Search:

[QUOTE=Helz;1009088]
Where would you guys land on the subject and what other issues do you feel like cross that boundary? I could probably rattle off quite a few other concepts I struggled with this line but at the end of the day I even question where community management should land on the issue. Should we focus on individuals creating a good experience for themselves or should we focus on a larger amount of people having a good experience? Basic function of hedonism vs utilitarianism there but as an approach for moderators and community managers its an interesting concept..[/QUOTE]

My personal life philosophy, which I tend to apply to a lot of things nowadays internally, is to live as meaningfully as I can. Without diving into it, its basically a principle that sometimes has forever-shifting objectives [SIZE=1](sidenote: this is also its biggest flaw -- something that is contrary/contrarian has meaning and this can easily be extended is a very meta way)[/SIZE] but in practice for me has often followed thoughts that I think people would say are aligned with utilitarianism but isn't married to it.

[QUOTE=Helz;1017268]For giggles; other questionable strats:

Crunching other game history data to identify idiosyncratic patterns in a current game [COLOR="#FFA07A"]Never really felt there was any ethical "wrongness" with it.[/COLOR]
Breaking down sociometric patterns to identify interaction patterns in a current game [COLOR="#FFA07A"]Same as above.[/COLOR]
Eliciting emotions to draw reads [COLOR="#FFA07A"]grey area -- what emotions to elicit and how are they elicited? The "what" could be okay but not the "how" and vice versa and etc.[/COLOR]
Leveraging empathy in oog claims (like your grandma is sick or w/e) for in game reasons [COLOR="#FFA07A"]Don't think its questionable unless you're talking about situations where you're not safe IRL.[/COLOR]
Pushing false reads based on unverifiable info (like meta reads) to push a view you can’t justify [COLOR="#FFA07A"]Fair game in like 99% of cases I see of this. I can imagine a 1% where its not okay but I don't think I'll ever see it more than once in my career.[/COLOR]
Going ad hominem / attacking a players credibility in order to hinder them from pushing their reads [COLOR="#FFA07A"]Fair game so long as its not a personal attack (i.e. saying they're a bad player in general). Might be more acceptable if you attack via amplifying someone else's creditability instead or do a comparative.[/COLOR]
Misrepresenting a hosts rules / statements to shift how players will play [COLOR="#FFA07A"]Not okay imo but hard to prove someone intentionally doing that[/COLOR]

Off the top of my head those are some other concepts I would question if they should be acceptable. Kinda draws back to sociology where there are laws, norms, and taboos. What’s is ‘cheating’ or acting against the spirit of the game? What other behaviors have I not included that you would call out as questionable?[/QUOTE]

Added comments in salmon. Separately I often think extreme ATE is bad but I have a hard time drawing where the specific line is wrt my life philosophy. So I generally default to the thinking that ff its momentary (like 1-2 not-wall-post max) and doesn't discuss/suggest breaking rules I'll brush it off but if someone seems stuck in it then that's bad for the game in general even if faked.

[QUOTE=powerofdeath;1017778]Was this a reference to the S-FM I recently hosted? I had so many complaints from both Town and Mafia side that they felt the game was unbalanced against their favors. Town thought they were in a huge disadvantage, and Mafia thought they were in a huge disadvantage. Despite being a balanced game, the mafia was very discouraged to play, ended up missing deadlines, and surrendered to town before game was actually over. It was a little hard to watch on my side. I wonder how the game would be played differently if mafia had different attitude and approach. I clearly remember both side arguing the game was not favored on their side and called bullshit to the other side after the game ended.[/QUOTE]

Went back to skim its end to refresh my memory. Honestly I think its more that we got a group of players who just didn't like the setup rather than something going wrong. I mean, the ghost went horribly wrong but it felt like the complaints were a lot more opinionated rather than based on something mechanical and I felt there wasn't a cohesive theme (such as, hypothetically, player agency) between all of the complaints.

You can make a great game but at some point there will be people who genuinely dislike it.

THAT SAID though, I've noticed these sort of situations tend to pop up when players don't know the whole setup and/or don't trust the host to run a balanced setup. In the past when I did a whole bunch of effort into "proper" compensation that one game, the complaints started showing up as soon as people didn't really know what I did. Inevitably I got a very similar situation where people thought what I did was either extremely pro-town or pro-mafia even after the game ended. It could just be a matter of secrecy reducing the ability of people to self-select-out, when they have differing views, for example.

Originally Posted by Helz

Where would you guys land on the subject and what other issues do you feel like cross that boundary? I could probably rattle off quite a few other concepts I struggled with this line but at the end of the day I even question where community management should land on the issue. Should we focus on individuals creating a good experience for themselves or should we focus on a larger amount of people having a good experience? Basic function of hedonism vs utilitarianism there but as an approach for moderators and community managers its an interesting concept..

My personal life philosophy, which I tend to apply to a lot of things nowadays internally, is to live as meaningfully as I can. Without diving into it, its basically a principle that sometimes has forever-shifting objectives (sidenote: this is also its biggest flaw -- something that is contrary/contrarian has meaning and this can easily be extended is a very meta way) but in practice for me has often followed thoughts that I think people would say are aligned with utilitarianism but isn't married to it.

Originally Posted by Helz

For giggles; other questionable strats:

Crunching other game history data to identify idiosyncratic patterns in a current game Never really felt there was any ethical "wrongness" with it.
Breaking down sociometric patterns to identify interaction patterns in a current game Same as above.
Eliciting emotions to draw reads grey area -- what emotions to elicit and how are they elicited? The "what" could be okay but not the "how" and vice versa and etc.
Leveraging empathy in oog claims (like your grandma is sick or w/e) for in game reasons Don't think its questionable unless you're talking about situations where you're not safe IRL.
Pushing false reads based on unverifiable info (like meta reads) to push a view you can’t justify Fair game in like 99% of cases I see of this. I can imagine a 1% where its not okay but I don't think I'll ever see it more than once in my career.
Going ad hominem / attacking a players credibility in order to hinder them from pushing their reads Fair game so long as its not a personal attack (i.e. saying they're a bad player in general). Might be more acceptable if you attack via amplifying someone else's creditability instead or do a comparative.
Misrepresenting a hosts rules / statements to shift how players will play Not okay imo but hard to prove someone intentionally doing that

Off the top of my head those are some other concepts I would question if they should be acceptable. Kinda draws back to sociology where there are laws, norms, and taboos. What’s is ‘cheating’ or acting against the spirit of the game? What other behaviors have I not included that you would call out as questionable?

Added comments in salmon. Separately I often think extreme ATE is bad but I have a hard time drawing where the specific line is wrt my life philosophy. So I generally default to the thinking that ff its momentary (like 1-2 not-wall-post max) and doesn't discuss/suggest breaking rules I'll brush it off but if someone seems stuck in it then that's bad for the game in general even if faked.

Originally Posted by powerofdeath

Was this a reference to the S-FM I recently hosted? I had so many complaints from both Town and Mafia side that they felt the game was unbalanced against their favors. Town thought they were in a huge disadvantage, and Mafia thought they were in a huge disadvantage. Despite being a balanced game, the mafia was very discouraged to play, ended up missing deadlines, and surrendered to town before game was actually over. It was a little hard to watch on my side. I wonder how the game would be played differently if mafia had different attitude and approach. I clearly remember both side arguing the game was not favored on their side and called bullshit to the other side after the game ended.

Went back to skim its end to refresh my memory. Honestly I think its more that we got a group of players who just didn't like the setup rather than something going wrong. I mean, the ghost went horribly wrong but it felt like the complaints were a lot more opinionated rather than based on something mechanical and I felt there wasn't a cohesive theme (such as, hypothetically, player agency) between all of the complaints.

You can make a great game but at some point there will be people who genuinely dislike it.

THAT SAID though, I've noticed these sort of situations tend to pop up when players don't know the whole setup and/or don't trust the host to run a balanced setup. In the past when I did a whole bunch of effort into "proper" compensation that one game, the complaints started showing up as soon as people didn't really know what I did. Inevitably I got a very similar situation where people thought what I did was either extremely pro-town or pro-mafia even after the game ended. It could just be a matter of secrecy reducing the ability of people to self-select-out, when they have differing views, for example.

In essence, this is basically a setup that you can only run if either we (the reviewer) know what roles are behind the curtain or you have enough trust by us that we believe you'll make a good-faith attempt at running a decently-balanced setup.

On that note, I will approve this setup. If you're looking to have me review the hidden content (generally two sets of eyes will detect more issues than one) feel free to reach out to me in whatever private means. Site DMs, discord DMs, etc.

In essence, this is basically a setup that you can only run if either we (the reviewer) know what roles are behind the curtain or you have enough trust by us that we believe you'll make a good-faith attempt at running a decently-balanced setup.

On that note, I will approve this setup. If you're looking to have me review the hidden content (generally two sets of eyes will detect more issues than one) feel free to reach out to me in whatever private means. Site DMs, discord DMs, etc.

Sorry for the delay in getting to this.

[QUOTE=Zedus;1017779]
[LIST]
[*]Predatory. Smells blood. As an action, can check to see if a chosen player is wounded.
[*]Herbivorous. Accustomed to surviving in dangerous conditions. If a herbivore survives one night with a wound received before this nigth, the wound is healed at the beginning of the next day.
[*]Big. Too large a target for small ones. If attacked by a small animal, takes one wound rather than death.
[*]Small. Too fast a target for large ones. If attacked by a large animal, takes one wound rather than death.
[/LIST]
[/QUOTE]

I can see an argument for this mechanic if the rebels (which I will refer to as "wolves") have extra killpower, but they are not guaranteed to have a vigilante power role. If they do not have extra killpower (beyond hyena and regular night attack) then its plausible their night actions will be completely unsuccessful due to this + the fact that towns would rarely have a reason to out that they are small/big. With that in mind, I can imagine a preety frustrating game for the wolves. The Hyena ability could help, but its more-so the fact that wolf actions could effectively fail for no reason other than a player being a certain animal type. Sure, they might be wounded, but that just means they now have to spend 2 kp or more just to kill a civilian or power role.

It's not like in a vanilla game where there is the town, mafia, and a doctor. In that case there is a level of skill to it. If the night kill gets blocked, then the doctor played well and the mafia got outplayed. In this game where there's just animals small or large, you might lose the night kill just to bad luck rather than skill (because again, there is no reason for town to share what animal they are).

Unfortunately with a game of this size I don't really see a way of making this interesting while reliably working/fun at the same time. If this were a mash then it could be implemented in, for example, ITAs. Outside of KRC we basically do not have any mashes on this site, which means any removal or addition of kill-power can be very impactful. Therefore it just adds a whole lot of swing ("swing" meaning a game that looks like a wolf win could easily go to wolf loss or the opposite) to the game and most of it is town-sided and likely to upset the wolves.

IF you really want to keep it in, here are some ideas I think off the top of my head:
1. Either give the mafia 2 standard night attacks or one single night attack that ignores the wound mechanic.
2. Make wounds act like a poison. Instead of dying instantly, they die after day ends or something like that.
3. ???? something else idk, if you go with any of these I will probably be checking them again and thinking them through

In any case, however, I strongly suggest making the herbivore ability do something different, and maaayyyybbbeeee the predator one too. The herbivore ability is effectively a self-doc and might as well be considered a power role. It could be unbalanced with very limited wolf counter-play, plain and simple. The predator ability could be okay but if most of the town ends up being predators then that likely would make WIFOM too risky -- if a wolf fake-claims seeing a wound on player B but Predator #4 checked Player B at the same time then you have a Thunderdome at a minimum. Which is generally bad for the wolves.

[QUOTE=Zedus;1017779][B][COLOR="#00FF00"]Green Faction Animal Abilities:[/COLOR][/B]
[B]The Lion [/B]has all the properties of a predator and a big, and has an additional ability: It can reveal itself at any time (the host's message confirms this), but after this action it cannot be the target of any actions other than attacks. This ability applies automatically if the Lion is hammered during the day: in this case it is not the Lion who is executed, but the one he voted for, even if that vote is the only one.

Also, some animals of the green faction become power roles and randomly gain one of the following abilities:

1. Healing (like vanilla Doctor). Herbivores only. Visits one animal at night. If it is attacked, the attack is prevented. If it is not attacked but has a wound, the wound will be healed. If it is not attacked and has no wound, nothing happens. The target of the ability will be notified if it is healed or protected. The healer himself receives no feedback.

2. Territory Guard (like vanilla Veteran). Predator Only. Automatically attacks all of its visitors at night. This ability does not cancel the visitors' action. Can only be used twice per game.

[snip]

5. Block (like vanilla Escort). Big only. Visits one animal and blocks the exit from its dwelling, blocking all of its night actions. The target of the ability will be notified even if no action was taken. [/QUOTE]

Lion ability is basically a vengeful (i.e. jester from arcade) but you don't actually die in using it. It could work, but in the context of the whole setup its not good for balance currently. It could be fine after changes to other parts of the setup though. We will see.

Doctor is made a lot more powerful with the wound mechanic, and makes the whole idea of small/big even more town-sided if a doctor exists. Also informing a target if they were attacked or healed, while quite accurate in the real world, generally makes for terrible balance in the FM world because it gives town A LOT of valuable & powerful information. Very limited wolf counter-play with the feedback, even more so with the wound mechanic.

Vanilla veteran is not something that exists in FM for two good reasons. One, roles entirely dependent on being visited (i.e. other people's choices) are very hard to balance -- it doesn't matter what effect they have. Two, you don't make killpower vary that wildly. I would just completely remove it. I do have a few ideas on how a veteran-like role could be balanced and not swingy, but it means making a very complex role and I don't think that's called for in a setup that seems inspired by vanilla roles from the arcade.

Escort giving information is bad for the same reasons as doc giving information.

[QUOTE=Zedus;1017779]In total, the green faction gains as many power roles, as the number of accomplices the Hyena has. [COLOR="#FFA500"]For example, in 13 ppl setup we have 2 Hyena's accomplices, so town gets two power roles[/COLOR].
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Zedus;1017779][B][COLOR="#FF0000"]Red faction abilities:[/COLOR][/B]
Red faction share the day and night chat, as usual mafia faction.

There is always at least one carnivore, herbivore, small animal, and big animal among the Rebellion. Thus, there are at least two rebels(e.g., Hyena and Elephant). The exact number of rebels depends on the total number of players, for 13 ppl setup we have 3.

The Red faction may send one of the rebels (including the Hyena itself) to attack any of the animals. This action is a normal attack and is handled according to the standard rules (i.e., may kill, wound, or be prevented).

Once per game, a Hyena may use the "hyena pack" ability at the Hyena's discretion. The chosen animal will be attacked by the pack and torn apart. This ability cannot be blocked or prevented, and no member of the red faction is considered a visitor when this ability is applied. The host's death message will describe an attack by a pack of hyenas, meaning all players will be notified that this ability has been used. If Hyena is killed, the pack will come to avenge it, and this ability will be applied automatically the next night, the rebels must name its target.

[COLOR="#FFA500"]Before the game begins, one randomly selected member of the red faction, excluding the hyena, may choose one of the available abilities from the list appropriate for his animal and use it to benefit the Rebellion[/COLOR].[/QUOTE]

In general, town should have the same amount of power-roles as the wolves. Although if you're keeping the wound mechanic, it might be wise to reduce the town power roles by at least 1 (i.e. if wolves have three power roles, town should have 2) to account for the town-siding nature of the big/small wound mechanic. Especially if it remains largely unchanged.





This is just a few thoughts I have had. This setup will likely need more work in the future before it becomes balanced and fun. If none of my changes are implemented and (as MM notes) the neutral survivor is left in there I can see this being a very town-sided game. Wolves wining this will be very difficult and it will be quite frustrating for them.

Sorry for the delay in getting to this.

Originally Posted by Zedus

• Predatory. Smells blood. As an action, can check to see if a chosen player is wounded.
• Herbivorous. Accustomed to surviving in dangerous conditions. If a herbivore survives one night with a wound received before this nigth, the wound is healed at the beginning of the next day.
• Big. Too large a target for small ones. If attacked by a small animal, takes one wound rather than death.
• Small. Too fast a target for large ones. If attacked by a large animal, takes one wound rather than death.

I can see an argument for this mechanic if the rebels (which I will refer to as "wolves") have extra killpower, but they are not guaranteed to have a vigilante power role. If they do not have extra killpower (beyond hyena and regular night attack) then its plausible their night actions will be completely unsuccessful due to this + the fact that towns would rarely have a reason to out that they are small/big. With that in mind, I can imagine a preety frustrating game for the wolves. The Hyena ability could help, but its more-so the fact that wolf actions could effectively fail for no reason other than a player being a certain animal type. Sure, they might be wounded, but that just means they now have to spend 2 kp or more just to kill a civilian or power role.

It's not like in a vanilla game where there is the town, mafia, and a doctor. In that case there is a level of skill to it. If the night kill gets blocked, then the doctor played well and the mafia got outplayed. In this game where there's just animals small or large, you might lose the night kill just to bad luck rather than skill (because again, there is no reason for town to share what animal they are).

Unfortunately with a game of this size I don't really see a way of making this interesting while reliably working/fun at the same time. If this were a mash then it could be implemented in, for example, ITAs. Outside of KRC we basically do not have any mashes on this site, which means any removal or addition of kill-power can be very impactful. Therefore it just adds a whole lot of swing ("swing" meaning a game that looks like a wolf win could easily go to wolf loss or the opposite) to the game and most of it is town-sided and likely to upset the wolves.

IF you really want to keep it in, here are some ideas I think off the top of my head:
1. Either give the mafia 2 standard night attacks or one single night attack that ignores the wound mechanic.
2. Make wounds act like a poison. Instead of dying instantly, they die after day ends or something like that.
3. ???? something else idk, if you go with any of these I will probably be checking them again and thinking them through

In any case, however, I strongly suggest making the herbivore ability do something different, and maaayyyybbbeeee the predator one too. The herbivore ability is effectively a self-doc and might as well be considered a power role. It could be unbalanced with very limited wolf counter-play, plain and simple. The predator ability could be okay but if most of the town ends up being predators then that likely would make WIFOM too risky -- if a wolf fake-claims seeing a wound on player B but Predator #4 checked Player B at the same time then you have a Thunderdome at a minimum. Which is generally bad for the wolves.

Originally Posted by Zedus

Green Faction Animal Abilities:
The Lion has all the properties of a predator and a big, and has an additional ability: It can reveal itself at any time (the host's message confirms this), but after this action it cannot be the target of any actions other than attacks. This ability applies automatically if the Lion is hammered during the day: in this case it is not the Lion who is executed, but the one he voted for, even if that vote is the only one.

Also, some animals of the green faction become power roles and randomly gain one of the following abilities:

1. Healing (like vanilla Doctor). Herbivores only. Visits one animal at night. If it is attacked, the attack is prevented. If it is not attacked but has a wound, the wound will be healed. If it is not attacked and has no wound, nothing happens. The target of the ability will be notified if it is healed or protected. The healer himself receives no feedback.

2. Territory Guard (like vanilla Veteran). Predator Only. Automatically attacks all of its visitors at night. This ability does not cancel the visitors' action. Can only be used twice per game.

[snip]

5. Block (like vanilla Escort). Big only. Visits one animal and blocks the exit from its dwelling, blocking all of its night actions. The target of the ability will be notified even if no action was taken.

Lion ability is basically a vengeful (i.e. jester from arcade) but you don't actually die in using it. It could work, but in the context of the whole setup its not good for balance currently. It could be fine after changes to other parts of the setup though. We will see.

Doctor is made a lot more powerful with the wound mechanic, and makes the whole idea of small/big even more town-sided if a doctor exists. Also informing a target if they were attacked or healed, while quite accurate in the real world, generally makes for terrible balance in the FM world because it gives town A LOT of valuable & powerful information. Very limited wolf counter-play with the feedback, even more so with the wound mechanic.

Vanilla veteran is not something that exists in FM for two good reasons. One, roles entirely dependent on being visited (i.e. other people's choices) are very hard to balance -- it doesn't matter what effect they have. Two, you don't make killpower vary that wildly. I would just completely remove it. I do have a few ideas on how a veteran-like role could be balanced and not swingy, but it means making a very complex role and I don't think that's called for in a setup that seems inspired by vanilla roles from the arcade.

Escort giving information is bad for the same reasons as doc giving information.

Originally Posted by Zedus

In total, the green faction gains as many power roles, as the number of accomplices the Hyena has. For example, in 13 ppl setup we have 2 Hyena's accomplices, so town gets two power roles.

Originally Posted by Zedus

Red faction abilities:
Red faction share the day and night chat, as usual mafia faction.

There is always at least one carnivore, herbivore, small animal, and big animal among the Rebellion. Thus, there are at least two rebels(e.g., Hyena and Elephant). The exact number of rebels depends on the total number of players, for 13 ppl setup we have 3.

The Red faction may send one of the rebels (including the Hyena itself) to attack any of the animals. This action is a normal attack and is handled according to the standard rules (i.e., may kill, wound, or be prevented).

Once per game, a Hyena may use the "hyena pack" ability at the Hyena's discretion. The chosen animal will be attacked by the pack and torn apart. This ability cannot be blocked or prevented, and no member of the red faction is considered a visitor when this ability is applied. The host's death message will describe an attack by a pack of hyenas, meaning all players will be notified that this ability has been used. If Hyena is killed, the pack will come to avenge it, and this ability will be applied automatically the next night, the rebels must name its target.

Before the game begins, one randomly selected member of the red faction, excluding the hyena, may choose one of the available abilities from the list appropriate for his animal and use it to benefit the Rebellion.

In general, town should have the same amount of power-roles as the wolves. Although if you're keeping the wound mechanic, it might be wise to reduce the town power roles by at least 1 (i.e. if wolves have three power roles, town should have 2) to account for the town-siding nature of the big/small wound mechanic. Especially if it remains largely unchanged.





This is just a few thoughts I have had. This setup will likely need more work in the future before it becomes balanced and fun. If none of my changes are implemented and (as MM notes) the neutral survivor is left in there I can see this being a very town-sided game. Wolves wining this will be very difficult and it will be quite frustrating for them.

Just noting I do plan to weigh in on this conversation, as I had a similar experience as PoD's once as a host. Caveat though that was more-so due to me conducting compensation for rule breaks during that game (and ever since then have been very reluctant to do compensation). But this seems like it needs contemplation and focus by me and I don't really have spare time for that in the immediate future, but when I do this seems like an interesting conversation.

Just noting I do plan to weigh in on this conversation, as I had a similar experience as PoD's once as a host. Caveat though that was more-so due to me conducting compensation for rule breaks during that game (and ever since then have been very reluctant to do compensation). But this seems like it needs contemplation and focus by me and I don't really have spare time for that in the immediate future, but when I do this seems like an interesting conversation.

Acknowledged. I might not be able to take a look this weekend, but you can likely expect a review of you WIP setup by me before the weekend after that.

Sidenote: Welcome back! Hope you're doing well.

Acknowledged. I might not be able to take a look this weekend, but you can likely expect a review of you WIP setup by me before the weekend after that.

Sidenote: Welcome back! Hope you're doing well.

[QUOTE=Arrow;996694]We only have a very limited bank for that ID (1000 points), so you might want to go on the discord and see if anyone remembers you. :([/QUOTE]

I know Innovation (Music) from one FM game they tried, and have a general impression of who they are, so I'm going to lean in a bit on this one though I have never played with them in arcade personally.

Of note is that they've made a similar point restore request [URL="https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/50816-Music-1-S2-1-2311149?p=973746&viewfull=1#post973746"]back in 2023[/URL].

I would say the 20k is probably exaggerated a mild bit due to:
[list]
[*]The previously requested amount was 10k-20k, and later in the thread mentions point betting.
[*]In the time since the previous request, the "arcade lobby status" has 247 results of them (Music#674)
[*]Assuming the previous request wasn't fulfilled (or that they didn't recover a bank) getting 20k with just 247 games is relatively absurd based on some of the recent point restores I've looked at -- most of them seemed lower in the 20-30s though one was as high as 66 points per game played.
[/list]
I don't think the exaggeration is all that intentional though, based on my impressions of them and the fact that they didn't really get confrontational with the previous point restore request (which a deceptive/manipulative requester might do). Additionally, prior to the previous request, they had around 200 more games or lobbies recorded. If I had to guess, maybe they had points in the lower 10k range? Variability with this estimate could be wild though if they have a habit of doing bets or if they somehow got a recovery of previously-lost points. I don't doubt that they've lost points, possibly even twice, but I'm not so sure as to the exact amount they've lost due to circumstances such as loss of bank file. I vouch on this and hope that, pending input from players who have actually played with Music in-game, maybe we can achieve some sort of compensation for them even if it is not the actual amount that was lost.

Originally Posted by Arrow

We only have a very limited bank for that ID (1000 points), so you might want to go on the discord and see if anyone remembers you.

I know Innovation (Music) from one FM game they tried, and have a general impression of who they are, so I'm going to lean in a bit on this one though I have never played with them in arcade personally.

Of note is that they've made a similar point restore request back in 2023.

I would say the 20k is probably exaggerated a mild bit due to:

• The previously requested amount was 10k-20k, and later in the thread mentions point betting.
• In the time since the previous request, the "arcade lobby status" has 247 results of them (Music#674)
• Assuming the previous request wasn't fulfilled (or that they didn't recover a bank) getting 20k with just 247 games is relatively absurd based on some of the recent point restores I've looked at -- most of them seemed lower in the 20-30s though one was as high as 66 points per game played.

I don't think the exaggeration is all that intentional though, based on my impressions of them and the fact that they didn't really get confrontational with the previous point restore request (which a deceptive/manipulative requester might do). Additionally, prior to the previous request, they had around 200 more games or lobbies recorded. If I had to guess, maybe they had points in the lower 10k range? Variability with this estimate could be wild though if they have a habit of doing bets or if they somehow got a recovery of previously-lost points. I don't doubt that they've lost points, possibly even twice, but I'm not so sure as to the exact amount they've lost due to circumstances such as loss of bank file. I vouch on this and hope that, pending input from players who have actually played with Music in-game, maybe we can achieve some sort of compensation for them even if it is not the actual amount that was lost.

In order to avoid conflict with [URL="https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/51348-KRC-Sc2Mafia-13th-Anniversary-Game-(S-FM-357)"]KRC[/URL], and consideration of this game's maximum possible length, this signup is being postponed until KRC has concluded.

For excessive clarity's sake, when signups for this game resume it will be assumed that none of you will remain as signs (or reserves) unless you explicitly sign again when signups resume.

[MENTION=29377]Marshmallow Marshall[/MENTION]
[MENTION=3897]powerofdeath[/MENTION]
[MENTION=36817]ikarusdk[/MENTION]
[MENTION=45607]JeremiahSablan[/MENTION]
[MENTION=5232]Numbertwo[/MENTION]
[MENTION=43484]Varcron[/MENTION]
[MENTION=30852]Renegade[/MENTION]

[MENTION=45982]oliverz144[/MENTION]

In order to avoid conflict with KRC, and consideration of this game's maximum possible length, this signup is being postponed until KRC has concluded.

For excessive clarity's sake, when signups for this game resume it will be assumed that none of you will remain as signs (or reserves) unless you explicitly sign again when signups resume.

@Marshmallow Marshall
@powerofdeath
@ikarusdk
@JeremiahSablan
@Numbertwo
@Varcron
@Renegade

@oliverz144

[MENTION=45982]oliverz144[/MENTION] [MENTION=3897]powerofdeath[/MENTION] [MENTION=46604]Luka[/MENTION] [MENTION=29377]Marshmallow Marshall[/MENTION] [MENTION=45327]bakermir[/MENTION] (reserve)

Hey all, not many people are signing up for this and while I normally would've switched to some other game to see if it would garner more interest, truth is I can't really afford to be running anything during the last week of January (the start of a busy semester) -- which is what its looking like to be even if I got the game filled. Downsizing is not feasible without obliterating the setup's unique characteristics.

So I'll be looking for another host in a meantime. This signups is discontinued. I have one person noted as possibly hosting in January, but otherwise I don't have anyone else on my list and more would be welcome.

@oliverz144 @powerofdeath @Luka @Marshmallow Marshall @bakermir (reserve)

Hey all, not many people are signing up for this and while I normally would've switched to some other game to see if it would garner more interest, truth is I can't really afford to be running anything during the last week of January (the start of a busy semester) -- which is what its looking like to be even if I got the game filled. Downsizing is not feasible without obliterating the setup's unique characteristics.

So I'll be looking for another host in a meantime. This signups is discontinued. I have one person noted as possibly hosting in January, but otherwise I don't have anyone else on my list and more would be welcome.

[QUOTE=powerofdeath;996328]/in (only if it start after christmas)[/QUOTE]

not planning to anyways, decent chance this game fills towards very end of the month / first week of January or something like that

Originally Posted by powerofdeath

/in (only if it start after christmas)

not planning to anyways, decent chance this game fills towards very end of the month / first week of January or something like that

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;996301][CENTER][B][SIZE=5]Timelines Mafia[/SIZE][/B]
inspired by [I]Edge of Tomorrow[/I]
[/CENTER]

This is a downsized version of a 15-player setup I made on another community. It can be easily adjusted for 10 players by giving town an extra Good Timeline and the Evil Timelines a single-use extra kill ability. If for some reason there is enough demand, I can also make it the original 15 player version (which you can find via this [URL="https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?p=936243"]link[/URL] if interested).


6 [COLOR="#008000"]Good Timeline[/COLOR]
[quote]
You are a Good Timeline! You currently do not have any powers. However, if the Prime Timeline is killed or eliminated, you have a chance of obtaining their role!

You, along with the Prime Timeline, must defeat all Evil Timelines.
[/quote]

1 [COLOR="#40E0D0"]Prime Timeline[/COLOR]
[quote]
You are the Prime Timeline!

If you die your role will be immediately passed onto another Good Timeline, unless your role would exist in a F5/F3 scenario.

Your role has the following abilities, depending on the number of times your role has been passed onto a Good Timeline.

Deaths during the day do not count.

Initial abilities: Tracker which also automatically bodyguards whoever you track (if they are attacked, you are attacked instead).
One death: 1x Super-tracker without bodyguard (ignores ninja effect, charge is consumed only if you survive while using it)

You, along with the Good Timelines, must defeat all Evil Timelines.
[/quote]

2 [COLOR="#A52A2A"]Evil Timeline[/COLOR]
[quote]
You are an Evil Timeline! You have no individual powers, but your Evil Timeline faction does!

Your faction has the following abilities:
1x Ninja (make self untrackable, except for super-tracker)
2x Role-cop (does not detect who has the new Prime Timeline role if the previous one was killed the night of the check)

These factional abilities may be used alongside the factional kill, both of which are assigned to Evil Timelines. However, each Evil Timeline is limited to doing two things (both abilities and kills) at a time, unless you are the last surviving Evil Timeline. In which case, you may use everything simultaneously if you wish.

You also have a permanent chat with your allies:

You, along with your faction, must control at least half of the votes in the game or have nothing preventing that from happening.
[/quote][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]A discord hub will be used for enhanced player/host communication and discord's useful time-stamp feature. [COLOR="#FFD700"]If I don't know your discord account, I will not count your /in or /sign.[/COLOR] My discord username is the same as it is here, and we have a community discord [URL="https://discord.gg/8vz6YccZAw"]here[/URL].

Elimination is majority + plurality, except for Day 1 where it will simply be plurality.

Day 1 is extended to 72 hours, as per suggestions/discussions in our super-duper-secret FM staff chat. Otherwise phases are 48/24.

SoD/EoD of 7 pm. Put this " < t:1702598400:F > " into a discord message, remove the spaces between the < and >, then send it somewhere to get a timestamp in your timezone. That shows the correct hour of the SoD/EoD for you.

Ties decided by RNGjesus except where mafia winning the tie wins the game.

Minimum post requirement of 10 per day phase. They can be anything. Only one warning of this, then replacement. Modkill if no replacement immediately available. Prods outside of these will be at my discretion. Having less than five posts by EoD will bypass the warning and will be met with immediate replacement/modkill.
[/SIZE]

[B][size=5][COLOR="#A52A2A"]Signups were discontinued.[/COLOR][/B][/size][size=1]

[s]Signs

1. Oliverz144
2. powerofdeath
3. luka
4. Marshmallow Marshall
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.

Reserves

1. bakermir
2.
3.
...[/s][/SIZE]

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Timelines Mafia
inspired by Edge of Tomorrow

This is a downsized version of a 15-player setup I made on another community. It can be easily adjusted for 10 players by giving town an extra Good Timeline and the Evil Timelines a single-use extra kill ability. If for some reason there is enough demand, I can also make it the original 15 player version (which you can find via this link if interested).


6 Good Timeline

You are a Good Timeline! You currently do not have any powers. However, if the Prime Timeline is killed or eliminated, you have a chance of obtaining their role!

You, along with the Prime Timeline, must defeat all Evil Timelines.

1 Prime Timeline

You are the Prime Timeline!

If you die your role will be immediately passed onto another Good Timeline, unless your role would exist in a F5/F3 scenario.

Your role has the following abilities, depending on the number of times your role has been passed onto a Good Timeline.

Deaths during the day do not count.

Initial abilities: Tracker which also automatically bodyguards whoever you track (if they are attacked, you are attacked instead).
One death: 1x Super-tracker without bodyguard (ignores ninja effect, charge is consumed only if you survive while using it)

You, along with the Good Timelines, must defeat all Evil Timelines.

2 Evil Timeline

You are an Evil Timeline! You have no individual powers, but your Evil Timeline faction does!

Your faction has the following abilities:
1x Ninja (make self untrackable, except for super-tracker)
2x Role-cop (does not detect who has the new Prime Timeline role if the previous one was killed the night of the check)

These factional abilities may be used alongside the factional kill, both of which are assigned to Evil Timelines. However, each Evil Timeline is limited to doing two things (both abilities and kills) at a time, unless you are the last surviving Evil Timeline. In which case, you may use everything simultaneously if you wish.

You also have a permanent chat with your allies:

You, along with your faction, must control at least half of the votes in the game or have nothing preventing that from happening.

A discord hub will be used for enhanced player/host communication and discord's useful time-stamp feature. If I don't know your discord account, I will not count your /in or /sign. My discord username is the same as it is here, and we have a community discord here.

Elimination is majority + plurality, except for Day 1 where it will simply be plurality.

Day 1 is extended to 72 hours, as per suggestions/discussions in our super-duper-secret FM staff chat. Otherwise phases are 48/24.

SoD/EoD of 7 pm. Put this " < t:1702598400:F > " into a discord message, remove the spaces between the < and >, then send it somewhere to get a timestamp in your timezone. That shows the correct hour of the SoD/EoD for you.

Ties decided by RNGjesus except where mafia winning the tie wins the game.

Minimum post requirement of 10 per day phase. They can be anything. Only one warning of this, then replacement. Modkill if no replacement immediately available. Prods outside of these will be at my discretion. Having less than five posts by EoD will bypass the warning and will be met with immediate replacement/modkill.


Signups were discontinued.

Signs

1. Oliverz144
2. powerofdeath
3. luka
4. Marshmallow Marshall
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.

Reserves

1. bakermir
2.
3.
...

Exercising Admin Ab00se to put this into approved myself.

Exercising Admin Ab00se to put this into approved myself.

[CENTER][B][SIZE=5]Timelines Mafia[/SIZE][/B]
inspired by [I]Edge of Tomorrow[/I]
[/CENTER]

This is a downsized version of a 15-player setup I made on another community. It can be easily adjusted for 10 players by giving town an extra Good Timeline and the Evil Timelines a single-use extra kill ability. If for some reason there is enough demand, I can also make it the original 15 player version (which you can find via this [URL="https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?p=936243"]link[/URL] if interested).


6 [COLOR="#008000"]Good Timeline[/COLOR]
[quote]
You are a Good Timeline! You currently do not have any powers. However, if the Prime Timeline is killed or eliminated, you have a chance of obtaining their role!

You, along with the Prime Timeline, must defeat all Evil Timelines.
[/quote]

1 [COLOR="#40E0D0"]Prime Timeline[/COLOR]
[quote]
You are the Prime Timeline!

If you die your role will be immediately passed onto another Good Timeline, unless your role would exist in a F5/F3 scenario.

Your role has the following abilities, depending on the number of times your role has been passed onto a Good Timeline.

Deaths during the day do not count.

Initial abilities: Tracker which also automatically bodyguards whoever you track (if they are attacked, you are attacked instead).
One death: 1x Super-tracker without bodyguard (ignores ninja effect, charge is consumed only if you survive while using it)

You, along with the Good Timelines, must defeat all Evil Timelines.
[/quote]

2 [COLOR="#A52A2A"]Evil Timeline[/COLOR]
[quote]
You are an Evil Timeline! You have no individual powers, but your Evil Timeline faction does!

Your faction has the following abilities:
1x Ninja (make self untrackable, except for super-tracker)
2x Role-cop (does not detect who has the new Prime Timeline role if the previous one was killed the night of the check)

These factional abilities may be used alongside the factional kill, both of which are assigned to Evil Timelines. However, each Evil Timeline is limited to doing two things (both abilities and kills) at a time, unless you are the last surviving Evil Timeline. In which case, you may use everything simultaneously if you wish.

You also have a permanent chat with your allies:

You, along with your faction, must control at least half of the votes in the game or have nothing preventing that from happening.
[/quote]


Other details such as phase length and host's personal adjustments to be finalized at signups.

Timelines Mafia
inspired by Edge of Tomorrow

This is a downsized version of a 15-player setup I made on another community. It can be easily adjusted for 10 players by giving town an extra Good Timeline and the Evil Timelines a single-use extra kill ability. If for some reason there is enough demand, I can also make it the original 15 player version (which you can find via this link if interested).


6 Good Timeline

You are a Good Timeline! You currently do not have any powers. However, if the Prime Timeline is killed or eliminated, you have a chance of obtaining their role!

You, along with the Prime Timeline, must defeat all Evil Timelines.

1 Prime Timeline

You are the Prime Timeline!

If you die your role will be immediately passed onto another Good Timeline, unless your role would exist in a F5/F3 scenario.

Your role has the following abilities, depending on the number of times your role has been passed onto a Good Timeline.

Deaths during the day do not count.

Initial abilities: Tracker which also automatically bodyguards whoever you track (if they are attacked, you are attacked instead).
One death: 1x Super-tracker without bodyguard (ignores ninja effect, charge is consumed only if you survive while using it)

You, along with the Good Timelines, must defeat all Evil Timelines.

2 Evil Timeline

You are an Evil Timeline! You have no individual powers, but your Evil Timeline faction does!

Your faction has the following abilities:
1x Ninja (make self untrackable, except for super-tracker)
2x Role-cop (does not detect who has the new Prime Timeline role if the previous one was killed the night of the check)

These factional abilities may be used alongside the factional kill, both of which are assigned to Evil Timelines. However, each Evil Timeline is limited to doing two things (both abilities and kills) at a time, unless you are the last surviving Evil Timeline. In which case, you may use everything simultaneously if you wish.

You also have a permanent chat with your allies:

You, along with your faction, must control at least half of the votes in the game or have nothing preventing that from happening.

Other details such as phase length and host's personal adjustments to be finalized at signups.

Might as well re-post from the discord into here:

Hey all! We currently don't have any approved games in the queue, so if anybody was thinking of hosting anything let me know. Otherwise, in about a week or two I'll end up making my own signups for something. Not sure what it'll be, so if you have any specific desires for a certain kind of game let me know, but I will have something figured out by then.

Might as well re-post from the discord into here:

Hey all! We currently don't have any approved games in the queue, so if anybody was thinking of hosting anything let me know. Otherwise, in about a week or two I'll end up making my own signups for something. Not sure what it'll be, so if you have any specific desires for a certain kind of game let me know, but I will have something figured out by then.

[QUOTE=Frinckles;994566]damnit /reserve[/QUOTE]

:judgement:

[SIZE=1]Been wanting to say that when game ended lol.[/SIZE]

Originally Posted by Frinckles

damnit /reserve

Been wanting to say that when game ended lol.

Honestly maybe it wouldn't be so bad that, if we make another "nonstandard roles" setup, that in the first run of it we make it clear that its a trial run or whatever. Its much easier to find mistakes and potential issues when running a game than when its on the whiteboard and hasn't been run yet. Having people be mindful of it not being fully tested might make for a better experience.

Just a thought I'm throwing out there.

Honestly maybe it wouldn't be so bad that, if we make another "nonstandard roles" setup, that in the first run of it we make it clear that its a trial run or whatever. Its much easier to find mistakes and potential issues when running a game than when its on the whiteboard and hasn't been run yet. Having people be mindful of it not being fully tested might make for a better experience.

Just a thought I'm throwing out there.

[MENTION=45982]oliverz144[/MENTION]

idk if you're planning to stick around but if I happen to be running a setup again in the future you should be free to join it

I can't even remember how long its been the way where I wasn't having you in my games, but its been long enough and you seemed to be genuinely engaged playing this and I really appreciate that

@oliverz144

idk if you're planning to stick around but if I happen to be running a setup again in the future you should be free to join it

I can't even remember how long its been the way where I wasn't having you in my games, but its been long enough and you seemed to be genuinely engaged playing this and I really appreciate that

[QUOTE=powerofdeath;996202]Hindsight is 20/20. A lot of roles working in a way I didnt expect for them to work that way this game. Not just ghost.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. Also to be clear I'm not blaming just you, part of the blame lies on myself as well. I had a fair hand in scrutinizing each of the roles (in setup review) and I feel like I should've spotted that about the ghost thing. But, as you say, hindsight is 20/20.

Originally Posted by powerofdeath

Hindsight is 20/20. A lot of roles working in a way I didnt expect for them to work that way this game. Not just ghost.

Yeah. Also to be clear I'm not blaming just you, part of the blame lies on myself as well. I had a fair hand in scrutinizing each of the roles (in setup review) and I feel like I should've spotted that about the ghost thing. But, as you say, hindsight is 20/20.

I do think that Ghost is perhaps not a fun role to play against as neutral though. That probably should've been considered for longer. You can't shut down a whole mafia or town team as ghost. But you can shut down a whole neutral faction which just seems unfair.

I do think that Ghost is perhaps not a fun role to play against as neutral though. That probably should've been considered for longer. You can't shut down a whole mafia or town team as ghost. But you can shut down a whole neutral faction which just seems unfair.

Yeah, the night actions really just decided the game for the most part. Not the balancing/role distribution IMO.

Very interesting to know that 4 cleanings were prevented though LOL. Poor mafia.

Yeah, the night actions really just decided the game for the most part. Not the balancing/role distribution IMO.

Very interesting to know that 4 cleanings were prevented though LOL. Poor mafia.

[vote]scumbot5679[/vote]

whatever happens I'm p sure we'll all figure it out

-vote scumbot5679

whatever happens I'm p sure we'll all figure it out

Like several things would need to mess up for us to not win so

I kinda don't care what we end up doing

Like several things would need to mess up for us to not win so

I kinda don't care what we end up doing

It's preety difficult to lose this. Thinking of a worse-case scenario, assuming nothing special like vengeful:


t
t
t
t
t
t

m
m

n

Votes off town. Nks, with ghost in control and mafia killing, at most 2 towns and 1 mafia

t
t
t

m

n

At this point we should know who the mafia is, and if not, we vote off the town in a 1v1. Ghost is used then to either not-target or self-target and the last mafia.

After that, we have 2 town left and vote off Mizery. So really if we assume all of that then practical way we can only lose is if Varcron misplays the Evil Teacher control or if we all mess up and Evil Vengeful exists.

It's preety difficult to lose this. Thinking of a worse-case scenario, assuming nothing special like vengeful:


t
t
t
t
t
t

m
m

n

Votes off town. Nks, with ghost in control and mafia killing, at most 2 towns and 1 mafia

t
t
t

m

n

At this point we should know who the mafia is, and if not, we vote off the town in a 1v1. Ghost is used then to either not-target or self-target and the last mafia.

After that, we have 2 town left and vote off Mizery. So really if we assume all of that then practical way we can only lose is if Varcron misplays the Evil Teacher control or if we all mess up and Evil Vengeful exists.

[QUOTE=Helz;996108]I think our ghost will follow my lead.[/QUOTE]

frankly

the ghost wants Mizery to lose so

if any plan gets town to auto-win, and town goes with plan #1 via voting out X, Varcron probably follows that plan

Originally Posted by Helz

I think our ghost will follow my lead.

frankly

the ghost wants Mizery to lose so

if any plan gets town to auto-win, and town goes with plan #1 via voting out X, Varcron probably follows that plan

I'm preety confident in this plan. I'll type up a better formatted one probably sometime tomorrow IRL.

I'm preety confident in this plan. I'll type up a better formatted one probably sometime tomorrow IRL.

er
[MENTION=46573]scumbot5679[/MENTION]

Basically please send your cat to one of Martin/DM. If Oli is mafia vengeful he may try to kill Helz in which case that leaves you open to do a check.

er
@scumbot5679

Basically please send your cat to one of Martin/DM. If Oli is mafia vengeful he may try to kill Helz in which case that leaves you open to do a check.

Just realized there is ofc one more way to frick the plan, which is mafia vengeful killing Helz.

But I don't think that breaks the plan. In the end, that allows Scumbot to do a check with his cat since he wasn't killed by mafia Vengeful. Regardless of Scumbot being town or mafia, it'll cause the resulting PoE to shrink by one so that there's a 1v1 thunderdome by next day phase.

[B]See the logic below[/B]:

Because then Luka and I just need to do this:

Commit to protecting helz, and if Oli murders Helz, we commit to protecting Huo Huo. If mafia doesn't NK Mizery, we get full alignment checks on Me/MM/Luka and leaves game at Oli/DM and Oli/Scumbot as possible teams.

If mafia does NK Mizery, then that opens things up to

Martin/Oli
DM/Oli
Scumbot/Oli

However, since we're assuming a mafia vengeful DOES NOT kill [MENTION=28841]Scum[/MENTION]bot5678 , we can just send the cat to one of these people and force a check via cat regardless.

Just realized there is ofc one more way to frick the plan, which is mafia vengeful killing Helz.

But I don't think that breaks the plan. In the end, that allows Scumbot to do a check with his cat since he wasn't killed by mafia Vengeful. Regardless of Scumbot being town or mafia, it'll cause the resulting PoE to shrink by one so that there's a 1v1 thunderdome by next day phase.

See the logic below:

Because then Luka and I just need to do this:

Commit to protecting helz, and if Oli murders Helz, we commit to protecting Huo Huo. If mafia doesn't NK Mizery, we get full alignment checks on Me/MM/Luka and leaves game at Oli/DM and Oli/Scumbot as possible teams.

If mafia does NK Mizery, then that opens things up to

Martin/Oli
DM/Oli
Scumbot/Oli

However, since we're assuming a mafia vengeful DOES NOT kill @Scum bot5678 , we can just send the cat to one of these people and force a check via cat regardless.

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;996092]Okay so I think I got this down into one post.

[QUOTE=Dark Magician;996048]We can agree it’s never Luka/Martin right?
Due to the lack of kills.

So in such case if Oliver and Scumbot aren’t hits it’s just MM/Tau?[/QUOTE]

this makes sense actually, as otherwise it'd be very likely one of Martin/Luka/Helz/Huo would've died

therefore one of us must be town, or both, we just don't know that yet

Therefore, if there are no red flips in Oliver/Scumbot, the only realistically possible team is MM/Huo -- supposedly Mizery, the evil teacher, tried killing MM/Huo on n1 and since it didn't happen they're the same alignment.

If there is a red flip, that clears MM. This narrows things down to

Luka/red flip
Martin/red flip
DM/red flip

With that knowledge, we can figure out exactly which by doing the following:

[QUOTE=Dark Magician;996054]Varcron goes MM and Martin
Tau goes MM and Luka[/QUOTE]

The evil teacher will detect if I am mafia -- we already know MM is town if there is a red flip from lynching Oli/Scumbot -- and if I am indeed mafia I get one too many stab wounds alongside MM.

The teacher check on MM + Luka will tell us if they're the same or not. If they're not, Luka is just outed since we know MM is town from the hypothetical red flip.

In the event that neither MM or I die, and Luka is revealed to be the same as MM, we can conclude that every one of us is town.

Which then reveals the final and only possibility:

DM/red flip

[QUOTE=Dark Magician;996058]Actually you both need to protect Helz for this to work.
Helz’s survival is key here.

@Martin
[MENTION=46604]Luka[/MENTION]

Protect Helz Tonight.[/QUOTE]

Since ghost is town-siding and controls evil teacher, only way to fuck with this plan is either not following the plan, Mizery lying to us (I doubt it), or the mafia NK. That is why by protecting Helz (as in, both me AND luka) we can ensure Helz lives through the next day to force a bride and instantly solve the game (or get extremely close to, I didn't math every possibility).[/QUOTE]

[MENTION=45982]oliverz144[/MENTION]

we're planning to vote you off so you can vengeful kill scumbot

this works so we can clear both you guys in one day, which leads to auto-win --- see the above quoted post

MAKE SURE YOU TELL THE HOST THAT YOU'RE TARGETING THEM -- YOU DON'T KILL THEM AFTER DEATH, YOU KILL THEM UPON DEATH.

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Okay so I think I got this down into one post.

Originally Posted by Dark Magician

We can agree it’s never Luka/Martin right?
Due to the lack of kills.

So in such case if Oliver and Scumbot aren’t hits it’s just MM/Tau?

this makes sense actually, as otherwise it'd be very likely one of Martin/Luka/Helz/Huo would've died

therefore one of us must be town, or both, we just don't know that yet

Therefore, if there are no red flips in Oliver/Scumbot, the only realistically possible team is MM/Huo -- supposedly Mizery, the evil teacher, tried killing MM/Huo on n1 and since it didn't happen they're the same alignment.

If there is a red flip, that clears MM. This narrows things down to

Luka/red flip
Martin/red flip
DM/red flip

With that knowledge, we can figure out exactly which by doing the following:

Originally Posted by Dark Magician

Varcron goes MM and Martin
Tau goes MM and Luka

The evil teacher will detect if I am mafia -- we already know MM is town if there is a red flip from lynching Oli/Scumbot -- and if I am indeed mafia I get one too many stab wounds alongside MM.

The teacher check on MM + Luka will tell us if they're the same or not. If they're not, Luka is just outed since we know MM is town from the hypothetical red flip.

In the event that neither MM or I die, and Luka is revealed to be the same as MM, we can conclude that every one of us is town.

Which then reveals the final and only possibility:

DM/red flip

Originally Posted by Dark Magician

Actually you both need to protect Helz for this to work.
Helz’s survival is key here.

@Martin
@Luka

Protect Helz Tonight.

Since ghost is town-siding and controls evil teacher, only way to fuck with this plan is either not following the plan, Mizery lying to us (I doubt it), or the mafia NK. That is why by protecting Helz (as in, both me AND luka) we can ensure Helz lives through the next day to force a bride and instantly solve the game (or get extremely close to, I didn't math every possibility).

@oliverz144

we're planning to vote you off so you can vengeful kill scumbot

this works so we can clear both you guys in one day, which leads to auto-win --- see the above quoted post

MAKE SURE YOU TELL THE HOST THAT YOU'RE TARGETING THEM -- YOU DON'T KILL THEM AFTER DEATH, YOU KILL THEM UPON DEATH.

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;996101]I think I've won a game somewhere voting only one time.

I've completely forgotten which one it was and how'd I end up doing that despite living for a while lol.[/QUOTE]

actually I can't find it

might've mixed it up with some other statistic

like maybe only one wrong vote

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

I think I've won a game somewhere voting only one time.

I've completely forgotten which one it was and how'd I end up doing that despite living for a while lol.

actually I can't find it

might've mixed it up with some other statistic

like maybe only one wrong vote

I think I've won a game somewhere voting only one time.

I've completely forgotten which one it was and how'd I end up doing that despite living for a while lol.

I think I've won a game somewhere voting only one time.

I've completely forgotten which one it was and how'd I end up doing that despite living for a while lol.

[MENTION=29377]Marshmallow Marshall[/MENTION]

Whole bunch of posts at SoD4, so I've got the important bits down into one post I think. This post I made should help you wrap your head around it. Also Mizery is Evil Teacher for context.

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;996092]Okay so I think I got this down into one post.



this makes sense actually, as otherwise it'd be very likely one of Martin/Luka/Helz/Huo would've died

therefore one of us must be town, or both, we just don't know that yet

Therefore, if there are no red flips in Oliver/Scumbot, the only realistically possible team is MM/Huo -- supposedly Mizery, the evil teacher, tried killing MM/Huo on n1 and since it didn't happen they're the same alignment.

If there is a red flip, that clears MM. This narrows things down to

Luka/red flip
Martin/red flip
DM/red flip

With that knowledge, we can figure out exactly which by doing the following:



The evil teacher will detect if I am mafia -- we already know MM is town if there is a red flip from lynching Oli/Scumbot -- and if I am indeed mafia I get one too many stab wounds alongside MM.

The teacher check on MM + Luka will tell us if they're the same or not. If they're not, Luka is just outed since we know MM is town from the hypothetical red flip.

In the event that neither MM or I die, and Luka is revealed to be the same as MM, we can conclude that every one of us is town.

Which then reveals the final and only possibility:

DM/red flip



Since ghost is town-siding and controls evil teacher, only way to fuck with this plan is either not following the plan, Mizery lying to us (I doubt it), or the mafia NK. That is why by protecting Helz (as in, both me AND luka) we can ensure Helz lives through the next day to force a bride and instantly solve the game (or get extremely close to, I didn't math every possibility).[/QUOTE]

@Marshmallow Marshall

Whole bunch of posts at SoD4, so I've got the important bits down into one post I think. This post I made should help you wrap your head around it. Also Mizery is Evil Teacher for context.

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Okay so I think I got this down into one post.



this makes sense actually, as otherwise it'd be very likely one of Martin/Luka/Helz/Huo would've died

therefore one of us must be town, or both, we just don't know that yet

Therefore, if there are no red flips in Oliver/Scumbot, the only realistically possible team is MM/Huo -- supposedly Mizery, the evil teacher, tried killing MM/Huo on n1 and since it didn't happen they're the same alignment.

If there is a red flip, that clears MM. This narrows things down to

Luka/red flip
Martin/red flip
DM/red flip

With that knowledge, we can figure out exactly which by doing the following:



The evil teacher will detect if I am mafia -- we already know MM is town if there is a red flip from lynching Oli/Scumbot -- and if I am indeed mafia I get one too many stab wounds alongside MM.

The teacher check on MM + Luka will tell us if they're the same or not. If they're not, Luka is just outed since we know MM is town from the hypothetical red flip.

In the event that neither MM or I die, and Luka is revealed to be the same as MM, we can conclude that every one of us is town.

Which then reveals the final and only possibility:

DM/red flip



Since ghost is town-siding and controls evil teacher, only way to fuck with this plan is either not following the plan, Mizery lying to us (I doubt it), or the mafia NK. That is why by protecting Helz (as in, both me AND luka) we can ensure Helz lives through the next day to force a bride and instantly solve the game (or get extremely close to, I didn't math every possibility).

99.5% chance sure DM is town

0.5% chance of me doesn't give a frick to care

99.5% chance sure DM is town

0.5% chance of me doesn't give a frick to care

Okay so I think I got this down into one post.

[QUOTE=Dark Magician;996048]We can agree it’s never Luka/Martin right?
Due to the lack of kills.

So in such case if Oliver and Scumbot aren’t hits it’s just MM/Tau?[/QUOTE]

this makes sense actually, as otherwise it'd be very likely one of Martin/Luka/Helz/Huo would've died

therefore one of us must be town, or both, we just don't know that yet

Therefore, if there are no red flips in Oliver/Scumbot, the only realistically possible team is MM/Huo -- supposedly Mizery, the evil teacher, tried killing MM/Huo on n1 and since it didn't happen they're the same alignment.

If there is a red flip, that clears MM. This narrows things down to

Luka/red flip
Martin/red flip
DM/red flip

With that knowledge, we can figure out exactly which by doing the following:

[QUOTE=Dark Magician;996054]Varcron goes MM and Martin
Tau goes MM and Luka[/QUOTE]

The evil teacher will detect if I am mafia -- we already know MM is town if there is a red flip from lynching Oli/Scumbot -- and if I am indeed mafia I get one too many stab wounds alongside MM.

The teacher check on MM + Luka will tell us if they're the same or not. If they're not, Luka is just outed since we know MM is town from the hypothetical red flip.

In the event that neither MM or I die, and Luka is revealed to be the same as MM, we can conclude that every one of us is town.

Which then reveals the final and only possibility:

DM/red flip

[QUOTE=Dark Magician;996058]Actually you both need to protect Helz for this to work.
Helz’s survival is key here.

@Martin
[MENTION=46604]Luka[/MENTION]

Protect Helz Tonight.[/QUOTE]

Since ghost is town-siding and controls evil teacher, only way to fuck with this plan is either not following the plan, Mizery lying to us (I doubt it), or the mafia NK. That is why by protecting Helz (as in, both me AND luka) we can ensure Helz lives through the next day to force a bride and instantly solve the game (or get extremely close to, I didn't math every possibility).

Okay so I think I got this down into one post.

Originally Posted by Dark Magician

We can agree it’s never Luka/Martin right?
Due to the lack of kills.

So in such case if Oliver and Scumbot aren’t hits it’s just MM/Tau?

this makes sense actually, as otherwise it'd be very likely one of Martin/Luka/Helz/Huo would've died

therefore one of us must be town, or both, we just don't know that yet

Therefore, if there are no red flips in Oliver/Scumbot, the only realistically possible team is MM/Huo -- supposedly Mizery, the evil teacher, tried killing MM/Huo on n1 and since it didn't happen they're the same alignment.

If there is a red flip, that clears MM. This narrows things down to

Luka/red flip
Martin/red flip
DM/red flip

With that knowledge, we can figure out exactly which by doing the following:

Originally Posted by Dark Magician

Varcron goes MM and Martin
Tau goes MM and Luka

The evil teacher will detect if I am mafia -- we already know MM is town if there is a red flip from lynching Oli/Scumbot -- and if I am indeed mafia I get one too many stab wounds alongside MM.

The teacher check on MM + Luka will tell us if they're the same or not. If they're not, Luka is just outed since we know MM is town from the hypothetical red flip.

In the event that neither MM or I die, and Luka is revealed to be the same as MM, we can conclude that every one of us is town.

Which then reveals the final and only possibility:

DM/red flip

Originally Posted by Dark Magician

Actually you both need to protect Helz for this to work.
Helz’s survival is key here.

@Martin
@Luka

Protect Helz Tonight.

Since ghost is town-siding and controls evil teacher, only way to fuck with this plan is either not following the plan, Mizery lying to us (I doubt it), or the mafia NK. That is why by protecting Helz (as in, both me AND luka) we can ensure Helz lives through the next day to force a bride and instantly solve the game (or get extremely close to, I didn't math every possibility).

[vote]Oliverz144[/vote]

-vote Oliverz144

But yeah if mafia's made no kills its probably just Oli/Luka or something like that.

But yeah if mafia's made no kills its probably just Oli/Luka or something like that.

My god this SoD was so spammy for a site like this lol.

There were a few bits of important information in all of that.

Like Miz's claim about what kills they were responsible for and that apparently they tried to kill MM and Huo on (by process of elimination I assume) n1.

My god this SoD was so spammy for a site like this lol.

There were a few bits of important information in all of that.

Like Miz's claim about what kills they were responsible for and that apparently they tried to kill MM and Huo on (by process of elimination I assume) n1.

yeah DM is waaaay ahead of everyone here

I'm starting to connect the dots, its preety clever

yeah DM is waaaay ahead of everyone here

I'm starting to connect the dots, its preety clever

I also forgot to put it in green smh.

I also forgot to put it in green smh.

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;996065][MENTION=3897]powerofdeath[/MENTION]

does cat lady's cat get sent if they submit the action during the day but die sometime later at EoD?[/QUOTE]

Actually wait I don't think there's a situation where that's useful

Any chance it would be would need the catlady to be alive to report any info recieved

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

@powerofdeath

does cat lady's cat get sent if they submit the action during the day but die sometime later at EoD?

Actually wait I don't think there's a situation where that's useful

Any chance it would be would need the catlady to be alive to report any info recieved

[MENTION=3897]powerofdeath[/MENTION]

does cat lady's cat get sent if they submit the action during the day but die sometime later at EoD?

@powerofdeath

does cat lady's cat get sent if they submit the action during the day but die sometime later at EoD?

[QUOTE=Dark Magician;996061]Never called you a wolf.
I said you can be one mechanically.[/QUOTE]

hasn't felt like its been viewed merely as simple mechanical possibility, but regardless

its just that I had hopes some of the things I've done would be seen as town-read worthy and getting called wolf in basically every mention of my name since then kinda just makes for an irritating and frustrating situation lol.

Originally Posted by Dark Magician

Never called you a wolf.
I said you can be one mechanically.

hasn't felt like its been viewed merely as simple mechanical possibility, but regardless

its just that I had hopes some of the things I've done would be seen as town-read worthy and getting called wolf in basically every mention of my name since then kinda just makes for an irritating and frustrating situation lol.

If there's any plan that can auto-win regardless of any one's alignment, then I'm all for it.

Especially if it'd get DM to shoot down his own self-absorbed ego-addicted belief that I'm wolf.

If there's any plan that can auto-win regardless of any one's alignment, then I'm all for it.

Especially if it'd get DM to shoot down his own self-absorbed ego-addicted belief that I'm wolf.

[QUOTE=Huo Huo and Mr Tail;996051]the fact that both protectives AND Helz are alive is stunning to me[/QUOTE]

hence why I think this may be useful to think about

I haven't really perfected it but I think we may be able to work something out that sorts out Me/Luka, and if not, will generate problems for our hypothetical partners

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;996022]Suggestion.

I think there's a point to not killing Me or Luka today (including trying to do it via Oliver's vengeful), because since we're both claiming protectives we can pre-emptively claim to protect either Helz or Huo Hou.

That way mafia's forced to kill one of us, or outside of us and Helz/Huo Huo (in other words, must night-kill one of Martin/Luka/Oliver/Marshmallow/Scumbot or possibly forsake the kill). If either the planned protects die then their protector is instantly outed. Interference like role-blocks from Cat Lady are very unlikely (or impossible) to happen without some mech info (or lack there-of) to corroborate it.

I don't know what we should suggest with the Evil Teacher kill though. I haven't fully mathed it all out. But I suspect there might be some combo we can work out where it easily limits the mechanical hypothetical worlds where I am a wolf, and if I am somehow a wolf, it would be quite devastating to my team's position.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Huo Huo and Mr Tail

the fact that both protectives AND Helz are alive is stunning to me

hence why I think this may be useful to think about

I haven't really perfected it but I think we may be able to work something out that sorts out Me/Luka, and if not, will generate problems for our hypothetical partners

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Suggestion.

I think there's a point to not killing Me or Luka today (including trying to do it via Oliver's vengeful), because since we're both claiming protectives we can pre-emptively claim to protect either Helz or Huo Hou.

That way mafia's forced to kill one of us, or outside of us and Helz/Huo Huo (in other words, must night-kill one of Martin/Luka/Oliver/Marshmallow/Scumbot or possibly forsake the kill). If either the planned protects die then their protector is instantly outed. Interference like role-blocks from Cat Lady are very unlikely (or impossible) to happen without some mech info (or lack there-of) to corroborate it.

I don't know what we should suggest with the Evil Teacher kill though. I haven't fully mathed it all out. But I suspect there might be some combo we can work out where it easily limits the mechanical hypothetical worlds where I am a wolf, and if I am somehow a wolf, it would be quite devastating to my team's position.

*among the first people to claim d3 within POE, made a significant breadcrumb of it well before that, and claims action in first post of d4*

DM: You're too hesistant!

:judgement:

*among the first people to claim d3 within POE, made a significant breadcrumb of it well before that, and claims action in first post of d4*

DM: You're too hesistant!

[QUOTE=Dark Magician;996040]I’m just pointing it out.
Are you not hesitant on claiming?
Mizery was and they aren’t mafia are they?[/QUOTE]

well if you were not busy spamming so much

you wouldn't have missed this

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;995999]I honestly don't understand half the things said about me so far.

I should claim because on the chance that I claim X I'm somehow wolf?

Even if I did claim X, it would be incorrect, and if I am wolf why would I not claim anything else lmao?

[B]Anyways, protectives should always be on Huo Huo given they can check. [SIZE=4]Me being killed + Huo Huo getting a check off would be quite optimal for fine-tuning the PoE[/SIZE].[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Dark Magician

I’m just pointing it out.
Are you not hesitant on claiming?
Mizery was and they aren’t mafia are they?

well if you were not busy spamming so much

you wouldn't have missed this

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

I honestly don't understand half the things said about me so far.

I should claim because on the chance that I claim X I'm somehow wolf?

Even if I did claim X, it would be incorrect, and if I am wolf why would I not claim anything else lmao?

Anyways, protectives should always be on Huo Huo given they can check. Me being killed + Huo Huo getting a check off would be quite optimal for fine-tuning the PoE.

[QUOTE=Mizery;996037]lol why are you saying i don't understand mech[/QUOTE]

I mean

I feel like half the time I try to talk about mech the way I (usually) do you tend to not understand it well or focus on other stuff or whatever

it just doesn't seem like I'm a very effective communicator about it when it comes to you

Originally Posted by Mizery

lol why are you saying i don't understand mech

I mean

I feel like half the time I try to talk about mech the way I (usually) do you tend to not understand it well or focus on other stuff or whatever

it just doesn't seem like I'm a very effective communicator about it when it comes to you

[QUOTE=Mizery;996033]every night?[/QUOTE]

n1 helz

n2 MM (I thought doc dodge on Huo)

Originally Posted by Mizery

every night?

n1 helz

n2 MM (I thought doc dodge on Huo)

[QUOTE=Dark Magician;996029]Indeed and it also looks like Martin is hesitant on claiming, It would be good to note if Luka got their ability off or not as they haven’t checked in yet.[/QUOTE]

DM why the fuck does it matter to you

if I am wolf I know what's bad to claim and can easily claim or not claim or whatever the heck wifom it

Mizery's known not to understand mech all that well

but you?

I expected better

Originally Posted by Dark Magician

Indeed and it also looks like Martin is hesitant on claiming, It would be good to note if Luka got their ability off or not as they haven’t checked in yet.

DM why the fuck does it matter to you

if I am wolf I know what's bad to claim and can easily claim or not claim or whatever the heck wifom it

Mizery's known not to understand mech all that well

but you?

I expected better

[QUOTE=Mizery;996025]Martin and luka need to claim their actions still[/QUOTE]

oh right I forgot you don't speak mech

I went to Huo Huo's house, if that wasn't clear earlier

Originally Posted by Mizery

Martin and luka need to claim their actions still

oh right I forgot you don't speak mech

I went to Huo Huo's house, if that wasn't clear earlier

Suggestion.

I think there's a point to not killing Me or Luka today (including trying to do it via Oliver's vengeful), because since we're both claiming protectives we can pre-emptively claim to protect either Helz or Huo Hou.

That way mafia's forced to kill one of us, or outside of us and Helz/Huo Huo (in other words, must night-kill one of Martin/Luka/Oliver/Marshmallow/Scumbot or possibly forsake the kill). If either the planned protects die then their protector is instantly outed. Interference like role-blocks from Cat Lady are very unlikely (or impossible) to happen without some mech info (or lack there-of) to corroborate it.

I don't know what we should suggest with the Evil Teacher kill though. I haven't fully mathed it all out. But I suspect there might be some combo we can work out where it easily limits the mechanical hypothetical worlds where I am a wolf, and if I am somehow a wolf, it would be quite devastating to my team's position.

Suggestion.

I think there's a point to not killing Me or Luka today (including trying to do it via Oliver's vengeful), because since we're both claiming protectives we can pre-emptively claim to protect either Helz or Huo Hou.

That way mafia's forced to kill one of us, or outside of us and Helz/Huo Huo (in other words, must night-kill one of Martin/Luka/Oliver/Marshmallow/Scumbot or possibly forsake the kill). If either the planned protects die then their protector is instantly outed. Interference like role-blocks from Cat Lady are very unlikely (or impossible) to happen without some mech info (or lack there-of) to corroborate it.

I don't know what we should suggest with the Evil Teacher kill though. I haven't fully mathed it all out. But I suspect there might be some combo we can work out where it easily limits the mechanical hypothetical worlds where I am a wolf, and if I am somehow a wolf, it would be quite devastating to my team's position.

I honestly don't understand half the things said about me so far.

I should claim because on the chance that I claim X I'm somehow wolf?

Even if I did claim X, it would be incorrect, and if I am wolf why would I not claim anything else lmao?

Anyways, protectives should always be on Huo Huo given they can check. Me being killed + Huo Huo getting a check off would be quite optimal for fine-tuning the PoE.

I honestly don't understand half the things said about me so far.

I should claim because on the chance that I claim X I'm somehow wolf?

Even if I did claim X, it would be incorrect, and if I am wolf why would I not claim anything else lmao?

Anyways, protectives should always be on Huo Huo given they can check. Me being killed + Huo Huo getting a check off would be quite optimal for fine-tuning the PoE.