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    [Role Change] ►►Re: Cult should convert night immune NKs◄◄

    Cult and Masons definitely needs some changes.
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    [Role Change] ►►Re: Cult should convert night immune NKs◄◄

    I like the flavor.
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    [Role Change] ►►Re: Cult should convert night immune NKs◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Grakylan View Post
    its why cult needs a complete overhaul wink wink nudge nudge
    Yeah yeah >_>
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    [Role Change] ►►Re: Cult should convert night immune NKs◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Eight View Post
    Hey Frinckles, would you take this time to address allowing swinger/heartbreaker to have the option of not notifying their target being loved?
    Kind of derailing the thread but okay,

    That doesn't sound fair. In fact it sounds like an easy claim for non-town to make at any time. Any evil about to be lynched by a mayor could say "yeah well if you kill me you'll die."

    Swinger/HB make it very clear that "you are being held hostage and if I die you are dead too." The lack of ambiguity is important for decision making for each party.
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    [Role Change] ►►Re: Cult should convert night immune NKs◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by GiskardReventlov View Post
    If you roll Serial Killer in a dedicated Cult save, you're fucked. You have to fight both the Town and the Cult, where the Cult is really just a Town clique. If instead you can play the game as a potential Cultist and eliminate dangerous roles such as Mason Leader, Doctor or Bodyguard, you can get converted at the end of the game (win) and also help the Cult at the start.

    Also, eliminating an NK, if anything, screws the Cult over, because they're eliminating +1 night kill from the game that can help them. (Esp. due to W.D. normally being in the game which means serial-killed targets can be converted to Cult)
    I mean isn't that just a fundamental issue with how cult mechanics work? I added the cult leader option so that it's possible for a killing role to dismantle the entire cult by finding the original one.
  6. ►►Re: Electro and Poisoner Considered Useless: Frinckles Manages to Ignore the Community Once Again◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I'll just disable all the new roles and host my own lobbies. If I get repicked then to echo the famous clan, CHOO CHOO. It's not worth playing useless broken roles.

    I'm not going to run the numbers to reveal the obvious, because even if I did you wouldn't back down on your stubbornness to fix the broken roles

    I have a lot of problems with some of the new roles, but I chose to focus on these two because it is the most blatant and glaring example of your "vision" just not working. Poll the community on it.

    Please don't add more roles. Far too many were rushed through as it is.
    Nothing has stopped you or other players from disabling them before. I know Exeter disables some support roles so bringing that up is pointless.

    You said we can do the math and run the numbers in your first post. Do it. You think in your world where Poisoner and EM have night immunity they won't be killed by a jailor? Is that just good luck? Okay then how about a kidnapper who has two teammates to reduce the pool? You don't want to run the numbers because you know your wrong.

    You played like 3 games last night, one of which ironically had an Electromaniac jailed and killed n1. If only he had been night immune right?

    Post what you don't like about other roles. Guy made a fantastic post about his thoughts on them and you just complained about lover and NI the whole time. I can't read your mind. Hell, tell me what you think about day kills. You can disable those too.
  7. ►►Re: Electro and Poisoner Considered Useless: Frinckles Manages to Ignore the Community Once Again◄◄

    I don't know why you insist on throwing a fit on Friday night when I wanted to relax and drink a few beers. I listened to everything Guy wrote and decided that he's right about a lot of things but just to be clear that he knows that I'll go ahead and ping him here @Guy

    Adjustments were made to Lover, Heartbreaker, Swinger, Poisoner and Electromaniac. Oracle will receive a slight buff next week in terms of how it interacts with being Sanitized, Caporegime will also get something to make it a bit better in a 3Mafia team. I don't agree with Guy's presumption that Party Host is underpowered because anyone who has been Mafia during a party knows how disruptive a party can be for coordination. As far as the Any Random balance problem goes, more roles will need to be released for Neutral Benign (and Neutral Evil) to balance it out; That means I need time to actually make them but I acknowledge it is a concern.

    I also want to add that when I said "I suppose I play them differently" in regards to Heartbreaker/Swinger I should have elaborated. When I play Heartbreaker for example, I love somebody on night one and publicly claim that THEY were the one who loved me whilst claiming Doctor or something. Most of the time, doing so gives the town a 50/50 that I can usually win if they even choose to lynch there. I recognize that not all players want to present that kind of challenge each game and so I considered options to make the role a bit more flexible. In fact, let's go over what I patched last night.


    -Lover, Heartbreaker, Swinger have no restriction on when they can target, why? As I said above, I agreed with you that sometimes it sucked having to be locked onto a slot on the first night. PQR actually messaged me last night echoing the same thoughts because it limited the ability for the roles to actually try to deduce the best target for their ability. While I hope it doesn't make it too easy to win as, Lover will now be able to survive easier and find a good candidate to target. Similarly, Heartbreaker and Swinger will be able to latch onto confirmable roles or Town Gov to hold them hostage. I will continue to monitor how they do with these changes and if it proves to be too much, I'll probably make them use it by night 3.

    -Electromaniac can now charge two players as long as he did not electrocute anyone the prior night, why? Brock and Graky haven't been the only ones to bring up the fact that Electromaniac doesn't often get to make an impact in a game (gonna ping them too @Drizzt @Grakylan ) It simply takes too long to charge one person at a time and expect reasonable results so I let him charge two at the same time. You get Target A and Target B, and if you want to (idk why) you can actually just select Target A and the player will still get charged. That means a hypothetical 8 kill on night 4 which is in-line with some other neutral killing roles, the benefit being that if Godfather happens to be any of those unfortunate players, he gets toasted too. In fact, the way it is now, Electromaniac is possibly killing two players on the first night. The only thing stopping the EM from charging is whether or not one of his charges (specific to the EM) was involved in a kill the previous night, at which point you can still charge one person.

    -Poisoner can now block one night of attacks automatically (autovest), why? You weren't the only person requesting some sort of buff to Poisoner. NI isn't the only thing that has been requested. I buffed it by taking away doctor heals, autopoison on roleblockers etc. and I agree, the role was still a bit too weak. So I listened and caved I guess and gave it some form of night immunity. Previously I had given Witch and Spy similar forms of NI but they didn't really work on those roles and I figured that it might actually work decently on Poisoner. Thus far, it's been pretty okay and depending on the circumstances, Poisoner is now on-par or slightly stronger than SK. But for all the shit you give me about apparently "not listening to Guy" you seem to have not read what he wrote:

    Poisoner and Electromancer are fun roles to play with, but in the setting of 8331/933, Poisoner and Electromancer DO NOT have the ability to win games by themselves in ways that SK/Arso/MM usually do, and this is because of the lack of immunity. As frinkies has stated, giving those roles immunity might actually make them too strong for the town to handle, which is understandable thanks to the Poisoners similarity to 'dousing' and nigh-unblockable kill.
    You are teetering on the edge of stupid power creep cliff if you think night immunity is a solve-all for balance discrepancies. That's not how you balance a game. That's how you fuck up a game by making every role you concoct into a superman role that has to be lynched via the same player-base you talk shit about constantly. You will find yourself in more F3 Kingmaker situations because any other avenue of solving has been closed. They get to pick who wins now, why? Well not because of how well anyone played but just because they can. Why do you think Executioner does not have night immunity anymore? Why would you ever want to play Survivor over a night immune Exe?

    And honestly, what the fuck are you so scared of? You said you'd run the numbers. Do it. In it's current state, Electromaniac has one concern on N1; Hopefully don't get killed by a Godfather on night 1. Guess what though? Electromaniac can also charge two people and then Godfather might go up in smoke anyway. So again, what are you afraid of? Do you think a Vigilante shouldn't be allowed to actually remove a player from the game by playing good -- that he's only able to take out his teammates by having shit reads? Like give me a break. And regardless of any of this you never mention the fact that Constable, Double Flower and Arsonist can erase anyone who is night immune during the day. You apparently have no problem with that.

    I don't have a problem with Night Immunity. I made Armorsmith which is a role that literally fucking hands out night immunity. I've tried multiple occasions to see if night immunity worked on different roles. The difference is that in your mind it is a band-aid that you can slap on anything expecting good results and not thinking about the downsides. Sometimes you get killed on night one. Get over it and don't give me shit about it ruining the balance of the game because instead of a Godfather killing Poisoner or Electromaniac it could easily be a Jailor or Kidnapper who just so happened to pick right.

    I've been communicating with this community since day one including you. We have a discord chat log of our talks that's pretty extensive where I asked you specifically what you thought about a lot of different things. I've even made change to the game at your request but I guess you forgot. I guess you also forgot about about how like 10 of us, including you, were in voice chat on discord talking balance and design. But you know what it's all good, I respect you and appreciate your opinions on balance even if it's accompanied by incessant bitching. Just don't try to start a shitstorm on my Friday night when I'm relaxing and having a beer and don't accuse me of not playing the fucking game I develop or being out of touch with it. If you don't see me playing I'm probably not on my main account because I don't want to be bothered.
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    ►►Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game◄◄

    A new patch will be out on Friday night to address some of the concerns listed in this thread. One issue that's kind of standing out to me is the dilution if Any Random but that honestly just seems Iike an issue that will resolve itself once more non-town roles are added.

    The most needed roles (and also the most difficult to design) have always been NE and NB. I'll be looking into options to expand those two categories in the future.

    You all know I dont like power creep and I'm not gonna spill the beans on what's coming up but it should hopefully make some newer and older roles more competitive with their peers.

    In the meanwhile, keep shooting ideas. I'm lurkin
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    ►►Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game◄◄

    Also you probably don't want Electromaniac charging two players at once because the kill count would get out of control very quickly. He would need serious restrictions on that.
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    ►►Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game◄◄

    I've been really busy IRL lately but I'm trying to monitor what changes need to be made in a larger upcoming patch. I have already scaled back the addition of more roles and am aware of certain bugs related to save slots. Hoping I can have them fixed soon.

    I disagree with how Oracle feels. Yeah, it's ability is only active after death but confirmability is extremely powerful. Not only that, but if you consider the Mafia/Triad perspective it's almost always a preferable target to avoid. There are doctors who go an entire game without saving a target only to get lynched on the final day. That's just the nature of the game.

    Party Host feels fine to me. And I'd echo what Grak said above. You pointed out most Phosts use it on the first night which in itself has value. At that point everyone in the game knows the role exists. If anything I'd consider removing the option for a second party because the ability is very strong. It also helps put an emphasis on what players are talking/baiting or just playing the game without the duress of needing to cast a vote. It's ability is strong but as you point out, not as confirmable as vig or veteran -- that's one reason it was not put as a town gov.

    I intend to remove the vehicles from Street Racer next patch. It's unfortunate because I worked hard on making it a flavorful role that's a bit different each time but it opened up doors for abuse. Functionally I still think it's fine.

    Capo was designed for a 4 Mafia team initially but I can see why he might need a buff in a 3 Mafia team. Personally I use a Mafioso instead of a GF so he can use his ability on the Mafioso and have a 2/3 chance to do it again if he isn't swapped to Mafioso.

    I was rather surprised you didn't comment on 49er as much.

    I'm not sure I get the whole argument that Swinger/HB aren't useful. I suppose I play them differently. I'll think about giving the 3 roles (including lover) a bit more flexibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    I definitely don't play the mod enough to be familiar with the meta - but would adding an option for poisoner having a one time use vest be a solution to his lack of defense without making them too oppressive?

    I can't speak to any of the other problems mentioned as like I said - I don't actively play the mod. Just an outside perspective after reading.
    The one-shot vest effects were previous implemented on Spy and Witch and removed for different reasons. Now that you mention it though, I think it could work decently well on poisoner. There's a few different ways to do it:

    -one shot NI
    -one shot NI vs the first attack (so multiple attackers always kill)
    -one vest, usable at any time

    Theme takes a back seat to mechanics but I'd also re-write the role to account for why the Poisoner would have such an immunity. If it works out, I'd be willing to consider similar changes to Electromaniac.

    Good write up overall.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    -vote loldebite
    no point in delaying

    scum!loldebite knows to keep me alive or else it would be suspicious so he's playing at how reasonable it would be for me to still be alive. there is a 1% chance renegade told MM to bus him the entire game which would essentially be the laziest and funniest scum strategy ive ever seen. might be true but i dont buy it because there were other interactions from MM that don't lend themselves to that conclusion. if im wrong, my bad fellas.

    also this is technically 16 i think so ill stop typing.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    this dude really just turned on invisible mode i bet
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    i already made up my mind that it's loldebite anyway.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    No u, invisible mode user. What is the benefit of casting a vote right now lol
    to clear me so i dont have to read bullshit from either of you
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    @Marshmallow Marshall i see you lurking, vote.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    And you can use the @ with their name as long as you spell it right.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    I just want you two to vote eachother so I can hammer the person I think is Mafia.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Do they get paid leave?
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    @deathworlds is mafia able to communicate 24/7
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    You guys can cross.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by deathworlds View Post
    Day will be extended three hours to compensate for time that thread was closed
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    Smh clearly Frinckles is scum for closing the thread

    -vote Frinckles


    I'll be voting Renegade in a few hours.
    Oh shit did I accidently close it? I don't even press anything near that checkbox. Weird.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Loldebite View Post
    No, I think clearing martin is fine. I do think he is giving you an easy pass, tho. I feel like you're not careless like you usually are and I feel bad about it. Maybe I expect too much of you, though.
    As I said, I think renegade can be scum, but who could renegade be paired with ? You've said it yourself : if he is scum with MM, that's the bus of the year. He can't be scum with martin because and also I really don't want martin to be scum and him being paired with you makes even less sense than a Ren/MM pairing IMO.
    Moreover, he feels very much like he was the last game I've played with them, whereas you don't.

    It seems we do agree, Renegade being scum makes the most sense if I am scumm too, and here I do have more information : I'm not scum, so it can't be me.
    Not sure that world building F3 is a good idea.

    EDIT: interupted this post because I saw votes. whoever voted first is outed scum IMHO
    I'm not being careless in a F5 after basically getting Ozy lynched, an AFK slot and no power role, so that makes me scum here?

    Renegade is paired with you as far as I'm concerned. It's the only pairing that makes sense here and I will hopefully not be alive to have to deal with F3 anyway.

    Now you can tell me all you'd like about how you know you're town, but this is F5 and I can tell you something as someone with an actual vote on them; if me and Renegade were TvT, this game would be over by now. Enough time to hammer both of us has passed and you three aren't known for slow rolling.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Ugh I shouldn't have said that. Now scum!MM would have an out to win in F3. Fuck me.

    -vote renegade
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I'm waiting to see what MM has to say, but at this juncture I am ready to vote Frinckles or Martin. Preferably Frinckles.
    MM choosing not to vote you at this stage in the game would basically be a gigantic neon sign saying "I AM SCUM AND IT WAS ALL A BUS."

    I would keep that in mind @Loldebite
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Loldebite View Post
    No mischaracterization but I do feel like the timeline in here isn't entirely honest ; 1, 2 & 3 all happened at once. 4 was true from D2 onwards, because at the time (cf the readslist below, straight out of my git history. This was right at SoD, I kinda dropped the tripartite thunderdome thingy as the day went on) I had most people at null and thus was fine with any one of those being the lynch.
    Spoiler : readslist after flip + n1 kill :
    # Confident town

    Norwee

    # Probable Town

    Mizery
    Frinckles

    # Null

    Renegade
    Marshmallow Marshall
    OzyWho
    MartinGG99

    # CONFIRMED 100% trust me scum

    At least one of [Frinckles, Mizery, Martin]
    EoD train was far too fishy, there has to be at least one scum in it, and I know I'm not.
    Might even be 2 with one of [Frinckles, Mizery] protecting Martin.

    I started TRing renegade after D4.

    Renegade not answering my questions is exactly what I've learned to expect from renegade, hence the comment you mention in #2.

    My fixation on which slots ?
    Here's a compilation of everyone mentioned in your handpicked extracts :
    Martin 5
    Ren 3
    MM 4
    Frinckles 6
    Mizery 3
    oliverz 1
    SB 2

    The # of mentions more or less scale with # of games played with one another, the mayor exception being Martin because of my D2 push, which is exactly how I'd expect things to be.

    All that being said, I very much agree with your conclusion : this game was pushed in this direction for a very specific reason. I expected you to die instead of Mizery, but that's probably because i know you more than Mizery, and thus expect scum to fear you more than they fear Mizery.
    EDIT: Now that I think about it, it makes sense that Mizery died considering they had experience with low post count games.

    I think you're pushing me because I'm the easiest target, both because I already have been under pressure D2 and because I've been mediocre these past days.

    You told me about trusting the dead, and it's the second time someone dies after looking sideways at MM :



    Spoiler : varcron's post on MM :




    BONUS ROUND :

    How does this look in retrospect ? "haha joking frink not conftown yet FMPOV"



    I now feel confident the scum duo is MM & Frinckles, I'm terribly sorry if I'm wrong but I really don't see frinckles being town here. Martin convinced me & I currently TR renegade above MM.

    I had planned to post that in some form or another much, much earlier but I had the busiest & shittiest day I've had in many months. If you wanna react, feel free ; I won't go to sleep just now, but I won't stay up for 2 hours.
    I'm not pushing you because you're an easy target. On the contrary, I've wanted you to be town this entire game and I guess you still could be but fmpov there are 2 scum in a pool of 3 people.

    Do you think I'm clearing Martin from my PoE too easily? Is he clearing me too easily?
    Why isn't Renegade scum here from your point of view?
    How can I see MM and Renegade on a team when MM pushed him the entire time?

    These are the questions that I had to ask myself to get where I am now. If I can't reconcile the pushes from MM on Renegade with the explanation that it was at minimum, an insane bus, then the conclusion is Renegade+Loldebite 2/2.

    You both fired back responses putting me on a scumteam with MM and I anticipate it's designed for when Renegade flips red at EoD so Loldebite has something to take into F3. He would be able to push the bus theory freely and at that point it will be me or Martin making a tough choice for the win, or loss.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I think you and Martin are just coming right out and saying you are scum, and trying to get a single vote from Loldebite or MM. MM has been all over me all game so I'm not surprised they are alive and part of your plan. Martin if you are town then this is exactly what Frinckles has aimed for. Your vote. But I am extremely doubtful. I find it hard to believe two players would be so confident about themselves both being town in a F5 3v2 situation.




    Yes, I have been gunning for you all game. I'm so sure of it, and if you lynch me well the game is over. We have to lynch scum today, and this wall of scum paint sadly enough may convince one of the two other towns.

    Frinckles + MM world is absolutely reasonable. That is why if Martin IS town, he is making a huge mistake by putting all his chips in the Frinckles basket. Again I don't see why Martin couldn't fathom a Scum!Frinckles world, and that is what has me extremely concerned.

    This early aloofness - late heavy scumpaint is exactly how you played the last game you were scum in. You were a cop if I recall. What game was that?
    Everyone in this game knows lynching town!Renegade would be the end of it but you're not town. And I'm not really sure why you are appealing to Martin here after you wanted him gone just as much as you wanted me gone. Its not concerning -- its literally the expected result. And really, a town renegade would be wondering why MM didnt fuck off this entire game. If the scum team is Martin+MM then shit that sucks but I highly doubt it. I've ISO'd all four of you to hell and back and made the best conclusion I think I can given the post restrictions.

    As far as that last bit, I'm not sure what you're saying and I'm going to assume you mistyped because you said I was cop and scum. Or maybe you mean I was some Mafia cop? I'm not sure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Frankly, the simple VCA points right at you and Martin.

    Pigeonhole principle tells me AT LEAST one of MM, Frinckles, or Martin is scum based on the Ozy lynch:

    OzyWho (4 [L-1]):
    Marshmallow Marshall, MartinGG99, Renegade, Frinckles

    I'm taking Occam's razor to this one. I'm done with the big brain plays of Sc2mafia and sometimes the simplest solution is the most obvious. Simplest here is that scum was on both trains. Martin and Frinckles.
    I admit VCA makes me look bad but I already said I didn't intend to hold my vote on Ozy and I was like the first one to apologize for that. If he had been alive, I could possibly have Mizery or Ozy as another slot to not have to worry about. In essence I made the game harder on myself even after the Oliver Modkill and lack of a librarian.

    Holding town to the expectation that they will never mislynch will always come from scum or a naive town member, especially in this setup and given the circumstances. If Martin is town, and I believe he is, I have a 66% chance of hitting scum here and those odds aren't bad.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    I guess VCA makes an argument for ren+MM too. Both were on Ozy, but then that silly line from Loldebite about being down to lynch Ren comes out while he was there for EOD. Eh.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    I approve of Frinckles' wall and conclusions.

    I figured I would say what I said earlier in case Frinckles was debating on whether or not it was a TvT, by presuming Renegade to be somehow town.

    As for whether its MM or Loldebite to be paired with them, I'm uncertain. However, I do think I'm leaning less on it being MM on the basis that:

    1) If Renegage is scum, then the reason he gave for Norwee being killed is almost certainly the reason Norwee was killed. So the whole "it could've been done for MM's sake" is less relevant.
    2) Arguably, as shown by Frinckles, Loldebite could also have been spinning the wheels.
    3) Varcron

    Anyways, I'll probably dive more into that more tomorrow IRL. I would rather figure out what the post-Ren suspect is with Frinkles still around (if he has anything to say) rather than just waiting for the F3.

    A response from MM about all of this (just in general; whatever thoughts that do occur to him) would be great.
    It's possible for it to be MM over Loldebite, but then somewhere in this world is a discord chat with Renegade saying "bus the ever-living shit out of me and don't stop" or something along those lines.

    That'd be ridiculous, but its certainly possible.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    And truth be told, this day is already over. Martin and I townread eachother, Loldebite said he townread me and MM already said he would vote Renegade (in addition to doing literally everything in his power to kill him anyway.)
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    2/2
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm still in the process of trying to figure out whether Loldebite or MM has more scum equity right now and without that, I don't know how this game ends. What I do know is that this day will end with either me or you lynched because we're to the point where a TvT situation would be completely unrecoverable. I find that last bit particularly freaky because Martin/Loldebite/MM have all said they townread me this game. It's gonna be pretty awkward here in a bit.

    ------------
    Anyway, I don't think Loldebite/MM OR Loldebite/Martin OR Martin/MM make sense. I can elaborate if you want.

    So, again the decision before me is whether Renegade is with Loldebite or MM.

    If I had to guess, I'd say the scum team is Renegade/Loldebite here. MM has been pushing the living hell out of Renegade and they'd win my nomination for bus of the year if that's what I'm looking at.

    ISO MM right now and count how many times they either voted Renegade or asked others about how they felt about Renegade or asked if anyone else wanted to kill Renegade or just constantly really wanted to fucking kill Renegade lmao.

    BONUS ROUND

    To get a little more in-depth about the Renegade+Loldebite solve, I have a few more examples but before I do I'll go over a few quick observations that don't really need a whole quote attached to them. Let me know if this feels like a mischaracterization of your posts @Loldebite

    1. Loldebite says he is bad at reading Renegade's slot. (That's okay, I suck at reading MM's slot usually.)
    2. Loldebite has a spurt of being annoyed by Renegade's "Infuriating uncommunicativeness."
    3. Loldebite moves him to a null read.
    4. Loldebite would have been okay with a Renegade lynch.
    5. Loldebite ISOs Ren decides that Renegade is a okay feller who would never hurt a fly.
    6. You are here.

    People change their reads all the time blah blah blah. So where's the actual content or interaction to supplement these changes? I don't see it. Loldebite, you say you ISO'd Renegade but you didn't notice him not answering your question in #173? Why wouldn't you press him on that?

    This last bit is kind of tinfoil hat shit, but I'll run it.

    Remember when I said to Renegade certain people were kept alive for a reason? Well, while I'm bringing up #173, there's another pattern I noticed: Loldebite's fixation on our slots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loldebite View Post

    ===

    I'd love to get more from martin, ren & frinckles.
    Spoiler : reads list :

    # Confident town

    Norwee


    # Probable Town

    Mizery


    # Town feel

    OzyWho
    Renegade
    Frinckles


    # Null

    Marshmallow Marshall


    # scum feel

    MartinGG99


    Bottom four, across the board. There's more:

    Quote Originally Posted by Loldebite View Post
    Ren, you seem to be trusting MM or me more than martin, why ?
    And,

    Quote Originally Posted by Loldebite View Post
    I don't think frinckles is doing anything special compared to other games I've played with him, and IIRC I've only seen him as town, and since MM is voting ren I guess I could get behind their Martin train, thought I don't really like it.

    Also oliverz isn't afk anymore so imma just
    -vote oliverz144
    for now
    And yeah, obviously #131

    Quote Originally Posted by Loldebite View Post
    I would vote to pressure Frinckles because I really wanna hear from him but I don't wanna leave a hanging vote for so long. Also, Frinckles is not (yet) voting me, whereas Martin & Mizery that were on SB's train too, are. If I stand by my hypothesis then it means that either the other town(ies) of the train all genuinely believe I'm scum, which doesn't seem likely, or the scum in SB's train is either Mizery or Martin.

    MM, what are your thoughts on people beside me ?
    Same about mizery, I'm not sure what to make of your norwee/ren/me list. Lynch pool ? Is it up to date ? Why am I on the list and not Frinckles ?

    In case I do die, I want frinckles to have my briefs andMM my white flag. Goodbye
    ----

    I think this game was pushed in this direction for a very specific reason. Loldebite has been the player spinning the wheels and Renegade was putting breadcrumbs on the ground.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    This is a two part so it's easier for responses. 1/2

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Martin
    Honestly you ooze so much emotion throughout this game via your rhetoric, the way you type, grammatical shifts etc. You started off the game in a apathetic mood and it is reflected throughout your ISO in your first post and multiple times afterward (hope you feel better afterwards, by the way -- shit happens but that's okay.) When Renegade pushed you to contribute more you explained all this to him directly:

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    There isn't much more to it, its what I have right now with the posts that are available to me.

    I didn't really put my usual amount of focus/effort into this game until now because of the trainwreck that was the game that I hosted, which kinda demotivated me for FM in general, but also this was a low-post game and I don't generally have interest in those. But I feel more interested again and so here I am.

    Preferably I would not like to die, as then I would have no say on what happens later with the town's discussions.
    You also disagreed with Renegade on other things like Ozy being LHF after you had just ended a massive back-and-forth with Ozy; hell at one point you even voted Renegade. There are some things I thought were weird about your slot, like entertaining a no-lynch or possibly pocketing me; but honestly I can't find a scenario where you're scum here. There's a couple reasons for that -- post count, tone, validity of arguments and a few other small things. But one of the biggest things that popped out to me was that not once, but four times you've reminded players to achieve their post counts out of concern of them being mod-killed. There is no reason for scum to mention this and certainly no reason for scum to be so insistent on doing this particularly over an AFK slot like Oliver or Loldebite right before F5.

    Between your pushbacks/votes on Renegade, frustrated interactions with Loldebite, and hyper-awareness of the fact that you and MM didn't interact* (enough to even taunt Ozy) it seems pretty apparent that you're least likely scum here. *side note, you two did interact later on.

    -------
    So, then this is usually the really difficult part where I need to find the last town member and then the F5 tug of war begins.
    -------

    Renegade
    You've been gunning for me and Martin since the game began basically, like non-stop and frankly to the point where you didn't need to even type a post like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I'm entirely convinced that Frinckles and Martin are the scum pair. I am also suspicious of how the Loldebite train formed and fizzled just as quickly.

    In retrospect voting Ozy was a mistake on my part. But he was acting extremely strange and his vote on me was extremely forced and nitpicky.

    Frinckles & Martin were on BOTH trains.

    Frinckles acts aloof when he is scum based on several games I've played with him. He is much more analytical and to the point when he is town, much more willing to solve the game. His day 1 ALONE is enough to convince me is he scum.

    Frinckles claims his meta is pointless, of course that is what he wants us to think.

    It is extremely obvious to me Martin and Frinckles are scum, at the very least ONE of them, and will do everything I can do convince the rest of you of this if it isn't already obvious to you already.

    As for seeing the Norwee flip, I don't think it is that surprising. I'm not sure anyone ever voted them all game so they had some level of implicit universal town reading.

    That is all for now. Obviously I am in favor of skipping.
    or this

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I've seen Frinckles play with this aloof attitude before as scum. So part of it is on meta. He doesn't strike me as town, and for all the criticism several are lobbing at me, what has frinckles added? Look at his posts today, completely empty. He wastes posts by saying "im not librarian" and then following it up with "i'm not going to fakeclaim librarian". He isn't even trying to be a good steward of the limited ability to speak. I won't apologize for scum reading him for that.
    I don't remember playing scum with you in the game. I barely remember playing scum at all, actually. But if this was my scum-meta I'd certainly have a remarkable one since the entirety of the game has considered me a top townread or was reluctant to vote me despite your incessant pushing. Honestly though, none of this matters because I know well enough that even if you were town there would be zero way for me convince you that I'm town at this point in the game anyway. You didn't earn a townread from me and I didn't earn a townread from you and we can apologize to deathchat pre-emptively if this is TvT. This would be an impossible position.

    But honestly I don't think it is. You've literally breadcrumbed up to this point by pushing me and Martin in a way. I know I'm Town and I'm thinking there must be a reason I'm alive over someone like Norwee, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    As for seeing the Norwee flip, I don't think it is that surprising. I'm not sure anyone ever voted them all game so they had some level of implicit universal town reading.
    Yeah, I admit I townread Norwee but you just read the room wrong here. Norwee was pushed plenty this game by different people. And on a related note, Varcron and Norwee both pushed MM on days one and two respectively. Whether that makes MM scum #2 here is up in the air, but if you were actually worldbuilding a scumteam, a town!renegade would never ever posit a Frinckles+Martin team over a Frinckles+MM team or even Frinckles+Loldebite

    You're telling me town!renegade read this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall;967899About the lynch: is it wrong if I do not understand how we reached a Stealth lynch [I
    at all[/I]? What was he even voted for? @Frinckles @Loldebite you two sheeped Mizery's unexplained vote on Stealth for very weak / nonexistent reasons (town takeover and basically admittedly sheeping, respectively). What was that?

    -vote loldebite
    because he's less known than Frinckles for doing such things as town... but he well could act like this as scum too lol
    And you never wanted to worldbuild that from your perspective Frinckles+MM might seem reasonable?

    You're telling me town!renegade read this reply from Loldebite to Ozy:

    Quote Originally Posted by Loldebite View Post
    I would vote to pressure Frinckles because I really wanna hear from him but I don't wanna leave a hanging vote for so long. Also, Frinckles is not (yet) voting me, whereas Martin & Mizery that were on SB's train too, are. If I stand by my hypothesis then it means that either the other town(ies) of the train all genuinely believe I'm scum, which doesn't seem likely, or the scum in SB's train is either Mizery or Martin.

    MM, what are your thoughts on people beside me ?
    Same about mizery, I'm not sure what to make of your norwee/ren/me list. Lynch pool ? Is it up to date ? Why am I on the list and not Frinckles ?
    Speaking of whom, what do you think of that weird ass train ?

    5/15, hopefully will be able to post more.
    In case I do die, I want frinckles to have my briefs andMM my white flag. Goodbye
    And you never wanted to worldbuild that from your perspective Frinckles+Loldebite might seem reasonable? He's literally hesitating to vote me and it'd mark the second silly/joking interaction we've had all game with next to zero actual content.

    So what I'm seeing is that you just jumped over to Frinckles+Martin while reciting the words 'weird' and 'aloof' repeatedly. You kept the both of us alive and killed outside so that you could pan back and say "hey, look I called it" when it boiled down to a F5. As if all the reasons I posted above weren't enough to constitute a TR on Martin from me, your play kind of seals the deal.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Okay, so that kill was completely unsurprising. Time to write a massive post and solve the game.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    So... you're scummy, but that's your town meta? I wouldn't say it is btw lol. You don't even consider your own play to be towny? In this case, how are you town?

    ...and in the meantime, Renegade is just restating that it's Frinckles' scum meta without giving the evidence I asked for ("several games"...), which is not exactly helpful. I do like his point about the Loldebite wagon that just disappeared into the void, though, but he's not pushing the thought further, despite it deserving further investigation.

    Idk. We should have lynched Renegade or Frinckles yesterday, but there was zero interest for it.

    Also Mizery, "not actually saying things" is straight up false? My thoughts on Renegade/Frinckles are actually more relevant than "I'm alive but my townreads are dead", so according to your own reasoning, you'd be >randwolf yourself...
    Town players don't always exude town characteristics. And If Renegade wants to stick on pushing my lynch that's fine, we will see who flips tomorrow and go from there. Wolves don't need any help picking a target right now.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Loldebite View Post
    I gotta go to sleep and will post the required words tomorrow.



    This has to be an insult. What did I do ? I'm sorry

    Also this "loldefortnite" feels dejāvu but it didn't come up in my searches. Strange.
    I just thought it was a funny play on words.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Their choice will be more than they bargained for. You dont want me in f5. And you don't want miz there either. Kind of makes me lament over ozy being gone more.

    But I'm not sold on.loldefortnite/Martin and I had a feeling somebody(s) were spinning the wheels.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Mafia will kill me or Mizery tonight.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Leave it to the French to write a bunch of bureaucratic shit just to lynch the host.

    But also I'm kind of down for that.
    -vote deathworlds


    Anyway. Discussing my meta is pointless, has been pointless and will be pointless literally forever. I haven't even rolled scum in almost 2 years (maybe 2 years already) and my town meta of scummyness is just my playstyle.
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    @Mizery

    Don't forget word-count.
    -vote unvote


    that would be a dumb way to lose
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Mizery View Post
    i will sue
    I've seen worse happen. :/
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    inb4 Oliver librarian
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    We should probably refrain from even discussing who to lynch in f5. Just iso and think hard I guess.
    -vote skip
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    ►►Re: S-FM 343: Trip to the Library Gamethread◄◄

    I'm normally "eh whatever" about mislynching but I kind of dropped the ball not being here for EOD2. Ozy was higher on my list than most people alive, I just wanted to push him a bit.
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