S-FM 171 Suicide Still Allowed - Page 4
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  1. #151

  2. #152

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Thornholt View Post
    nevermind, 14 hours left. I miscalclated... PHEW!
    If you click the wolfram link, it shows the amount of time left which is 26 hours

    I'm not convinced by NotPandas defense and weak vote on Spruance.
    :toad:

    Spoiler : O.o :
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWolf
    Why are you being an anti town bitch? You got a fucking point or just a major fucking attitude problem? I dare you to take me on with a game related case cuz I'll tear it apart.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  3. #153

  4. #154

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Thornholt View Post
    So we're going for panda then?
    At the moment that's where I'm leaning. Don't hammer Spruance if Suntax votes him. Still time left tonight to do some analysis.
    :toad:

    Spoiler : O.o :
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWolf
    Why are you being an anti town bitch? You got a fucking point or just a major fucking attitude problem? I dare you to take me on with a game related case cuz I'll tear it apart.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  5. #155

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  8. #158

  9. #159

  10. #160

  11. #161

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Spruance View Post
    So the post that you made said that three townies did not survive the night. Does that mean all three of them were citizens or could one of them been the jester?
    The text was merely for flavor; roles are not revealed upon death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  12. #162

  13. #163

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Thornholt View Post
    so like I said, jester might have died...
    Unlikely. Suntac is obvious jester.
    :toad:

    Spoiler : O.o :
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWolf
    Why are you being an anti town bitch? You got a fucking point or just a major fucking attitude problem? I dare you to take me on with a game related case cuz I'll tear it apart.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  14. #164

  15. #165

  16. #166

  17. #167

  18. #168

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPanda View Post
    I honestly don't see why you'd vote for someone who's pointing out that someone is clearing simply assigning blame and pulling out arguments out of thin air, rather than the guy who's blaming and pulling out stuff out of thin air
    I am sriously confused.. from what I can tell:

    Spruance won't vote for toadette or Thornholt, believes suntax is jester

    Toadette won't vote for spruance, believes suntax is jester

    NotPanda won' t vote for Thornholt

    Thornholt is confused, believes suntax might be vamp

  19. #169

  20. #170

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    I really don't feel like rereading

    -vote NotPanda
    :toad:

    Spoiler : O.o :
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWolf
    Why are you being an anti town bitch? You got a fucking point or just a major fucking attitude problem? I dare you to take me on with a game related case cuz I'll tear it apart.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  21. #171

  22. #172

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    GAME OVER. THE TOWN HAS WON
    Congratulations to Thornholt, Kat-chan, deathworlds, Toadette, RLVG, and Spruance!

    The remaining town members gathered to lynch NotPanda. He proclaimed his innocence and tried to shift the blame, but the town would not be swayed. As the noose went around his next, NotPanda tried to assume bat form to escape; unfortunately, the sun was still up and his transformation caused him to instantly turn into dust. The vampire threat was eliminated.


    I'm pleased with how this game went. The suicides, if anything, probably helped eliminate suspects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  23. #173

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    If I were to redo this setup, I would probably remove/redo the Jester role. With the suicides shortening this and probably future games, I doubt they have the 50% winrate they'd need to be competitive. Suntax was spotted rather easily in this game, but I am not sure how much better anyone could have done.

    NotPanda did a fine job as first-time scum. Everyone has to go through that experience sometime. Hope to see you back for more of my setups!

    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.

    Especially good job to Toadette, Thornholt, and Spruance for being to able to lynch the correct target in a 3v1v1. I'll let you three fight it out for MVP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  24. #174

  25. #175

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post

    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Just goes to show that people REALLY like having a button to press at night.

    -vote Toadette


    For leading the town upon my death.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    At least Mesk has lewdy lefty and raunchy righty. You're not even Canadian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unknown1234 View Post
    BRO HUUUUUUMP!! That's so Mesk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    fucketh me in the ass

  26. #176

  27. #177

  28. #178

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    -vote ika


    ika inspired me to lynch NotPanda

    In the end it was NotPanda or Thornholt for sure, definitely not Spruance lol. Obvious Suntax was Suntax
    :toad:

    Spoiler : O.o :
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWolf
    Why are you being an anti town bitch? You got a fucking point or just a major fucking attitude problem? I dare you to take me on with a game related case cuz I'll tear it apart.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  29. #179

  30. #180

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sen View Post
    It's alright if some factions and/or players have it tougher than others. Third party factions are the most difficult to win with in most setups.
    While this is true and no setup can be perfectly balanced, it's my design philosophy to give all factions a roughly equal win chance, skill and other factors being equal.

    I may actually make the Jester an instant solo-win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  31. #181

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    While this is true and no setup can be perfectly balanced, it's my design philosophy to give all factions a roughly equal win chance, skill and other factors being equal.

    I may actually make the Jester an instant solo-win.
    I think that's probably right. Better it be the skill of the players that dictates the outcome (to the greatest extent possible) vs. the likelihood of victory for the factions built into the setup. Reminds me of the Illuminati game where it was just an uphill fight for scum based on the setup that rolled.

    What's nice also is that you have two different data points on how this game has gone with the two runs through of it.
    Last edited by DarknessB; January 12th, 2016 at 07:50 PM.

  32. #182

  33. #183

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    I may actually make the Jester an instant solo-win.[/COLOR]
    If you are going for balance, then it'd be probably better to replace the Jester altogether.
    This is the only site I've ever seen where the Jester isn't bashed to death by players and mods alike; besides being the easiest role to win with, it's one of the few roles that punish the Town for lynching someone of a different faction.

    Have you played Assassins in the Palace? It's a setup where there's a King and an Assassin. When lynched, the Assassin has one shot at figuring out the King and killing him, so the Assassin tries to live long enough to narrow down the living players while having more time to figure out his target.

    You could make your Jester an Vampire Slayer (a flavour name for an Assassin) instead, and make it so he has one chance to kill the Vampire Lord after getting lynched. If he does it, the game ends and only the Jester/Slayer wins. If not, well, the Town gets punished for the mislynch by getting an extra death. That way you get to keep your third faction role which the Town should avoid lynching, while also giving it a win condition that requires some thinking at the very least.

    Still, I think Jesters are bad in general, and should be kept away from normal, balanced setups.

    -vote MattZed

  34. #184

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sen View Post
    If you are going for balance, then it'd be probably better to replace the Jester altogether.
    This is the only site I've ever seen where the Jester isn't bashed to death by players and mods alike; besides being the easiest role to win with, it's one of the few roles that punish the Town for lynching someone of a different faction.

    Have you played Assassins in the Palace? It's a setup where there's a King and an Assassin. When lynched, the Assassin has one shot at figuring out the King and killing him, so the Assassin tries to live long enough to narrow down the living players while having more time to figure out his target.

    You could make your Jester an Vampire Slayer (a flavour name for an Assassin) instead, and make it so he has one chance to kill the Vampire Lord after getting lynched. If he does it, the game ends and only the Jester/Slayer wins. If not, well, the Town gets punished for the mislynch by getting an extra death. That way you get to keep your third faction role which the Town should avoid lynching, while also giving it a win condition that requires some thinking at the very least.

    Still, I think Jesters are bad in general, and should be kept away from normal, balanced setups.

    -vote MattZed
    Easy? I'm of the opinion that Jester is harder to win with than Survivor or pretty much any town or scum faction. You need to dodge night kills and get a lynch on you, all the while I've told everyone a Jester exists in the setup. As I had it in this game, a Jester lynch gives town the same numbers as a mislynch, and a nightkill on a Jester is basically a wasted kill.

    AitP is hard enough for the Assassin as it is. Making him have to be lynched first is just unreasonable.

    Like I said, I have considered scrapping the role entirely, but I am liking the solo win the more I think about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  35. #185

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    Easy? I'm of the opinion that Jester is harder to win with than Survivor or pretty much any town or scum faction. You need to dodge night kills and get a lynch on you, all the while I've told everyone a Jester exists in the setup.

    There's a single role in this game with the ability to kill at night. If you get the only NK in the game to target you as a Jester, that says more about your play than about the role.

    As I had it in this game, a Jester lynch gives town the same numbers as a mislynch, and a nightkill on a Jester is basically a wasted kill.
    You are planning on making it an insta-win when lynched, which is effectively punishing the Town for lynching someone who doesn't share their victory conditions.

    I was doing a Google search to see if I could find a discussion on the subject, and funnily enough, I found one on this site: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...in-Forum-Mafia
    It's an interesting poll.

    That thread also included a link to a wiki article which sums up the idea very well:
    Jester is held in profound distaste partly because it is easy to win with (any village idiot can get lynched Day 1) and partly because even in the best case it punishes Town for lynching someone who is not of their alignment. (...) Jester is generally considered a bastard role. (...) Most people will probably still tell you to simply not use Jesters.
    That said, I only mentioned all of this because you said something about liking balance, and a Jester bring anything but that to a game. But there's nothing wrong with having one in your game if that's what you want.

  36. #186

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sen View Post
    There's a single role in this game with the ability to kill at night. If you get the only NK in the game to target you as a Jester, that says more about your play than about the role.


    You are planning on making it an insta-win when lynched, which is effectively punishing the Town for lynching someone who doesn't share their victory conditions.

    I was doing a Google search to see if I could find a discussion on the subject, and funnily enough, I found one on this site: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...in-Forum-Mafia
    It's an interesting poll.

    That thread also included a link to a wiki article which sums up the idea very well:


    That said, I only mentioned all of this because you said something about liking balance, and a Jester bring anything but that to a game. But there's nothing wrong with having one in your game if that's what you want.
    Does anyone actually empirical data on how well Jesters do in getting themselves lynched? What you've said and the quote you've cited are making it sound like Jester's succeed about 75% of the time. I think the figure, in a setup like mine, is probably closer to 25%. This is a huge difference and a point that needs to be settled in discussing if Jesters are balanced.

    I don't really see a problem in punishing players for lynching someone. Sure, it's not ultra vanilla, but the point of such adding another faction, such as a jester, is to add nuance to the "find my faction, lynch the other faction" paradigm.

    If I made the Jester an instant solo win, my goal would be a roughly 33-33-33 winrate among town-vamp-jester, and I don't think the setup would be too far off from that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  37. #187

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    I doubt there's any data; this is a game without a fixed set of rules, and a playerbase with different skill levels. That said, whether a Jester achieves or not their victory, it's undoubtely the easiest win condition to achieve, since all you have to do is getting lynched, in a game where the Townies -and particularly the ones who are new to the game- are just too eager to see "slips" and "scum reads" in the most meaningless things, and where the scum is happy to lynch anyone as long as it's not one of them. That's like playing basketball and having a win condition of "miss a shot".

    As for the problem with punishing the players for lynching a Jester, it's because it punishes the Town fr doing their job; whether the Jester is unexperienced and thus is blocking lynches, spamming or being generally annoying, or experienced and slowly but effectively "slips" in the scummiest way, the Town are just doing their job: getting rid of someone who is either scum or a someone preventing them from achieving their win con, and punishing someone for doing what they are supposed to is not cool.

  38. #188

    Re: S-FM 174 Suicide Still Allowed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sen View Post
    I doubt there's any data; this is a game without a fixed set of rules, and a playerbase with different skill levels. That said, whether a Jester achieves or not their victory, it's undoubtely the easiest win condition to achieve, since all you have to do is getting lynched, in a game where the Townies -and particularly the ones who are new to the game- are just too eager to see "slips" and "scum reads" in the most meaningless things, and where the scum is happy to lynch anyone as long as it's not one of them. That's like playing basketball and having a win condition of "miss a shot".

    As for the problem with punishing the players for lynching a Jester, it's because it punishes the Town fr doing their job; whether the Jester is unexperienced and thus is blocking lynches, spamming or being generally annoying, or experienced and slowly but effectively "slips" in the scummiest way, the Town are just doing their job: getting rid of someone who is either scum or a someone preventing them from achieving their win con, and punishing someone for doing what they are supposed to is not cool.
    I really must disagree with your sentiment that "it's undoubtely the easiest win condition to achieve," at least in a setup with a confirmed jester. There are three outcomes for a jester: You get lynched, you get night killed, or the game ends with you alive. Anything you do to try to look suspicious is done in the context that everyone is looking for that. See: Suntax this game. If you're obvious, no lynch for you. If you're subtle you increase your chances of being NK'd.

    Again, I don't see what Jester is doing as a problem, just something different. I'm trying to make the game more nuanced than a simple round of "lynch the scummiest player day after day until all the scum are dead or we are." I don't see why "town should be better off for eliminating a non-town" has to be a thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

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