Options Town Investigative and Neutral Randoms

[Deantwo]

i have been thinking and wondering for a while... why doesn't Town Investigative, Neutral Begin, and Neutral Killing have any options?

Suggested options:

• Town Investigative:
  
  • Exclude Sheriff and Investigator
  • Exclude Detective and Lookout
• Neutral Begin:
  
  • Exclude Survivor
  • Exclude Amnesiac
  • Exclude Jester and Executioner
• Neutral Killing:
  
  • Exclude Arsonist
  • Exclude Serial Killer
  • Exclude Mass Murderer

tell me what you guys think or come up with more ^^

-

PS: don't know if code is in place to prevent the start of a game with (Wiki links) Impossible Randoms like Any Random

[Slaol]

They shouldn't be allowed to exclude all things. More broken saves that way.

Investigative- exclude Detective, exclude Lookout
Benign- exclude Survivor, exclude Amnesiac
Killing- exclude Arsonist, excludes Mass Murderer

Then basically each specific random would allow exclusion of 2 roles, save Neutral Evil which allows for 3.

Overall +1 to this.

[Voss]

i don't see why you would change deantwo's proposal. slaol's looks a little bit more choosy. what if you dont want the sheriff/invest, or the SK?

[Slaol]

i don't see why you would change deantwo's proposal. slaol's looks a little bit more choosy. what if you dont want the sheriff/invest, or the SK?

I don't like things being able to be built to exclude 100% of the possible roles.
Sheriff/Invest are more similar, getting role results. With Detective/Lookout being about visitation. Sheriff/Invest are more basic Invest types. Like how Town Core can exclude Mason and Citizen, but forces Sheriff/Doctor to come out of it possibly.

Each random should allow for 4, with 2 potentially exclude-able, based on the roles that make the most sense to come out of it.
Core - Sheriff/Doctor, Mason/Citizen
Investigative - Sheriff/Invest, Detective/Lookout
Protective - Doctor/Escort, Bodyguard/Bus Driver
Killing - Vigilante/Bodyguard, Jailor/Veteran
Power - Mayor/Mason Leader, Jailor/Veteran

I also think Mafia should exclude 1 each. As they do.
Killing - Godfather/Mafioso, Disguiser
Support - Consig/Consort, Blackmailer
Deception - Janitor/Framer, Disguiser

I would be fine with any re-arranging, say Mafia Support is Consort/Blackmailer, as they both stop town. Consig being the oddball. Deception being Janitor/Disguiser, as they both clean. Framer being the oddball. Etc.

[Deantwo]

They shouldn't be allowed to exclude all things. More broken saves that way.

Investigative- exclude Detective, exclude Lookout
Benign- exclude Survivor, exclude Amnesiac
Killing- exclude Arsonist, excludes Mass Murderer

Then basically each specific random would allow exclusion of 2 roles, save Neutral Evil which allows for 3.

Overall +1 to this.

my whole reason for this is that i want chance for Detective and Lookout... but not Investigator and Sheriff...

but really i don't see your point... "more broken saves"... you fear people are stupid and make bad setups? customization isn't a bad thing normally... people just have to learn how to use it...

[RLVG]

They shouldn't be allowed to exclude all things. More broken saves that way.

So in your logic, Neutral Killing with all but Arsonist excluded is a broken save in comparission to a setup with a preset Arsonist? Remember that game setups prevent paradoxes like multiple options being uncompitable.

I would say : Make logical excludes.



Investigator : Detective / Lookout doesn't get "very definate" clues but instead stalks people.
Neutral Killing : Arsonist needs one day at a time to douse someone, not killing yet... And if lynched / executed? No kills at all.
Neutral Benign : Jester are a combination of unpredictability, random and a failed Executioner.

So, a role that's not 100% of what it is or a role able to become a preset different role if fail.

Spoiler : Defense of roles not excluded :

Sheriff / Invest : 100% definate clues, otherwise influenced by other roles.
Survivor : He survives, is neutral and can't do other then to take hits.
Amnesiac : He is very powerfull, but can be appropriately balanced with setup options.
Executioner : He can turn to Jester, and Exe has a goal not getting himself killed.
--- Starting as Jester however, leads to trying to get yourself lynched D1/D2.
Serial Killers almost always kills someone once per day including roleblockers.
Mass Murderers has the ability to kill everyone visiting a house, giving a chance from 0 to 6+ kills in a single night.

Final :

Suggested options:

    Town Investigative:
        Exclude Detective and Lookout
    Neutral Begin:
        Exclude Jester
    Neutral Killing:
        Exclude Arsonist

[Mugy]

I like this idea.
I would prefer I had more control over the random spawns.

[Slaol]

So in your logic, Neutral Killing with all but Arsonist excluded is a broken save in comparission to a setup with a preset Arsonist? Remember that game setups prevent paradoxes like multiple options being uncompitable.

I would say : Make logical excludes.



Investigator : Detective / Lookout doesn't get "very definate" clues but instead stalks people.
Neutral Killing : Arsonist needs one day at a time to douse someone, not killing yet... And if lynched / executed? No kills at all.
Neutral Benign : Jester are a combination of unpredictability, random and a failed Executioner.

So, a role that's not 100% of what it is or a role able to become a preset different role if fail.

Spoiler : Defense of roles not excluded :

Sheriff / Invest : 100% definate clues, otherwise influenced by other roles.
Survivor : He survives, is neutral and can't do other then to take hits.
Amnesiac : He is very powerfull, but can be appropriately balanced with setup options.
Executioner : He can turn to Jester, and Exe has a goal not getting himself killed.
--- Starting as Jester however, leads to trying to get yourself lynched D1/D2.
Serial Killers almost always kills someone once per day including roleblockers.
Mass Murderers has the ability to kill everyone visiting a house, giving a chance from 0 to 6+ kills in a single night.

Final :

Suggested options:

    Town Investigative:
        Exclude Detective and Lookout
    Neutral Begin:
        Exclude Jester
    Neutral Killing:
        Exclude Arsonist

Nope. All but Arsonist excluded is fine. I mean a Neutral Killing that excludes Arson,MM, and SK all at the same time. I've hidden a Witch before. Neutral Evil(exclude killers), and personally exclude Cultist. Bam, hidden Witch.
Your "Final:" is pretty good. I think Executioner is a virus enough to also be able to be excluded as Not-so-Benign, but you agree on the Sheriff/Investigator vs. Detective/Lookout so I will take it.

[Deantwo]

I mean a Neutral Killing that excludes Arson,MM, and SK all at the same time.

i did add a note about that to OP... and i don't see a problem with that... the game just need to complain and say that "Neutral Evil options is invalid" (similar to other warning with invalid role options)
it's not like you should be able to start a game with a random that can be nothing... (Town Power is maybe ok as it's a rare error to make and probably a hard thing to check for)

but what's wrong with wanting to have a option to exclude Sheriff and Investigator from Town Investigative... don't like it... don't use that option

unless someone can tell me that adding code to check for invalid options is A LOT of work... i don't see why we can't have all the options i suggested in OP

[Lysergic]

I'm not a fan of the current exclusion setup (I play way too many games where someone's false claim is excluded, resulting in an OP Invest - i.e. Bus Driver is excluded, but Arsonist is confirmed). I think that adding more exclusions only encourages trolly setups / has a negative effect on the metagame.

[Deantwo]

I'm not a fan of the current exclusion setup (I play way too many games where someone's false claim is excluded, resulting in an OP Invest - i.e. Bus Driver is excluded, but Arsonist is confirmed). I think that adding more exclusions only encourages trolly setups / has a negative effect on the metagame.

well... main reason i would like this change is so i can remove Investigator from my setup totally... i am not a huge fan of Investigators as you said it make false claiming no fun... i favor Sheriffs and Executioners more as you have better array of roles you can false claim...
always feel my setup is bad when Town Investigative roll Investigator... but i want the chance of Detective and Lookout