Investigator change please?

[lingsarecute]

There has been a post on the forum saying about changing the crimes list:
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...ghlight=invest

I understand that mods dont have the time to implement a new role to the game or are too afraid to change the games balance.
But changing the crimes list is probably the easiest thing to do - all u need to do is just change the text that is used in triggers.
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Original list of crimes:
Soliciting (Role-blockers) - Escort, Consort(Obvious), Cultist, Mason Leader (Less Expected)
Kidnapping and Murder (Kidnappers) - Jailor, Kidnapper
Identity Theft (Disguisers) - Disguiser
Murder (Killer) - Vigilante, Serial Killer, Mafioso, Enforcer, Godfather(Obvious), Mason Leader, Bus Driver, Beguiler, Bodyguard(Less expected)
Destruction of Property (Mass killer) - Veteran, Mass Murderer, Arsonist(Obvious), Janitor (Less Expected)
Corruption (Voting Power) - Marshall, Mayor, Judge(Obvious), Auditor(Less expected)
Disturbing the Peace (Night-chat) - Judge, Crier(Obvious), Escort, Consort (Less Expected)
Conspiracy (Secret Organization) - Mason Leader, Cultist, Witch Doctor
No Crimes (Scum Claim) - Survivor, Executioner, Jester, Amnesiac, Citizen, Mason, Doctor, Bodyguard, Sheriff, Coroner(Obvious), Witch, Blackmailor(Less expected)
Arson - Arsonist
Trespass - Beguiler, Framer, Investigator, Detective, Lookout, Agent, Consigliere, Spy
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I decided to add 2 new crimes to this list - Invasion of privacy for invest roles and ??? for neutral benign.
When I was making this new list I realised that framer and beguiler were the only roles that have only trespass crime so i moved them "No Crimes".

Changed list of crimes:
Invasion of Privacy (Investigative) - Investigator, Detective, Lookout, Agent, Consigliere, Spy
Soliciting (Role-blockers) - Escort, Consort(Obvious), Cultist, Mason Leader (Less Expected)
Kidnapping and Murder (Kidnappers) - Jailor, Kidnapper
Identity Theft (Disguisers) - Disguiser
Murder (Killer) - Vigilante, Serial Killer, Mafioso, Enforcer, Godfather(Obvious), Mason Leader, Bus Driver, Beguiler, Bodyguard(Less expected)
Destruction of Property (Mass killer) - Veteran, Mass Murderer, Arsonist(Obvious), Janitor (Less Expected)
Corruption (Voting Power) - Marshall, Mayor, Judge(Obvious), Auditor(Less expected)
Disturbing the Peace (Night-chat) - Judge, Crier(Obvious), Escort, Consort (Less Expected)
Conspiracy (Secret Organization) - Mason Leader, Cultist, Witch Doctor
No Crimes (Scum Claim) - Citizen, Mason, Doctor, Bodyguard, Sheriff, Coroner(Obvious), Witch, Blackmailor, Beguiler, Framer(Less expected)
Arson - Arsonist
??? - Survivor, Executioner, Jester, Amnesiac

P.S What do you think that a crime for neutral benign should be named?

[Slaol]

I had started working on an improved crime system. I'll do that again

[lingsarecute]

thx :3

[DarknessB]

I don't think that Neutral Benigns should all be in the same category because that would make it way too easy for an Investigator to identify them vs. other roles. Instead, they could be split up among the other crimes so that there's at least some counterclaim possible in each case. Something like this might work:

• Identity Theft: Amnesiac (this would at least give Disguiser a potential counterclaim and Amnesiac could be some nut seeking to copy someone's identity so it fits in terms of character).
• Disturbing the Peace: Jester (fits in terms of the Jester's annoy ability at night and would force the Town to consider whether a Judge suspect could be a Jester instead).
• Corruption: Executioner (fits in terms of the Executioner misleading the Town to lynch his target and would force the Town to consider whether a Judge or Auditor suspect could be an Executioner instead).
• No Crimes: Survivor (fits in terms of the Survivor having no night action other than vesting -- I'd find it hard to stick a crime on the Survivor honestly).

[DarknessB]

Also, in terms of other changes from the original list / MasterNinja's proposed list:

• To be consistent, Sheriff should probably have Invasion of Privacy as well. Could even stick Framer under there given they are having to plant evidence.
• Shouldn't Masons have Conspiracy as a crime? They're a member of the secret organization after all.
• I don't think a Mason Leader should have Murder -- I understand the purging Cult mechanic, but it just doesn't seem to be in character, and it would allow for perfect identification of the ML (i.e. no other role would have both Conspiracy and Murder).
• I'd probably ditch the separate crime of Arson as it allows an Investigator to identify an Arsonist beyond any doubt (other than a Framer planting evidence of course).

[SuperJack]

Also, in terms of other changes from the original list / MasterNinja's proposed list:

• To be consistent, Sheriff should probably have Invasion of Privacy as well. Could even stick Framer under there given they are having to plant evidence.
• Shouldn't Masons have Conspiracy as a crime? They're a member of the secret organization after all.
• I don't think a Mason Leader should have Murder -- I understand the purging Cult mechanic, but it just doesn't seem to be in character, and it would allow for perfect identification of the ML (i.e. no other role would have both Conspiracy and Murder).
• I'd probably ditch the separate crime of Arson as it allows an Investigator to identify an Arsonist beyond any doubt (other than a Framer planting evidence of course).

Murder only shows after he has murdered someone. Same with all other clues. Only show after act Is committed.

[Slaol]

The ideas in the OP are not at all what the final form will look like. The OP looks far closer to original Investigator which was entirely broken and not going to happen again.

My idea for the eventual final form is something to this effect.

Doctor - No Crimes, Trespassing (for visiting), Malpractice (for a target dying anyway)
No Crimes would reveal obviously a good sided role
Trespassing would label it as a visiting role
Malpractice would directly say "Doctor" if a less than common situation arose

[lingsarecute]

The ideas in the OP are not at all what the final form will look like. The OP looks far closer to original Investigator which was entirely broken and not going to happen again.

My idea for the eventual final form is something to this effect.

Doctor - No Crimes, Trespassing (for visiting), Malpractice (for a target dying anyway)
No Crimes would reveal obviously a good sided role
Trespassing would label it as a visiting role
Malpractice would directly say "Doctor" if a less than common situation arose

I like the fact of having a malpractice crime - it is stupid when u claim doctor and say that u healed someone that died (when he got attacked twice).

[lingsarecute]

I don't think that Neutral Benigns should all be in the same category because that would make it way too easy for an Investigator to identify them vs. other roles. Instead, they could be split up among the other crimes so that there's at least some counterclaim possible in each case. Something like this might work:

• Identity Theft: Amnesiac (this would at least give Disguiser a potential counterclaim and Amnesiac could be some nut seeking to copy someone's identity so it fits in terms of character).
• Disturbing the Peace: Jester (fits in terms of the Jester's annoy ability at night and would force the Town to consider whether a Judge suspect could be a Jester instead).
• Corruption: Executioner (fits in terms of the Executioner misleading the Town to lynch his target and would force the Town to consider whether a Judge or Auditor suspect could be an Executioner instead).
• No Crimes: Survivor (fits in terms of the Survivor having no night action other than vesting -- I'd find it hard to stick a crime on the Survivor honestly).

Crimes for each role are interesting but amnesiac wont be mistaken with any other role because - disguiser has murder and indentity theft and amnesiac has just identity theft.

[DarknessB]

Crimes for each role are interesting but amnesiac wont be mistaken with any other role because - disguiser has murder and indentity theft and amnesiac has just identity theft.

Forgot about that -- good point. In any event, there's something that bothers me a little bit about the Identity Theft crime being exclusive to Disguiser. Essentially, it operates as a "detect exact role" option for the Investigator. Same is true of the Arson crime as well. Some ambiguity would be nice in terms of giving scum a possible alibi and forcing the Town have to make a more difficult choice.

[lingsarecute]

Forgot about that -- good point. In any event, there's something that bothers me a little bit about the Identity Theft crime being exclusive to Disguiser. Essentially, it operates as a "detect exact role" option for the Investigator. Same is true of the Arson crime as well. Some ambiguity would be nice in terms of giving scum a possible alibi and forcing the Town have to make a more difficult choice.

Btw, it would be amazing if amnesiac gained identity theft AFTER he remembers a role - that way you could differentiate amnesiac that turned to town from spawned town members => amazing clue for clever investigators.

[SuperJack]

Since the Invest is quite underpowered, espesially at the start of the game. Perhaps adding more clues to the lis
Spesifically. Not just the actions the player commits, but the actions committed on the player also.
Why? To stop scum fake claiming.
Names can be changed.

Injured= Survived an attack.
Doused= Doused by an Arsonsit.
Audited= Been audited.
Prisoned= Been jailed/kidnappe
Magic=Been controlled
STBeen roleblocked
Busspass=Been bus driven

[lingsarecute]

Since the Invest is quite underpowered, espesially at the start of the game. Perhaps adding more clues to the lis
Spesifically. Not just the actions the player commits, but the actions committed on the player also.
Why? To stop scum fake claiming.
Names can be changed.

Injured= Survived an attack.
Doused= Doused by an Arsonsit.
Audited= Been audited.
Prisoned= Been jailed/kidnappe
Magic=Been controlled
STBeen roleblocked
Busspass=Been bus driven

Maybe a new investigative role for town?

[Slaol]

Maybe a new investigative role for town?

Something that investigatves feedback has always been floating around. I do like the sort of items appearing to confirm some feedback to the Invest though

[DarknessB]

Maybe a new investigative role for town?

While we're on the topic, I would support the inclusion of an investigative role that randomly (and undisclosed to the player) receives one of the following modifiers:

1. True. Detects players' roles accurately -- basically a stronger Sheriff because it would be able to detect Auditor, Witch, etc.
2. Naive. Always detects its targets as being Town-aligned / not suspicious.
3. Paranoid. Always detects its targets as being Mafia-aligned or being a Neutral Evil.

I imagine these types of tweaks are far off in terms of the mod, but if included, it would allow for greater flexibility in making balanced setups. Specifically, if there is a risk of an unreliable investigative role in the game, then there can be more members of the Town vs. scum roles.

I realize that this would probably not be popular with many of the SC pub players, who already balk at rolling Citizen, Coroner, etc. That said, I think that adding more quasi-TPR roles to the game would be a good thing in terms of opening up play style more, as we have in FMs. This of course is in contrast to most SC2 Mafia games these days where every Town is a TPR and the action is more driven by night actions than it is by day discussion.

[Helz]

I just wish the invest was not so pointless N1. Literally the only thing he can see is a Kidnapper/Jailor

[MattZed]

I just wish the invest was not so pointless N1. Literally the only thing he can see is a Kidnapper/Jailor

Can't he see a Crier/Judge Disturbing the Peace if it happens?

[DarknessB]

I just wish the invest was not so pointless N1. Literally the only thing he can see is a Kidnapper/Jailor

Well, that's also true for Coroners, given no one is dead on Night 1. Agreed through -- Investigators can't do much for at least a night, which is a decent impediment to getting the Town moving early. In an overall sense though, not sure how problematic it is for the SC2 Mafia meta given every Town role is usually set up as a TPR -- i.e. it's not like Forum Mafia where there are only 1-2 townies that typically have a night action.

[Beuzmoker]

I've always wondered why is "Kidnapping and Murder" only one crime and not two ?
And instead of "Detects exact role" option (which is a bit lame imo), why not add an option to give of feedback of all crimes comitted ?

[lingsarecute]

I had started working on an improved crime system. I'll do that again

Btw, i have to ask... Is it possible that the new crime system will ever be implemented in the game?
Because there have been lots of suggestions on this forum suggested even by the mods themselves - but they were never added to the game.
(Last update was... I think like 2 years ago?)

[Slaol]

Our new developer hasn't put anything exciting in but something of clear substance, agreed on by Elixir and myself, should find its place at the top of the list. He then is his own guy and has a life but will come around at some point to plug it in.

[lingsarecute]

Our new developer hasn't put anything exciting in but something of clear substance, agreed on by Elixir and myself, should find its place at the top of the list. He then is his own guy and has a life but will come around at some point to plug it in.

...so we need a developer that doesn't have a life so we can have often updates xDDD

[powerofdeath]

Am I the only one who missed the old way? Doctor/SK, executioner/sheriff, GF/citizen etc?

[DarknessB]

Am I the only one who missed the old way? Doctor/SK, executioner/sheriff, GF/citizen etc?

I miss it too, but Slaol makes a good point that the role was pretty overpowered, in terms of limiting possibilities down to 2-3 roles. Also, it provided scum with a pretty easy roadmap of what alibi to claim if an Investigator accused them of being scum, so in that sense, it sort of limited play in my mind. If the old Investigator was too strong, the new Investigator could use a bit more clarity, especially given the uselessness of a Trespassing lead. Hopefully, whatever improvement is made to the role strikes a good balance between these extremes.

[powerofdeath]

I miss it too, but Slaol makes a good point that the role was pretty overpowered, in terms of limiting possibilities down to 2-3 roles. Also, it provided scum with a pretty easy roadmap of what alibi to claim if an Investigator accused them of being scum, so in that sense, it sort of limited play in my mind. If the old Investigator was too strong, the new Investigator could use a bit more clarity, especially given the uselessness of a Trespassing lead. Hopefully, whatever improvement is made to the role strikes a good balance between these extremes.

I actually have investigator detect exact role in my set up instead of the crimes thing, but I set the weight of that role to 0.1 so chances of getting investigator is pretty low.

[Yukitaka Oni]

I believe there is no need to change commit crime or anything else since when i play with a lot of people, they don't even remember all these crime or action role.
- remember the newbie logic: lynch anyone who is blackmailed. That's already prove they don't have enough (space in their memory) to remember all of these setting

[Yukitaka Oni]

...so we need a developer that doesn't have a life so we can have often updates xDDD

I don't have a life and also a commies, vote me if you want (laugh)

[DarknessB]

I actually have investigator detect exact role in my set up instead of the crimes thing, but I set the weight of that role to 0.1 so chances of getting investigator is pretty low.

I'd be fine with that in a carefully crafted setup with Framers, Bus Drivers, etc. As long as there's some plausible way for scum to claim something else. I suppose scum could also claim that the Investigator is actually a Consigliere, but yeah, agreed that the roll percent would need to be super low if you allow them to detect exact role.

[DarknessB]

I believe there is no need to change commit crime or anything else since when i play with a lot of people, they don't even remember all these crime or action role.
- remember the newbie logic: lynch anyone who is blackmailed. That's already prove they don't have enough (space in their memory) to remember all of these setting

LOL, this is true -- newbies are often TERRIBLE with the new Investigator since it requires cross-referencing the crimes list with the different roles. It's not just spoonfed to them like the old Investigator leads were ("they are either X or Y").

That said, newbies / trolls can be really bad at most roles. I've seen totally nutty stuff like Day 1 Marshall reveal (with no vote), last day Marshall reveal (when it's clearly 2 Triad vs. 1 Marshall -- thanks for not revealing earlier...), Vigilantes acting like Town Serial Killers and shooting randomly without any information, investigative roles that leave no Last Will, Escorts roleblocking confirmed Townies, etc. Roles should probably be designed assuming a minimum amount of player competence, lol.

[Yukitaka Oni]

I'd be fine with that in a carefully crafted setup with Framers, Bus Drivers, etc. As long as there's some plausible way for scum to claim something else. I suppose scum could also claim that the Investigator is actually a Consigliere, but yeah, agreed that the roll percent would need to be super low if you allow them to detect exact role.

I usually pick framer because i will make myself look like a executioner, through the stupid fake ass lead, (evil laugh)

[Yukitaka Oni]

LOL, this is true -- newbies are often TERRIBLE with the new Investigator since it requires cross-referencing the crimes list with the different roles. It's not just spoonfed to them like the old Investigator leads were ("they are either X or Y").

That said, newbies / trolls can be really bad at most roles. I've seen totally nutty stuff like Day 1 Marshall reveal (with no vote), last day Marshall reveal (when it's clearly 2 Triad vs. 1 Marshall), Vigilantes acting like Town Serial Killers and shooting randomly without any information, investigative roles that leave no Last Will, Escorts roleblocking confirmed Townies, etc. Roles should probably be designed assuming a minimum amount of player competence, lol.

Back in the day before join Tafkal, i play seriously and i always want solid intel to lynch scum but.....that only lead to my own stress, angry so when the great Tafkal converted me, now i have no angry but instead laughing at newbie logic and enjoy the show

[DarknessB]

Back in the day before join Tafkal, i play seriously and i always want solid intel to lynch scum but.....that only lead to my own stress, angry so when the great Tafkal converted me, now i have no angry but instead laughing at newbie logic and enjoy the show

Here's the thing -- Mafia has a lot of WIFOM in it, much more so in FM than in the mod of course (where every Townie is typically a TPR). You don't always need solid evidence (i.e. night leads) to lynch someone. Also, hunches / pressuring are often a very good strategy, even in the mod, in terms of reaction testing and attempting to get a role claim.

That said, there's clearly suboptimal play like that list I provided above where there's no logical reason you would do any of those things. I agree that it's fun to watch the shitshow-type games sometimes, especially where it's clear that the Town doesn't stand a chance in hell. It's far more annoying when the Town loses narrowly because 1-2 players quasi-gamethrew with their play, such as the Marshall or Vigilante examples above.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Here's the thing -- Mafia has a lot of WIFOM in it, much more so in FM than in the mod of course (where every Townie is typically a TPR). You don't always need solid evidence (i.e. night leads) to lynch someone. Also, hunches / pressuring are often a very good strategy, even in the mod, in terms of reaction testing and attempting to get a role claim.

That said, there's clearly suboptimal play like that list I provided above where there's no logical reason you would do any of those things. I agree that it's fun to watch the shitshow-type games sometimes, especially where it's clear that the Town doesn't stand a chance in hell. It's far more annoying when the Town loses narrowly because 1-2 players quasi-gamethrew with their play, such as the Marshall or Vigilante examples above.

Now i am
- blacklist all shit town
That's how i enjoy the show

[lingsarecute]

Our new developer hasn't put anything exciting in but something of clear substance, agreed on by Elixir and myself, should find its place at the top of the list. He then is his own guy and has a life but will come around at some point to plug it in.

Btw, can't mods update the map with that new crimes system and just send it to the developer so he uploads it?
I don't think that he's going to add anything on his own...

[Yukitaka Oni]

Btw, can't mods update the map with that new crimes system and just send it to the developer so he uploads it?
I don't think that he's going to add anything on his own...

Dark Revanant is rarely online

[powerofdeath]

Dark Revanant is rarely online

We have a new guy

[Slaol]

Btw, can't mods update the map with that new crimes system and just send it to the developer so he uploads it?
I don't think that he's going to add anything on his own...

Thats the process. But Rev only trusts people with worthy backgeounds to do it

[lingsarecute]

Thats the process. But Rev only trusts people with worthy backgeounds to do it

like who???

[Yukitaka Oni]

Thats the process. But Rev only trusts people with worthy backgeounds to do it

He can't trust me, am a commie