The Problem of Evil
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  1. ISO #1

    The Problem of Evil

    "1. God exists.
    2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
    3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
    4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
    5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
    6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
    7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
    8. Evil exists."


    Discuss
    Last edited by BrockSamson; September 21st, 2013 at 06:39 PM.

  2. ISO #2

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
    An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
    You're making a leap in your logic here. While christianity might want to make its followers believe that God is all-powerful, it's not necessarily true even if he does exist.

    A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
    As the faithful might argue, God doesn't intervene with any and all evil because one can't truly be good without ever having to face the temptation of evil (see: adam and eve). He doesn't command mankind with an iron fist, but leaves them to live free. Only to judge them after death. Additionally, redemption is a possibility in some cases even if evil is committed this way. Life is considered to be a test for what lies beyond.

    If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
    If by good you mean an intolerant tyrant that allows its subjects no freedom whatsoever, then sure.
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    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by BrockSamson View Post
    "1. God exists.
    2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
    3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
    4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
    5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
    6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
    7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
    8. Evil exists."


    Discuss
    Well to kinda almost break it down to nothing is that there is no proof of god. this is saying that god does exist, while i do respect people that belive in god my view is diffrent in that it is a higer power. wether its god or not is another thing.

    if i take the hypotetical god is true or things like this, i veiw it as that he allows evil to roam becasue there needs to be a balence between it. its like the sense of yin and yang one exist becasue of the other

    i always looked at it as a balence

    order and chaos
    good and evil
    light and dark
    yin and yang

    if one becomes out of ballenced then it become i want to say "wrong" im not exactly sure of the word but i hope you kinda know what i mean by that.

    Thats my veiw on it at least

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    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Evil is a problem for man, not for the god. The god is excused because of below:

    ---------------
    "3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils."

    This suggest evil exists.

    Actually evil doesn't really 'exist' except in our common sense.
    As stated by op, since god is the only uncreated thing in the universe, it shall knows everything of evil.

    However,
    If anyone really want to follow the lore 1&2, they must recognize that evil is created as a paradox of good.

    God created nothing bad as a good being.

    Therefore, Evil is just a by product of creating good. Sins is just a quality of a inferior version of good.

    Therefore, evil is created, eliminatable and reducible.

    Being evil is just the start part of being alive and created.
    Being evil is a state for current lift style, it will change eventually and independently.

    A perfect universe with an ultimate good origin can never go bad, especially when it is created by a perfect good being.

    Thinking of that a flawed world is created by a almighty being doesn't lead you anywhere.

    Therefore, conclusion are 2:

    1. god has no Need to stop 'evil' on a large scale of universe
    2. god already tried its best to make its work, the only unsatisfied are only mankind

    either way, then the conflicts in op's list isn't a real problem.

    It is a conflict paradox created by mankind, the common sense and theology.

    If there is a real believer and follower of an almighty good god, he or she shall never doubt that the world will become better because it is the work of god, even the end is painfully Armageddon.

    I am partly an atheist, just trying my best to understand the God at current broadest definition.

    A better way to understand evil as another ultimate end is asking Persians. I heard they had a god of evil battling the good god Mazda or something.

    If the problem is balance, ask Taoism. It is the way.
    Last edited by louiswill; September 21st, 2013 at 11:12 PM.
    When we talked about pubs, we are talking about us.
    When they talked about pubs, they exclude themselves.
    They say only bad players want to modify citizens, and they do not satisfy bad players.
    Are we bad players? We include bad players, but that is just a part of us.
    ---They put veteran, mayor, allowed jester to visit for nothing, and they regretted and say those things are brainless.

  8. ISO #8

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by louiswill View Post
    Evil is a problem for man, not for the god. The god is excused because of below:

    ---------------
    "3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils."

    This suggest evil exists.

    Actually evil doesn't really 'exist' except in our common sense.
    As stated by op, since god is the only uncreated thing in the universe, it shall knows everything of evil.

    However,
    If anyone really want to follow the lore 1&2, they must recognize that evil is created as a paradox of good.

    God created nothing bad as a good being.

    Therefore, Evil is just a by product of creating good. Sins is just a quality of a inferior version of good.

    Therefore, evil is created, eliminatable and reducible.

    Being evil is just the start part of being alive and created.
    Being evil is a state for current lift style, it will change eventually and independently.

    A perfect universe with an ultimate good origin can never go bad, especially when it is created by a perfect good being.

    Thinking of that a flawed world is created by a almighty being doesn't lead you anywhere.

    Therefore, conclusion are 2:

    1. god has no Need to stop 'evil' on a large scale of universe
    2. god already tried its best to make its work, the only unsatisfied are only mankind

    either way, then the conflicts in op's list isn't a real problem.

    It is a conflict paradox created by mankind, the common sense and theology.

    If there is a real believer and follower of an almighty good god, he or she shall never doubt that the world will become better because it is the work of god, even the end is painfully Armageddon.

    I am partly an atheist, just trying my best to understand the God at current broadest definition.

    A better way to understand evil as another ultimate end is asking Persians. I heard they had a god of evil battling the good god Mazda or something.

    If the problem is balance, ask Taoism. It is the way.
    Another way of thinking about it, and one that's often used by Christians to solve this paradox, is by defining evil as the absence of good, much like cold is actually the absence of heat.

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    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaCrown View Post
    Another way of thinking about it, and one that's often used by Christians to solve this paradox, is by defining evil as the absence of good, much like cold is actually the absence of heat.
    exactly, basically, a theory adjusting good and evil will serve the purpose, since it is original a problem of reasoning.
    When we talked about pubs, we are talking about us.
    When they talked about pubs, they exclude themselves.
    They say only bad players want to modify citizens, and they do not satisfy bad players.
    Are we bad players? We include bad players, but that is just a part of us.
    ---They put veteran, mayor, allowed jester to visit for nothing, and they regretted and say those things are brainless.

  11. ISO #11

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    The problem with Good and Evil is simply perspectives. How can one truly say that something is Good? God claims to be the perfect Good, but what if it's a trick it is actually Evil. How can they define Evil? An Evil thing would believe a Good thing is Evil and vice verse.

    Good and Evil is merely commonplace interests. What purpose does it serve?

    For all everyone knows, all these bibles could actually be your Devil convincing you to follow his own path, for it itself could actually be a God as well.

    I'm not atheist, I merely don't worship. God-ship itself is Evil in my eyes and I believe Gods shall eventually be usurped by Man in time if it hasn't been already. For why must one bow down to something stronger than oneself? It's called Tyranny.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    Look what you have caused. Seems like everyone who posted is now confused about their own gender and are venting their frustration into opinions.

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    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by louiswill View Post
    exactly, basically, a theory adjusting good and evil will serve the purpose, since it is original a problem of reasoning.
    Simplistic reasoning dealing with absolutes cannot be applied in real life. Will serve more to confuse and deceive instead of helping and guiding.

  14. ISO #14

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Good and Evil is just an invention of mankind. Omnipotent beings are free of it. I highly doubt a god feels a need to judge anyone. Why would a god give a flying fuck about mankind? Why would he judge them after they die? Humanity just thinks too highly of itself while watching how others die to starvation, war and sickness.

    Why would any god "love" us? Lol. I don't even...

    Tricking yourself into believing that there is something waiting for you after you died just to make your life more comfortable. Yeah. Yeah... The human mind is a bitch.
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    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Glip View Post
    Because, supposedly, he created us, and therefore thinks of us as his children. Like we're family, y'know? You're supposed to love family, right?
    You don't "create" your family and we have no other choice than to like them because of nature. Why should a god who created nature have to live with the same rules?
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  18. ISO #18

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by CmG View Post
    You don't "create" your family and we have no other choice than to like them because of nature. Why should a god who created nature have to live with the same rules?
    Last I heard, a family happened when a man and a woman get together to have sex and make (read "create") a baby. IF you don't like that, I'm sure if you put a lot of hard work into making anything (some engineering/art/programming project? Anything you cared about making and put a lot of effort into), you wouldn't suddenly stop caring about it after you finished it, and just toss it in the first trash can you come by afterwards.

    If God created nature, then it would stand to reason that nature would have elements of God's character/personality in it. I believe it's said in the Christian religions that God created Man "in his own image," which, since it doesn't seem to really mean LOOK like him, perhaps means ACT like him. Which if it does, I guess you gotta say he really kinda failed there

    A different argument: If God created nature, why would he create a nature with "rules" that he didn't agree with?
    Last edited by Glip; September 22nd, 2013 at 10:50 AM.

  19. ISO #19

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by BrockSamson View Post
    "1. God exists.
    2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
    3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
    4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
    5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
    6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
    7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
    8. Evil exists."


    Discuss
    Something to consider:
    Brock's proposal comes to a contradiction in 8 steps. That means one of these 8 steps must be false. Which part do you think is a false assumption?

    I think 3-5 are sound propositions. 6 follows from 5, and 7 follows from 6. For the sake of argument, let's just assume 1 is true in some way (otherwise it's kind of a moot argument). Not necessarily the Judeo-Christian God, just some definition of God.

    So that leaves 2 and 8.

    We've mostly been discussing the possible situations that would imply 8 being false. What are your thoughts on 2 being false? Is "God" not omniscient, not omnipotent, or not perfectly good?

    Let's take an example. Say "God" is just the collection of all laws of physics and the boundary conditions of the universe. Then God is omniscient, because the laws of physics must "know" everything about every particle to be able to operate. God is omnipotent because nothing can bypass the laws of physics. But, because God is not sentient, God is not perfectly good.

  20. ISO #20

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Glip View Post
    Last I heard, a family happened when a man and a woman get together to have sex and make (read "create") a baby. IF you don't like that, I'm sure if you put a lot of hard work into making anything (some engineering/art/programming project? Anything you cared about making and put a lot of effort into), you wouldn't suddenly stop caring about it after you finished it, and just toss it in the first trash can you come by afterwards.

    If God created nature, then it would stand to reason that nature would have elements of God's character/personality in it. I believe it's said in the Christian religions that God created Man "in his own image," which, since it doesn't seem to really mean LOOK like him, perhaps means ACT like him. Which if it does, I guess you gotta say he really kinda failed there

    A different argument: If God created nature, why would he create a nature with "rules" that he didn't agree with?
    I see you are behaving as usual. I don't feel the need to argue with you on an elementary school level.
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  21. ISO #21

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by CmG View Post
    I see you are behaving as usual. I don't feel the need to argue with you on an elementary school level.
    Instead of telling me why I'm wrong or where my logical fallacies are, you just say "you think like an elementary school kid." Okay then. No point in me having a discussion with you either.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaCrown View Post
    Something to consider:
    Brock's proposal comes to a contradiction in 8 steps. That means one of these 8 steps must be false. Which part do you think is a false assumption?

    I think 3-5 are sound propositions. 6 follows from 5, and 7 follows from 6. For the sake of argument, let's just assume 1 is true in some way (otherwise it's kind of a moot argument). Not necessarily the Judeo-Christian God, just some definition of God.

    So that leaves 2 and 8.

    We've mostly been discussing the possible situations that would imply 8 being false. What are your thoughts on 2 being false? Is "God" not omniscient, not omnipotent, or not perfectly good?

    Let's take an example. Say "God" is just the collection of all laws of physics and the boundary conditions of the universe. Then God is omniscient, because the laws of physics must "know" everything about every particle to be able to operate. God is omnipotent because nothing can bypass the laws of physics. But, because God is not sentient, God is not perfectly good.
    Then it becomes a question of how we are defining "perfectly good". Your definition seems to require sentience. Why is that? For something to be truly good it must willfully choose to be so? It must be aware of concepts of good and evil and consciously choose good?

    I think we need a more precise definition of what it is to simply be "good" in order to make sense of "perfectly good."
    Last edited by Glip; September 22nd, 2013 at 11:19 AM.

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    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by CarolinaCrown View Post
    Something to consider:
    Brock's proposal comes to a contradiction in 8 steps. That means one of these 8 steps must be false. Which part do you think is a false assumption?
    "1. God exists. Well, we need to start with some assumption... next!
    2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good. Continuation of 1, describing 1... next!
    3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils. Assuming lore from Abrahamic faiths... FALSE. He left a devil loose and allow us to make "choices"
    4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence. Likely. Must be true if 2 is true.
    5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence. Perhaps. But then he left Satan to fall into depravity? And allowed men to do evil deeds? Intentional or powerless? Must choose intentional so that 2 remains true.
    6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil. If he wants to do so... like appointing Prophets to lead men back to the "right" path...
    7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists. Good does not mean lawful. Learn your D&D.
    8. Evil exists." Obviously.

    I scored 100 points! Woo hoo. Join my cult, I mean religion...

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    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Glip View Post
    Instead of telling me why I'm wrong or where my logical fallacies are, you just say "you think like an elementary school kid." Okay then. No point in me having a discussion with you either.
    I'm free... so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Glip View Post
    Because, supposedly, he created us, and therefore thinks of us as his children. Like we're family, y'know? You're supposed to love family, right?
    You supposed... but is it his real motivation/s (its possible to have multiple motivations).

    Possible motivations (using similar thread of thought):
    1) His creations (duh, obviously)
    2) His children (wait... only Jesus can claim that)
    3) His "children" (his pride, perhaps similar to Gepetto and Pinocchio?)
    4) His "children" (to pass time, somewhat like The Sims...)
    5) His prototype (undergoing test run with Satan as unwitting QC...)
    6) His rejects (damaged product tossed out of heaven)

    Other possibilities:
    1) Source of power (more believers more power!)
    2) Bragging rights (I'm loved more than the other god)
    3) etc... find more from other games...

    On family...
    Loving your family is good and all but by loving your family more is it equal to biased love? Selfishness? Jesus loved everyone... equally I think...

    Quote Originally Posted by Glip View Post
    Last I heard, a family happened when a man and a woman get together to have sex and make (read "create") a baby. IF you don't like that, I'm sure if you put a lot of hard work into making anything (some engineering/art/programming project? Anything you cared about making and put a lot of effort into), you wouldn't suddenly stop caring about it after you finished it, and just toss it in the first trash can you come by afterwards.
    Read above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glip View Post
    If God created nature, then it would stand to reason that nature would have elements of God's character/personality in it.
    Possible, but it's just another speculation... need evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glip View Post
    I believe it's said in the Christian religions that God created Man "in his own image," which, since it doesn't seem to really mean LOOK like him, perhaps means ACT like him. Which if it does, I guess you gotta say he really kinda failed there
    To use the word "failed", I suppose you compared it to a certain list of criteria. Criteria prepare by you. Better ask God why he created humans before judging whether he is successful or has failed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Glip View Post
    A different argument: If God created nature, why would he create a nature with "rules" that he didn't agree with?
    Another speculation... not supported by evidence. Ask God first.

    Nature might be:
    1) Exactly the same as in his heaven/world/dimension
    2) Different because he is trying out stuff...
    3) Opposite again because he is trying out stuff...




    Conclusion:
    - Guess-work about God is a waste of time. Wait... I thought it was forbidden... maybe the Muslims said that... then again they do the same.
    - Anyway, as long as you feel loved good for you. They don't feel loved? Their loss. They can find love somewhere else. Or you can give him human love...
    - Also mayhaps "God has yet to reveal himself to them" or something similar.
    - Continue discussion about Good and Evil and less about God...

  32. ISO #32

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    selfish desires are the root of traditional evil. but selfishness has a negative connotation because it doesn't serve society. the truth is, if you feel something, then you are right to feel that way. evil is simply following your own desires counter to societal norms.

  33. ISO #33

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Mateo View Post
    selfish desires are the root of traditional evil. but selfishness has a negative connotation because it doesn't serve society. the truth is, if you feel something, then you are right to feel that way. evil is simply following your own desires counter to societal norms.
    I see root of liberty but not root of evil there. Evil is the conflict between your own desire and social norm, not the feeling. You don't always carry out conflicts into the worst scenario anyway, do you?
    When we talked about pubs, we are talking about us.
    When they talked about pubs, they exclude themselves.
    They say only bad players want to modify citizens, and they do not satisfy bad players.
    Are we bad players? We include bad players, but that is just a part of us.
    ---They put veteran, mayor, allowed jester to visit for nothing, and they regretted and say those things are brainless.

  34. ISO #34

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    A few points.

    1. The intention behind an action defines the morality of the reaction- If you kill someone for selfish gain it is evil, If you kill someone to protect an innocent it is good.

    As such morality is very relative and can rarely be judged without knowing every bit of the situation.

    2. If we are talking Christianity note that in the old testament God had the Jews go across the fertile crescent killing every man, woman, child, and animal to take hold of their 'promised land'. When they 'sacrificed' the animals instead of just slaughtering them he condemned an entire generation. This speaks to the nature of god and even more so to the truth of 'Good and evil'
    It is also worth mentioning that the word 'good' use to mean that a person could accomplish things no matter what stood in his way. In the sense that if a man had to get to a meeting to help his civilization and in his haste to get there he trampled a beggar it was acceptable. This is similar to how in the last hundred years 'cute' has gone from meaning 'little' to our understanding of the word.

    3. The most 'evil' acts we have ever committed as a race have been done with the justification of intention. Hitler committed genocide and war in an effort to create a world order and eliminate what he considered 'evil'. To save the nation from a long and bloody war America developed the atomic bomb. To eliminate evil some men hijacked an airplane and flew it into buildings on Sept 11th because they were taught it was what God wanted.


    Is evil for one person good for another or is there an absolute standard?

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    Re: The Problem of Evil

    The universe is a simple binary-system-based, means everything in it has 2 absolute conditions: Light and Darkness, Sound and Silence, 1 and 0, Life and Death, Good and Evil.
    Backing to my logic of the universe being someone's (Greater Beings) numberical simulation, it is quite logical that this simulation is based on binary system. That is the explanation of the existance of good and evil, in my point of view.
    Sencerely yours,

    Self_Obsessed_Attention_Hungry_Wh()re_With_High_Ambitions_And_Low_IQ

  37. ISO #37

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by BrockSamson View Post
    "1. God exists.
    2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
    3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
    4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
    5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
    6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
    7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
    8. Evil exists."


    Discuss
    (Revive Thread)

    This is indeed what I thought when I first listened to my pastor's sermon about sex, power, and money. Why put selfish desires into this world when you have so much good? It only makes sense. The Greeks say it was released from Pandora's Box, and some don't even mention it at all. If you've actually read the Bible, you'll know that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Why did God create that tree? Like all we do, we test to see if one is capable of handling such a simple command. The SAT for example, it doesn't measure what you know about math or literature. It measures how well you can think and how you reflect upon a problem, and that's what we do in everyday life. Sin was in us all this time: temptation, greed, power, sex, money. These are just the simple characteristics of the human mind, and if God made it that way, I'm happy with that. I may be a hypocrite, but everybody should be able to handle sexual temptation in masturbation and sex. Everybody should be able to handle greed. Everybody should be able to love and help the neighbors around them, even if they smell like shit. That's what makes us human, it's the quality of fellowship with both God and our neighbors.
    We are opposed to the line of compromise with imperialism. At the same time, we cannot tolerate the practice of only shouting against imperialism, but, in actual fact, being afraid to fight it. Kim Il Sung
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  38. ISO #38

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Mateo View Post
    selfish desires are the root of traditional evil. but selfishness has a negative connotation because it doesn't serve society. the truth is, if you feel something, then you are right to feel that way. evil is simply following your own desires counter to societal norms.
    Pretty much this.
    As the movie Irreversible starts: "There are no good or bad deeds. There are just deeds".

    Good an evil are excuses to validate or condone what someone does, says or thinks, depending on how those actions benefit or attack those who hold the power to dictate what's good and what's evil.

    One of the most common phrases that I hear in American TV series and movies is "... it was the right thing to do". And suddenly, all actions are excused because the hero is the good guy and he was fighting evil. Pretty much as the popular plot for every war ever: You aren't bombing villages full of civilians; you are fighting evil, soulless monsters. You are fighting evil, and that justifies everything.
    There's no easier way to unite a bunch of different people than making up a common enemy; the communist, the jew, the terrorist.

    From a judeo-christian point of view, well, the purpose is crystal clear; just take a look at the things that they condone: knowledge, sex, fame, fulfillment, happiness; power. Keep them weak. Misinform them. Then make them feel guilty about everything they do and desire.
    No faith can exist where there isn't misery. «(...) religions are like glow-worms; they shine only when it is dark».

    I don't tend to worry about such issues (and can't think of the last time I did). I'm not here to do "good" or "evil". I'm just here to contemplate and enjoy the Absurd (as in Camus' acceptance of the Absurd).

    Regarding gods and myths, well, let's just refer to Jünger's anarch (an archetype which some have said I fit): «I am not a nonbeliever, but a man who demands something worth believing in». And the judeo-christian mythology is certainly unworthy of my belief, just as their moral impositions.

  39. ISO #39

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral View Post
    To an extent.
    Hitler systematically executing Jews was an act of absolute evil.

    The soldiers fighting the Allied powers would be acts of relative evil. They're playing for what they must know to be a morally bankrupt team, but they're also playing for THEIR friends and family... their country too.
    Last edited by Admiral; October 5th, 2013 at 08:02 PM.

  40. ISO #40

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral View Post
    Hitler systematically executing Jews was an act of absolute evil.

    The soldiers fighting the Allied powers would be acts of relative evil. They're playing for what they must know to be a morally bankrupt team, but they're also playing for THEIR friends and family... their country too.
    I was using that as an example. I have not read too much into his reasons but what I have read gave me the impression that he felt the Jewish race was responsible for a lot of problems in his country and that they were by nature evil. This would make his intention to exterminate a known evil which although very misguided, would have been a good intention. If the intention behind the action defines the morality of the action wouldn't his actions have to be considered good if my stated motive is correct?

  41. ISO #41

  42. ISO #42

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Shipwreck. Thirteen people clambered upon a lifeboat which can support ten. Lifeboat is going to capsize soon. Everybody is passive and is afraid to make tough decisions. I became the leader and rallied the passengers. I took the following actions:

    1) Throw the communist off board. Hater of religion and God. We need God's intervention to survive this.
    2) Kick the sick guy into the sea. He's a burden to himself and others. Reduces our survival chances even if our lifeboat is not sinking.
    3) Drown the Jew. Nobody likes him anyways.
    4) Hijack a passing yacht called Poland and murdered the owner. Serves him right for refusing to save us.

    I give myself a medal for good job done. Saved nine other lives I did.

  43. ISO #43

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    I think the funniest thing about Hitler is this:

    Given a few more months, the Germans would have finished a stealth jet fighter, and would have decimated Allied forces, likely winning the war and unifying the world.

    With the places he did conquer, he passed a lot of improvements and great laws to help conquered, non-Jew, populations....

    Think about it, what do you hear bad from Hitler besides, "He killed 6 million Jews." I am curious.

    My point is, if Hitler has won the war, he would we regarded at the best human being of all time.

    "Evil" acts are when something hurts you or a friend.
    "Good" acts are when something helps you or a friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    You should be priviledged to experience bestmas.

    "waah the screen is shaking, waah my delicate eyes".

    Fuck sake.

  44. ISO #44

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    I might contribute more later, but for now I will just agree that assumption 3 is wrong and misguided. I personally speak from a Judeo-Christian perspective where "good" and "evil" ultimately return to obedience. Assuming that all of the world was created in God's image, to be obedient to God is to be "good" and, by disobeying God (which is "evil" and "sinful"), we disrupt the natural order of things and bring about suffering. However, if free will is a God-ordained institution, we must be able to disobey God and therefore be "evil": God does not need nor would he abolish "evil" itself, but he would provide a means by which humanity can return to obedience and "good" (the Messiah Jesus Christ).
    AKA Othnia (Battle.net ID): formerly in FMs II-XII.

  45. ISO #45

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    I think we should start a new thread to discuss the intention, choice and action in theme of good and evil instead.

    However, still, this conflict shows that a good-evil problem is man created, and not fit for discussion of god.

    Would god get into a trainwreck baby saving action or shipwreck situation? Yea, but man fell in moral delima more than god.

    As we all know, people who are guilty are not always evil, people who paid the price are not always bad in a short term.

    Justice and good become the general tendency of define moral in a long run, if Armageddon doesn't come in time.

    I still prefer that sentence whoever said it,

    There is only one virtue knowledge, and one evil ignorance.

    To the most extreme discovery of my own end of good and evil:

    Good is when you realize something had good consequences,

    Evil is when you realize something had bad consequences.

    It takes knowledge to farsee the result and takes heart to feel the light.

    I therefore get rid of any rigid rules of actions and intentions behind,
    leaving the future decide.

    A Good thing is good because it make things better not worse,
    and evil thing does opposite. The sight is decided by knowledge. The judge is made by heart.
    Last edited by louiswill; October 6th, 2013 at 05:04 PM.
    When we talked about pubs, we are talking about us.
    When they talked about pubs, they exclude themselves.
    They say only bad players want to modify citizens, and they do not satisfy bad players.
    Are we bad players? We include bad players, but that is just a part of us.
    ---They put veteran, mayor, allowed jester to visit for nothing, and they regretted and say those things are brainless.

  46. ISO #46

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    I think we need to separate religious beliefs from logical reasoning. If that takes a new thread to do then it may be best to do so but I feel like if everyone clearly states their basis for good and evil then a logical conversation can follow. Without that this topic will be a dog chasing its tail.

  47. ISO #47

    Re: The Problem of Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkLiveLife View Post
    I think we need to separate religious beliefs from logical reasoning. If that takes a new thread to do then it may be best to do so but I feel like if everyone clearly states their basis for good and evil then a logical conversation can follow. Without that this topic will be a dog chasing its tail.
    the two are mutually exclusive

 

 

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