Register

User Tag List

Results 1 to 42 of 42
  1. #1

    Discussion: Cult

    I believe it's time to address the purple elephant in the room. As per usual, I'll preface by saying anything related to cult or masons will not be pushed in the first update. I've got enough polishing on my plate to do all that. Additionally, this is a discussion thread on everyone's favorite (take that how you will) faction -- please be courteous and keep your posts concise.

    Cult has a bit of a reputation for either being extremely strong, or pretty damn weak. We can generally attribute that variance to how often they can convert and the presence of Masons. Honestly, I don't have many ideas or even much feedback to go off of in regards to how to fix this issue so I'd love some input and ideas. Anyway, this is what I got so far:

    -Cult Leader (Neutral Evil) Can convert town members into Cultists each night: If the Cult Leader dies, all cultists (or half, rounded up) will suicide.
    Why: This allows the cultists to be the same all-consuming entity that some people see as ideal while at the same time putting a check in place to stop it in it's tracks completely. If a Cult Leader chooses to convert you, you get a second chance at a victory on his/her terms.

    -What that means for Witch Doctor: I'd recommend we actually think of comprehensive plan for a new faction and put the Witch Doctor there. Call it The Circle or The Tribe or whatever with it's own unique killers, deception and support roles similar to Mafia/Triad. Let Witch Doctor simply heal like a regular Doctor, but for a different team. Maybe they can have a variant of Electromaniac that places "hexes" on people to kill or something, I dunno.

    Anyway, get creative and fire away.
    Last edited by Frinckles; July 11th, 2019 at 11:06 AM.

  2. #2

  3. #3

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Tauntshaman View Post
    I don't like the idea of making a new faction like mafia/triad...

    Also u need to think about how the old saves will be affected, if u r gonna change a few roles
    Cult is already it's own faction, and was intended to be from the beginning although it was never quite fleshed out. I guess it's important to distinguish between Cult as a faction and the cultist role though. I liked the more traditional idea of the Cult role as seen here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cult
    I'm not sure what you mean about old saves.

  4. #4

  5. #5

  6. #6

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    I think Cult should be a more fleshed out faction with a WD maintaining the old cult.

    If you did the Cult Leader dies, whole cult dies, that would be awesome. Where WD would then change to a two part role. Recruiting new members, or protecting the Cult Leader. Not sure what to call this role but it would be good 8 3 3 1.

    8 Town - 3 Triad - 3 Cult - 1 Neut/any random. Or a 7 3 3 2.

    Cult Leader, WD (Protective), Cultists, Farseer (Investigative), Apothecary (Killing).

    Apothecary, just a small idea, could make an antidote for 1 Cult member each night. OR cause one person to accidentally drink with the cultists that killed themselves. It's only a killing role as a way to get a playing field balancer. So if Marshall Lynch's Cult Leader and cult dies and the apothecary poisoned marshal the night before. Marshal is poisoned. and cult is eliminated taking Marshal with them. OR The apothecary uses the antidote on WD. Then WD is saved and can continue on. Converting into Cult Leader or Retaining Role.

  7. #7
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    I think adding more roles for cult members (like support/deception roles) would also serve to better flesh cult out.
    Maybe, instead of having all the other cult members die if the Cult Leader dies, make it so the Cult Leader is the only one who can recruit new Cultists. That would nerf the Cult a bit.
    You'd also perhaps need an investigative role to help the Cult in finding potential convertees.
    Last edited by ; July 12th, 2019 at 09:53 AM.

  8. #8

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Cult is an inherently broken faction.

    The settings vary way too much. There is no way a cult team should be allowed to recruit every night.

    Furthermore, the main cult opposition is a mason leader. There should be some sort of guarantee of masons if cult spawns. Sheriff is not strong enough to deal with cult.

    This faction needs a wholesale revamp so I heartily approve of these initial discussions.


    Cult leader is an interesting idea to help the whack a mole situation that forms, but still, cult should not be able to recruit every day.
    Last edited by Renegade; July 13th, 2019 at 05:58 PM.

  9. #9

  10. #10

  11. #11

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Stereo View Post
    I like the idea of Cult being expanded upon and then taken out of the Neutral Evil pool.

    Mafia/Triad with a Neutral Killing has gotten pretty formulaic, it would be nice to see something more unique take Mafia/Triad's spot in traditional setups.
    Issue is, I don't know if a faction that starts out with 3+ members can remain balanced while still having the conversion mechanic. On the other hand, I can see Cultist/Cult Leader (by itself) being a standalone role that can convert each night. At that point though, this new 'faction' we're talking about really wouldn't even be cult -- it'd be something else. I may try to ship the update with an option for the mass-suicide mechanic just so people can try it out. At the very least, it gives the Cult an Achilles heel.

    To your second point, the idea of Mafia / Triad roles that are unique only to their own faction did pop up. It's a different conversation for a different time but making the gang-war type setups a bit more interesting sounds fun.

  12. #12

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    Issue is, I don't know if a faction that starts out with 3+ members can remain balanced while still having the conversion mechanic.
    If they can't kill at night (or have limited [1~2] kills) then I think it works out. The game is driven less by people dying and more by how people act with what goals they are trying to achieve.

    Then probably a no conversion on night 1 option for the converter.

    On the other hand, I can see Cultist/Cult Leader (by itself) being a standalone role that can convert each night. At that point though, this new 'faction' we're talking about really wouldn't even be cult -- it'd be something else.
    To be honest I'd rather Cult become their own thing. As a neutral evil it isn't fun that you lose because a 1.3% chance spawned in game with no masons. As they are now, they are among the least fun to play against and as.

    I may try to ship the update with an option for the mass-suicide mechanic just so people can try it out. At the very least, it gives the Cult an Achilles heel.
    I dig.

    To your second point, the idea of Mafia / Triad roles that are unique only to their own faction did pop up.
    To be honest I thought that was where this thread was headed.

  13. #13

  14. #14

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    I think the general cult members should have some kind of "pray" ability where, if they all target cult leader, the CL is healed.

    Imo having the entire cult die when CL dies makes them very fragile with not much incentive - for me personally - to play and enjoy.

    Edit: And yes, invest would see them all congregating onto him/her

  15. #15
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by MaShY View Post

    Imo having the entire cult die when CL dies makes them very fragile with not much incentive - for me personally - to play and enjoy.

    Edit: And yes, invest would see them all congregating onto him/her
    +1

  16. #16

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    I just see it as high risk, high reward. Converting a person each night is pretty ridiculous. Couple that with the status quo including the possibility of a witch doctor. I think it might reward good play/misdirection from teammates and cult leader but we'll have to see.

    At any rate, it can just be an option to try out for the meantime while we think something else.
    Last edited by Frinckles; July 16th, 2019 at 02:22 PM.

  17. #17
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    That reminds me. Whilst a little-known strategy, in a cult game with no Neutral Killers and a Mayor, the Mason Leader can keep visiting the Mayor every night, thereby preventing conversion. This guarantees at least 3+ votes for the town throughout the game (this would be the optimal play for the Masons in such a scenario). I feel like this ability might be a bit too strong, perhaps we should consider removing the Mason Leader's ability to protect the Mayor from Conversion? Or perhaps limit it in some way.

  18. #18

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Magoroth View Post
    I feel like this ability might be a bit too strong, perhaps we should consider removing the Mason Leader's ability to protect the Mayor from Conversion? Or perhaps limit it in some way.
    I've noticed this and if there's no other kill capable evil aligned roles in the game, Town wins.

    Perhaps protecting unique Town Government roles eats a conversion? This doesn't stop the Mason Leader from committing suicide, but it does give cult a 1 night opportunity to convert Mayor if they feel so inclined.

  19. #19
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Stereo View Post
    I've noticed this and if there's no other kill capable evil aligned roles in the game, Town wins.

    Perhaps protecting unique Town Government roles eats a conversion? This doesn't stop the Mason Leader from committing suicide, but it does give cult a 1 night opportunity to convert Mayor if they feel so inclined.
    Yes! That would be one way of solving this issue

  20. #20

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Stereo View Post
    I've noticed this and if there's no other kill capable evil aligned roles in the game, Town wins.

    Perhaps protecting unique Town Government roles eats a conversion? This doesn't stop the Mason Leader from committing suicide, but it does give cult a 1 night opportunity to convert Mayor if they feel so inclined.
    then you give the mason leader a little bit (more) of an investigative ability. not sure that's the right approach

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  21. #21

  22. #22

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by renegade View Post
    Cult should be removed from neutral evil into its own faction. It is not truly a neutral role. It is a faction actively trying to recruit/eliminate other factions so it can win.
    agreed

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  23. #23

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    -Cult Leader (Neutral Evil) Can convert town members into Cultists each night: If the Cult Leader dies, all cultists (or half, rounded up) will suicide.
    Why: This allows the cultists to be the same all-consuming entity that some people see as ideal while at the same time putting a check in place to stop it in it's tracks completely. If a Cult Leader chooses to convert you, you get a second chance at a victory on his/her terms.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by MaShY View Post
    I think the general cult members should have some kind of "pray" ability where, if they all target cult leader, the CL is healed.

    Imo having the entire cult die when CL dies makes them very fragile with not much incentive - for me personally - to play and enjoy.

    Edit: And yes, invest would see them all congregating onto him/her
    and that's why I disagree with mass suicide.
    A nice tweak can be to add Detection Immunity (as an option) to Cult Leader, so if a LO watches the Cult Leader, they can't see shit if the Cult Leader has detection immunity.
    Another tweak can be to add Night Immunity (as an option) to Cult Leader, considering that he is the leading figure of another evil faction and a major force, so it only makes sense for him to be invulnerable like Godfather/Dragon Head and neutral killers.

    My alternative to the Mass Suicide mechanic:
    Assume three cult roles initially: the Cult Leader (maybe name him the Prophet instead?), the Cultist, and the Witch Doctor.
    Of course CL/Prophet converts people into Cultists, once per night, while Cultists can't do anything. That is how new cult is going to work.

    But say CL dies, and WD fails to save him. Instead of every single cultist dying in one night, one or two of the cultists (excluding special cult roles like WD) will become a role named "Zealot" or "Doomsday Cultist".

    Zealot
    A doomsday cultist who wants to get everyone prepared for the End.
    Night Ability: Convert someone at night, independently of the Cult Leader.
    Attributes:
    - Cannot have more than 1/3 of the original game size (minus Mafia roles).
    - The Cult gains one conversion for every two Cultists killed.
    - As a Zealot, you will commit suicide after a certain number of nights (changed by role settings)
    - If the Cult Leader and all existing Zealots die, a random Cultist will become a Zealot.
    - Special Cultist roles won't become Zealots unless they exhaust their abilities (so if WD uses up all their heals) or are alone.
    Settings:
    - Suicide after (1/2/3/RANDOM) number of nights {Default: 2}
    - (All/Half/One) cultists become Zealots upon the death of the Cult Leader {Default: One}

    this gives Cult a fighting chance should the Cult Leader die too early.

    The Zealot mechanic can either replace mass-suicide completely, or as an option to switch between the two.

    I'm not sure about having the Zealot be a role able to be placed in, maybe it should only spawn in certain situations like with Scumbag. Of course, hosts can just set their weight to 0 to prevent it from spawning in at the beginning of the game.
    Last edited by Grakylan; August 2nd, 2019 at 05:54 PM.
    https://imgur.com/a/NqMwElZ fuck it heres all the sc2mafia pics i would have put in the sig

  24. #24

  25. #25

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    The main problem with cult is that they aren't neutral evil yet they are in neutral evil slot. They have completely different win condition from other 3 neutral evils. And also they take townies votes and convert them into evil votes destroying whole balance. Also if they convert town player when the cult lost already anyway they take away this players hard earned victory and this is the reason i personally don't like playing cult saves.

  26. #26

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    The main problem with cult is that they aren't neutral evil yet they are in neutral evil slot. They have completely different win condition from other 3 neutral evils. And also they take townies votes and convert them into evil votes destroying whole balance. Also if they convert town player when the cult lost already anyway they take away this players hard earned victory and this is the reason i personally don't like playing cult saves.
    Well it's stronger than a nightkill, sure, but they also aren't able to just freely convert any time without limits because of that. I don't think there's a balance issue in that part of their role.
    It's a bit comparable to jailors, who cannot jail after lynches, but instead then not only create chats, but also block, give immunity, ignore immunity, remove from chats and have an ability to kill, which also ignores healing, too. In the case of jailors there's with all that even way more of an advantage than with cultists.

  27. #27

  28. #28

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Well i guess we have a misunderstanding here. Neutral Evil basically is never a killing role, of course Serial Killer, Arsonist and MM are all Neutral Killing/Evil but 95% of the time they will be excluded from Neutral Evil and put as Neutral Killing. And Neutral Evils in this case are Auditor, Judge and Witch. They all have a win condition that is letting them win with all Neutrals and Triad. Cult on the other hand is on Neutral Evil slot but has a win condition to kill Town, Mafia/Triad and Neutral Killing. So even if setup rolls Witch Doctor on Neut Evil slot and he converted no one it already tipped the balance against Mafia/Triad (and Neutral Killing) because they didn't receive support and additional vote from Auditor/Judge/Witch.
    Last edited by RufusPL; August 2nd, 2019 at 06:11 PM.

  29. #29

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    Well i guess we have a misunderstanding here. Neutral Evil basically is never a killing role, of course Serial Killer, Arsonist and MM are all Neutral Killing/Evil but 95% of the time they will be excluded from Neutral Evil and put as Neutral Killing. And Neutral Evils in this case are Auditor, Judge and Witch. They all have a win condition that is letting them win with all Neutrals and Triad. Cult on the other hand is on Neutral Evil slot but has a win condition to kill Town, Mafia/Triad and Neutral Killing. So even if setup rolls Witch Doctor on Neut Evil slot and he converted no one it already tipped the balance against Mafia/Triad (and Neutral Killing) because they didn't receive support and additional vote from Auditor/Judge/Witch.
    That's the host's fault then. My own setup uses the neutral evil slot to randomly decide between only sk, arso, mm or cultist. Any of them, when put in a drawer with witch, judge or auditor, would result in an unbalanced save. Just because the cultist doesn't have the killing tag doesn't mean its wincon has to be identical to all other non-killers, when there are other types of evils that have similar wincons aswell.

  30. #30

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    I don't think you can include Judge/Witch/Auditor in the save then so it's not even regular save anymore so this discussion is pointless. You could just move Cult to Neutral Killing and all the problems would be solved. The win condition doesn't have to be the same but atleast similiar, like neut benigns all have win conditions that doesn't put them against any faction but they have to do different things to win. It's not hosts fault that the game developers put role in the slot that doesn't belong there. It's not fault of the players who just started making saves that people who should know this game better than them screw up their job. There is no reason for a learning player to think that there is anything wrong with Cult at Neutral Evil slot if someone more experienced put it there.
    Last edited by RufusPL; August 2nd, 2019 at 06:35 PM.

  31. #31

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    I don't think you can include Judge/Witch/Auditor in the save then so it's not even regular save anymore so this discussion is pointless. You could just move Cult to Neutral Killing and all the problems would be solved. The win condition doesn't have to be the same but atleast similiar, like neut benigns all have win conditions that doesn't put them against any faction but they have to do different things to win. It's not hosts fault that the game developers put role in the slot that doesn't belong there. It's not fault of the players who just started making saves that people who should know this game better than them screw up their job. There is no reason for a learning player to think that there is anything wrong with Cult at Neutral Evil slot if someone more experienced put it there.
    I didn't mean it as an insult, sorry if it came along that way. I agree, from a new player's perspective it isn't as clear as with killing roles that the cultist has a higher impact on balance than fully neutral, evil roles.
    I suppose neutral killing could just be renamed to neutral hostile or something and then include the cult there.

  32. #32

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Though I still believe that them becoming virtually unstoppable once they recruit enough is an issue. No other neutral role is able to keep following their wincon after dying.
    By disabling their recruit ability on a cultist's death you'd at least move them closer in line to the other neutrals.

  33. #33

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Though I still believe that them becoming virtually unstoppable once they recruit enough is an issue. No other neutral role is able to keep following their wincon after dying.
    By disabling their recruit ability on a cultist's death you'd at least move them closer in line to the other neutrals.
    I think that would make them too based on luck, if Cultist gets unlucky and is checked by ML n1 the cult is over. If cultist gets killed by Triad/Neutral Killing n2-n3 it's also over even tho he got a convert and wasn't found by Town. But on the other hand if that won't happen they will still steamroll the game.

  34. #34

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    I think that would make them too based on luck, if Cultist gets unlucky and is checked by ML n1 the cult is over. If cultist gets killed by Triad/Neutral Killing n2-n3 it's also over even tho he got a convert and wasn't found by Town.
    Well that's just the game. Every role needs some luck, why should someone be immune to that

  35. #35

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Well that's just the game. Every role needs some luck, why should someone be immune to that
    Because if they won't be killed early they will gain too much power anyway. It's just not good balancing way in a game like this. If you put cultist as only evil faction in a setup they will be too vulnerable because of that. If you put them in regular setup they still can get ridiculously powerfull.

  36. #36

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    And about the cult's setup slot discussion earlier...
    How about dividing the 3 possible types of neutrals into hostile evil, neutral evil and neutral benign?
    Hostile evil = sk, arso, mm, cult, wd
    Neutral evil = witch, judge, auditor
    Neutral benign = surv, jester, exe, amne
    Then possible slots that combine them would just be neutral any or any evil. I believe that'd allow for better balancing than what exists now.

  37. #37

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    Because if they won't be killed early they will gain too much power anyway. It's just not good balancing way in a game like this. If you put cultist as only evil faction in a setup they will be too vulnerable because of that. If you put them in regular setup they still can get ridiculously powerfull.
    Should probably just be tested before putting it down like that. Either way it would add new ways of stopping them in late game, I'd have a hard time believing that makes their standing in the game less enjoyable.

  38. #38

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    This slot change is basically what i said earlier and it definitely would work better than what we have now. On what u said earlier Cult should probably get a role indentical to Mason Leader. So they have only 1 role who can convert at a time(so it's easier to roleblock them or prevent a convert by killing) and you can set if Cultist becomes Cult Leader after original Cult Leader dies. It would be easy solution that would still let Cult be powerfull but then you could easly limit their power if you wanted to.
    Last edited by RufusPL; August 2nd, 2019 at 07:09 PM.

  39. #39

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    I'm so late at responding to this. Been doing a lot of work on the map but Cult is certainly something on my mind. Assuming I stay on course we should be able to evaluate whether options like Cult Suicide Pact are effective means to the balance aspect of Cult. Here are some quick thoughts. This is under the assumption of a 933 with no masons.

    The Win-Con Conundrum
    There are some innate qualities about Cult that cannot change; The most important being that win-cons will still change after conversion. This is something I tried to reconcile with the idea that if a SK were to target you at night, you would be eliminated from the game outright whereas if you were targeted by a Cultist, you would be given a second chance to remain in the game.

    While that's true at face value, it's honestly a naive way of understanding the effects Cult has on the game. While you might be dead after being an SK victim, you're still technically a Town member and have the possibility to win alongside them. Cult does not offer you the same generosity and yeah, it can really suck. Again however, this is something fundamental about Cult and while a lot of people take issue with it -- it cannot be solved.

    The Effects of Conversion
    The next consideration is how often can the Cult convert? Barring no influence from killing roles, they can win a game after the first or second night with successful conversions. The can also do this in spite of being lynched correctly for consecutive days, we've seen this before I'm sure. The conversation about moving Cult to a group with killers (and renaming it 'Neutral Hostile' or something) makes a good amount of sense. Compared to Serial Killers, converting a Town member (thereby reducing their numbers and bolstering yours) is effectively twice as strong as a night kill. For this reason a common restriction players opt for is Cult converting every other night.

    Outside of our game::
    There are two other restrictions that are fairly common. One is X-shot and you can probably infer what it is; Uses of the ability. The other is Suicide-Pact / Flag-Bearer; If the leader dies, they all die.

    X-shot (let's say.. 3?) Cult would be interesting, but it loses all meaning with the first restriction mentioned above (a night in between conversions.) Cultists would simply need to have the ability to convert each night for this to be viable as it wouldn't be flexible.

    On the other hand, Suicide-Pact makes sense with regardless of what nightly restrictions are in place and doesn't directly undermine roles like SK (if they were to be in the same category.) Let the Cult be Cult, convert as often as you're able to and protect the Cult Leader anyway you can.. The primary issue I see with this is that players might game throw against their leader (although this is a rules issue.) Cult becomes much, much more fragile but it can also operate how it was designed to.

    Anyway that's my understanding of where we are with it. This was meant as a light followup while I finish out the update. Plus, Halloween is coming up. Sp00ky Cult.
    Last edited by Frinckles; October 1st, 2019 at 01:18 PM.

  40. #40

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Cultist = government
    Witch doc = protective

    How does that make a whole "faction"? and cult is OP enough just with those 2, adding more would make them unbalanced and unfair.

    Cult is basically just one thing and messing around with stuff like editing faction names and such is not an improvement to the game and or neccesary its just a total waste of time for no reason.
    I WILL NOT POST ADVERTISEMENTS IN MY SIGNATURE.

  41. #41

    Re: Discussion: Cult

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    And about the cult's setup slot discussion earlier...
    How about dividing the 3 possible types of neutrals into hostile evil, neutral evil and neutral benign?
    Hostile evil = sk, arso, mm, cult, wd
    Neutral evil = witch, judge, auditor
    Neutral benign = surv, jester, exe, amne
    Then possible slots that combine them would just be neutral any or any evil. I believe that'd allow for better balancing than what exists now.
    this is what i did with narrator!

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  42. #42

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •