SOTD Revised:

[Account]

SOTD causes more leave trains than Necroplant.

If I take the time to make 5 or so balanced 9-3-3 saves, along with one 9-2-2-2 save, and one balanced cult save, can I have my own section setup? I do not want my setups mixed in with the 100% troll mess that SOTD is.

I don't care what you call it.

But calling it "Select to Avoid Leave Train" would be a good idea.

I intend on all assiduously balanced setups, spawn percentages tweaked, minimal particular roles removed from each setup per scenario, using the system as the prime randomizer per game to keep each setup fresh from game to game, and absolutely no setups based on dice-rolling accusations, troll typing to lynch, or random lynching to scum-hunt (like 90% of the current SOTDs).

Every setup will be very meticulously modified for balance (from spawn percentages to minimal set roles based on that particular scenario). I will take my time and put in a great deal of effort for the moderators to swiftly copy and implement this.

I won't, however, do this if my setups are not its own category.

Rough draft:

- The majority of the 9-3-3's will be with Mafia (or Triad) with Godfather/Dragon Head+Sheriff+Investigator+Doctor as the only confirmed roles with all role possibilities to a degree except for Cultist or Witch Doctor, only 1 Citizen possible tops in Town Random, and with Citizen and Mason spawn percentages extremely low (less than 5% Citizen, less than 1% Mason), and Veteran and Mass Murderer spawn percentages less than 7% each.

- One 9-3-3 will replace the set Sheriff+Investigator with a set Detective and a Coroner, while the Mafia (or Triad) will have a set Triad Deception to only be either a Disguiser/Informant or Janitor/Incense Master.

- One 9-3-3 will replace the Town Killing with a set Veteran and the Neutral Killing with a set Mass Murderer.

- One 9-3-3 will have a set Crier and a set Judge.

- The 9-2-2-2 will have a set Spy able to see all Mafia/Triad targets (which I have off in every other setup), with the Mafia and the Triad being 1 Godfather/Dragon Head and 1 Mafia/Triad Support, with the Neutrals being one Neutral Evil that includes Killing and one Neutral Benign.

- The cult setup will include a set Mason Leader, a set Citizen, a set Investigator, a set Lookout, two set Cultists with 'one night between conversions', no Town Killings, no Mafia/Triad, one Neutral Evil that includes killing, and one Neutral Benign; OR, the two Neutrals will be on Auditor and one Witch (meaning, no deaths at night unless by the Mason Leader, along with requiring one additional lynch for the Town to win... Auditor actually does make Cultist/Mason setups more interesting, because the Auditor takes priority in night actions and when a player is audited into a Citizen, he can be converted to Cultist/Mason that very night).

- I will make a minimum of 5 setups and a maximum of 10. Up to you guys how many you want me to do to have its own category.

Let me know!

I'm Account.224 on bnet.

[Account]

Up to them. I'm only offering. I have my save and it never causes leave train so long as I have host. I even have very quick modifications I can make to move into the others that still fall into balance with my spawn percentages, which take me less than 10 seconds tops to modify before starting.

SOTD is mainly Aldaris anyway. Every single setup of his is god awful. So many times I've seen the leave train occur after it displays a setup "by Aldaris" before the name selection.

If no one wants me to do this, then I won't. More time for me to do whatever I want. Don't care. Only offering.

I will ALWAYS leave every time SOTD starts. Always. 100%. I've played them all. They are all troll nightmares. Every single one of them. Even "Standard" is NOT standard.

I'm guessing all the players who know how to prepare setups just didn't care to take the time to donate their setups to SOTD. I didn't do it, because it's random, so there's still a chance that loading SOTD will give me one of the troll saves, so I never did it. If I ever pick SOTD, I want to know every single setup there is worth playing.

And that's where I volunteer to come in.

I also do not care in the least about credit. Don't display who made the category. Name it whatever you want. I don't care. I only want legitimate setups and for leave trains to slow down. My setups have always, ALWAYS, been preferred by players when I'm in the game, three years running. I do it for the game, because it IS the game. Current SOTD is... I don't know what it is. Taking turns flipping a coin? Rolling dice on the street? A Caps Lock spam contest? I don't even know, but they are certainly not the game that's worth playing.

I've also proven balance, time after time, by winning as any side, any role, time and time again in the same types of setups. My setups are based on player talent and experience. There will always be an aspect of luck in every game. But as long as each investigative doesn't happen to luck out and find all scum on n1 and n2, those who are victorious did it through their own skill (or the lack of the opponents').

[Aldaris]

I'm going to make a few General Comments to you in response to your above posts.

1. 9 3 3 Save does not mean balance.

9 3 3 is a style that people seem to like for now for a certain range of setups. If you look at Chicago and talk to some people, you'll notice that Chicago is 8 4 3 with no lw and according to the developers they believe it's more balanced than 9 3 3. Again. 9 3 3 is just a style, it does not mean balance.

2. Practical balance is an informed opinion; real balance requires a LOT! of testing. Most people throw the word balance around here like it's an obvious truth that everyone agrees on; it's not. There's balance as in overall % chance of one faction winning, balance as overall % chance of a non-town faction winning, balance of one role affecting the overall balance in a range of setups, etc. Really determining win % ratios for a particular setup and having it be statistically significant requires a lot of testing for just one setup type. Most of us here don't have the time or the interest level to do the required to know what is actually balanced TM!

3. Different is not Troll.

Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean that it's troll. Different does not mean troll.

4. Aldaris Setups are all Tested

Seriously, you make a lot of ignorant statements about my setups. They're all tested multiple times; they're all analyzed; they're all tweaked; feedback is given for every setup which affects the final result. And, setups may be modified later for balance and other reasons which has happened already.

5. Most setups are not Aldaris ones and the SOTDs submitted are great.

Seriously, most of my setups have been moved to Advanced. Most setups on any of the 3 SOTD Types aren't mine. I have fun with all of them anyway.

6. You're being a Hypocrite

I used to leave games when someone picked a setup I didn't like. I realized that I hated when people did that to me and that it can ruin my games when people leave and that I shouldn't do it. So before you go on, you should look in the mirror and be sure that all of your actions are about being part of the solution and being helpful.

7. If you have setups you want to submit, submit them.

So yeah, if you have setup ideas, great! Go work them out, go test them, get feedback from them, tweak them, test them more, get more feedback, tweak them more, and submit them on the forums. Don't do it out of spite. Do it because you have interesting contributions to make to the community.

SOTD causes more leave trains than Necroplant.

If I take the time to make 5 or so balanced 9-3-3 saves, along with one 9-2-2-2 save, and one balanced cult save, can I have my own section setup? I do not want my setups mixed in with the 100% troll mess that SOTD is.

I don't care what you call it.

But calling it "Select to Avoid Leave Train" would be a good idea.

I intend on all assiduously balanced setups, spawn percentages tweaked, minimal particular roles removed from each setup per scenario, using the system as the prime randomizer per game to keep each setup fresh from game to game, and absolutely no setups based on dice-rolling accusations, troll typing to lynch, or random lynching to scum-hunt (like 90% of the current SOTDs).

Every setup will be very meticulously modified for balance (from spawn percentages to minimal set roles based on that particular scenario). I will take my time and put in a great deal of effort for the moderators to swiftly copy and implement this.

I won't, however, do this if my setups are not its own category.

Rough draft:

- The majority of the 9-3-3's will be with Mafia (or Triad) with Godfather/Dragon Head+Sheriff+Investigator+Doctor as the only confirmed roles with all role possibilities to a degree except for Cultist or Witch Doctor, only 1 Citizen possible tops in Town Random, and with Citizen and Mason spawn percentages extremely low (less than 5% Citizen, less than 1% Mason), and Veteran and Mass Murderer spawn percentages less than 7% each.

- One 9-3-3 will replace the set Sheriff+Investigator with a set Detective and a Coroner, while the Mafia (or Triad) will have a set Triad Deception to only be either a Disguiser/Informant or Janitor/Incense Master.

- One 9-3-3 will replace the Town Killing with a set Veteran and the Neutral Killing with a set Mass Murderer.

- One 9-3-3 will have a set Crier and a set Judge.

- The 9-2-2-2 will have a set Spy able to see all Mafia/Triad targets (which I have off in every other setup), with the Mafia and the Triad being 1 Godfather/Dragon Head and 1 Mafia/Triad Support, with the Neutrals being one Neutral Evil that includes Killing and one Neutral Benign.

- The cult setup will include a set Mason Leader, a set Citizen, a set Investigator, a set Lookout, two set Cultists with 'one night between conversions', no Town Killings, no Mafia/Triad, one Neutral Evil that includes killing, and one Neutral Benign; OR, the two Neutrals will be on Auditor and one Witch (meaning, no deaths at night unless by the Mason Leader, along with requiring one additional lynch for the Town to win... Auditor actually does make Cultist/Mason setups more interesting, because the Auditor takes priority in night actions and when a player is audited into a Citizen, he can be converted to Cultist/Mason that very night).

- I will make a minimum of 5 setups and a maximum of 10. Up to you guys how many you want me to do to have its own category.

Let me know!

I'm Account.224 on bnet.

[Account]

I'm going to make a few General Comments to you in response to your above posts.

1. 9 3 3 Save does not mean balance.

9 3 3 is a style that people seem to like for now for a certain range of setups. If you look at Chicago and talk to some people, you'll notice that Chicago is 8 4 3 with no lw and according to the developers they believe it's more balanced than 9 3 3. Again. 9 3 3 is just a style, it does not mean balance.

2. Practical balance is an informed opinion; real balance requires a LOT! of testing. Most people throw the word balance around here like it's an obvious truth that everyone agrees on; it's not. There's balance as in overall % chance of one faction winning, balance as overall % chance of a non-town faction winning, balance of one role affecting the overall balance in a range of setups, etc. Really determining win % ratios for a particular setup and having it be statistically significant requires a lot of testing for just one setup type. Most of us here don't have the time or the interest level to do the required to know what is actually balanced TM!

3. Different is not Troll.

Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean that it's troll. Different does not mean troll.

4. Aldaris Setups are all Tested

Seriously, you make a lot of ignorant statements about my setups. They're all tested multiple times; they're all analyzed; they're all tweaked; feedback is given for every setup which affects the final result. And, setups may be modified later for balance and other reasons which has happened already.

5. Most setups are not Aldaris ones and the SOTDs submitted are great.

Seriously, most of my setups have been moved to Advanced. Most setups on any of the 3 SOTD Types aren't mine. I have fun with all of them anyway.

6. You're being a Hypocrite

I used to leave games when someone picked a setup I didn't like. I realized that I hated when people did that to me and that it can ruin my games when people leave and that I shouldn't do it. So before you go on, you should look in the mirror and be sure that all of your actions are about being part of the solution and being helpful.

7. If you have setups you want to submit, submit them.

So yeah, if you have setup ideas, great! Go work them out, go test them, get feedback from them, tweak them, test them more, get more feedback, tweak them more, and submit them on the forums. Don't do it out of spite. Do it because you have interesting contributions to make to the community.

What does "tested" mean? Is that like saying: "Hi. I typed a sentence. Then I read it to confirm it's a sentence. TESTED."

Get real. SOTD is horrible. Ask the entire community. I am willing to submit up to 10 incredible and popular saves. I simply want them in their own category so everyone knows what they are getting when they click my setups (i.e. a balanced, reasonable, well-made setup from crowds of experience and the level of popularity that aided in putting SC2 Mafia in the top 10 of custom games).

[Aldaris]

Again, you're speaking from ignorance. Testing means played a version of the setup. All my saves have been tested many times. Most saves submitted by others fall under this category of lots of testing as well.

You're shifting the goalposts. I'll add another one.

8. Popularity is not balance

Seriously, don't shift the goal posts and get popularity and balance mixed up. My save Parliament is the most balanced setup of all by definition. All sides have a roughly equal chance of winning. Some people like it.; Some people don't, but this has nothing to do with the setup's inherent balance.

9. Not every setup is for everyone and that's good.

10. No one is omniscient

You speak with a lot of authority on things you don't know yet. You don't know if a setup is balanced or popular untilit gets tested and played.

Some people like john rambo. Some don't. Some people Like chicago. Some don't. More setups allow more ways to play the game for different people. Just because some people may not like a particular setup does not make that setup unbalanced or "bad".

[Account]

Get. Real.

[Xentios]

This time i will write in colors so dr wont miss it. Sorry did not read the post it is too long for me but will read later.

Sotd basic should give %100, a nice boring 9-3-3 save.
Sotd inter should give only sotd inter setups. Which are liked by veteran players but not for noobs.
Sotd advanced should be a setup hell. I don't care what happens there.

-default command should need 5-6 players for 15 player.

Also you can upgrade the command in a way


-default basic=-default
-default inter
-default advance

Lets say 2 wrote "-default basic", 3 wrote ,"default inter" and 1 wrote "default advance"
the game takes all of them as "-default" command so 6 player voted "-default" so now game choose "sotd:intern"

This will make many people who says sotd is bad will go away.

[Aldaris]

Xentios,

I'm sure Dark Revenant saw your original post. Expand your mind a bit. There's no "setup hell" around here. The main issue is that we have two different goals at hand.

Goal 1. Get a random setup from a set of setups

This is huge. Epic Mafia doesn't have this. No mafia game has this. It is very nice to not have to choose a setup and get surprised by what you get.

Goal 2. Be able to choose from more Predefined Setups

SC2 Mafia already has several Predefined setups. This is great. SOTD just adds more options to this. People also want to be able to choose from a larger list of setups to play the game with.

Proposed Solution

SOTD should open up a menu. It should list every setup in the SOTD system and have checkboxes for include/exclude just like roles do. Every Setup should have an adjustable weight just like roles do. In this way, you can change Dark Revenants weights, excluding some setups you don't like, but leave the others for random generation and so forth. When you type -save, you would save your presets for SOTD games as well as roles.

In this way you leave the arbitrariness of calling a Setup Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, etc. while allowing people to directly choose the SOTD they want to play while letting them adjust the random parameters of the SOTDs they will potentially get.

[Xentios]

Well it is hard to implement but a system like Sc2 Map selection can work as you said. Every player can have a list of prefered setups. When sotd choosen game selects the most prefered setups and randoms 1 of them. Extremly hard work if you ask me but it is also good. The only problem is adding new setups and make people play them.

[AppleyNO]

Yea, I agree there are some problems with SotD, but I don't think DR will make a section just for you :P

Xen, the reason an Aldaris setup almost always rolls is because he has posted many setups. Balanced or not, DR decided to add them. You could do the same :P

Also, we have a bigger problem. No one likes SotD. There is a reason Xen calls his solution "Select to Avoid a Leave Train", because people would rather remake the game than play SotD. Combating that mentality will be the hardest part of fixing SotD.

[Account]

Yea, I agree there are some problems with SotD, but I don't think DR will make a section just for you :P

Xen, the reason an Aldaris setup almost always rolls is because he has posted many setups. Balanced or not, DR decided to add them. You could do the same :P

Also, we have a bigger problem. No one likes SotD. There is a reason Xen calls his solution "Select to Avoid a Leave Train", because people would rather remake the game than play SotD. Combating that mentality will be the hardest part of fixing SotD.

This is part of the point I'm trying to make. It's not "just for me". It's for the community.

I want no citation. I want no credit. I don't care what the section is called.

I simply don't want perfectly sound setups mixed in with any of the SOTD section (something any player would want as well). All three are garbage. This many setups in SOTD are good setups:

0

This many are decent:

0

This many are worth playing even as a newbie:

0

My setups can be "tested" and evaluated and whatever all need be to "make the cut" of having their own section. That's up to the moderation and/or polls.

I'm simply saying: I will not take the hours and hours of time doing this (i.e. making each setup, tweaking each one, posting them in the format requested by the web site, etc.) just to have them lumped in with the garbage setups on SOTD.

I don't care if SOTD stays either. Just add a section if it makes things easier. Call it whatever you want.

I'm WILLING to do this work. I simply want the moderation's word that they won't be thrown in with the garbage that the SOTD sections are. Players deserve to know what they are getting. SOTD is a complete mixture, in every section, with each setup having little to do with one another, and the majority of them being either pure random dice-rolling wastes of time, like playing "Chutes and Ladders", or, so pre-set that a role call would win the game, or, stacked hard for a particular side; all of which defeats the purpose of logic and deceit in "Mafia".

If anyone else wants to help me out, I'd be more than accepting. I just want to make sure all modifications to any setups of this particular section are agreed upon together by me and anyone helping. I already have a detailed idea and all reasoning of each setup right now though. I've played long enough and set up the game (and modified in-game when a player or two or three drop or leave) to know what it takes to make a good game.

[Xentios]

@Account What you saying is same as what i am saying Sotd:Basic with %100 chance giving basic setups is what you want. Also making a balanced setup for 9-3-3 is not that hard. The hard part is making it different.

PS:For who dont know ,Sotd basic has a chance to give Sotd:advance setups. At least it was if it is changed.

[Dark.Revenant]

SotD basic currently spawns Basic and a few Intermediate setups.

In any case there's a SotD voting thread in R&D right now that is thinning the herd of SotDs.

[Aldaris]

I simply don't want perfectly sound setups mixed in with any of the SOTD section (something any player would want as well). All three are garbage. This many setups in SOTD are good setups

We don't need a separate section for Account setups.

My setups can be "tested" and evaluated and whatever all need be to "make the cut" of having their own section. That's up to the moderation and/or polls.

I'm simply saying: I will not take the hours and hours of time doing this (i.e. making each setup, tweaking each one, posting them in the format requested by the web site, etc.)

You're being a hypocrite here. You've accused SOTD makers of not testing setups (which is false) and they do not know what a good setup is.

Again, no one is omniscient and you don't know what the ideal is necessarily even after testing. If you're not testing, then you lack some sincerity in trying to provide "good setups" to the community.

I'm WILLING to do this work. I simply want the moderation's word that they won't be thrown in with the garbage that the SOTD sections are. Players deserve to know what they are getting.

Again, there's little value to a completely new section called "Account Setups". As stated before, if you have good contributions to make, go make them!

SOTD is a complete mixture, in every section, with each setup having little to do with one another, and the majority of them being either pure random dice-rolling wastes of time, like playing "Chutes and Ladders", or, so pre-set that a role call would win the game, or, stacked hard for a particular side; all of which defeats the purpose of logic and deceit in "Mafia".

This has already been responded to, there's a lot of strategy in most of these setups. You would discover it if you weren't breaking the spirit of the game and leavetraining and insist that the game can only be played in the ways you preconceived.

If anyone else wants to help me out, I'd be more than accepting. I just want to make sure all modifications to any setups of this particular section are agreed upon together by me and anyone helping. I already have a detailed idea and all reasoning of each setup right now though. I've played long enough and set up the game (and modified in-game when a player or two or three drop or leave) to know what it takes to make a good game.

Why don't you make a Setup Creation Brainstorming Thread and ask for feedback?

[Account]

We don't need a separate section for Account setups.


You're being a hypocrite here. You've accused SOTD makers of not testing setups (which is false) and they do not know what a good setup is.

Again, no one is omniscient and you don't know what the ideal is necessarily even after testing. If you're not testing, then you lack some sincerity in trying to provide "good setups" to the community.



Again, there's little value to a completely new section called "Account Setups". As stated before, if you have good contributions to make, go make them!



This has already been responded to, there's a lot of strategy in most of these setups. You would discover it if you weren't breaking the spirit of the game and leavetraining and insist that the game can only be played in the ways you preconceived.



Why don't you make a Setup Creation Brainstorming Thread and ask for feedback?

Can you just, like, go away?

[AppleyNO]

Bashing on other players is just gonna make you look like a bad guy on the forums. You're just gonna have to live with the options given to you at this point.

^^ Final Warning Xen :P

In any case, there is a voting thread going on, right now, in Research and Development.

[Account]

I didn't bashed this many people: 0. Dude is trolling my suggestion. I have no idea who he even is.

The setups suck. Get better ones. I have better ones. I will give better ones. I don't want them with the bad ones (i.e. every SOTD setup).

That's the point of everyone syllable I've typed here. Any other misperception: re-read every syllable I've typed here.

And Appley, I can't view that forum? How do I vote?

[AppleyNO]

I didn't bashed this many people: 0. Dude is trolling my suggestion. I have no idea who he even is.

The setups suck. Get better ones. I have better ones. I will give better ones. I don't want them with the bad ones (i.e. every SOTD setup).

That's the point of everyone syllable I've typed here. Any other misperception: re-read every syllable I've typed here.

And Appley, I can't view that forum? How do I vote?

Donate

Or wait. I think DR is going to open voting soon.

[Hypersniper]

Hey account post 40 Stod setups and your setups will almost always get picked

But really can put a cap on how many stods u can publish because if account is rightvon one thing it's

Aldaris setups= leave train=can't play-there like 15-20 aldaris setups everyone with a leave train

[Account]

Donate... just to get thrown into a bunch of bogus setups?

[Hypersniper]

Make a option called aldaris STD setups just for fun

[AppleyNO]

Donate... just to get thrown into a bunch of bogus setups?

You can downvote things too, something that we have taken advantage of. Lets just say a lot of setups might disappear.

[Account]

How do I downvote?

[AppleyNO]

How do I downvote?

In the thread, you would just say the name of the setup you want down voted.

[Aldaris]

You know guys there is a sotd discussion thread. If you have specific feedback on how to make individual saves better, post it there. Enough idle talk and unconstructive whining.

[ika]

You know guys there is a sotd discussion thread. If you have specific feedback on how to make individual saves better, post it there. Enough idle talk and unconstructive whining.

Thats why R&D exist also... Like apple said, a lot of setups will most likely be wiped in the update.

[ShadowLing]

Okay,I know I'm a bit late, but I have just a few words to say,

I entirely Agree with Xen, I'm tired of having to remake the lobby each time someone chooses setup of the day and we get a bad setup, we need to figure this out for the majority of people.
Most people want a balanced 9-3-3 or 9-2-2-2 save, the people that want crazy saves are generally the minority in any given lobby.

now, I know you're just going to say sotd basic is basically that, the main problem I have with the sotd basic saves is that they don't have the new roles (judge and auditor)
but other than that I really don't know why people don't just choose basic everygame, especially when nobody has a legit save, they always have to go to advanced or intermediate for some odd reason

[Aldaris]

Ok, then why don't you all make, test, and submit some basic sotd saves. I'm tempted to do so some myself.

[ShadowLing]

;/

yeah appley is right about the whole mentality of sotd thing.

tbh you can thank aldaris, no offense.

[Tony]

Aldaris is the biggest troll in Mafia.

[Account]

Ok, then why don't you all make, test, and submit some basic sotd saves. I'm tempted to do so some myself.

Don't you get it? SOTD is the problem. Mix good setups with SOTD = still a problem.

This isn't "SOTD" discussion. This is: "make a new setup section" discussion.

The 9-3-3 in SOTD is NOT "9-3-3"; it is mass random garbage with 9 town, 3 hitmen, and 3 neutrals. That is not "standard" 9-3-3.

Standard 9-3-3 = exactly what I typed in the first post of this thread.

[Space Milk]

Don't you get it? SOTD is the problem. Mix good setups with SOTD = still a problem.

This isn't "SOTD" discussion. This is: "make a new setup section" discussion.

The 9-3-3 in SOTD is NOT "9-3-3"; it is mass random garbage with 9 town, 3 hitmen, and 3 neutrals. That is not "standard" 9-3-3.

Standard 9-3-3 = exactly what I typed in the first post of this thread.

LOL if you guys want STANDARD 9-3-3 then do Classic. THAT IS "standard" 100%, yet people don't want it, they don't know what they want. SOTD is fine, the people are not.
SOTD should be the place where people go for some new and exciting saves, not for something standard, which has been right there all along, classic.

[Account]

LOL if you guys want STANDARD 9-3-3 then do Classic. THAT IS "standard" 100%, yet people don't want it, they don't know what they want. SOTD is fine, the people are not.
SOTD should be the place where people go for some new and exciting saves, not for something standard, which has been right there all along, classic.

Sure isn't. Check it.

[AppleyNO]

LOL if you guys want STANDARD 9-3-3 then do Classic. THAT IS "standard" 100%, yet people don't want it, they don't know what they want. SOTD is fine, the people are not.
SOTD should be the place where people go for some new and exciting saves, not for something standard, which has been right there all along, classic.

Classic is Mafioso, Citizen, Doctor, Sheriff, and Consort. Its not standard.

[Account]

Classic is Mafioso, Citizen, Doctor, Sheriff, and Consort. Its not standard.

-----^