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  1. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    I have a simple read on MM (based on our recent games (with an s)

    When a town, he plays it intelligently, giving us information even on day 1.
    But as scum. He is low activity and doesn't post long walls of text.
    How can someone tell the difference between town!paopan and scum!Paopan?
  2. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    I have conflicting views about MM. Also I had one scum game with him and he posted actively and influenced the thread as scum. I am gonna change my vote here for now.

    -vote NotPaopan
    Aww just when I was considering making them an option. SD is not getting traction, so I am considering MM or possibly Martin. Pao is still a fine top wagon, but I'd prefer a fun CW, and don't really like PQR as a wagon.
  3. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    Does it being wolfy have anything to do with your thoughts on Pao?
    I'm past this. I'm actually thinking HK is probably just town here.

    Aside from how everything has to do with everything, no. Most of my thoughts on Pao come from the stark differences between their readslist this game and the town game that someone cited, along with an overall anti-town attitude that I didn't like, and possibly some personal feelings that I am trying not to let cloud my judgement, but are there.
  4. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    Okay. I might not live before EoD. But think about these slots

    1st row
    - MM (low-activity scum play)
    - deathworlds (buddies half the players and lurks)
    - Boba Fett (0 play)

    2nd row
    - PQ
    - loldebite
    - Clownbomber
    Can you tell me more about your thoughts on MM?
  5. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    So when im sleeping? NICE PLAN!
    Use your shot at Artificial Deadline 1 then, and place a vote before you sleep?
  6. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by hollowkatt View Post
    pretty much yeah, it's the righteous indignation of being pushed in any way or questioned because "I know I'm a villager wtf are you doing"
    Do you have a read on Martin?
  7. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    Whom do we shoot 2nd?
    Assuming we manage to get 1 flip, the plan dictates that we use remaining shots to shoot whomever is the leading wagon with 5 hours left in the day (at 6 am EST tomorrow morning).
  8. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    We have scum to catch and we have no strat for ITA. Do you not see a problem here?
    My plan for ITA has been in the thread since 24 hours ago. I am still sticking to that plan -whomever is top wagon in 11pm EST (in a little under an hour), I am going to push people to shoot, and shoot myself. I think everyone should do this.
  9. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    idk why some people don't seemingly see it

    but it is posts like these that I think have a level of innocence to them

    maybe its just the simplicity and yet directness of it?

    idk what else to call it

    but I think this post is a good example of what I frequently feel in PQR's posts
    Hmmm... I am thinking this post might say more about you than PQR...
  10. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Takumi Fujiwara View Post
    Since I'm bored as shit and tired of lurking I'll insert myself into the thread.

    I for one, believe Paopan is town. That said, it is apparent that scum likely cannot stop an ITA without some tomfoolery. So, naturally the inference is that I am scum protecting Paopan by noticing this and so the correct shot would be me. However it wouldn't be because I am town. And being town I will shoot my highest scumread. Which is of course the infamous bounty hunter, Boba Fett.
    Why do you scum read Boba Fett?
  11. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    I don't really have any substantiation to why I voted you other than I was hoping it might produce something useful since it was on someone who hadn't produced much yet to be read by

    Earlier the Pao wagon (which my vote was on previously) disappeared and I didn't have the time to look into it, but overall today I feel like somethings off with the wagoning overall
    The Pao wagon is back now. if you don't have any reason to vote SB, are you thinking about moving, and if so, where to?
  12. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Takumi Fujiwara View Post
    No, I'd tell you.
    But like... you just did... you told the whole thread...
  13. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    @Seanzie ITA time coming up. Where you at yo!
    It's an hour and a half from now. Paopan is top wagon, which I'm more or less fine with.

    I did look at MM's ISO, and it didn't inspire confidence, but I'm also okay with where my vote is at right now. We'll see how the thread reacts as we get closer to Artificial Deadline 1.
  14. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Takumi Fujiwara View Post
    But now, I have mastered the scumtown-driftu. I am both town and scum simultaneously.
    So... you're saying you're scum?
  15. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    It’s extremely difficult to determine purposeful lurking from actual activity difficulties. I have never seen it work.
    We can talk mafia theory post-game. I'd prefer to hear more from you in regards to the points I made earlier.
  16. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    189 pages. thanks, i dont have the energy for that. your argument is fair, but it frustrates me that we will fight while scum chew on popcorn. So much for Frinckles teaching me to focus on building a towncore (WHO THEN FIRE BACK AND VOTE ME!). I should just lurk next time. jeez. Imagine improving my game and increasing my participation and getting ownt as a result of my increased efforts. FEELS BAD!
    I'm not fighting you. I just agreed to be part of your towncore (again, tentatively - I don't do towncores, I am much better at scumhunting than townhunting, and only use townhunting as a way to reduce the number of people I need to consider for an elim on a given day).
  17. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by deathworlds View Post
    Publicly stating you have no intention to read thread?
    Definitely anti-town, don't like it.
    Agreed with the anti-town part, but not what is striking me, and know lots of towns who do this unfortunately (well... I've had to do it at times too, so I can't judge too harshly, but whatever, off track...)

    Instead: Paopan wasn't really a big thing when HK left the thread. Paopan's readslist comes under pretty intense scrutiny relatively recently, HK hasn't read up but votes Paopan over the readslist?
  18. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    I assure you that I am town. I saw your earlier post that you remind you of other people. So what is similar between how we post?

    What did i post that looked "super scummy"?

    As I once told a wise man (who may or may not be in this game lol), I once realized in an earlier mafia game that (because i was getting TvT'ed) I need to work on my town game and choose words wisely. I have not mastered this. I am town, I speak my mind. It is quite frustrating to participate in TvT engagements.
    The easiest way to describe the similarities I see between you and them is to probably just point out a game. I think you are very similar to Gavial in this game: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?t=2124

    Things like you hardpushing a towncore come off as pretty scummy to me, especially when you seem to insist that people have to have the same towncore as you. It is level 0 scummy, but still scummy.
  19. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by hollowkatt View Post
    hai everybody
    -vote NotPaopan


    I have read nothing since I was last here and don't intend to. I did more thinking about paopans reads list and, well, they're wolfy as fuck so lets kill them
    What do people think of this post? I am worried it is going to get lost in the noise, but I am wondering if anyone else finds this as peculiar as I do (post + threadstate at the time of posting).
  20. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    I don't appreciate your view of me as some idiot nub, so you shall still pay. Things I do and say have reasoning behind them. I believe you are town. So figure it out so we can win this. I am offering you something, you need to figure out the rest.
    Sorry, I use the word "newbie" in that post to specifically mean a Deck Mafia Newbie. I do not think you're an idiot, and I don't think you're a FM newb.

    I do think you don't have a good grasp on relative card strength though (I don't mean this to be a sleight, just my perception of your knowledge on DM), which actually now that I think about it actually points kinda strongly to you being town since anyone new to Deck Mafia that ended up in scum chat got a chance to see a lot more cards, and probably talk to someone who is more experienced.

    So uh... I guess I'll be in your towncore... tentatively. I'm still a bit wary of you because sometimes you post things that look super scummy, but I know like 2 other people who post extremely similarly to how you post, and so I'mma use meta on them to not count those sorts of posts against you too much.
  21. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    -vote NotPaopan


    I’ll return to the read I’m more confident on.

    @Seanzie

    Don’t let me finish this day without answering your post. I am definitely going to forget. Just busy right now.

    PEdit: yeah those are pretty solid thoughts. I can understand those, barring the bit about activity. I strongly disagree with the thought that wolves tend to skew less active than town. When there are a billion things that can effect activity outside of the game, judging alignment based on activity is awful. I’ve never once seen it work.
    I should clarify that I don't use activity to base reads. I do think though that alignment affects it (and in a negative way), but I believe alignment is a lower-order term, so as you said things like real life and 100 other things just have MORE of an effect, so it makes it nearly impossible to read from, but I do think the effect is there.

    Activity patterns are a different thing though - activity patterns are much more strongly AI than activity on it's own, but that is a story for another day.
  22. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    You ruined my attempt to catch a scum, unless you are scum. How do you feel about that???
    Everyone in this is either

    1.) A newbie, who knows that the newbie cards are not some super amazing cards, or

    2.) A DM veteran, who knows the newbie cards are not some super amazing cards.

    The things you're claiming are wayyy out of whack from what I expect from newbie cards, and from what I expect most other people to expect from newbie cards. Even some of my best cards don't have crazy effects like someone dying if they get 4 votes on D1 (the upside of such a card would have to be more extreme than my best cards by far). I don't think scum was falling for that "trap", and I think it was just wasting threadhealth pursuing it.
  23. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    Then you shall pay
    I thought I was in your towncore.
  24. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    Okay. You know I will be revealing myself today as town mayo right?
    I don't believe you.
  25. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    @Seanzie do you have a good reason to have your vote on me?
    Yeah, I wanted to call your bluff earlier because I thought it was -EV.
  26. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    -vote stealthbomber16
  27. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    Based on your past experiences, what are the odds that town will follow through with our optimal strategy?
    At this point? I'll be surprised if we can get one target. We should still try though.

    Btw, I will likely move my vote off you before artificial deadline 1.
  28. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by hollowkatt View Post
    hai everybody
    -vote NotPaopan


    I have read nothing since I was last here and don't intend to. I did more thinking about paopans reads list and, well, they're wolfy as fuck so lets kill them
    This is almost TWTBAW.
  29. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    Sure.

    I will address this post in a bit. I'm going away now.
    I think you make good points about Paopan, and I think I'd like to see one of your two's flips today, maybe both.

    You talked about how things you don't understand point to scum... I don't disagree, at least for the most part.

    Your main complaint about the plan was that you thought the wolves were active but didn't really voice any wolf reads with this claim (which is a weird take - you said yourself activity is NAI, and rand suggests we'd expect wolves of varrying activity levels, but actually I think activity is slightly AI, and you usually expect wolves to be slightly more reserved than their town counterparts, so wolves should skew less active, but not by a lot, so thinking they are some how extra active but without having active wolf suspects is weird). I don't understand this, and think it is quite scummy that somehow you landed on me, one of the more active people, but didn't push me earlier or say anything about my earlier when you were talking about active wolves... only when I started pushing you. Are your earlier comments tied to your more recent reads, or no?

    You also said that town can see other people's perspectives. I've explained in detail why I believe the plan is a good idea, and why I believe encouraging town to deviate from it is a recipe for disaster. You seem to think I am not considering your perspective or others when I push this. I am though, but I believe that people who are pushing for not shooting or doing something else are either just doing something mech-suboptimal or intentionally screwing with the plan. I believe some people believe what they're saying is best, but I don't believe everyone. In particular, I don't really believe you. You give off vibes of being someone proud of your townplay, but your attitude has been at best defeatist (your fascination with the percieved strength of 24/7 scum chat, saying how strong that is, and how wolves can just block-vote (I mean you didn't use the word "block-vote" but whatever, I digress), and at worst is indicative of a wolf who thinks they have an easy win (you never really did consider the down-sides of block-voting as a townie would IMO, not sure where your head is at), and the "defeatest" thing doesn't line up with the vibe I have on you suggesting pride in your town game. So, I can see things from your perspective... just not town!you's perspective.

    I also don't believe you suspect me. I think you doubled down on me after I suspected you, but I don't feel like you believe it.
  30. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    It feels like you're reading through me than actually reading me, which I suspect is the issue that Brad has as well. I feel you haven't actually read my posts and you are unwilling to view things from my point of view, which in turn feels opportunistic. Being able to understand things from other perspectives is how you separate town from scum. Town should always be questioning their reads and beliefs. I don't understand how you view loldebite's discussion on your plan as townie but view my discussion as not- which you actually say is the case in this post.

    I've come to understand that things that don't make sense to me in FM are usually just scummy (unlike real life). I don't understand your thought process. It doesn't feel organic. A lot of times I can identify when scummy behavior is coming from a town because I can see how from their perspective they can arrive at their conclusions. Frequent members of this site might remember that I correctly cleared SuperJack in Bisected Souls (my last town game) using this method a full day before he was mislynched.
    This is the only specific example you give and it happened after you expressed a scumread of me. Do you have any examples of what you're describing here that predate your scumread?

    I've read your posts and Brad's posts, I just don't accept what people say as gospel, especially when tone/feeling doesn't match the words.

    You wanna know what I think?
  31. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Loldebite View Post
    town paopan
    town!paopan's readslist is significantly more content-dense and nuanced than ???!paopan's is.
  32. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    [QUOTE=Gikkle;956517]
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    I don't think the red flags would be waving as hard as they were if I hadn't been his scum mate two games ago. But we can break this down bit by bit.

    [SPOILER=The post in question]

    Hmm. I think I see what you mean. Maybe.

    How do you think it compares to say, this reads list?
    https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...198#post946198
    Is that from scum!paopan or town!paopan?
  33. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by NotPaopan View Post
    Don't care about the main wagon. If who I'm shooting is part of the main wagon or not, I'll do it.
    Even I don't fully trust my day 1 reads, how can I trust the others? So no. I'll pass at day 1

    Okay. Let's shoot each other until someone drops. Like a quick draw
    Eh... no.
  34. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Gikkle View Post
    Takumi/MM/Loldebite/Boba/SB16
    @deathworlds @PQRnHack @Seanzie

    Talk to me about these 5
    Takumi has felt fine. I played with them once before when they were town and I can't tell much of a difference. I've noticed them in thread but they've mostly gone under my radar on account of not pinging me heavily.

    MM I can't really remember anything they've done, but I remember having some bad feelings. Does not remind me of town!MM, but I don't have a ton of experience with them and we're in a different setting, so not willing to go ham there quite yet. Mild scumlean.

    Loldebite is the person with like the sun face avatar? They're an anti-planner, which I don't like, but through their discussions I have felt like they are engaging with a sincerity I associate with town.

    Boba, don't remember anything except they were anti-plan.

    SB16, I think I've made it clear that I am currently considering worlds in which they may be scum. Their discussion of the plan has felt less-than-genuine (contrast this with Loldebite), and apparently they suspect me even though it doesn't feel like they suspect me. I'd like to hear their reasons for thinking I'm a wolf. I tend to do better at reading people when they suspect me, so hopefully they'll come at me and I can sort them better.
  35. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    -vote PQRnHack
  36. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    Extremely disappointing from my towncore. We are supposed to work together.

    @Marshmallow Marshalt @DoctorZeus pls consider removing your vote from me as I will be lynched in the event that one more player votes me.
    Kinda tempted to take you up on this ngl.

    Please explain what mechanic would cause you to die if you get one more vote... if you don't, I'mma vote you.
  37. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    Huh. I was not expecting you to out yourself that aggressively.

    -vote Seanzie


    Alright. I'm not going to be convinced by a wolf that I should shoot my townreads.
    Yes, I am outing myself;)

    Tell me... why exactly do you think I'm scum? Because I suspect you? or?
  38. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    @Seanzie

    I'm confused as to whether this is a fundamental difference in our understanding of mafia or if you are just trying to scumpaint me. If I view a player as town, I won't vote them. If I view a player as town, I also won't shoot them. This makes perfect sense to me, as I'm supposed to vote and shoot the bad guys. What part of this do you disagree with?
    If you are town here, you are simplifying the situation down too far. We have the ability to get a significant boost over scum using the plan as laid out.
    The plan doesn't really work if people can just go off-book and either shoot other people or not shoot at all, and we lose that significant boost. As is, the plan already has an unfortuante chance of not giving us as good of a boost as we might want simply due to RNG and timezones, but adding extra non-shots (and in particular the ability for wolves to strategically non-shoot) is just making the whole situation worse.

    Think about it like this... what do you think is more beneficial to town... to have 1 person die by TK or to have each person have a 1/15-accuracy shot? IMO the 1 person TK death is much more valuable to town - it forces us to work together and it makes it harder for wolves to hide since town naturally is incentivized to create wagons, which are then readable, and scum has to work around that, and looking at movements among the wagons is all helpful. On the other hand, 1/15-accuracy shots do not promote the same sort of wagon effects and it is easy for scum to find a reason to scumread or townread a single person (weither it be because they want to shoot someone or not shoot someone), whereas it is harder for them to explain why they wanted to push one wagon over another, etc...

    Now, I know that 1 guaranteed TK vs 1/15-accuracy shots is not exactly what you and a few others are proposing, but the proposal pushes us away from 1 guaranteed TK and close to 1/15 accuracy shots, and I believe the EV is monotonic in the sense that the closer we are to 1 guaranteed TK, the more EV we have, the further, the less. This is especially true since at this point, town really doesn't seem to care about the wagons moving into the artificial deadline, because you know what? if they don't like the person chosen, they just don't shoot. That takes all of the pressure of the artifical deadline, removes a significant value-add from said pressure, and makes it so even if no one shoots outside our targets, the number of shots that go off is going to be low (already we're working against timezones and activity, now we have to work against reads as well? We might as well just all agree to holster the ITAs... idk what you expect to happen, but I have been strategically silent about how much coordination we actually need to try to get 2 TKs here. The way things are going, I don't even really expect to get one unless we're exceedingly lucky... especially considering how many people have anxiety about making a big decision... now you've given those people a decision to make, so even more shots aren't going to be fired just because people have agency and not acting unless forced to is easier than acting for many people).
  39. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    Your plan doesn't work when people aren't voting because the wagons are town. I literally am calling people to vote for Pao, my preferred wagon. Scroll up. You don't even have to switch pages.

    Don't try and scumpaint me. I'm really good at taking scum down with me.
    You're spending a lot more time trying to discourage a major +EV plan than you are trying to get people to vote.

    You're doing a plenty fine job scumpainting yourself, I don't need to do anything.

    Except maybe vote...

    -vote Stealthbomber16
  40. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    Right now our top two wagons are 3 votes and 2 votes. Call me crazy but I'm not shooting between that.
    So instead of trying to undermine the plan, call for wagon consolidation.

    You're scum, aren't you?
  41. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Gikkle View Post
    Riiiggghtt. As if before I made my posts, wolves were just going to go and out themselves by refusing to shoot their partner despite agreeing beforehand and people saying not shooting would be a scum claim. If anything, if I'm not mistaken, town has something much better now.
    No? If everyone in town was adamant about following the strategy, then I would expect wolves to ITA their wolf mates to blend in.

    How is it better? it is just a less-effective version of the strategy. More likely to not get 2 extra TKs and more susceptible to wolf-influence. I don't see the upside.
  42. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by BradLand View Post
    Multiple games though? It's fucking toxic at that point.
    Dude, we've played like 6 or 7 games together, I pushed you a little bit in two of them to see how you react to pressure. You flip out over someone expressing a scumread on you in a game where people are trying to find scum, and then call them stupid and then say they're toxic... nah.

    I'm sorry man, I don't try to make anyone's game experience bad, but I do need to be able to play within the rules of the game, including expressing scumreads and putting pressure on people to see how they react. If you can't handle someone suspecting you, I don't know what to tell you other than this might not be the game for you. I don't mean that in a mean way, but it is the truth.
  43. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by PQRnHack View Post
    I am afraid I am also not connecting the dots. Deathworld (in my town group) was pointing out that yes, scum can and will interfere, and increasing the number of lynches (via ITA) will not change this fact. Does that mean we start doing no-lynches (not plausible ofc) simply because scum will always have the ability to interfere? I think not.

    I do agree with you, SB16, however, that selecting multiple slots to terminate would be better done in later game than D1. But Seanzies also has a valid point that as towns start disappearing (NKs, lynches), we will have fewer shots to exercise the extra lynches in later game (and the quantity of scum will alter the balance as you said). There are pros and cons here, unfortunately: such is life (and game)
    I never said anything about that, the point you're attributing to me is not mine.

    Right now I am trying to get today's ITA strategy cemented. It will have to evolve with time, but I'm not worried about anything past today right now.
  44. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by BradLand View Post
    You gonna tunnel me for the third game in a row or are you going to learn how to read me? Also don't lie about what you did, it's starting to annoy me how much people lie in these fucking games and think it's fine.
    Starting to think you're scum here, so let's go with the tunnel option.

    I didn't lie. Sorry you're annoyed, but your feelings are on you. Perhaps you and I have a different view on the topic, but I wouldn't call what I did on Page 1 tunneling. You've never seen me tunnel. You might this game if you're scum though.
  45. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    I’m going to hold mine until I deem it necessary. Maybe there’s something I just don’t understand here. But trying to narrow the field to suit an active scum team doesn’t make sense to me.

    It doesn’t help that the current top trains are both players that I townread in some capacity.
    I don't understand your position. How does performing TKs suit an active scum team, and why are you so convinced the scum team is especially active this game?

    Who would you like to be the top train? Maybe two names, so like your preferred wagon/cw pair?
  46. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Loldebite View Post
    After thinking things through i agree with the sb/gikkle/frinckles stance : one shouldn't force anyone to shoot one of his TR. If they're the top wagon anyway, there should be enough people to get them gunned down. Especially if we ask of people who null read the slot to shoot too. I don't see any downside with that approach and it does give the possibility for more diverse counter-wagons, which is probably what we want to counter scum coordinating to manipulate wagons.
    The downside is that wolves can strategically choose when to shoot and when not to, and we are much less likely to actually get 2 TKs with this policy.
  47. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    I’m sorry, I do not see the benefit of forcing people to use their kills on people they townread. That sounds like it’s a way for wolves to coordinate and get specific people lynched or scumpainted.

    Activity isn’t alignment indicative and this plan puts power into people with more activity. It isn’t good for town to shoot their townreads and it isn’t good for town to pool all of their power into the people who are voting more actively. My first vote came in just recently but it’s a well founded vote that I feel has a lot of power and momentum behind it. I won’t be shooting the top wagon just because active players (read: potential powerwolves) aren’t voting with me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    You’re forgetting scum has a 24/7 chat.

    Scum can coordinate to put one ITA target at the top, then get shots on that target, then move to get another person mislynched.
    With the attitude in your first post, we might as well just forfeit now, because according to this, scum essentially controls both the TK and the NK, which means this game is unwinnable... I'm going to chalk this up to you not really being familiar with 24/7 scumchat though thanks to your second comment quoted here, so let me speak to you about that.

    I think you are strongly overlooking that if wolves block-vote like this, it becomes really obvious, both at the time and later on doing wagonomics. Sure, 24/7 scum chat allows for more coordination between wolves, but if 2-3 people jump on a wagon that flips town at the last minute without good reason, that is suspicious. This draws attention to both the people voting and the potential CW's at the time. In addition, any townies involved in such a move will have natural suspicion on the other people involved in such a CW, which puts wolves that block-vote in a weird position where they need to be good at scum theatre, or they're outed (and most wolves are not good at scum theatre IME). So like... yes, scum can theoretically control who we kill with an ITA, but they have to more-or-less out in order to do it. This isn't MyLo, so I'm okay letting the scum team out themselves to control one TK.

    As someone who plays almost exclusively with 24/7 scum chat, this is a concern, but not nearly as large of a concern as you're making it. If it was such a big factor, scum would win almost every game with 24/7 scum chat by simply block-voting, and that just doesn't happen.
  48. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Gikkle View Post
    I didn't claim neutral. And the way you phrase my stance on the plan irks me, because it construes what I said as worse than it actually is. Why would I ever shoot someone I thought was town? It's such an unlikely scenario that probably won't even happen anyways, so I might as well have just agreed with the plan whole heartedly.
    If you don't understand how your posts regarding the plan give the wolves an easy out, I don't know what to say. If you're town, then you've made it much harder for us to successfully pull of a major +EV plan, and if you're wolf, well good job undermining what would make your life much much worse. Yes, it is unlikely enough that it would have been better to not mention it, and so now I am stuck trying to decide if you mentioning it was a townie making a mistake or a wolf doing something strategic.
  49. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    This puts Gikkle in the lead for the first ITA TK btw, which is in about 7 hours.
  50. Forum:Archived S-FMs

    Thread:S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008

    Thread Author:Guillo

    Post Author:Seanzie

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    ►►Re: S-FM 338: Deck Mafia #008◄◄

    -vote Gikkle


    I'm conflicted on PQR as they remind me too much of a few people I know that I have a hard time reading, so I don't want my vote there any more.

    While I don't think Gikkle has been overtly scummy persay, they have definitely been anti-town IMO. Things like them claiming neutral and them both agreeing to the plan while also essentially saying they weren't going to follow it aren't doing town any favors, and their general demeanor makes me think that as town, they'd be doing less anti-town stuff. Plus... claiming scum is something that some scum love to do, and I don't like to leave those sorts of things hanging. Furthermore, Gekkle's reads list seems to be just repeating this consensus that PQR and I are town (I know PQR is a bit more contentious than I am right now, but still a common townread), while also trying to appease the people who pushed back against him for the aforementioned anti-town behavior around the plan.

    So, kinda along Frinkle's point, I could see Gikkle being a wolf trying to play it cool here.
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