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[QUOTE=Marshmallow Marshall;852286]It is quite common to see townies, and more rarely, scums, question their own choices because of their own doubt; it is also common to see people (often the target of the victim's suspicions) try to make others doubt of their own reasoning without directly entering an argument with them. My question is : do you think that gaslighting is a valid strategy, both efficiency-wise and moral-wise (excluding the rule-breaking version of it)?[/QUOTE]

I believe this is a psychological game and fostering doubt or even flat out calling someones logic bad is absolutely acceptable. My personal ethical line is that it be slot directed or play critiquing as opposed to attacking the player. There is a difference between attacking an argument or the approach being taken and attacking the person themselves. Many people loose that difference and take it personally. But who's fault is that? If I scum read you and it makes you feel bad is it my fault for scum reading your play or yours for taking personal offence that your slot is scum read?

I played a game 2 days ago where a guy accused the town of gaslighting him and made a massive guilttrip post. I knew nobody had personally attacked him in any way that entire day and he was just making a massive ATE appeal because of the heavy pressure he was taking but it still made me uncomfortable. He took the game from being a fun and turned it into some kind of personal violation in order to gain an in game advantage. The funny thing was that he was so prone to doing it 2 people in the game literally posted something like "Here comes his ATE" before he even posted it. Actually.. I will just grab semi-quotes.
[SPOILER=quote]"-------- is preparing his ate"
"Perhaps it's because I know my own alignment and I'm autistic, but to me it's so obvious I'm town, other people not seeing that feels like a personal attack.

People have been gaslighting me today, and I know it's just a game, but it's crossing the border to emotional abuse. It's in a real fucked up territory where I have to get on the good side of some of the abusers to survive because they're allies, but I don't even fucking know who my allies are.[/SPOILER]I mean.. The guy even admits in his own post that people scum reading him is not personal but he calls them abusers and positions himself as a victim to make others feel bad? Fuck that..

Why is it considered so ok to manipulate others from the victim position? I see the same thing in real life especially with would be 'nice guys,' where they guilt trip a kind girl into whatever by leveraging the girls empathy. Its like a different kind of predator just waiting to prey on kindness to get what they want. On a larger society level we fail to hold people accountable for masquerading as a victim regardless of the damage it causes others. Its like we use hit words that gives a blanket vindication for rude behavior. Some level of thick skin is required to sit around for 8 hours in a day and defend yourself from people calling your play scummy when in your head as a townie that equates to 'you preformed poorly.'

I think the fact we use the term 'Gaslighting' is in itself a reflection of this problem. The etymology is pretty dark representing a time when women couldent divorce and sadistic husbands would psychologically abuse them until their minds were so broken they questioned their own sanity. I mean.. Does that compare to someone saying 'you play a video game like shit' at all?

I dont think its ok to make someone feel bad regardless of if its done by being mean or making them feel responsible for causing you pain.

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

It is quite common to see townies, and more rarely, scums, question their own choices because of their own doubt; it is also common to see people (often the target of the victim's suspicions) try to make others doubt of their own reasoning without directly entering an argument with them. My question is : do you think that gaslighting is a valid strategy, both efficiency-wise and moral-wise (excluding the rule-breaking version of it)?

I believe this is a psychological game and fostering doubt or even flat out calling someones logic bad is absolutely acceptable. My personal ethical line is that it be slot directed or play critiquing as opposed to attacking the player. There is a difference between attacking an argument or the approach being taken and attacking the person themselves. Many people loose that difference and take it personally. But who's fault is that? If I scum read you and it makes you feel bad is it my fault for scum reading your play or yours for taking personal offence that your slot is scum read?

I played a game 2 days ago where a guy accused the town of gaslighting him and made a massive guilttrip post. I knew nobody had personally attacked him in any way that entire day and he was just making a massive ATE appeal because of the heavy pressure he was taking but it still made me uncomfortable. He took the game from being a fun and turned it into some kind of personal violation in order to gain an in game advantage. The funny thing was that he was so prone to doing it 2 people in the game literally posted something like "Here comes his ATE" before he even posted it. Actually.. I will just grab semi-quotes.

Spoiler : quote :

"-------- is preparing his ate"
"Perhaps it's because I know my own alignment and I'm autistic, but to me it's so obvious I'm town, other people not seeing that feels like a personal attack.

People have been gaslighting me today, and I know it's just a game, but it's crossing the border to emotional abuse. It's in a real fucked up territory where I have to get on the good side of some of the abusers to survive because they're allies, but I don't even fucking know who my allies are.

I mean.. The guy even admits in his own post that people scum reading him is not personal but he calls them abusers and positions himself as a victim to make others feel bad? Fuck that..

Why is it considered so ok to manipulate others from the victim position? I see the same thing in real life especially with would be 'nice guys,' where they guilt trip a kind girl into whatever by leveraging the girls empathy. Its like a different kind of predator just waiting to prey on kindness to get what they want. On a larger society level we fail to hold people accountable for masquerading as a victim regardless of the damage it causes others. Its like we use hit words that gives a blanket vindication for rude behavior. Some level of thick skin is required to sit around for 8 hours in a day and defend yourself from people calling your play scummy when in your head as a townie that equates to 'you preformed poorly.'

I think the fact we use the term 'Gaslighting' is in itself a reflection of this problem. The etymology is pretty dark representing a time when women couldent divorce and sadistic husbands would psychologically abuse them until their minds were so broken they questioned their own sanity. I mean.. Does that compare to someone saying 'you play a video game like shit' at all?

I dont think its ok to make someone feel bad regardless of if its done by being mean or making them feel responsible for causing you pain.