Cult Needs More Roles

[Cryptonic]

Cultist (new option):
Can convert without Cult Leader: Y/N (N prevents spawn from random roles, rolls cult leader instead)



Cult Leader:
---Basically Cultist w/ Override ability---
Immune to attacks: Y/N
Immune to investigation: Y/N
All Cultists (except one) will die upon Cult Leader death: Y/N


Brain Washer
Target one player during the day, jailing them.
You can choose to convert your target, cannot be prevented by Doctor.
You have an anonymous chat with your target.
1 Charge.



Can anyone think of other roles?

[Frog]

Brain washer is a cult kidnapper without the kill. Wouldn't a Yakuza type role make more sense for cult? Brain washer dies to convert jailed target.

[Cryptonic]

Brain washer is a cult kidnapper without the kill. Wouldn't a Yakuza type role make more sense for cult? Brain washer dies to convert jailed target.

Yea Cult Kidnapper that converts instead of kills lol.
Yea a Yak type role would also make sense, but it's basically giving Cult a kill. Unless his converted target becomes Cultist and not another Yak-type role lol Then yes, I would agree that that's also balanced.

[Frog]

Just remembered cult size limits. Brainwasher as you described IS balanced and a great idea. ESP as neut random!!!

[Cryptonic]

I just thought it also acted good as an investigative role for Cult.

[DarknessB]

Could also have an option where the Brain Washer's conversion ignores the Cult size limit (just for his conversion though). Would add further strategy to the role -- i.e. whether it's better to save the convert for later when the cult is bigger vs. immediately using it at the beginning of the game to avoid the Cult getting wiped out in case of an unlucky kill / lynch.

Just remembered cult size limits. Brainwasher as you described IS balanced and a great idea. ESP as neut random!!!

[Yukitaka Oni]

High hope but may i ask? Mason or mason leader also mafia still immune to that (special conversation)?

[DarknessB]

That's an interesting question -- a couple of possibilities in my mind:

1. Brain Washer cannot convert Mason / ML and the target will find out who the Brain Washer is at the end of the Night. This is a similar mechanic to when the Cult tries to convert a Mason / ML. This is my least favorite of the three options because it is a compete nerf to the Brain Washer.

2. Brain Washer can convert Mason / ML and this is an exception to the general rule. Given it's a one-time conversion, I would be okay with this idea.

3. Instead of converting a captured Mason / ML, the Brain Washer executes the Mason / ML instead (i.e. the typical jailor function). There could be some flavor about how the Mason / ML was resistant to conversion so he had to be killed or something. This is a decent idea as well given the Brain Washer's ability is a one-time use. Would also punish the Mason / ML for outing themselves during the day -- currently, there's no disincentive to doing so.

There could also be setup options to allow the host to pick one of these three possibilities.

High hope but may i ask? Mason or mason leader also mafia still immune to that (special conversation)?

[Lysergic]

I like the idea of Brain Washer killing Mason/ML instead of converting. I definitely DON'T like the idea of him converting Masons. The Masons would know right away (unless he kept access to both chats, which would be very confusing), and it seems a bit OP.

[Lysergic]

Also, what about a Poisoner-type role that can poison a target each night. If Cult Leader dies, all poisoned targets also die.

Opens the door to a Jonestown style achievment - get a No One Wins screen as Cult Leader by using -suicide to kill all living players. Though this is also a bit game throwy, so maybe not.

[DarknessB]

Good point -- I didn't think about the Masons knowing right away (by virtue of them losing a member who didn't die) and also, the converted Mason would be able to tell the Cult who all the other Masons are too, which seems OP. I agree that the Brain Washer killing Mason / ML would be the cleanest option then.

I like the idea of Brain Washer killing Mason/ML instead of converting. I definitely DON'T like the idea of him converting Masons. The Masons would know right away (unless he kept access to both chats, which would be very confusing), and it seems a bit OP.

[Lysergic]

Also, what about a Poisoner-type role that can poison a target each night. If Cult Leader dies, all poisoned targets also die.

Opens the door to a Jonestown style achievment - get a No One Wins screen as Cult Leader by using -suicide to kill all living players. Though this is also a bit game throwy, so maybe not.

Actually, a non-Cult-alignment neutral Poisoner who wins with Cult (win con: see the town/Mafia lose) that does this would be sweet.

[Stealthbomber16]

Acolyte
The acolyte can visit someone and gains their ability for the next two nights
This can be done 2 times

Thoughts?

[Slaol]

Not terrible. I've got that name reserved though

[DarknessB]

Interesting -- you said "gains their ability for the next two nights", which makes me think you only intend the Acolyte to gain night action abilities, but not day abilities of roles. Probably better that way because I can imagine how insane it would be for the Acolyte to gain the Mayor's activate / votes, Marshall's activate / lynch ability, or Judge's court ability for 2 days. That would create absolute chaos, lol.

Acolyte
The acolyte can visit someone and gains their ability for the next two nights
This can be done 2 times

Thoughts?

[Stealthbomber16]

Interesting -- you said "gains their ability for the next two nights", which makes me think you only intend the Acolyte to gain night action abilities, but not day abilities of roles. Probably better that way because I can imagine how insane it would be for the Acolyte to gain the Mayor's activate / votes, Marshall's activate / lynch ability, or Judge's court ability for 2 days. That would create absolute chaos, lol.

It would, wouldn't it?

[DarknessB]

Well, it would severely undermine the power of a Mayor / Marshall reveal, as you would never know if it was the real Mayor / Marshall or instead, an Acolyte that stole the Mayor or Marshall's power. You'd basically be creating a counterclaim for Mayor / Marshall, which doesn't currently exist in the game (at least on the turn that the Mayor / Marshall activates).

On the other hand, a Judge's ability being stolen would be strong but less problematic, because the Acolyte would be looking to lynch Town, just as the Judge would -- effectively means two Judges.

You could mitigate this problem by limiting the Acolyte to the remaining uses of the visiting player's abilities -- this would prevent an Acolyte visiting a Vigilante and then being able to shoot two people during the next two nights (assuming the Vigi had already used some shots). Likewise, it would prevent an Acolyte from using up to 2 Marshall lynch rounds for example.

It would, wouldn't it?

[Yukitaka Oni]

Well, it would severely undermine the power of a Mayor / Marshall reveal, as you would never know if it was the real Mayor / Marshall or instead, an Acolyte that stole the Mayor or Marshall's power. You'd basically be creating a counterclaim for Mayor / Marshall, which doesn't currently exist in the game (at least on the turn that the Mayor / Marshall activates).

On the other hand, a Judge's ability being stolen would be strong but less problematic, because the Acolyte would be looking to lynch Town, just as the Judge would -- effectively means two Judges.

You could mitigate this problem by limiting the Acolyte to the remaining uses of the visiting player's abilities -- this would prevent an Acolyte visiting a Vigilante and then being able to shoot two people during the next two nights (assuming the Vigi had already used some shots). Likewise, it would prevent an Acolyte from using up to 2 Marshall lynch rounds for example.

Make just like amnesiac, cannot copy unique role

[lawson]

Cults are OP right now. Convert every night cult is a guaranteed win. ML can have only two saves, which can't stop a cult already 3 deep.

What I'm saying is, if the maker of a save wants to make it so cult wins, he can do it. I can't think of any other faction that can practically guarantee your success with a few checkboxes clicked.

I hate cult, honestly. It turns town into evils. I love playing town, love it. Prefer it every time. Nothing sucks more dick than taking out 3 baddies then being converted.

So look, if you think a cult getting a jailor would be fun, in essence, giving cult an RBer, then you gotta nerf the fuck out of cult. They are OP as fuck right now at "convert every night" setting, and I see it all the time by people "trying to get their cult win".

[Cryptonic]

People making broken saves shouldnt change the fact that the cult should have more roles

[lawson]

Then make it so broken saves aren't an option.

You want to make cult a legitimate faction, with roles that do things and a cult leader that can be immune at night. I think that detracts from what cult is.

Cult is a disease. The role is converting. You kill one, another is converted. If you give it roles, night immunity, all the things normally attributed to Mafia, then you have to nerf it considerably. As it stands, it's OP. You want to make cult NIGHT IMMUNE?! You want to give cult ROLE BLOCKING? So they can RB vigilantes from shooting them, or sheriffs from detecting them, or mafia can't take them out, etc.

They're neutral evil man. If you want to make them a faction, fine, but then they have no place in the standard 9 - 3 - 3 setup. I'm not against your idea, but if you want to make them a full fledged faction they just won't fit in the Neutral Evil category anymore. They would also need to be considerably reworked.

[Slaol]

Then make it so broken saves aren't an option.

You want to make cult a legitimate faction, with roles that do things and a cult leader that can be immune at night. I think that detracts from what cult is.

Cult is a disease. The role is converting. You kill one, another is converted. If you give it roles, night immunity, all the things normally attributed to Mafia, then you have to nerf it considerably. As it stands, it's OP. You want to make cult NIGHT IMMUNE?! You want to give cult ROLE BLOCKING? So they can RB vigilantes from shooting them, or sheriffs from detecting them, or mafia can't take them out, etc.

They're neutral evil man. If you want to make them a faction, fine, but then they have no place in the standard 9 - 3 - 3 setup. I'm not against your idea, but if you want to make them a full fledged faction they just won't fit in the Neutral Evil category anymore. They would also need to be considerably reworked.

We don't compensate for retardation. Every night can work in a setup made for it, so we will allow for that. This isn't soviet Russia until I get mad and start punishing people at random.

[deathworlds]

We don't compensate for retardation.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Fire Lord Slaolzin again."

[Elixir]

Not terrible. I've got that name reserved though

I LIKE HOW NO ONE IN THIS FUCKING THREAD QUESTIONED THIS.

Cultist (new option):
Can convert without Cult Leader: Y/N (N prevents spawn from random roles, rolls cult leader instead)

Cult Leader:
---Basically Cultist w/ Override ability---
Immune to attacks: Y/N
Immune to investigation: Y/N
All Cultists (except one) will die upon Cult Leader death: Y/N

Cult Leader doesnt make sense outside forum mafia. Especially with the suicide thing. There isnt enough players and I dont like immunity roles in the Cult as I elaborate on further below

Brain Washer
Target one player during the day, jailing them.
You can choose to convert your target, cannot be prevented by Doctor.
You have an anonymous chat with your target.
1 Charge.

This is.. potentially passable. Having 4 jailor roles in the game is probably too close to clusterfuck though.

Then make it so broken saves aren't an option.

You want to make cult a legitimate faction, with roles that do things and a cult leader that can be immune at night. I think that detracts from what cult is.

Cult is a disease. The role is converting. You kill one, another is converted. If you give it roles, night immunity, all the things normally attributed to Mafia, then you have to nerf it considerably. As it stands, it's OP. You want to make cult NIGHT IMMUNE?! You want to give cult ROLE BLOCKING? So they can RB vigilantes from shooting them, or sheriffs from detecting them, or mafia can't take them out, etc.

They're neutral evil man. If you want to make them a faction, fine, but then they have no place in the standard 9 - 3 - 3 setup. I'm not against your idea, but if you want to make them a full fledged faction they just won't fit in the Neutral Evil category anymore. They would also need to be considerably reworked.

This also has a lot of merit. At what point do they leave Neutral Evil and become their own fully fledged faction? Right now they do have their own alignment already so it can be argued that they are their own faction as it stands. If we were to add anoter role or two I would probably be advising they have their own menu and to remove them from neutral randoms / give them their own randoms.

I don't think it would be a bad thing for them to become a fully fledged faction. Then you'd be able to legitimately make town v cult setups rather than standard mafia v town set ups. I don't think a full rework would be needed - I just think intelligent role planning to prevent them become mafia 3 with conversion powers.

Starting with just a Cultist in a 9-3-3 should be balancable. Even if they were their own faction.

Following on from that I also don't think its a good idea to homogenize them with a mafia faction by giving them night immune GF roles and shit. I'm not totally against giving them limited killing roles per se - but I agree with lawson ere that immunity isn't what the cult is about. I'm already not liking the fact the Witch Doctor can be invest immune.

People making broken saves shouldnt change the fact that the cult should have more roles

I think there is a way to go about it yes.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Damn straight