New Role: Strongman

[maccabbe]

Role Name: Strongman
Description: A muscular person capable on ensuring a kill goes through
Alignment: Mafia
Ability: Mafia kill will ignore any healing and redirect but not immunity or roleblock (1 charge, Self target)
If bodyguard defends target then the godfather/mafioso, bodygaurd, and target die

Sheriff Reports: Member of the mafia
Investigator Reports: Bodyguard or Strongman

Notes:
Bodyguard/Escort/Consort separated into Bodyguard/Strongman and Consort/Escort
If more than one strongman use their ability at the same time only one will be activated.
Yes this role is straight from epicmafia
Strongman is viewed as visiting himself when he uses his ability.

[Roflcopter]

So it's a mafioso, with the secondary ability of instantkilling someone.

Attachment 6598

[RLVG]

That's extremely disbalanced, even at the cost of it's own life.

Strongman should practice his life and would only be able to perform this once every 10th day?

[Fallacy]

Sponsored by Viagra™

[Guardian]

The day after the update including the strongman is sent to blizzard's update system: Mafioso ceases to exist....

[maccabbe]

So it's a mafioso, with the secondary ability of instantkilling someone.

Attachment 6598

It's a role which can once per game ensure the mafia kills its target. It does not increase the number of mafia kills that night.

That's extremely disbalanced, even at the cost of it's own life.

Strongman should practice his life and would only be able to perform this once every 10th day?

... strongman only has 1 charge. Did you even read the description?

The day after the update including the strongman is sent to blizzard's update system: Mafioso ceases to exist....

If the option is on then once strongman has used his charge by killing anyone he becomes the mafioso. If the option is off then strongman automatically becomes mafioso. Since godfather and disguiser are already more powerful versions of the mafioso yet mafioso are still used i think mafioso will be fine.

[RLVG]

... strongman only has 1 charge. Did you even read the description?

Do you?

100% Perfect Kill, ignores healing, invulnerability, Jailing, AND kills Bodyguard Protected togheter with the Bodyguard (you'll die but still).



Seriously, they can kill Neutral Killers whenever they wish to and can sacrifice recklessly on Veterans - Jailed Targets - anyone, as long as they can perform an Xanatos Gambit to win 100% of the time as long they don't get killed by Neutral randomly or lynched.

[Roflcopter]

Role is terrible and should not exist, end of story.

If you want to ask why, look at the reasons others have already stated.

[maccabbe]

Role is terrible and should not exist, end of story.

If you want to ask why, look at the reasons others have already stated.

It is an interesting role even if it is only able to help eliminate confirmed roles. In fact this seems very in line with the spirit of mafia and the mafia team needs new roles so I do not believe it should be so easily dismissed as a terrible role.

However looking at the reasons other people have stated I have changed him so he is weaker.

[Roflcopter]

It still can instantly kill any role, arsonist bye-bye, serial killer? dead too, suddenly the mafia needs not to worry about invulnerable neutral killings. Oh, and the town has a veteran? Guess who's dead.

What if there are two strongmen in a game? What if they use both charges same night?

[maccabbe]

It still can instantly kill any role, arsonist bye-bye, serial killer? dead too, suddenly the mafia needs not to worry about invulnerable neutral killings. Oh, and the town has a veteran? Guess who's dead.

What if there are two strongmen in a game? What if they use both charges same night?

I have edited the role to make the changes clearer: The strongman no longer ignores roleblock or immunity. Interesting question but I see no reason why both charges would be consumed to buff one kill.

[Ash]

I think the strongman should ignore immunity but not roleblock.
I like the way it is in EM because of how PRs tend to stay hidden. I don't believe this role is OP at all.

Also if roleblocked, strongman should keep his charge.

[Sin]

He should at least die when he uses his charge.
Sk or Arso vs maf endgames are common, this guy will simply ensure a win in these cases. If the strongman dies, and if the maf can't kill the night he acts, then maybe it will be balanced. Witch or BD can still screw him.

[Deantwo]

He should at least die when he uses his charge.
Sk or Arso vs maf endgames are common, this guy will simply ensure a win in these cases. If the strongman dies, and if the maf can't kill the night he acts, then maybe it will be balanced. Witch or BD can still screw him.

as far as i understand the suggested role... you'd have to have a Mafia killing role with you in order to use the ability... if only the Strongman is left he'll become a Mafioss... much like the Disguiser

Strongman as i understart the suggestion isn't a killing role... more like a support role like the Janitor

and if it's "two Maf vs SK vs Arson" Maf could win with this rather then give up... don't really see how this role would totally ruin the game

[Sin]

Simply too powerful against neutral killers, without anything to sacrifice. Especially if maf has already attacked him and knows who he is.
Maf can already talk at night, if they get a way to eliminate NKs while the NK (except arso who can't kill whenever he wants) is powerless against the GF, it's imbalanced.

[Deantwo]

Simply too powerful against neutral killers, without anything to sacrifice. Especially if maf has already attacked him and knows who he is.
Maf can already talk at night, if they get a way to eliminate NKs while the NK (except arso who can't kill whenever he wants) is powerless against the GF, it's imbalanced.

yeah that can be a problem... but i guess the first version of this role could just make the attack by-pass healing... then have a option for ignoring invulnerability... and one for jailed targets...

but hey... every new role will change something... that's the point of adding a new role... if you can add a new role that changes nothing in the game... why would you add it?

give people the options for making it work as they want... and it'd be used by the people that like it... just like some people hate Citizens... some people will hate any new role too

[Ash]

Simply too powerful against neutral killers, without anything to sacrifice. Especially if maf has already attacked him and knows who he is.
Maf can already talk at night, if they get a way to eliminate NKs while the NK (except arso who can't kill whenever he wants) is powerless against the GF, it's imbalanced.

that already happens.
its called claim sheriff and shout "this guy is SK"

[RLVG]

that already happens.
its called claim sheriff and shout "this guy is SK"

Yeah, but what about if there's Strongman there? Think about the gambit pileup.


There's a difference of Lynching Random Town, then to Lynch SK, which you can essentially kill with the Strongman after the lynch of a town.

So if I am like "Lynch this guy, he's SK" - town figures that they can lynch SK and prepare for the next night / day to win, it was a town lynched and I use the Strongman to RoflDie the Neutral Killer on the night which "might" kill another town - the GF which is immune - or the Strongman who intends to kill the SK anyway.

[Sin]

that already happens.
its called claim sheriff and shout "this guy is SK"

Except that it's quite common for town to decide to side with neutral killers at the end of the game. Because the day 6 Sheriff claim is kind of obvious, so obvious it can make town decide that this "sheriff" sucks and that he will give one more night to the SK.

With the Strongman, SK is killed at night anyway, so maf doesn't even have to be convincing. Just some skipping and it's done.

[Slaol]

Why is this being compared to a Mafioso. Isn't it more like a Disguiser? Having a 1-charge ability, and then becoming a Mafioso AFTER using it? This isn't a great role 2/5, but it is NOT at all what you people are claiming it is. It is a 1-charge, so if you use it it is gone. It is like a weak Disguiser.

It could take out a Veteran or Bodyguard's target at the cost of a Mafia, but suiciding isn't the optimal use of the ability.

It is best used against Neutral Killers, but taking out Neutral Killers too early lowers chances of Town dying quickly enough.

Secondary effect at bypassing healing/vesting/role blocking. Not to maximize the kill, but to make the Doctor/Escort that is claiming their target to appear to be lying. If they say "Blue is Mafia, I will block Mafia." but then there is a Mafia kill... the Escort looks evil.

It would also be Megaluls for GF to attack Blue, Strongman to use his ability, and have a Bus Driver swap GF with the Mafia target. Now GF can be killed by Mafia kill while invulnerable.

Then, after that the Strongman is worthless until a Mafioso dies and it can transform. This is not that great of a role, but the responses in this thread seem like they didn't even read it. lol

Frankly I would hate to see this role come up in my Mafia. I would rather have a Mafioso.

[Ash]

Frankly I would hate to see this role come up in my Mafia. I would rather have a Mafioso.

What?
Do you know that what makes a Strongman really useful is that they can kill "confirmed" investigative roles that are being healed?

[Slaol]

What?
Do you know that what makes a Strongman really useful is that they can kill "confirmed" investigative roles that are being healed?

1 shot. Not enough.


Edit:
Disguiser would also bypass the healing if we both attacked him, and then the Disguise takes effect.
Blackmailer would shut him up.
Escort would shut him down.
Consig could disagree with the claims or pull the heal to himself.
Framer could misdirect that investigative roles leads.
Janitor would make any claim we put up against that investigative role reasonable.
Every other role is blatantly better. But I would rather have the consistent Mafioso passive effect against Lookouts, Detectives, Jailors, Escorts, and having someone that is willing to speak since they have no active ability to use.

Strongman skill wise has no benefit that another skill Mafia doesn't have better of, and having someone that sits there all game waiting for my GF to die is of no value.

[Deantwo]

1 shot. Not enough.


Edit:
Disguiser would also bypass the healing if we both attacked him, and then the Disguise takes effect.
Blackmailer would shut him up.
Escort would shut him down.
Consig could disagree with the claims or pull the heal to himself.
Framer could misdirect that investigative roles leads.
Janitor would make any claim we put up against that investigative role reasonable.
Every other role is blatantly better. But I would rather have the consistent Mafioso passive effect against Lookouts, Detectives, Jailors, Escorts, and having someone that is willing to speak since they have no active ability to use.

Strongman skill wise has no benefit that another skill Mafia doesn't have better of, and having someone that sits there all game waiting for my GF to die is of no value.

see now this i can agree with ^^

even more so as newbie pub players want they're clicky buttons...

[maccabbe]

Disguiser would also bypass the healing if we both attacked him, and then the Disguise takes effect.

If the doctor knows his target was attacked then doctor knows when his target was attacked multiple times. 1 death and 2 attacks on a different target he is healing... most doctors can figure out who got disguised.

However after comparing the effect I had for bg and strongman I have changed it back to where target for kill, bg, and gf/mafioso all die.

Blackmailer would shut him up.

Unless of course his target can spam vote someone which is the case in most games. Worse, if there is a detective/lookout on the target for blackmailer then blackmailer gets lynched and then there are 2 confirmed town roles. At least if strongman helps kill the target only the det/lookout that catches him could become confirmed town.

Escort would shut him down.

Again if there is a detective/lookout on the target for consort then consort gets lynched and then there are 2 confirmed town roles. At least if strongman helps kill the target only the det/lookout that catches him could become confirmed town.

Consig could disagree with the claims or pull the heal to himself.

This might work before the target is confirmed as town. After target is confirmed as town, consig would be commiting suicide by attempting to do either.

Framer could misdirect that investigative roles leads.

Except framer is useless against detective/lookout while strongman can help kill detective/lookout.

Janitor would make any claim we put up against that investigative role reasonable.

Janitor is generally one of the better roles but there are instances where strongman would be better. For instance, like consort and disguiser, he could help kill 2 doctors or 1 doctor and a bg defending each other.

Every other role is blatantly better. But I would rather have the consistent Mafioso passive effect against Lookouts, Detectives, Jailors, Escorts, and having someone that is willing to speak since they have no active ability to use.

The main benefit I see from strongman is that he can kill a confirmed town who is being healed by an unknown doctor who is asking for the roles of everyone. Disguiser would reveal himself as I said above, consig would have to spend time finding the doctor and killing him first, etc.

In addition you completely ignore the fact that strongman allows you to ignore any redirects at the same time as ignoring healing. How would any role except strongman consistently deal a confirmed town who is being bussed, they have to either get lucky or kill the bus.

It seems that strongman is better that all roles in certain situations as all roles are better than strongman in different situations, which is to say his ability is neither extremely overpowered or underpowered.

[Slaol]

Had a nice long reply. Took so long it signed out. Lol. So I will TL;DR it.

I was actually defending your role as not viciously OP, as the others suggest. It isn't bad, just similar to Disguiser in game effect (1-time potentially game changing play, maybe it works, maybe not). I just personally would prefer the other roles- but I also prefer the other roles to Disguiser 9 times out of 10.

I have even added the role to the list of roles I use during Mafia games with the kids in the after-school program I 'teach' at.
(FYI, the WIFOM is abysmal)