useless and boring, a role that feels like a punishment.

How to improve citizens without making them overpowered is difficult, though. If they could level up through successful lynches (only needing 1 for the first upgrade), and have levels removed or some-such from helping lynch somebody who is not an enemy of the town, it might work well. This would prevent citizens from being overpowered from the start, but allow them to maybe gain some abilities through successful use of their only real power. Ideas for said powers I have no idea about right now, but I wanted to put this idea out there in any case.

[Auckmid]

I said above that I thought it would suck to be citizen in this set-up. However, citizens are only as useless as they want to be. Citizens have been some of the best at guessing the alignments of people, simply by post analysis. The major problem comes in when half of the citizens say "I'm a citizen, fuck this. I'm either going to be a sheep for the entire game or I'm going to rage quit right now".

After doing some thinking, I don't see how a citizen level system could be implemented without being OP. The rewards would have to be very minor, and be in a way that all the citizens wouldn't level up at once, such as "Hammer an anti-town player to level up"...................................... Hey, that was actually a pretty good idea

[Kromos]

I'm not sure how likely it is to lynch 6 scum players in a row (counter will be reset by lynching town or the jester). Has this ever been done before on other FMs?

[Auckmid]

I'm not sure how likely it is to lynch 6 scum players in a row (counter will be reset by lynching town or the jester). Has this ever been done before on other FMs?

Nah. FMVII was a pro performance by the town, but even there a good deal were killed at night, we stopped lynching at the end when we realized that Yuffie was using jailor powers which allowing for a double execute with no lynch, and then there was that 1 mislynch right in the middle because Zane was being a tool.

[Kromos]

Maybe it's not such a great idea then. I thought only a couple of people would be able to get extra votes, it's mainly there as an incentive for the rest of the cits.

[Echonian]

However, citizens are only as useless as they want to be. Citizens have been some of the best at guessing the alignments of people, simply by post analysis.

I'm against that being even remotely thought of as a strength of town (or implied) when that ability has literally nothing to do with the role. In fact, a role that gets you concrete information would be more accurate in guessing alignments, and combining it with post analysis isn't rocket science for many.

Having a level system for the Cits I would recommend as follows:

3 successful lynches in a row (non-town) = extra vote. Though that vote would need to be hidden somehow, obviously.

6 successful lynches in a row = second, and final extra vote (or perhaps something else).

Getting extra votes would be the simplest solution, and is far from overpowered when you consider the sheer number of people that will be able to vote and that it would take a minimum of 3 or 6 days to get increases in votes.

The point made about "every cit leveling up" just because a lot vote for the same one doesn't make much sense in my opinion. If it takes more than one lynch in a row, cits will make mistakes. Going on the bandwagon doesn't at all guarantee that they will vote correctly, either. There is room for a margin of error, is my point, that increases with every lynch considering it instantly resets to 1 vote the moment you pick the wrong person to have killed.

Requiring 6 lynches in a row for a single extra vote is a meaningless reward. The number of citizens that would be able to do that in a normal FM game are a tiny, tiny minority of them, assuming they even survive for 6 days worth of lynches that are ALL against anti-town (more if town was lynched, making it literally impossible if they ever got reset in level, or if there were no lynches, or lynches that matter).

[Fragos]

Maybe you can consider adding Electro Maniac to role list? Role description is already written in M-FM Parking thread.

[Electro Maniac]
Goal: Be the last killing role alive or joint victory with mafia. (no other special evil role except other Electro Maniacs)
Automatically allied and know who are the other EMs (if more than 1).
*Inventory: Body Armour, Shockproof Vest, Charging Device, Shocker, Surgical tools
You may choose to leave a note with each charged player stating demands, plans, or other dastardly, bastardly things. Target is not notified that they are charged unless you decides to leave a note.
Body Armour give immunity for 2 nights unless stolen. Automatically used if targeted.

Each night you can charge a player with your charging device. You may also choose to kill already charged player.
Electrocution ignores immunity.

Lvl 1: Charges 1 target, or kill already charged target

Lvl 2: Charges 1 target, charged targets will die when they visit you

Lvl 3: Charges 2 targets, or charge 1 target and kill 1 already charged target. Charged targets will die when they visit you.

LvL up
to Lvl 2: Make 2 charged players electrocute themselves
to Lvl 3: Make a charged player electrocute himself by visiting you.
You will be notified when you level up.

Note: Shocker is to kill already charged targets.

[Ubernox]

I think Yayap should call this Mafia: The RPG


Also, you need to add electro maniac to this setup.

[Luna]

You really, really don't

[Yayap]

Electro maniac is too similar to the arsonist. I'm not planning on adding any other neutral roles in my setup, since it would affect balancing.


As for citizens, the only way I would want them to level up is by being recruited by Masons. If the scum don't deal with the masons until late game, the masons will be controlling the day threads.

[Fragos]

I would argue about Electro Maniac being similar to arsonist (at least in the wasy he can kill charged targets), but it's ok, since you never had to experience of meta-game with Electro Maniac. I still don't think that EM can affect the balance of the game with 50 players.

But personally I would say that he is as much different from Arsonist as Spree Killer is now different from Serial Killer. Well, better luck next time. I still have Mini-FMs and S-FMs in my diposal.

One think I really like in the game is Thief. Yuffie already had enough fun with stealing other items and abilities.

[Echonian]

Current citizen bias

The problem with implementing citizens in the exact same way as before (which was already incredibly boring) is that the increased complexity that everybody else gets other than citizens makes any argument of overpowering by giving them any abilities moot (as that's being done by giving everyone else more abilities, though by leveling, not that I was suggesting the citizens get free stuff).

There seems to be an overwhelming majority of people who talk about FM who insist that having a large number of players play as a completely bland role (by design) is the only possible way to make it balanced. It is a way to balance the game, but it is far from being the only way, and the more players that are in any particular FM and the more complex your power roles GET, the worse of a point having bland citizens is. Because the only point of having people be citizens is to reduce clusterfucking (excuse my language) from power role interactions, which increases the more you increase the complexity of roles and the more players that are in the game in total. At least, that's the only explanation I've ever gotten or seen that's plausible.

Rant about citizen balance

What it boils down to though, in my opinion, is the fact that nobody seems to be interested in creating a FM with carefully balanced roles and interactions in advance. Instead, everybody who hosts them (from what I've read of archives) simply throws in a bunch of stuff (but doesn't tweak it nearly enough), and adds citizens to make the game easier to manage rather than balance out the roles properly. To be clear, being able to recruit citizens IS a strong point of certain power roles, but I see no reason why those roles can't be expanded to also be able to recruit town "power" roles instead (perhaps with modifications, and if citizens weren't so bland and overall shit the entire phrase "power role" wouldn't be as much of a problem). Well, other than not wanting to do the work for that. There would obviously need to be exceptions to this as well, or perhaps even the loss of special abilities, but it would still be far more interesting than being citizen in the first place.

Of course, playing as a citizen is not unfun. If that were true, far less people would be interested in FM. It is, objectively, less involving than playing literally any other role though. Giving every player something to do would make FM a lot more fun for everyone overall, if balanced.

Last thoughts

Ranting aside, balance is already something that could use a lot of tweaking. I don't see a reason why coming up with new town roles or ways to replace the mob of citizens would be any more of a balancing issue than anything already proposed. Granted, with 50 people its going to be far more difficult, but that's due to the sheer number of people in a game that requires heavy amounts of interaction between people to work properly. The more people that are added to a FM, the more work it takes from the average player to decipher what is going on (hell, reading the day threads alone and dealing with all of the arguments would be impossible above...about 50 players, or at the very least difficult enough that its just not worth it).

Electro Maniac

I would have to agree on this role being far too similar to Arsonist, and therefore should either not be put in or should replace the arsonist. Personally, I prefer the arsonist. Though I will say that the Electro Maniac seems overpowered, and that's saying a lot when the Arsonist is already a role that needs to be limited to prevent stupidity.

[Yayap]

The big issue about balance:
Most hosts balance the game with day1 and day2 in mind while ignoring balance on day3 and later. The problem that arises with too many power roles is not their abilities, but the coverage speed.

In some games, if the power roles all revealed, they would be able to cover all the players before the mafia would be able to kill them off = everyone revealed and then mafia looses without even a chance.

In other games, the balance has been reversed, where even a 100% success on lynches couldn't give town a win.

The balance is: information given to town per night vs KPN.

You'll notice that there are very few "information roles" in my setup, the KPN will be low compared to other games as well. Making the day the key of the game instead of the luck of the PRs. Lynches or Mislynches will determine the victor.

If you look at some of the other town power roles, you'll notice that they too are similar to cits, they just have the ability to empower other people. Armorsmiths, gunsmiths, mayors, doctors, escorts, bodyguards: what can they do that cits can't that make them non boring?

To be a good FM player, you need to master the citizen role before you can master any other role. I'm a big fan of the classic setup with only cits and mafiosos.

I'm going to leave the cits as is since they can all get items from blacksmiths, heals from doctors or any other effect from other PRs. Sometimes a confirmed citizen is the most feared man on the playing field since scum know that it's a wasted shot not on a PR.

[Auckmid]

I have been here for every single FM game. There have been citizen complaints before. What a great deal of it comes down to is that making a setup of such a large size with all PRs would no longer be a game of skill. It becomes a game of chance, which is almost completely dictated by the luck of night actions. To make an all PR town would require you to buff the anti-town factions to a point where the town could lose even if they do everything right, but are repeatedly the targets of all anti-town actions. While it may be possible to balance an all PR setup to an even chance of everyone winning, it would still end up with the whole "Let the game be decided by the luck of the first few night actions" thing.

The mason's recruiting PR's is also something which has previously come up and been shot down. There is no good way to balance it. If the mason caused the PRs to lose their ability when becoming a mason, then the masons are much more of a hindrance then a help. If the PRs kept there ability’s, then the mason would become COMPLETLY OP.

While you can do whatever you want when you want and prove me wrong when you become FM host, Yapyap has already planned out a setup. You may decide to have an all PR setup, but don't try to make the current setups all PR. Double voters may not be up to the same scale as vigilante's or similar roles, but they are still PR's. Citizens tend to sheep, so there is every possibility that you could have a ton of citizen's become double voters if the town has a great start. While having a very few double voters in the mid game wouldn't hurt that much, having many in the mid game, which could happen, would cause large balancing issues. Even just having a few in the late game could fuck up mechanics like LYLO. I was citizen 3/4 for my starting games. If anyone has the right to complain, it is me, and I am telling you that citizens, while not as fun as PRs, are not as bad as everyone makes them seem, and do help the game stay in a more skill orientated direction.

While you can say whatever you want, please don't try to change the way our FMs work before you even play one.

[Muso]

The Citizen is the best role and is the heart of this game.

If you're not willing to play Cit then why play FM?

[wolfcheese]

Just by existing, citizens help protect the power roles. Not only can the cit take a bullet for the town, but it is important for the town to have a role that scums can claim...that might sound stupid but it's true. Without citizens, scum is more likely to claim the simplest power role (usually doctor imo), and this makes it that much harder for the real townies (doctors) to say anything about themselves without drawing suspicion. You see it happen in SC2 mafia all the time...lots of doctors, real and fake, are easily lynched or executed by jailors. Cause that's what everyone claims.

[Echonian]

I'm going to leave the cits as is since they can all get items from blacksmiths, heals from doctors or any other effect from other PRs. Sometimes a confirmed citizen is the most feared man on the playing field since scum know that it's a wasted shot not on a PR.

Being able to get items, heals, and other effects is not a reason to leave them as is (or a strength as that statement seems to imply). Primarily because those things apply to almost any role, and citizens are less likely to have beneficial effects used on them due to them being less important (predictably).

As far as being the "most feared man" due to them getting shot instead of a power role...I'm not seeing how losing a town on the basis of their general uselessness is something to fear. A dead citizen in the grand scheme of things is a somewhat minor gain to town versus a power role dying (and later on could be almost equally as bad) and a very bad thing to happen versus the kill not being effective in the first place.

As far as learning to play the game as citizen before trying to figure out power roles, that only makes sense if the roles were given out on the basis of experience and/or ability. But that hasn't been the case as far as I've seen.

Citizens being called the "best role" by anybody is objectively false. Citizens being helpful for balance is correct, but saying that their ability to die for power roles is a good thing for the fun of players involved or a major advantage is very odd.

Edit: Also, I have effectively played one, and I've done more than my fair share of research on the subject.

[Ash]

Citizens being called the "best role" by anybody is objectively false. Citizens being helpful for balance is correct, but saying that their ability to die for power roles is a good thing for the fun of players involved or a major advantage is very odd.

Everybody has their own opinion.
Maybe they are not the best role power-wise, but they are the best role because they make up the whole town and they have to analyze scum posts.

@WolfCheese - That's true lol, whenever I'm doctor (or even survivor or amnesiac) I always lie about my role in Jail chat.

[jaczac]

Maybe you could add my Security Guard?
*nudge nudge*

[Security Guard] (Law Enforcement)
Goal: You want the mafia and other killing roles dead.
*Inventory: Body Amour
Body Armour gives immunity twice. Not auto use.

Each night you can Guard a player,

Lvl 1: Guards 1 target

Lvl 2: Guards 1 target and see who visited them.

Lvl 3: Guards 1 target and choose between investigating them or look-outing them.

LvL up
to Lvl 2: Guard a person successfully twice (does not have to be same person)
to Lvl 3: Guard a person successfully 4 times (does not have to be same person)
You will be notified when you level up.

[Yayap]

Considering that I plan to have very few information roles in my setup, citizens will be a key element to keeping them alive.
Personally, I love playing as a citizen, I don't feel as bad when I die at night to the mafia. I like the citizen role so much that I even play as a citizen when I'm a PR (sometimes ignoring my abilities) See FM3 and FM8 for examples.

The fact that masons can't die by recruiting the wrong person (except GF & Veteran), I expect that citizens may very well be a key role to the masons this game. If I give them any kind of buff, they will be OP and easier to find by the masons. If you guys really want an all PR game, play SC2 mafia. Personally, I hate the follow the "PR information" mentality.

[Ubernox]

Why do you like playing citizen so much? Do you really enjoy deducing a man's affiliation based purely on studying his posts that much?

[Yayap]

Why do you like playing citizen so much? Do you really enjoy deducing a man's affiliation based purely on studying his posts that much?

I feel more free to expose people quicker without having to fear about being killed early costing the town an important PR. I have fun interrogating people during the day and asking the question that need answering. As a PR, I prefer to wait a few days so I have more than 1 night of information, so I usually have to block out most of my questions unless someone else asks them for me.

[Forum Mafia GM]

I feel more free to expose people quicker without having to fear about being killed early costing the town an important PR. I have fun interrogating people during the day and asking the question that need answering. As a PR, I prefer to wait a few days so I have more than 1 night of information, so I usually have to block out most of my questions unless someone else asks them for me.

This. So much.
Citizen is great and its not like you find out a whole lot more while being a PR.

[Auckmid]

I've been looking at the way FMIX is going, and I am starting to doubt that even if everyone is accepted into FMX, that we shall have 50 sign ups.

[Ash]

I can't believe FMX is coming already.
So many FM's to go, I wonder how many FM's will be finished by the end of this year.

[McJesus]

Looking forward to the new mechanics and everything!

[CptKirk]

I want to sign up!

[Yayap]

Signups are live:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...-signup-thread

[TheJackofSpades]

There are a dozen or moreso reasons why this setup will likely not work.

I can't help but feel that if you truly think you can balance this many variables from start to finish that you are simply lying to yourself.

In fact, this setup seems to value a de-emphasis on the prediction of actions simply due to the fact of how impossible it will be to adequately keep track of a large percentage of the roles' level-up progress beyond those that are readily apparent(i.e. mafioso, which is ironically probably the most imbalanced role in the game).

I think I'm gonna sit this one out, though I've already stated that in Skype.

Good luck.

[Grimrailer]

Where Do I receive my role? PM? and how can we do things without anyone knowing? I am new. :/

[Yayap]

Where Do I receive my role? PM? and how can we do things without anyone knowing? I am new. :/

When the game is about to start, you will be PMed an account name and password. So no one will know your true identity, you'll get your role by PM shortly after I'm done setting the final things up.

[Kromos]

Are we going to have anonymous accounts? I checked the members list and it has accounts like fm narks and fm kronos (spelt my name wrong :P). I guess these would be randomised as Narks and MikeVipe etc. aren't in the game as far as I know.

EDIT: I should read the post above me.

[CmG]

there is no fm CmG. "Sadface"

[Fragos]

Then why fm Admiral IS there? Something is really fishy.

[Ash]

Where are you guys seeing this?

[Nick]

Go to members. Then sort according to join date.

I see fm Nick lol. The person who gets that account, make sure you don't sully my name!

[Ash]

wtf fm archangel and admiral but no ash, im jelly.
I'm guessing that's our theme, and next thing you know everyone starts impersonating the person they got. Prepare to get gamethrown by le Admiral, and Arch and trolled by le Narks.

[philie]

FM CmG is a must. wtf. give it to me even

[BorkBot]

No fm BorkBot either

There's a lot of players on that list that don't have much meaning to me and who aren't playing. It'd be funnier if we all got an account with the name of another person who was actually in the game, heh.

[Goremancer]

I have a question about the LV2 Hooker. It said that the target doesn't know he/she is roleblocked. What if the roleblocked target is an investigative role? Will it automatically show up citizen?

[Kromos]

I have a question about the LV2 Hooker. It said that the target doesn't know he/she is roleblocked. What if the roleblocked target is an investigative role? Will it automatically show up citizen?

He probably won't get any PM.

[Forum Mafia GM]

I have a question about the LV2 Hooker. It said that the target doesn't know he/she is roleblocked. What if the roleblocked target is an investigative role? Will it automatically show up citizen?

The PM will not contain any results... he may assume that he was roleblocked but will not be notified to verify. PM is sent just so he knows I didn't forget him.

[Rocshi]

Is [Blackmailed]a given role? or is it something you are given if targeted by the blackmailer?

[Raptorblaze]

Is [Blackmailed]a given role? or is it something you are given if targeted by the blackmailer?

*You may not reveal to the town that you were blackmailed as long as the blackmailer is alive, in fear that your dirty secrets will be revealed.*

I'd assume you only become blackmailed upon being blackmailed by a blackmailer. Given that they need to assign you a task.

[Zack]

Alright this just occured to me... What are the investigation pairings? You haven't mentioned any information about this yet.

The reason i'm asking is due to the Investigator level ups. Citizens don't count towards leveling up according to the role card. So lets say an investigator checks the godfather on night 1 and gets a citizen result, then checks some other non-citizen role on night 2 and levels up. Presto! Citizens don't count for level ups but you got a citizen result = target was not a citizen! Lynch the godfather!

So... Clarification on this please? heh