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[QUOTE=powerofdeath;993255]Oops yeah I always confuse majority vs plurarity

Being Wild does nothing. I will add to rolecard to clarify. I also added: Upon death, you have the ability to choose 1 more person to become Wild.

Mafia have potential to Pacify, use Flower Child, Shadow the votes, and even have Vengeful change targets during the day. Hence the reasons for no discussion between the Mafia during the day. They gotta discuss everything out at night. I may even add more rolecards for Mafia to make it easier for them to hide behind claims.

If the rules are still very strict about it, I will make it 24/7.

I hate the idea of coinflip and letting "RNG" decide the outcome of tie votes. If you have better ideas than to skip the day, let me know.[/QUOTE]

Regarding Wildcard: Sounds good; it at least gives wildcard some leeway.

Regarding permanent mafia chat: I would have thought it makes the game [I]even more interesting[/I] if the Mafia can coordinate their powerful day actions if their skill level is high enough, making room for spectacular and thoroughly skill-dependent mafia plays; balancing can be achieved through other means. That said, if you really want night-only specifically because of the design of scum rolecards, I won't force you to change it; I however maintain the suggestion.

Regarding coinflip in ties: You're probably one of the first people I hear saying that, tbh, so I'm not sure how popular that concern is, but I can see where it comes from. The only actual low-complexity alternative I see would be to have [I]all[/I] tied people get lynched, which is how Paradox Interactive FM games handle it (TIE FOR THE TIE GODS). As a player, I wholeheartedly prefer the coinflip option, especially in a setup where the focus is supposed to be on the "nonstandard roles" that bring interesting interactions rather than on playing around the lynch system, but that's just personal preference. However, if you do choose to go through with the "ties result in skipping the day" mechanic, it is imperative that you make it [I]very[/I] clear for players, because people are otherwise likely going to miss it lol (as much as they're supposed to have read the setup).

Originally Posted by powerofdeath

Oops yeah I always confuse majority vs plurarity

Being Wild does nothing. I will add to rolecard to clarify. I also added: Upon death, you have the ability to choose 1 more person to become Wild.

Mafia have potential to Pacify, use Flower Child, Shadow the votes, and even have Vengeful change targets during the day. Hence the reasons for no discussion between the Mafia during the day. They gotta discuss everything out at night. I may even add more rolecards for Mafia to make it easier for them to hide behind claims.

If the rules are still very strict about it, I will make it 24/7.

I hate the idea of coinflip and letting "RNG" decide the outcome of tie votes. If you have better ideas than to skip the day, let me know.

Regarding Wildcard: Sounds good; it at least gives wildcard some leeway.

Regarding permanent mafia chat: I would have thought it makes the game even more interesting if the Mafia can coordinate their powerful day actions if their skill level is high enough, making room for spectacular and thoroughly skill-dependent mafia plays; balancing can be achieved through other means. That said, if you really want night-only specifically because of the design of scum rolecards, I won't force you to change it; I however maintain the suggestion.

Regarding coinflip in ties: You're probably one of the first people I hear saying that, tbh, so I'm not sure how popular that concern is, but I can see where it comes from. The only actual low-complexity alternative I see would be to have all tied people get lynched, which is how Paradox Interactive FM games handle it (TIE FOR THE TIE GODS). As a player, I wholeheartedly prefer the coinflip option, especially in a setup where the focus is supposed to be on the "nonstandard roles" that bring interesting interactions rather than on playing around the lynch system, but that's just personal preference. However, if you do choose to go through with the "ties result in skipping the day" mechanic, it is imperative that you make it very clear for players, because people are otherwise likely going to miss it lol (as much as they're supposed to have read the setup).

9v3v3 is a norm on the Arcade, yes - a completely different format with different roles, different meta, and most importantly, [I]different phase length.[/I] The Arcade is another game, and its balance standards do not apply here. If you doubt this, go host a fully vanilla game on the Arcade xD. More seriously: setups hosted on the Arcade would be infinitely townsided in FM due to massclaim potential and self-confirmable roles, which compensate for overall poor town skill, little time, and sheer numbers. This is just one example of the aspects that make FM and the Arcade so different, and I'm pretty sure noone seriously considered Arcade balancing standards as remotely valid for FM in the last years.
If you want to Lumify the setup and Lumi agrees, it can always be a good idea, yes.

Regarding Wild Card: What about a one-charge ability that makes a target player "wildify" anyone they visit (can be multitasked with normal wildification)?
Also, just to make sure, being "wild" does absolutely nothing apart from contributing to the Wild Card's wincon, right?

Regarding lynch system: Oh, I get it now. That is not what majority vote means, though: you're referring to [I]plurality[/I]-only, which is much better. Majority is the 50 % + 1 rule (the one that results in hammer). You basically want to disable hammers, which is fine, although some may find it bothersome in the later stages of the game.
I also notice that ties result in skipping the day, which is a highly unusual mechanic. I'm not sure what the point of it is, and believe it needs to be justified. If you do keep this in the game, it will have to be highlighted to be made very obvious, because people will 100 % assume ties are decided by coinflip like in the great majority of games.

Regarding mafia day chat: It's usually considered as a quality of life feature + one that enables skill-based outcome differences, which results in a better quality game overall. This is why the policy of FM staff is to make 24/7 scumchats default unless there is a setup design reason for it; the idea isn't to use it as a balance tool, and it's generally best to just use something else to do this. See [URL="https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/50003-24-7-Wolf-Chat-vs-Night-Only-Wolf-Chat"]this thread[/URL] (and maybe specifically [URL="https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/50003-24-7-Wolf-Chat-vs-Night-Only-Wolf-Chat?p=967004&viewfull=1#post967004"]this post of mine[/URL]) for the community discussion on the topic if you're interested.


Edit: Also just saying that while I'm criticizing/looking to fix stuff, I love the setup and really look forward to playing it! :D

9v3v3 is a norm on the Arcade, yes - a completely different format with different roles, different meta, and most importantly, different phase length. The Arcade is another game, and its balance standards do not apply here. If you doubt this, go host a fully vanilla game on the Arcade xD. More seriously: setups hosted on the Arcade would be infinitely townsided in FM due to massclaim potential and self-confirmable roles, which compensate for overall poor town skill, little time, and sheer numbers. This is just one example of the aspects that make FM and the Arcade so different, and I'm pretty sure noone seriously considered Arcade balancing standards as remotely valid for FM in the last years.
If you want to Lumify the setup and Lumi agrees, it can always be a good idea, yes.

Regarding Wild Card: What about a one-charge ability that makes a target player "wildify" anyone they visit (can be multitasked with normal wildification)?
Also, just to make sure, being "wild" does absolutely nothing apart from contributing to the Wild Card's wincon, right?

Regarding lynch system: Oh, I get it now. That is not what majority vote means, though: you're referring to plurality-only, which is much better. Majority is the 50 % + 1 rule (the one that results in hammer). You basically want to disable hammers, which is fine, although some may find it bothersome in the later stages of the game.
I also notice that ties result in skipping the day, which is a highly unusual mechanic. I'm not sure what the point of it is, and believe it needs to be justified. If you do keep this in the game, it will have to be highlighted to be made very obvious, because people will 100 % assume ties are decided by coinflip like in the great majority of games.

Regarding mafia day chat: It's usually considered as a quality of life feature + one that enables skill-based outcome differences, which results in a better quality game overall. This is why the policy of FM staff is to make 24/7 scumchats default unless there is a setup design reason for it; the idea isn't to use it as a balance tool, and it's generally best to just use something else to do this. See this thread (and maybe specifically this post of mine) for the community discussion on the topic if you're interested.


Edit: Also just saying that while I'm criticizing/looking to fix stuff, I love the setup and really look forward to playing it!

This setup looks very cool at first glance ^^


3 neutrals makes this potentially very swingy. It also makes town outnumbered pretty fast (9v3v3), which is a potential balance concern. This also makes it unlikely for saplings to choose to become trees, considering how that deprives town from highly necessary votes. I think turning one Neutral slot into a [COLOR="#00FF00"]Town[/COLOR]/[COLOR="#F0FFFF"]Neutral[/COLOR] Hidden could be a good way to ensure optimal balance, depending on the exact roles that have been selected.

[COLOR="#00FF00"]Bully[/COLOR] might be in the realm of anti-fun, and could probably achieve similar results without being as annoying by simply removing a player's ability to vote for the day instead of silencing them entirely. This isn't a decree, btw, I'm just saying it for the sake of fun.
(If it is meant to be a town mirror for Blackmailer, this is not clearly apparent in the current role descriptions, considering it says Bully will generate "wedgies" whereas Blackmailer will generate "blackmails"; if the intent is for them to be hard to distinguish between, this should be made obvious in the setup.)

How does [COLOR="#FF0000"]Shadow [/COLOR]work, exactly? Does it hide ALL votes (i.e. make all votes private), or does it simply hide the additional votes created by the role? It would be a good idea to specify in the rolecard.

How do [COLOR="#00FF00"]Pacifist[/COLOR]/[COLOR="#FF0000"]Evil Pacifist [/COLOR]work, exactly? The current wording seems to imply nobody can ever vote again when the ability is used, but I assume that isn't the case, considering it is entirely silly xD. Is the effect limited to the day the ability is used on? It would be a good idea to specify in the rolecard.

Does the [COLOR="#F0FFFF"]Wild Card[/COLOR] have to die in order to win? The current rolecard seems to imply so, considering the Wild Card itself cannot be "wild". A clarification on the matter in the rolecard could be nice. Also, if that is really how the role is meant to be played, it seems incredibly difficult to pull off, to the point of the role being almost unwinnable (having to die very late into the game while surviving for a long time earlier AND targeting the right people AND making sure the game doesn't end too soon... that's a lot of constraints).

Majority-only lynch system is pretty much out of fashion (and has been so for years) and is usually disliked compared to plurality+majority, unless there is a specific design reason for it. Hence, plurality+majority is advised. Judge can still be useful in that context if people end up skipping; it can also give an interesting possible incentive to skip.
Idem for scum night-only chat as opposed to permanent chat. Permanent chat is advised.

This setup looks very cool at first glance ^^


3 neutrals makes this potentially very swingy. It also makes town outnumbered pretty fast (9v3v3), which is a potential balance concern. This also makes it unlikely for saplings to choose to become trees, considering how that deprives town from highly necessary votes. I think turning one Neutral slot into a Town/Neutral Hidden could be a good way to ensure optimal balance, depending on the exact roles that have been selected.

Bully might be in the realm of anti-fun, and could probably achieve similar results without being as annoying by simply removing a player's ability to vote for the day instead of silencing them entirely. This isn't a decree, btw, I'm just saying it for the sake of fun.
(If it is meant to be a town mirror for Blackmailer, this is not clearly apparent in the current role descriptions, considering it says Bully will generate "wedgies" whereas Blackmailer will generate "blackmails"; if the intent is for them to be hard to distinguish between, this should be made obvious in the setup.)

How does Shadow work, exactly? Does it hide ALL votes (i.e. make all votes private), or does it simply hide the additional votes created by the role? It would be a good idea to specify in the rolecard.

How do Pacifist/Evil Pacifist work, exactly? The current wording seems to imply nobody can ever vote again when the ability is used, but I assume that isn't the case, considering it is entirely silly xD. Is the effect limited to the day the ability is used on? It would be a good idea to specify in the rolecard.

Does the Wild Card have to die in order to win? The current rolecard seems to imply so, considering the Wild Card itself cannot be "wild". A clarification on the matter in the rolecard could be nice. Also, if that is really how the role is meant to be played, it seems incredibly difficult to pull off, to the point of the role being almost unwinnable (having to die very late into the game while surviving for a long time earlier AND targeting the right people AND making sure the game doesn't end too soon... that's a lot of constraints).

Majority-only lynch system is pretty much out of fashion (and has been so for years) and is usually disliked compared to plurality+majority, unless there is a specific design reason for it. Hence, plurality+majority is advised. Judge can still be useful in that context if people end up skipping; it can also give an interesting possible incentive to skip.
Idem for scum night-only chat as opposed to permanent chat. Permanent chat is advised.

[QUOTE=Helz;993233]I do agree I spoke to an assumption that things can not change while it is technically possible.

I feel its less of "its impossible so why try" so much as "I have so much energy and time in my life, what do I focus on that brings value to my life?" I could follow political parties and politicians or the proposed laws but even that dissemination of information is awful. Information is twisted in its presentation and politicians often change their positions. To actually understand the major laws that get passed there is a hardly an outlet out there that will actually dig into it and explain it. I remember years after Obama care was put into law the very politicians that voted for it admitted to not understanding massive parts of it. These kinds of things make it very intellectually demanding as well as time consuming to even be aware. The fact or major news outlets do not even try when its literally their job to disseminate such information is a big problem.

Then if I am aware what do I do with that? I get frustrated trying to hold conversations that cut through skin deep regurgitated rhetoric or angry at the abuses of power with no real recourse to implement change. At one point I literally sued the federal government for enforcement of a FOIA request to get information on conflicts of interest in Central Texas VA Healthcare and I still couldn't push that through. I feel that not just the system itself is broken but the clearly established checks and balances themselves are compromised. I had my day where I spent a lot of time and effort to right the wrongs I saw at scale but I drew the conclusion my time is better spent elsewhere. There is only so much of it and I can do more good working with organizations and individuals within my society. If anything I would say people should be involved in their very local politics but addressing local corruption can get dangerous fast. At the end of each presidency a pile of pardons gets handed out to powerful people who broke the law and as a society we have pretty much accepted that as 'normal.' I think we are well over the point of no return and some collapse and reform will have to occur to reset things.

Maybe its more on the individual to decide if Apathy or Awareness is the right way to go. For me personally I very intentionally avoid allowing some things space in my head.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough; all of this indicates a sore need for [I]simplification[/I], or at the very least effective vulgarisation that doesn't twist reality too much + proper education so that people can have a decent understanding of politics without having to spend their life researching stuff lol. That is up to politicians to do - and is thus up to citizens to demand. This is not as hard to do as having a global understanding of politics, by the way: interest/pressure groups can focus on specific issues that remain political without getting involved in the broader, large-scale issues.

About the "point of no return" position: I unfortunately feel like you might be right on that point, specifically regarding the US. And while I am aware this thread has "USA" in its title lol, I also feel like the conversation ended up expressing views that would apply to any democratic society, which is extremely unhealthy for the ones that aren't near-doomed by a terribly strange system that imperatively requires a [I]deep [/I]reform within its core principles (why the heck do "great electors" even exist today??? unnecessary steps away from direct democracy contribute to the feeling of lack of power over the system). Hence, my earlier points probably apply much more to the rest of the democratic world than to the US.

However, this argument could always be reversed... and turned into an argument for becoming revolutionary, specifically to bring this deep reform from ideas to reality. That is however infinitely beyond the point, and expecting people who can live reasonably well to become revolutionary is probably irrational.

And in the end, it is obviously up to individuals to do what they want with their lives. It's just that I fear those who decide they want nothing to do with politics [I]at all[/I] will end up having the very bad surprise of not being able to do what they want with their lives anymore.

Originally Posted by Helz

I do agree I spoke to an assumption that things can not change while it is technically possible.

I feel its less of "its impossible so why try" so much as "I have so much energy and time in my life, what do I focus on that brings value to my life?" I could follow political parties and politicians or the proposed laws but even that dissemination of information is awful. Information is twisted in its presentation and politicians often change their positions. To actually understand the major laws that get passed there is a hardly an outlet out there that will actually dig into it and explain it. I remember years after Obama care was put into law the very politicians that voted for it admitted to not understanding massive parts of it. These kinds of things make it very intellectually demanding as well as time consuming to even be aware. The fact or major news outlets do not even try when its literally their job to disseminate such information is a big problem.

Then if I am aware what do I do with that? I get frustrated trying to hold conversations that cut through skin deep regurgitated rhetoric or angry at the abuses of power with no real recourse to implement change. At one point I literally sued the federal government for enforcement of a FOIA request to get information on conflicts of interest in Central Texas VA Healthcare and I still couldn't push that through. I feel that not just the system itself is broken but the clearly established checks and balances themselves are compromised. I had my day where I spent a lot of time and effort to right the wrongs I saw at scale but I drew the conclusion my time is better spent elsewhere. There is only so much of it and I can do more good working with organizations and individuals within my society. If anything I would say people should be involved in their very local politics but addressing local corruption can get dangerous fast. At the end of each presidency a pile of pardons gets handed out to powerful people who broke the law and as a society we have pretty much accepted that as 'normal.' I think we are well over the point of no return and some collapse and reform will have to occur to reset things.

Maybe its more on the individual to decide if Apathy or Awareness is the right way to go. For me personally I very intentionally avoid allowing some things space in my head.

Fair enough; all of this indicates a sore need for simplification, or at the very least effective vulgarisation that doesn't twist reality too much + proper education so that people can have a decent understanding of politics without having to spend their life researching stuff lol. That is up to politicians to do - and is thus up to citizens to demand. This is not as hard to do as having a global understanding of politics, by the way: interest/pressure groups can focus on specific issues that remain political without getting involved in the broader, large-scale issues.

About the "point of no return" position: I unfortunately feel like you might be right on that point, specifically regarding the US. And while I am aware this thread has "USA" in its title lol, I also feel like the conversation ended up expressing views that would apply to any democratic society, which is extremely unhealthy for the ones that aren't near-doomed by a terribly strange system that imperatively requires a deep reform within its core principles (why the heck do "great electors" even exist today??? unnecessary steps away from direct democracy contribute to the feeling of lack of power over the system). Hence, my earlier points probably apply much more to the rest of the democratic world than to the US.

However, this argument could always be reversed... and turned into an argument for becoming revolutionary, specifically to bring this deep reform from ideas to reality. That is however infinitely beyond the point, and expecting people who can live reasonably well to become revolutionary is probably irrational.

And in the end, it is obviously up to individuals to do what they want with their lives. It's just that I fear those who decide they want nothing to do with politics at all will end up having the very bad surprise of not being able to do what they want with their lives anymore.

RE: martin:

I don't think this was entirely an issue of "not having read the setup". We knew the setup was 24h and signed for it anyway (I had only forgot it when the game started, but certainly not when I signed lol). It was more of an issue of not having [I]experienced[/I] that phase length before, at least in my case. I also don't think it's fair at all to say the site has an activity problem in general (@ Richard), considering this.

Much like Martin said, I don't see myself playing 24h, simply because the commitment required is insane if you wish to have an active game. It simply does not match with having a life (and maintaining healthy contact with other commitments), and I'm honestly curious to know if anyone can do that [I]without sacrificing "real life" aspects, or to speak more accurately, any aspects unrelated to the game.[/I]

RE: martin:

I don't think this was entirely an issue of "not having read the setup". We knew the setup was 24h and signed for it anyway (I had only forgot it when the game started, but certainly not when I signed lol). It was more of an issue of not having experienced that phase length before, at least in my case. I also don't think it's fair at all to say the site has an activity problem in general (@ Richard), considering this.

Much like Martin said, I don't see myself playing 24h, simply because the commitment required is insane if you wish to have an active game. It simply does not match with having a life (and maintaining healthy contact with other commitments), and I'm honestly curious to know if anyone can do that without sacrificing "real life" aspects, or to speak more accurately, any aspects unrelated to the game.

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;993208]Yeah I don't think we should be running 24 hour games in the future

Otherwise this just happens[/QUOTE]

this lol, I'm pretty sure this is consensual

Also I already said it in the discord, but sorry for being trash XD. I literally came in 20 minutes after I was lynched, thinking I would finally be able to participate after having had lots of trouble finding actual time to dedicate to the game. RIP.

Also also scum still deserved that win even barring town mistakes so not too bad

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Yeah I don't think we should be running 24 hour games in the future

Otherwise this just happens

this lol, I'm pretty sure this is consensual

Also I already said it in the discord, but sorry for being trash XD. I literally came in 20 minutes after I was lynched, thinking I would finally be able to participate after having had lots of trouble finding actual time to dedicate to the game. RIP.

Also also scum still deserved that win even barring town mistakes so not too bad

[QUOTE=Helz;993030]While I agree with the core idea of what you are saying I just do not know if it makes sense in practice. If a meteorite is going to hit earth and kill everyone and we know we are powerless to stop it is awareness of that impending doom an improvement? I would say no. I see so much anger and toxicity generated from politics. People get blindly caught up in talking points and attack etch other over regurgitated rhetoric that often totally misses any kind of functional solution. Worse we see people classifying others as racists, fascists, or hateful people the moment they voice tangential concepts to the established rhetoric. Is this really better than apathy?

I can honestly say the people I know who are the most active keeping up in politics are often the least pleasant people to be around. They get consumed by a manufactured world view and aggressively push that world view onto others blaming 'the other side' for what they see wrong in the world. I feel like this basic cost in quality of life would be justified if some good came of it but really, I don't see it. I do not see some kind of progress and I generally think the world is a worse place now than it was 10 years ago.

Awareness does not seem like the issue to me. We are all watching as corporations crunch on citizens squeezing more money for products designed to be disposable while wages fall. While our purchasing power falls stock prices grow so politicians call it progress. There is just a very basic conflict of interests in the decision making process we are totally unable to address. Even the way we have public discourse on the subjects has been so consolidated that its used to manipulate the public.

For example if we were to talk about healthcare the conversation almost immediately jumps to insurance. Should people pay for it? Should it cover pre-existing conditions? Should the Government pay for it? But why is that where the conversation goes instead of addressing that Americans pay astronomically larger amounts for medicines and services than other first world countries? We are conditioned to approach the conversation from such an angle. It provides a solution to 'people need healthcare' without hurting the profit margins politicians are so focused on. Maybe its the very 'awareness' of us tuning into the rhetoric that hinders us from approaching situations with functional solutions.

I just don't see being aware of problems as an objectively good thing when as a society we march are way down a bad path with full awareness of what we are doing. Accepting strife and pain into our lives without some benefit for that cost is rough.[/QUOTE]

This feeling is not unique to the US, and seems to be harming pretty much every liberal-democratic society (other societies are too busy suffering in silence or trying to attain something that somewhat resembles liberal democracy). There are two counter-points to your stance I wish to bring, even though I'm not sure they will satisfy you, simply because the truth is there is no heavenly amazing super solution.

1) Social organisation is not a meteorite. It is not impossible to change. It is incredibly hard to individually control, but so are many things in life. To manage this lack of power over reality in order to avoid harming one's health [I]while keeping on living and interacting with the world[/I] is a work that probably lasts throughout one's entire life, but it's still necessary.

2) If we just choose to see all the problems of our time as inevitable and entirely uncontrollable forces, almost like divine punishment, then why don't we all just go and jump from the nearest cliff? Saying darkness will inevitably consume everything and we cannot do anything about it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It also strips life of its meaning. Better a tragic life than an utterly empty one, for the former is life, whereas the latter is death before death itself.

Originally Posted by Helz

While I agree with the core idea of what you are saying I just do not know if it makes sense in practice. If a meteorite is going to hit earth and kill everyone and we know we are powerless to stop it is awareness of that impending doom an improvement? I would say no. I see so much anger and toxicity generated from politics. People get blindly caught up in talking points and attack etch other over regurgitated rhetoric that often totally misses any kind of functional solution. Worse we see people classifying others as racists, fascists, or hateful people the moment they voice tangential concepts to the established rhetoric. Is this really better than apathy?

I can honestly say the people I know who are the most active keeping up in politics are often the least pleasant people to be around. They get consumed by a manufactured world view and aggressively push that world view onto others blaming 'the other side' for what they see wrong in the world. I feel like this basic cost in quality of life would be justified if some good came of it but really, I don't see it. I do not see some kind of progress and I generally think the world is a worse place now than it was 10 years ago.

Awareness does not seem like the issue to me. We are all watching as corporations crunch on citizens squeezing more money for products designed to be disposable while wages fall. While our purchasing power falls stock prices grow so politicians call it progress. There is just a very basic conflict of interests in the decision making process we are totally unable to address. Even the way we have public discourse on the subjects has been so consolidated that its used to manipulate the public.

For example if we were to talk about healthcare the conversation almost immediately jumps to insurance. Should people pay for it? Should it cover pre-existing conditions? Should the Government pay for it? But why is that where the conversation goes instead of addressing that Americans pay astronomically larger amounts for medicines and services than other first world countries? We are conditioned to approach the conversation from such an angle. It provides a solution to 'people need healthcare' without hurting the profit margins politicians are so focused on. Maybe its the very 'awareness' of us tuning into the rhetoric that hinders us from approaching situations with functional solutions.

I just don't see being aware of problems as an objectively good thing when as a society we march are way down a bad path with full awareness of what we are doing. Accepting strife and pain into our lives without some benefit for that cost is rough.

This feeling is not unique to the US, and seems to be harming pretty much every liberal-democratic society (other societies are too busy suffering in silence or trying to attain something that somewhat resembles liberal democracy). There are two counter-points to your stance I wish to bring, even though I'm not sure they will satisfy you, simply because the truth is there is no heavenly amazing super solution.

1) Social organisation is not a meteorite. It is not impossible to change. It is incredibly hard to individually control, but so are many things in life. To manage this lack of power over reality in order to avoid harming one's health while keeping on living and interacting with the world is a work that probably lasts throughout one's entire life, but it's still necessary.

2) If we just choose to see all the problems of our time as inevitable and entirely uncontrollable forces, almost like divine punishment, then why don't we all just go and jump from the nearest cliff? Saying darkness will inevitably consume everything and we cannot do anything about it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It also strips life of its meaning. Better a tragic life than an utterly empty one, for the former is life, whereas the latter is death before death itself.

It is indeed very swingy lol, and that will remain true no matter what unless the spirit of the setup is altered, which is not the goal.

One thing I realized, which is a major concern: what stops town from massclaiming? Most role slots have no overlap, and those that do have very little. Scum can be put in boxes on D1, which is infinitely more valuable than the knowledge given to scum.

Anti-claim mechanics (such as a scum factional ability to get a free kill on any hardclaimers in addition to the normal factional kill) could fix the issue. A softer option would be to add significant overlap to the role possibilities so that massclaim becomes less informative, but that would probably involve removing some roles (or making each slot have like 6 role possiblities lol).


Also, Detective lacks a rolecard lol. I assume it's just Tracker?

It is indeed very swingy lol, and that will remain true no matter what unless the spirit of the setup is altered, which is not the goal.

One thing I realized, which is a major concern: what stops town from massclaiming? Most role slots have no overlap, and those that do have very little. Scum can be put in boxes on D1, which is infinitely more valuable than the knowledge given to scum.

Anti-claim mechanics (such as a scum factional ability to get a free kill on any hardclaimers in addition to the normal factional kill) could fix the issue. A softer option would be to add significant overlap to the role possibilities so that massclaim becomes less informative, but that would probably involve removing some roles (or making each slot have like 6 role possiblities lol).


Also, Detective lacks a rolecard lol. I assume it's just Tracker?

[QUOTE=Helz;992505]I feel like political apathy is more of a reelection of what citizens have control over. The more people realize their vote does not matter the less they will vote or even engage in the process. For an example consider New York's right to repair legislation. Overwhelmingly supported by both citizens and politicians with sweeping votes but when put into practice Govenor Hochul gutted it favoring corporations interests.
So why engauge? When you have both citizens and politicians in favor of something and it still can not happen the system itself is broken. You can get mad about it and scream until your blue in the face or you can say fuck it and focus on the things in your life you can change.

In short- I think political apathy is healthy in a world where involving yourself will just make you upset and you have no voice. Some will say you need to keep screaming into the dark but I would rather pick the fights I take personally and I respect people that step back from the toxicity of macro politics.[/QUOTE]

Does the overwhelming majority of people have no real influence whatsoever on macro politics? Absolutely. Does that mean they shouldn't have any awareness of where the ship of state, [I]the ship they are on themselves[/I], is sailing? No. While not everyone has to be a literal activist on a full-time basis, being aware of issues so that small-scale actions are at least [I]possible[/I] is a good idea. Even more importantly, if everyone just decides to be apathetic, the sliver of accountability that exists and that maintains a minimum of acceptability when it comes to macro decisions pretty much disappears.

That doesn't mean one has to lose their mind over it through anger or desperation, though; drawing a line is what is "healthy", as you said. One simply has to be mindful not to draw that line too close to "nothing".

Originally Posted by Helz

I feel like political apathy is more of a reelection of what citizens have control over. The more people realize their vote does not matter the less they will vote or even engage in the process. For an example consider New York's right to repair legislation. Overwhelmingly supported by both citizens and politicians with sweeping votes but when put into practice Govenor Hochul gutted it favoring corporations interests.
So why engauge? When you have both citizens and politicians in favor of something and it still can not happen the system itself is broken. You can get mad about it and scream until your blue in the face or you can say fuck it and focus on the things in your life you can change.

In short- I think political apathy is healthy in a world where involving yourself will just make you upset and you have no voice. Some will say you need to keep screaming into the dark but I would rather pick the fights I take personally and I respect people that step back from the toxicity of macro politics.

Does the overwhelming majority of people have no real influence whatsoever on macro politics? Absolutely. Does that mean they shouldn't have any awareness of where the ship of state, the ship they are on themselves, is sailing? No. While not everyone has to be a literal activist on a full-time basis, being aware of issues so that small-scale actions are at least possible is a good idea. Even more importantly, if everyone just decides to be apathetic, the sliver of accountability that exists and that maintains a minimum of acceptability when it comes to macro decisions pretty much disappears.

That doesn't mean one has to lose their mind over it through anger or desperation, though; drawing a line is what is "healthy", as you said. One simply has to be mindful not to draw that line too close to "nothing".

Fix the State Prosecutor rolecard's quote tags :wowee:

What happens if the State Prosecutor gets his target convicted? Does he ascend to Heaven and leave the game? Or is he a kingmaker? (I advise against the latter)


Did you have any ideas to fix the issues brought up during the last review while respecting your setup's spirit (see posts above)? Right now, scum do not have any incentive to act scummy.
New idea that has not been brought up yet: What if the corrupt party needed to get more votes than the other one in order to win? It would make scum idleness suboptimal.

Fix the State Prosecutor rolecard's quote tags

What happens if the State Prosecutor gets his target convicted? Does he ascend to Heaven and leave the game? Or is he a kingmaker? (I advise against the latter)


Did you have any ideas to fix the issues brought up during the last review while respecting your setup's spirit (see posts above)? Right now, scum do not have any incentive to act scummy.
New idea that has not been brought up yet: What if the corrupt party needed to get more votes than the other one in order to win? It would make scum idleness suboptimal.

[QUOTE=bakermir;991738][MENTION=29377]Marshmallow Marshall[/MENTION]

You have a lot to catch up. Please trust me and don't hammer. We are saving the game.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'm actually not [I]voting[/I], considering it seems we're extending D1, which is infinitely useful in a game with 24h days. Don't want that to break in any way. "Saving the game" might be a little over the top, but I'm starting to believe 24h phases don't really fit with my posting style at all; didn't know it would be that bad, and that's a bit on me :(

ISOing you because you seem to be the main driving force here

[QUOTE=bakermir;991591]Economics :joy_nerd:[/QUOTE]

Lol nice, good luck with that

[QUOTE=bakermir;991591]I was calculating out loud. I also have a tendency to break the player list into segments and figure out where to pay attention, analyzing potential pathways the setup has. Similar to what I do with postcount groupings on FoL, and it has been 100% successful so far, BUT! I am not yet proficient at fully utilizing it to my advantage -_-[/QUOTE]

I mean, that's basically calculating what will happen when you will roll a 6 on your dice [I]before rolling your dice[/I].

[QUOTE=bakermir;991591]I have caught the Nya pox.

It's so over.



I haven't played a game in which tutuu was Mafia, but she once mentioned how she snowed JaggedJimmyJay, which should serve as a good heads up for the rest of us. Now that I've planted the seeds of paranoia, I must admit tutuu hasn't done anything that would ping me yet. This particular post is more likely to come from town tutuu that I know. She is demonstrating good reasoning and progress in terms of how my icebreaker and rvs posts could be read. Another note on tutuu, she has always managed to make at least one post where she soulreads something about me [COLOR="#AFEEEE"]and this time it might be this.[/COLOR]

Her interactions with others match her [COLOR="#FFD700"]town spirit[/COLOR] i.e. questioning Martin's thoughts on being chopped and pointed out how polarized I am. While this alone may not be a strong indicator of their alignment, it is [COLOR="#FFD700"]one of the metrics[/COLOR] I will keep an eye on.[/QUOTE]

Well, it can already be established that Tutuu and Baker are very probably not scum together (this is just not theatrical at all, and sounds more like either town finding town, or scum Baker trying to get on the good side of town Tutuu). Beyond that, the general enthusiasm from Baker, which has already been highlighted (mostly by Tutuu, as far as I could see), seems not to be just related to funny posts, memes and one-liners, but to also apply to solviness: this part about Tutuu just... feels happy? As in, it feels like Baker is [I]glad to think about alignments[/I], which is a feeling I can 100 % relate to lol.

I guess I could be wrong and my read is mostly based on soft/subjective tonal aspects, but I kinda want to give Baker a pass here. Considering the game mechanics, that would basically involve never putting him in the elimination pool. It's still early, but I'd like thoughts on that if possible (in the hope that I actually have time to interact lol).

Originally Posted by bakermir

@Marshmallow Marshall

You have a lot to catch up. Please trust me and don't hammer. We are saving the game.

Yeah, I'm actually not voting, considering it seems we're extending D1, which is infinitely useful in a game with 24h days. Don't want that to break in any way. "Saving the game" might be a little over the top, but I'm starting to believe 24h phases don't really fit with my posting style at all; didn't know it would be that bad, and that's a bit on me

ISOing you because you seem to be the main driving force here

Originally Posted by bakermir

Economics :joy_nerd:

Lol nice, good luck with that

Originally Posted by bakermir

I was calculating out loud. I also have a tendency to break the player list into segments and figure out where to pay attention, analyzing potential pathways the setup has. Similar to what I do with postcount groupings on FoL, and it has been 100% successful so far, BUT! I am not yet proficient at fully utilizing it to my advantage

I mean, that's basically calculating what will happen when you will roll a 6 on your dice before rolling your dice.

Originally Posted by bakermir

I have caught the Nya pox.

It's so over.



I haven't played a game in which tutuu was Mafia, but she once mentioned how she snowed JaggedJimmyJay, which should serve as a good heads up for the rest of us. Now that I've planted the seeds of paranoia, I must admit tutuu hasn't done anything that would ping me yet. This particular post is more likely to come from town tutuu that I know. She is demonstrating good reasoning and progress in terms of how my icebreaker and rvs posts could be read. Another note on tutuu, she has always managed to make at least one post where she soulreads something about me and this time it might be this.

Her interactions with others match her town spirit i.e. questioning Martin's thoughts on being chopped and pointed out how polarized I am. While this alone may not be a strong indicator of their alignment, it is one of the metrics I will keep an eye on.

Well, it can already be established that Tutuu and Baker are very probably not scum together (this is just not theatrical at all, and sounds more like either town finding town, or scum Baker trying to get on the good side of town Tutuu). Beyond that, the general enthusiasm from Baker, which has already been highlighted (mostly by Tutuu, as far as I could see), seems not to be just related to funny posts, memes and one-liners, but to also apply to solviness: this part about Tutuu just... feels happy? As in, it feels like Baker is glad to think about alignments, which is a feeling I can 100 % relate to lol.

I guess I could be wrong and my read is mostly based on soft/subjective tonal aspects, but I kinda want to give Baker a pass here. Considering the game mechanics, that would basically involve never putting him in the elimination pool. It's still early, but I'd like thoughts on that if possible (in the hope that I actually have time to interact lol).

[QUOTE=tutuu;991566]baker is probably town because he's excited to play the game

and i know he's not w/w with me, which he said he would enjoy playing

if he was wolfing against me would he have this much fun? idk maybe. i haven't seen him wolf. but gut says he doesn't know that i'm town

those arbitrary posts of his where he suggests arbitrary stuff like "no more than 1 wolf posted" and then thinking stuff further while accepting that his assumption to be right or him writing out strategies and stuff - i dont understand almost any of it but it's behavior he's shown as town. unless someone wants to tell me he mimics that as wolf perfectly - id say baker so far is representing a standard baker town game[/QUOTE]

I like this analysis - as in, I like that you tried to analyze baker's behavior with what little information you have by looking at his attitude. That said, I wouldn't be so quick to townread him based on his excitement, considering it's likely he just is a cool guy who finds being in a cool place cool. We pretty much all missed the guy xD
And besides, it's not like he is known for particularly preferring town over scum, is it?

Originally Posted by tutuu

baker is probably town because he's excited to play the game

and i know he's not w/w with me, which he said he would enjoy playing

if he was wolfing against me would he have this much fun? idk maybe. i haven't seen him wolf. but gut says he doesn't know that i'm town

those arbitrary posts of his where he suggests arbitrary stuff like "no more than 1 wolf posted" and then thinking stuff further while accepting that his assumption to be right or him writing out strategies and stuff - i dont understand almost any of it but it's behavior he's shown as town. unless someone wants to tell me he mimics that as wolf perfectly - id say baker so far is representing a standard baker town game

I like this analysis - as in, I like that you tried to analyze baker's behavior with what little information you have by looking at his attitude. That said, I wouldn't be so quick to townread him based on his excitement, considering it's likely he just is a cool guy who finds being in a cool place cool. We pretty much all missed the guy xD
And besides, it's not like he is known for particularly preferring town over scum, is it?

[QUOTE=bakermir;991540]But if we take everyone as town

Mafia
Mafia d4
Mafia d3
Town d2
Town d1

Town (ikarus)
Town (varcron)
Town (martin)
Town (tutuu)
Town (baker)

We always eliminate a mafia by D4 even if one of the posters is mafia.

If there are two ore more posters from mafia then town loses.[/QUOTE]

Did you learn the ways of RNGsus on your pilgrimage to complete your training, good sir? Because what you're proposing is basically an arbitrary =rand lynch order... which is pretty silly xD. It also seemed serious...?

Originally Posted by bakermir

But if we take everyone as town

Mafia
Mafia d4
Mafia d3
Town d2
Town d1

Town (ikarus)
Town (varcron)
Town (martin)
Town (tutuu)
Town (baker)

We always eliminate a mafia by D4 even if one of the posters is mafia.

If there are two ore more posters from mafia then town loses.

Did you learn the ways of RNGsus on your pilgrimage to complete your training, good sir? Because what you're proposing is basically an arbitrary =rand lynch order... which is pretty silly xD. It also seemed serious...?

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;991520]I wonder how many people signed up or reserved not realizing its 24 hours.

Its very rare for our site to have that lol, and despite me reading the setup a while back I still managed to forget it.[/QUOTE]
Yup, I actually forgot too (despite having read and even discussed the setup lol), and that makes the game quite the marathon. Oof. We'll see how it goes.
[QUOTE=MartinGG99;991516]I may have forgotten that day phases are 24 hours and that totally bodes well for my day-to-day activity in a busy weekend.

I should be fine, [COLOR="#008080"]though it may be some level of wise to have me to do the first nomination if everyone goes crazy with the posting.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[COLOR="#008080"]This[/COLOR] is a very innocuous-looking sentence, but you're basically saying you want... to get lynched? What? It's not necessarily scummy in itself, but why lol

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

I wonder how many people signed up or reserved not realizing its 24 hours.

Its very rare for our site to have that lol, and despite me reading the setup a while back I still managed to forget it.

Yup, I actually forgot too (despite having read and even discussed the setup lol), and that makes the game quite the marathon. Oof. We'll see how it goes.

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

I may have forgotten that day phases are 24 hours and that totally bodes well for my day-to-day activity in a busy weekend.

I should be fine, though it may be some level of wise to have me to do the first nomination if everyone goes crazy with the posting.

This is a very innocuous-looking sentence, but you're basically saying you want... to get lynched? What? It's not necessarily scummy in itself, but why lol

[QUOTE=tutuu;991663][MENTION=29377]Marshmallow Marshall[/MENTION]
[MENTION=43484]Varcron[/MENTION]
[MENTION=36817]ikarusdk[/MENTION]
[MENTION=46577]The Scarlet Letters[/MENTION]

Hello, whos mafia?[/QUOTE]

you

Hi xD

I kinda expected I'd be late as I said pregame, but sorry anyway. Gonna catch up to the best of my ability, starting with the beginning.

Originally Posted by tutuu

@Marshmallow Marshall
@Varcron
@ikarusdk
@The Scarlet Letters

Hello, whos mafia?

you

Hi xD

I kinda expected I'd be late as I said pregame, but sorry anyway. Gonna catch up to the best of my ability, starting with the beginning.

[QUOTE=OzyWho;991482]I wanted re-post my thoughts in the thread.
It's possible the expression I used was American English and that's why it could be unfamiliar to some :cheesy:
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/e0KANEM.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

OOOOOH, I get it now! I had just never seen the "to fall something under" formulation, and couldn't find it anywhere. Sorry XD.
[SPOILER=Off-topic grammar stuff]Terribly off-topic, but I actually wonder if this formulation is correct, i.e. if "fall" can have a direct object in "fall under". I have some doubts, considering you can't fall [I]something[/I] normally[s], except under the "to fall a tree" meaning[/s] actually it's to FELL a tree, my bad, so yeah I don't think you can fall [I]something[/I]. Looking up "to fall something under", meaning "to classify something as", also happens to yield no good results (only "to fall under" comes up).
...is there a native speaker who could confirm any of this? Pwetty pwease uwu owo?[/SPOILER]

I don't think that falls under curiosity, but perhaps even under a [I]lack[/I] of curiosity (as in, you'd rather say that instead of trying to figure out how to "get good"/perceive yourself as good)... but I'm not in your brain, and no matter how I rephrase this, I always feel like I'm being a condescending annoying guy xD, meaning no offense.

Edit: dead thread rip

Originally Posted by OzyWho

I wanted re-post my thoughts in the thread.
It's possible the expression I used was American English and that's why it could be unfamiliar to some

OOOOOH, I get it now! I had just never seen the "to fall something under" formulation, and couldn't find it anywhere. Sorry XD.

Spoiler : Off-topic grammar stuff :

Terribly off-topic, but I actually wonder if this formulation is correct, i.e. if "fall" can have a direct object in "fall under". I have some doubts, considering you can't fall something normally, except under the "to fall a tree" meaning actually it's to FELL a tree, my bad, so yeah I don't think you can fall something. Looking up "to fall something under", meaning "to classify something as", also happens to yield no good results (only "to fall under" comes up).
...is there a native speaker who could confirm any of this? Pwetty pwease uwu owo?

I don't think that falls under curiosity, but perhaps even under a lack of curiosity (as in, you'd rather say that instead of trying to figure out how to "get good"/perceive yourself as good)... but I'm not in your brain, and no matter how I rephrase this, I always feel like I'm being a condescending annoying guy xD, meaning no offense.

Edit: dead thread rip

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;991478]fills literally within 24 hours of this being said

:wowee:


ty though[/QUOTE]

He jinxed the game into filling. thank you scumbot

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

fills literally within 24 hours of this being said




ty though

He jinxed the game into filling. thank you scumbot

[QUOTE=OzyWho;991468]Is the question subjective in nature? It feels like such.
How much are you willing to accept or what falls under "intellectual curiosity"? I have trouble distinguishing it from "any curiosity", in which case it'd always be present.

I want to address the [i]fostering[/i] side of the topic instead, that part is more interesting to me because it reminds me of something.
You know what is funny? I mean actual "funny" and what that is in our brain? We laugh when something goes not the way our brain expected it to (similarly to when someone's being tickled and their laughter is new brain pathways forming as they learn to defend themselves). This short video explains better than I could anyways: [url]https://youtu.be/ddV6jyDeCKA?si=ZmaIiRxEanqTIBbe[/url]
It's similar to what Martin said in that this "what we find funny" business is centered around our brains learning new ways to predict the world, which isn't much different from saying that our brains crave certainty.
I think we can all intuitively see the connection this has to Mafia in particular, right? Although I can't put it into words.
It's like: someone flipping different alignment than you thought they would gives your brain dopamine, just not so much as to laugh but rather more similar to learning new skill from playing game. [BLACKOUT](I feel like this makes more sense in my brain than on paper? :wondering:)[/BLACKOUT]

Can I ask you guys something? I'd think that in this sort of topic the first thing everyone challenges the question to is themselves: "Is it the case for ME?". Instead I see the posts talking about people in general. Why is that?
Speaking of which, would MM fall my case under "intellectual curiosity"? I seem to have an annual wish for a reality check. I know how bad I am at FM and all that, but once in a while I'm like "I can TOTALLY be good at the game!", so I go in a FM game and get brought right back down to reality. That's my thing. I don't know why I love the realization of "Ohh my god, I suck so much at this!", but I do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯[/QUOTE]

"Intellectual curiosity" is kind of a pleonasm if you agree to take "intellectual" in the broadest meaning possible, but I meant curiosity that is related to actually furthering one's knowledge of the world, as opposed to, say, spying other people, or sticking your tongue in a power outlet to see what it does... I also had philosophy-related topics in mind moreso than "mechanical" topics that are solvable through math, considering math kinda purges the "I'm asking myself an important question and I do not know the answer" to leave only a method to follow and not too bothersome questions such as "what is the value of this variable". I don't think such questions make anyone feel the discomfort of simple ignorance lol - but perhaps I am wrong, and more math-oriented people will show it, who knows.

My interest was about people in general, although general conclusions are absolutely liable to be applied to particular cases. I don't think individualizing it has much value outside of a very personal approach (which is perfectly fine, but doesn't further everyone's knowledge).

Also, we already kinda talked a bit on discord lol but I don't understand the "speaking of which, would MM fall my case..." part. I looked up "fall" in the dictionary just in case, and found nothing. Perhaps I'm blind or it's some kind of language barrier o.O

Originally Posted by OzyWho

Is the question subjective in nature? It feels like such.
How much are you willing to accept or what falls under "intellectual curiosity"? I have trouble distinguishing it from "any curiosity", in which case it'd always be present.

I want to address the fostering side of the topic instead, that part is more interesting to me because it reminds me of something.
You know what is funny? I mean actual "funny" and what that is in our brain? We laugh when something goes not the way our brain expected it to (similarly to when someone's being tickled and their laughter is new brain pathways forming as they learn to defend themselves). This short video explains better than I could anyways: https://youtu.be/ddV6jyDeCKA?si=ZmaIiRxEanqTIBbe
It's similar to what Martin said in that this "what we find funny" business is centered around our brains learning new ways to predict the world, which isn't much different from saying that our brains crave certainty.
I think we can all intuitively see the connection this has to Mafia in particular, right? Although I can't put it into words.
It's like: someone flipping different alignment than you thought they would gives your brain dopamine, just not so much as to laugh but rather more similar to learning new skill from playing game. (I feel like this makes more sense in my brain than on paper? )

Can I ask you guys something? I'd think that in this sort of topic the first thing everyone challenges the question to is themselves: "Is it the case for ME?". Instead I see the posts talking about people in general. Why is that?
Speaking of which, would MM fall my case under "intellectual curiosity"? I seem to have an annual wish for a reality check. I know how bad I am at FM and all that, but once in a while I'm like "I can TOTALLY be good at the game!", so I go in a FM game and get brought right back down to reality. That's my thing. I don't know why I love the realization of "Ohh my god, I suck so much at this!", but I do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"Intellectual curiosity" is kind of a pleonasm if you agree to take "intellectual" in the broadest meaning possible, but I meant curiosity that is related to actually furthering one's knowledge of the world, as opposed to, say, spying other people, or sticking your tongue in a power outlet to see what it does... I also had philosophy-related topics in mind moreso than "mechanical" topics that are solvable through math, considering math kinda purges the "I'm asking myself an important question and I do not know the answer" to leave only a method to follow and not too bothersome questions such as "what is the value of this variable". I don't think such questions make anyone feel the discomfort of simple ignorance lol - but perhaps I am wrong, and more math-oriented people will show it, who knows.

My interest was about people in general, although general conclusions are absolutely liable to be applied to particular cases. I don't think individualizing it has much value outside of a very personal approach (which is perfectly fine, but doesn't further everyone's knowledge).

Also, we already kinda talked a bit on discord lol but I don't understand the "speaking of which, would MM fall my case..." part. I looked up "fall" in the dictionary just in case, and found nothing. Perhaps I'm blind or it's some kind of language barrier o.O

[QUOTE=scumbot5679;991470]ofc Frinckles is perfect![/QUOTE]

lol that also went through my mind when I read baker's post

Originally Posted by scumbot5679

ofc Frinckles is perfect!

lol that also went through my mind when I read baker's post

It seems my intent has been misunderstood. My point is not to debate about this specific guy (who is an online friend who literally spams me to get Halo lol so he DEFINETLY isn't "not an internet person" btw lol), nor was it about forcing people to play FM; I don't have an FM dungeon to lock people in just [I]yet[/I] xD. My example was there just to make my thought process apparent. I am well aware that this specific person can just not like mafia-like games and that's very much fine lol, and I'm probably never going to talk about it again with him... at least until that FM dungeon is ready : ]
That said, your reply is a very nice one, baker. You're cool :P

I rather wanted to analyze the correlation between "intellectual curiosity", understood very broadly as the desire to uncover truths, and the taste for Mafia, along with how Mafia influences intellectual curiosity when it is consistently played. I notice Martin said "whether it be for fun or actual intelectual challenge". I find those two elements go hand in hand, and wonder what other fun could be found in the game; of course, there's the social aspect that's also fun, but it seems to me that if you don't like the concept of stabbing your friends in the back, you'd rather just go play less evil social games, or even do other social activities if you're not much of a game person (apparently that exists...!). As for the pure trolling aspect, few people actually play the game on the long term with this in mind. This leaves us with intellectual curiosity as a core requirement for enjoying the game IMO.

And by the way, I am not trying to say Mafia players are inherently intellectually superior to other people: that would be extremely silly lol.

It seems my intent has been misunderstood. My point is not to debate about this specific guy (who is an online friend who literally spams me to get Halo lol so he DEFINETLY isn't "not an internet person" btw lol), nor was it about forcing people to play FM; I don't have an FM dungeon to lock people in just yet xD. My example was there just to make my thought process apparent. I am well aware that this specific person can just not like mafia-like games and that's very much fine lol, and I'm probably never going to talk about it again with him... at least until that FM dungeon is ready : ]
That said, your reply is a very nice one, baker. You're cool :P

I rather wanted to analyze the correlation between "intellectual curiosity", understood very broadly as the desire to uncover truths, and the taste for Mafia, along with how Mafia influences intellectual curiosity when it is consistently played. I notice Martin said "whether it be for fun or actual intelectual challenge". I find those two elements go hand in hand, and wonder what other fun could be found in the game; of course, there's the social aspect that's also fun, but it seems to me that if you don't like the concept of stabbing your friends in the back, you'd rather just go play less evil social games, or even do other social activities if you're not much of a game person (apparently that exists...!). As for the pure trolling aspect, few people actually play the game on the long term with this in mind. This leaves us with intellectual curiosity as a core requirement for enjoying the game IMO.

And by the way, I am not trying to say Mafia players are inherently intellectually superior to other people: that would be extremely silly lol.

This question was sparked by a friend I have invited to play, and who said he did not like Mafia because he "doesn't like not knowing things". He then said he would also prefer RTS games without fog of war, since "not knowing things is very annoying". I then told him he must find life very annoying, since there are so many things one does not and cannot know, to which he replied "no, because I find out the things that I need to know", giving practical examples such as "where have I put my phone" or "what were our sales figures last month". Any questions of a more... existential nature did not seem to interest him - and this is not because he is not clever! He just doesn't care, and that seems to be specifically [I]because he dislikes the state of simple ignorance, understood as the state of awareness of one's lack of knowledge on a specific matter.[/I] This exact distaste also was the cause of his distaste for Mafia (and Among Us, etc.).

Therefore, considering there is a common cause for disinterest in what I will broadly call "philosophy" and in Mafia, I wonder how much this filters who comes to play Mafia - and especially Forum Mafia, since it is the deepest and most accomplished form of the game - and stays to enjoy it. My hypothesis is that it does quite a lot. I also notice that most players on many sites seem to have at least some form of intellectual background (often associated with social class), moreso than your average person you would meet on the street, which could indicate that there is an significant filtering process going on.

Furthermore, and although I am aware this stretches beyond the range of my initial reasoning, could playing Mafia - and, again, especially FM - foster intellectual curiosity by forcing its practice?

This question was sparked by a friend I have invited to play, and who said he did not like Mafia because he "doesn't like not knowing things". He then said he would also prefer RTS games without fog of war, since "not knowing things is very annoying". I then told him he must find life very annoying, since there are so many things one does not and cannot know, to which he replied "no, because I find out the things that I need to know", giving practical examples such as "where have I put my phone" or "what were our sales figures last month". Any questions of a more... existential nature did not seem to interest him - and this is not because he is not clever! He just doesn't care, and that seems to be specifically because he dislikes the state of simple ignorance, understood as the state of awareness of one's lack of knowledge on a specific matter. This exact distaste also was the cause of his distaste for Mafia (and Among Us, etc.).

Therefore, considering there is a common cause for disinterest in what I will broadly call "philosophy" and in Mafia, I wonder how much this filters who comes to play Mafia - and especially Forum Mafia, since it is the deepest and most accomplished form of the game - and stays to enjoy it. My hypothesis is that it does quite a lot. I also notice that most players on many sites seem to have at least some form of intellectual background (often associated with social class), moreso than your average person you would meet on the street, which could indicate that there is an significant filtering process going on.

Furthermore, and although I am aware this stretches beyond the range of my initial reasoning, could playing Mafia - and, again, especially FM - foster intellectual curiosity by forcing its practice?

[QUOTE=Vittae;991448]/reserve

Might switch to a /in at some point but not sure on my availability.[/QUOTE]

:O hype! Really enjoyed playing with you last time :)

Originally Posted by Vittae

/reserve

Might switch to a /in at some point but not sure on my availability.

hype! Really enjoyed playing with you last time

/sign

My activity levels are still TBD, but I'll definetly be able to play at least acceptably, so just signing right away

/sign

My activity levels are still TBD, but I'll definetly be able to play at least acceptably, so just signing right away

[QUOTE=Stellaria;991427]this is my best game :)

now nobody will ever trust me again lol[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Die. Get lynched D1 every game.
:you:

Well done :P

Originally Posted by Stellaria

this is my best game

now nobody will ever trust me again lol

Exactly. Die. Get lynched D1 every game.


Well done :P

Also, since Mac hasn't showed up yet and no votes have been placed, I see no issue with doing [vote]Macdougall[/vote]

Don't hammer too early, just want to show the pressure concretly

Also, since Mac hasn't showed up yet and no votes have been placed, I see no issue with doing

-vote Macdougall

Don't hammer too early, just want to show the pressure concretly

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;991153]It'd be a funny outcome to see mac flip green and the game finishes because he is an actress[/QUOTE]
It's likely lol
[QUOTE=ikarusdk;991146]Dows anyone have an argument as to why stellaria is scum?

I personally am agisnt the idea. Pod was pretty much the only one that was antagonising stellaria for unnecessarily asking about banana hybrid, if we don't count MM and stellaria arguing with each other. Banana himself mentioned that he thinks stellaria is 100% town[/QUOTE]

If Mac flips town (or rather if the game doesn't end, since actress lol), I'll look again to make sure about Stellaria, but I'm fairly confident they're town. It also feels like they've picked up on the game in a solvy manner after the slightly heated incidents of the earlier days, which makes sense, considering the fact earlier behavior really seemed to be caused by having trouble with any kind of pressure.

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

It'd be a funny outcome to see mac flip green and the game finishes because he is an actress

It's likely lol

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

Dows anyone have an argument as to why stellaria is scum?

I personally am agisnt the idea. Pod was pretty much the only one that was antagonising stellaria for unnecessarily asking about banana hybrid, if we don't count MM and stellaria arguing with each other. Banana himself mentioned that he thinks stellaria is 100% town

If Mac flips town (or rather if the game doesn't end, since actress lol), I'll look again to make sure about Stellaria, but I'm fairly confident they're town. It also feels like they've picked up on the game in a solvy manner after the slightly heated incidents of the earlier days, which makes sense, considering the fact earlier behavior really seemed to be caused by having trouble with any kind of pressure.

[QUOTE=Stellaria;991129][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/qCr9enr.png[/IMG]


DID EVERYONE ELSE KNOW THIS WAS A BUTTON????[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Stellaria;991130]bro I thought it was so fuckin annoying having to go through to page whatever the fuck just to find a way to iso martin lmfaooo we have technology!!![/QUOTE]

XD

Yes, we have technology, thanks to @djar who developed that ^^ we also have a vote history tool! It's relatively recent, though, because in my day too, we had no mastery of such dark arts.

Originally Posted by Stellaria

DID EVERYONE ELSE KNOW THIS WAS A BUTTON????

Originally Posted by Stellaria

bro I thought it was so fuckin annoying having to go through to page whatever the fuck just to find a way to iso martin lmfaooo we have technology!!!

XD

Yes, we have technology, thanks to @djar who developed that ^^ we also have a vote history tool! It's relatively recent, though, because in my day too, we had no mastery of such dark arts.

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;991124]If only mac was here to explain his day 4. Because that just fucked my world view of him.[/QUOTE]

We're definetly waiting for Mac, at least for a reasonable time (a full IRL day). But unless he makes a REALLY convincing case for himself (and shows a plausible alternative world to him being last scum), he just dies here, and that's probably GG.

But yes Wisp, if Mac does flip town, that's gonna be a pretty damn hard one, and we will definetly have to think harder.

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

If only mac was here to explain his day 4. Because that just fucked my world view of him.

We're definetly waiting for Mac, at least for a reasonable time (a full IRL day). But unless he makes a REALLY convincing case for himself (and shows a plausible alternative world to him being last scum), he just dies here, and that's probably GG.

But yes Wisp, if Mac does flip town, that's gonna be a pretty damn hard one, and we will definetly have to think harder.

[QUOTE=Wiisp;991114]again we are not playing like this, this is how we lose games
there is absolutely no reason to lock lynches to anyone in town!Mac worlds, since MM is still pretty weird tonally
and I still dont particularly understand how they progressed to me being town, so while I dont see why MM would buss, i can't pretend that they still arent wolfy and confusing

the only thing I will agree on is that Stellar is town[/QUOTE]

You're not the only one who can develop "tone reads", Wisp. Deal with it 8)

More seriously (although I was still kinda serious tbh, tone change played a large part), you seem to have magically turned into a disgruntled townie who sees himself being wrongly attacked and who hopes to win this "lost cause of a game", so to speak (even though we're winning, it felt like you were seeing the game that way and felt it was unfair for you). That's a pretty damn big contrast from your previous behavior, which was basically "I'm town, fuck you if you don't believe it, that's on you" and showing no progressions lol. Also, DM flipped lone wolf, so my associative read on you kinda fell apart due to that.

Originally Posted by Wiisp

again we are not playing like this, this is how we lose games
there is absolutely no reason to lock lynches to anyone in town!Mac worlds, since MM is still pretty weird tonally
and I still dont particularly understand how they progressed to me being town, so while I dont see why MM would buss, i can't pretend that they still arent wolfy and confusing

the only thing I will agree on is that Stellar is town

You're not the only one who can develop "tone reads", Wisp. Deal with it

More seriously (although I was still kinda serious tbh, tone change played a large part), you seem to have magically turned into a disgruntled townie who sees himself being wrongly attacked and who hopes to win this "lost cause of a game", so to speak (even though we're winning, it felt like you were seeing the game that way and felt it was unfair for you). That's a pretty damn big contrast from your previous behavior, which was basically "I'm town, fuck you if you don't believe it, that's on you" and showing no progressions lol. Also, DM flipped lone wolf, so my associative read on you kinda fell apart due to that.

[QUOTE=Stellaria;991092]I remember End of Day yesterday feeling really empty. So instincts tell me scum were already resolved to bussing Arrow? I dunno. I'll have to look at who voted[/QUOTE]

Mac pretty much ended his contribution of the day with this:

[QUOTE=macdougall;990960]Nah you know what fuck it, I'm Mac and I don't play that.

[VOTE]ikarusdk[/VOTE]

Let's dance homie.[/QUOTE]

and saying he suspected Arrow was town

I was going to say he was probably hoping to save Arrow by getting Wisp lynched first, but it could also be genuine, and I'm realizing this basically means nothing because you can see it both ways with pretty much equal probability

Originally Posted by Stellaria

I remember End of Day yesterday feeling really empty. So instincts tell me scum were already resolved to bussing Arrow? I dunno. I'll have to look at who voted

Mac pretty much ended his contribution of the day with this:

Originally Posted by macdougall

Nah you know what fuck it, I'm Mac and I don't play that.

-vote ikarusdk

Let's dance homie.

and saying he suspected Arrow was town

I was going to say he was probably hoping to save Arrow by getting Wisp lynched first, but it could also be genuine, and I'm realizing this basically means nothing because you can see it both ways with pretty much equal probability

[QUOTE=Stellaria;991079]Kill Order

Martin - why was he killed?

Loldebite - The flip we just got for Arrow confirms there's an Actress in this game (and is the last mafia), so Mafia probably sniped Deb night 1. Which makes me wonder; could the last Mafia (or any of them) have felt threatened by Deb day1? Gonna have to look into that

Powerofdeath - Powerofdeath over Ultra here is strange. At this point, Ultra was mod-confirmed, so one would think it'd make sense to just target Ultra to leave Powerofdeath as a potential miselim in the future. But I don't think this is the case. I think that if there were any scum among the three ghosts, it would've just been one of them, and Dark Magician had been eliminated the day before. Maybe they were thinking that this made Powerofdeath look really legit. But still weird to kill Ultra over PoD because of the mech clear from Martin. Maybe they also thought there was a healer or something so decided to dodge the obvious choice? Probably not. So maybe it's just because PoD was a power role? This is the simplest explanation I think so I'll stick with it.

Ultra - town mech clear, I think this was the obvious choice[/QUOTE]

I think the idea behind the POD kill was to remove the dead from the game as soon as possible; he was unlikely to be lynched anyway, considering he was a PR. That said, I still feel like killing Ultra then would have been the better choice, since there would have been wasted town discussion on PoD, but eh, it's not illogical enough to be impossible.

As for the Martin kill... idk, fearkill, perhaps? Or perhaps scum thought his "post-death mechanics" claim was a bait to avoid getting killed? Tbh, fearkill makes the most sense imo (and not killing someone for having post-death stuff, because that just... enables post-death stuff).


About looking for clues regarding votes on Arrow: Arrow was literally never voted before yesterday, except by Debbie on D1. Not much to be seen there. Scum were definetly happy with the LHF mislynches on D1 and D2, and either participated hard on them or just let it happen. I suspect the Banana lynch had more scum intervention than the Kuti one, considering scum didn't have to commit to the Kuti mislynch to see it happen (which doesn't help us terribly, tbh, since both Wisp and Mac were on it).


Looking at the rest, I'm actually pretty confident it's Mac now. I was way too tired when I posted at last EoD and should just have went to sleep without checking in here, because I was just saying nonsense XD. Wisp feels very towny now (which is a huge contrast to early game), while Mac just feels like he's disappeared, hoping not to make his situation worse and to let town impale itself on wrong suspicions towards other people. He's pretty much the only one not to have contributed ANYTHING and not to have showed a single ounce of solviness towards the lategame, while everyone was going in posting detailed hypotheses and all.

If Mac flips town, I will be quite surprised and lost, tbh.

Originally Posted by Stellaria

Kill Order

Martin - why was he killed?

Loldebite - The flip we just got for Arrow confirms there's an Actress in this game (and is the last mafia), so Mafia probably sniped Deb night 1. Which makes me wonder; could the last Mafia (or any of them) have felt threatened by Deb day1? Gonna have to look into that

Powerofdeath - Powerofdeath over Ultra here is strange. At this point, Ultra was mod-confirmed, so one would think it'd make sense to just target Ultra to leave Powerofdeath as a potential miselim in the future. But I don't think this is the case. I think that if there were any scum among the three ghosts, it would've just been one of them, and Dark Magician had been eliminated the day before. Maybe they were thinking that this made Powerofdeath look really legit. But still weird to kill Ultra over PoD because of the mech clear from Martin. Maybe they also thought there was a healer or something so decided to dodge the obvious choice? Probably not. So maybe it's just because PoD was a power role? This is the simplest explanation I think so I'll stick with it.

Ultra - town mech clear, I think this was the obvious choice

I think the idea behind the POD kill was to remove the dead from the game as soon as possible; he was unlikely to be lynched anyway, considering he was a PR. That said, I still feel like killing Ultra then would have been the better choice, since there would have been wasted town discussion on PoD, but eh, it's not illogical enough to be impossible.

As for the Martin kill... idk, fearkill, perhaps? Or perhaps scum thought his "post-death mechanics" claim was a bait to avoid getting killed? Tbh, fearkill makes the most sense imo (and not killing someone for having post-death stuff, because that just... enables post-death stuff).


About looking for clues regarding votes on Arrow: Arrow was literally never voted before yesterday, except by Debbie on D1. Not much to be seen there. Scum were definetly happy with the LHF mislynches on D1 and D2, and either participated hard on them or just let it happen. I suspect the Banana lynch had more scum intervention than the Kuti one, considering scum didn't have to commit to the Kuti mislynch to see it happen (which doesn't help us terribly, tbh, since both Wisp and Mac were on it).


Looking at the rest, I'm actually pretty confident it's Mac now. I was way too tired when I posted at last EoD and should just have went to sleep without checking in here, because I was just saying nonsense XD. Wisp feels very towny now (which is a huge contrast to early game), while Mac just feels like he's disappeared, hoping not to make his situation worse and to let town impale itself on wrong suspicions towards other people. He's pretty much the only one not to have contributed ANYTHING and not to have showed a single ounce of solviness towards the lategame, while everyone was going in posting detailed hypotheses and all.

If Mac flips town, I will be quite surprised and lost, tbh.

Achro was fully telling the truth in every possible way and won through just being a cool guy. That is very satisfying and very wholesome ♥

Achro was fully telling the truth in every possible way and won through just being a cool guy. That is very satisfying and very wholesome ♥

And now I can't think straight and just want to flip flop because I have conflicting thoughts lol so I'm off to bed. Won't hate you if you lynch Wisp instead of Arrow, just think it's probably a mislynch and that we should avoid it

and yes, literally just achro speaking his mind in a very simple manner convinced me xD

And now I can't think straight and just want to flip flop because I have conflicting thoughts lol so I'm off to bed. Won't hate you if you lynch Wisp instead of Arrow, just think it's probably a mislynch and that we should avoid it

and yes, literally just achro speaking his mind in a very simple manner convinced me xD

[QUOTE=Achro;991062]Btw. A freebie and a sincere one. I taught wisp how to play wolf. He is town here for sure.[/QUOTE]

[vote]Arrow[/vote]

I don't know, it just feels wrong to lynch Wisp here tbh, ikarus. I get your reasoning that keeping Achro around if he's basically town's additional vote is neat, but casually murdering Wisp, who's very likely town, isn't going to help us much. I was half wondering if I was just overly wary of my own past confirmation bias on Wisp, but I honestly just want to follow Achro on this one, as silly as following the random neutral is lol. Wisp seems to have played poorly this game (won't hide it, considering arguing for mislynches and mysteriously avoiding DM while providing no progression is [I]not pro-town[/I], no matter how much you say you don't owe town anything lol), but is probably just town. I don't think I had seen that kind of town!Wisp before, though, hence I'm a little surprised, but it makes more sense than scum wisp now

Also Achro, to answer your question, I just think that since Ikarus and Stellaria are very probably both town and I accept to lose to a world in which they're scum, the lynch order doesn't actually matter all that much, and keeping you around wasn't terribly harmful. Considering how terrible I feel about the Wisp lynch now, though (even though I pushed for it for so long lol), I'm inclined to just go with you here.

Also, I'm probably going to be asleep at EOD, so I probably won't come back until tomorrow. And besides, I'm pretty sure we're always lynch Arrow no matter what if the game doesn't end before we reach that point, so it's not like it's a big deal lol.

Originally Posted by Achro

Btw. A freebie and a sincere one. I taught wisp how to play wolf. He is town here for sure.

-vote Arrow

I don't know, it just feels wrong to lynch Wisp here tbh, ikarus. I get your reasoning that keeping Achro around if he's basically town's additional vote is neat, but casually murdering Wisp, who's very likely town, isn't going to help us much. I was half wondering if I was just overly wary of my own past confirmation bias on Wisp, but I honestly just want to follow Achro on this one, as silly as following the random neutral is lol. Wisp seems to have played poorly this game (won't hide it, considering arguing for mislynches and mysteriously avoiding DM while providing no progression is not pro-town, no matter how much you say you don't owe town anything lol), but is probably just town. I don't think I had seen that kind of town!Wisp before, though, hence I'm a little surprised, but it makes more sense than scum wisp now

Also Achro, to answer your question, I just think that since Ikarus and Stellaria are very probably both town and I accept to lose to a world in which they're scum, the lynch order doesn't actually matter all that much, and keeping you around wasn't terribly harmful. Considering how terrible I feel about the Wisp lynch now, though (even though I pushed for it for so long lol), I'm inclined to just go with you here.

Also, I'm probably going to be asleep at EOD, so I probably won't come back until tomorrow. And besides, I'm pretty sure we're always lynch Arrow no matter what if the game doesn't end before we reach that point, so it's not like it's a big deal lol.

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;991052]Yeah,

I don't think lynching Wiisp will result in a mislynch, but in case we are wrong, imo the team will be arrow/mac.
Wiisp had a very different worldview with the rest of us so it could've been that I did not see eye to eye with T!Wiisp.
But I'm going with my guts and say the mafia team are wiisp+arrow/mac.

If you think arrow is the scummiest (i disagree on this one, arrow hasn't really been posting to determine that reading, because arrow did post things about ika/mm team and i could buy that from another person's view) we could lynch arrow tomorrow.

If I lose the game for town because it was stellaria/mm all along, then I'm to blame here. I'm not playing mafia for the rest of the year lol. Both MM and Stellaria have been very agreeable so I don't know if you guys were simply fine with me pushing for lynching townies. But without an actual help from our mech cleared town Ultra, and mac who has been on and off for like an hour for each day... i don't know I have been the right person to be leading the lynches.

Shit.. thinking back.

Banana < ika first vote
Kuti < ika led
Dm < ika led
Wiisp < ika led... sigh

Oh well. If I am wrong, blame my lack of proper exp. I wish martin and debs were alive to criticize my thinking.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, for the record: if someone thinks this line of thinking comes from scum, I slap them up to Alpha Centauri

[SIZE=1]And if Ikarus is scum, I slap them outside of the bloody universe after the game xD[/SIZE]


As for Stellaria, I think I can accept townreading them and losing to them if they are scum, so IN THEORY we should be good lol. I've been thinking back on the way they handled DM, and I just don't see scum knowing there's a lost wolf casually pointing out "Hey, he's talking about 'group scum', isn't that really weird?" in the carefree manner they had.

Looking at Wisp's recent posts though, I feel like that's a town flip, albeit a probably necessary one :(
(And it's not like he helped himself either)

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

Yeah,

I don't think lynching Wiisp will result in a mislynch, but in case we are wrong, imo the team will be arrow/mac.
Wiisp had a very different worldview with the rest of us so it could've been that I did not see eye to eye with T!Wiisp.
But I'm going with my guts and say the mafia team are wiisp+arrow/mac.

If you think arrow is the scummiest (i disagree on this one, arrow hasn't really been posting to determine that reading, because arrow did post things about ika/mm team and i could buy that from another person's view) we could lynch arrow tomorrow.

If I lose the game for town because it was stellaria/mm all along, then I'm to blame here. I'm not playing mafia for the rest of the year lol. Both MM and Stellaria have been very agreeable so I don't know if you guys were simply fine with me pushing for lynching townies. But without an actual help from our mech cleared town Ultra, and mac who has been on and off for like an hour for each day... i don't know I have been the right person to be leading the lynches.

Shit.. thinking back.

Banana < ika first vote
Kuti < ika led
Dm < ika led
Wiisp < ika led... sigh

Oh well. If I am wrong, blame my lack of proper exp. I wish martin and debs were alive to criticize my thinking.

Yeah, for the record: if someone thinks this line of thinking comes from scum, I slap them up to Alpha Centauri

And if Ikarus is scum, I slap them outside of the bloody universe after the game xD


As for Stellaria, I think I can accept townreading them and losing to them if they are scum, so IN THEORY we should be good lol. I've been thinking back on the way they handled DM, and I just don't see scum knowing there's a lost wolf casually pointing out "Hey, he's talking about 'group scum', isn't that really weird?" in the carefree manner they had.

Looking at Wisp's recent posts though, I feel like that's a town flip, albeit a probably necessary one
(And it's not like he helped himself either)

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;991039]Ok this AtE has been unreal and it's all Wiisp's day 4.


As my scenarios worked it out, we could probably risk a mislynch Wiisp today.

1. I believe Stellaria is town
2. I believe MM is town
3. Ultra is mechanically cleared town.

Voting Arrow loses a vote from Achro tomorrow.
Unless mafia team wants to guarantee a loss, they aren't killing me because unless it is Stella/MM team, they will always try to make it ika/MM tomorrow. So Achro is safe and will leave Night 5 or Day 6. Also I assume Mafia won't be dickish enough to cause achro to lose.
Solving Wiisp today basically means mafia team is Arrow/Mac.

I probably won't change my mind about this unless something drastic occurs.[/QUOTE]

Oooo, your point is that Achro actually helps us more than anything? Hm. I guess he indeed doesn't change anything to our number of available mislynches, while he has all advantage to follow town votes with his targets. Hm.

[vote]Wiisp[/vote]

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

Ok this AtE has been unreal and it's all Wiisp's day 4.


As my scenarios worked it out, we could probably risk a mislynch Wiisp today.

1. I believe Stellaria is town
2. I believe MM is town
3. Ultra is mechanically cleared town.

Voting Arrow loses a vote from Achro tomorrow.
Unless mafia team wants to guarantee a loss, they aren't killing me because unless it is Stella/MM team, they will always try to make it ika/MM tomorrow. So Achro is safe and will leave Night 5 or Day 6. Also I assume Mafia won't be dickish enough to cause achro to lose.
Solving Wiisp today basically means mafia team is Arrow/Mac.

I probably won't change my mind about this unless something drastic occurs.

Oooo, your point is that Achro actually helps us more than anything? Hm. I guess he indeed doesn't change anything to our number of available mislynches, while he has all advantage to follow town votes with his targets. Hm.

-vote Wiisp

[QUOTE=Wiisp;991008]No, kill arrow and we talk tmr, that's the optimal plan
Thr vote on me is stupid, your vote on me is even worse cause uve seen my wolf game

There isnt an argument for why I am a wolf except for the fact I don't solve to ur image, but twice now I've been in a game now where town has failed to find wolves, and I'm not motivated enough to br that guy who hunts them down myself, I'd rather play off everyone else. And we finallt caught a wolf who had no tmi, and I'm accused of having tmi

I have haven't had any of these silly reactions thag MM/DK/Arrow have had

You u specifically want to vote outside of thag poe, when it's gaurenteed to contain a wolf, because thinking me and Mac are both wolves is fucking illogical[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Wiisp;991009]Don't insult my mafia game
U act like I didn't already define many wolves teams, so arguing I haven't done anything is silly, and if thays ur arguement anyways you so just kill arrow who has done even less if that's the metric[/QUOTE]

This attitude, while probably stemming from a genuine anger, is not towny, considering you could be angry for being scumread as town or as scum. Besides, you're the one who said earlier that "your job was to lynch wolves, not be towny" or something like that. Well, you have indeed not been towny lol. You can't exactly blame us for not thinking you town when you yourself admit that you don't play towny - [I]and even less so when you lynched Kuti for not playing conventionally.[/I] Honestly, I have a bad feeling about your lynch, just because you now [I]feel like a townie[/I] (that's really just gut tbh) and because my DM/Wisp associative read is pretty much dead. That said, assuming Ikarus and Stellaria are town - which I am kinda ready to assume, tbh -, lynching Arrow/Mac/you just makes us win, considering Ultra is town. I do not see the scum team being BOTH ikarus and stellaria, like, ever, so this seems safe enough.


THAT BEING SAID. If we mislynch two players in a row among those three, we still lose. It still feels like Arrow is the scummiest here - and let's face it, we're never sparing Arrow in LYLO anyway. Thus, I think ousting Arrow right now is the best course of action

[vote]Arrow[/vote]

Originally Posted by Wiisp

No, kill arrow and we talk tmr, that's the optimal plan
Thr vote on me is stupid, your vote on me is even worse cause uve seen my wolf game

There isnt an argument for why I am a wolf except for the fact I don't solve to ur image, but twice now I've been in a game now where town has failed to find wolves, and I'm not motivated enough to br that guy who hunts them down myself, I'd rather play off everyone else. And we finallt caught a wolf who had no tmi, and I'm accused of having tmi

I have haven't had any of these silly reactions thag MM/DK/Arrow have had

You u specifically want to vote outside of thag poe, when it's gaurenteed to contain a wolf, because thinking me and Mac are both wolves is fucking illogical

Originally Posted by Wiisp

Don't insult my mafia game
U act like I didn't already define many wolves teams, so arguing I haven't done anything is silly, and if thays ur arguement anyways you so just kill arrow who has done even less if that's the metric

This attitude, while probably stemming from a genuine anger, is not towny, considering you could be angry for being scumread as town or as scum. Besides, you're the one who said earlier that "your job was to lynch wolves, not be towny" or something like that. Well, you have indeed not been towny lol. You can't exactly blame us for not thinking you town when you yourself admit that you don't play towny - and even less so when you lynched Kuti for not playing conventionally. Honestly, I have a bad feeling about your lynch, just because you now feel like a townie (that's really just gut tbh) and because my DM/Wisp associative read is pretty much dead. That said, assuming Ikarus and Stellaria are town - which I am kinda ready to assume, tbh -, lynching Arrow/Mac/you just makes us win, considering Ultra is town. I do not see the scum team being BOTH ikarus and stellaria, like, ever, so this seems safe enough.


THAT BEING SAID. If we mislynch two players in a row among those three, we still lose. It still feels like Arrow is the scummiest here - and let's face it, we're never sparing Arrow in LYLO anyway. Thus, I think ousting Arrow right now is the best course of action

-vote Arrow

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;990967]If anything, the bit about 'Arrow probably flip town' - sounds very TMIy[/QUOTE]

If he cannot properly justify it, I agree, and feel like it's a bad omen lol

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

If anything, the bit about 'Arrow probably flip town' - sounds very TMIy

If he cannot properly justify it, I agree, and feel like it's a bad omen lol

[QUOTE=macdougall;990958]I can already see that Arrow is going to die today and I really doubt anything is going to happen to prevent it. I don't have a problem with it. So I haven't got much else to say.

I think if I squint hard enough I can see a world where Ika has snowed me because I don't really think Wisp has been that wolfy and I usually find Wisp as mafia is wolfy and stays wolfy.

Stellaria I would be surprised but not like overwhelmingly so.

Ultra I'm just never touching.

I think what's going to likely happen as much as it sounds weird to say is that Arrow is going to die, and probably flip town and then we'll all go oh wow amazing.

Then we'll probably flip Wisp kicking and screaming tomorrow and lose to MM/Ika lol.[/QUOTE]

Sigh lol. I want to see your town!Arrow world, but I just don't. Thoughts about my case on Arrow?

[QUOTE=Marshmallow Marshall;990677]Long story short: he's very probably scum. I've been thinking this to various extents throughout the entire game, but now I'd say he would need to be very damn convincing for me to townread him at all. My main points against him is that he made lots of "nothingburger" posts early on, talked a bit about mechanics, literally never analyzed ANYONE (unless you count analyzing Kuti as a jester lol) and fits in pretty much any scum team you could ever think of. I'm going to ISO him to refresh my own memory and to make sure I haven't missed anything; take what you will from this.


[SPOILER=Arrow ISO analysis][B]ARROW ISO START[/B]

The first 8 posts are a whole lot of nothing. Hello world, favorite holiday is halloween, wow you were active, valentine's cards (honestly this post did something to me personally lol but it's not game-related, game-wise it's nothing/"fluff"), "STOP POKING ME!", speculating there isnt more than 2-3 neutrals (that's not exactly insightful lol), music, says he got lost in activity.



Self-meta /shrug

"Banana feels like lazy town" - okay, understandable take (I kinda had the same hunch on D1), but then I'm a little surprised he never said [I]anything at all[/I] about him or people pushing him. This post is literally the only occurence of him talking about Banana, apart from this post in reaction to Stellaria's hydra stuff:


Which is terribly weak and strange, considering Banana was literally the D1 lynch. It's not like there was nothing to say, nobody to question, etc.

"Achro is putting in some pressure, which for day 1, seems scummy to me" - That's just a culture clash thing because games in very old days (as in, before I even joined the site) were different and people couldn't care less about D1, so that's NAI

And then he voices a gut townread on Ikarus, which is like, sure.




This post is in reaction to me asking this:



"Achro feels scummy to me"... well okay, thank you very much? Considering I was going back and forth with Achro at the time (or rather, had just finished doing so), there was a lot to say about it, there was matter for analysis. This is almost textually saying "I don't want to analyze".

"PoD may be flying under the radar" - okay, [I]why?[/I] This is really just a "hi, I exist, I did something" post with zero interest in actually solving the game. It's like he only bothered to reply to my questions for the sake of shutting me up XD. If he had lots of solvy posts elsewhere, I could [I]perhaps[/I] see it as just not being warmed up for FM yet, but considering his lack of ANY of those posts, this is scummy as hell.


More posts, just one-liners pointing out some stuff without analyzing anything, giving any reads, or God forbid, push anybody...



I'm just quoting this because it's probably one of the most significant posts of his ISO, which is telling, considering how empty and weak it is.
Calling Achro jestery - I hadn't noticed this before, but it seems he just picked "calling people jesters" as his gimmick to appear to do something lol (cf. calling Kuti jester)


Arrow mistakenly says Martin claimed medium (instead of Banana), /shrug



Progression on Achro from jester to I believe him: nonexistent
Progression on Ikarus: nonexistent, literally just said it was a gut read earlier and there's nothing else about it (note that this looks kinda good for Ikarus, assuming wolf Arrow, since it's unlikely he picked a teammate as his only voiced read)

The rest is just mechanical blah blah again, no solviness, no analysis


One last interesting post:



This is actually the most solvy/analytic post he's ever made... and per normal standards, I'd say this lacks pursuing the goal of actually solving Debbie, like it lacks any form of pressure, further questioning, etc. It's like he doesn't feel the need or desire to gain any new information; this desire is completely absent from his entire ISO.


Overall, Arrow is the incarnation of [URL="https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Information_Instead_of_Analysis"]"information instead of analysis" (IIOA)[/URL] of the low-posting style (which is apparently not mentioned in the mafiascum article lol but still). Town wants to solve the game, to gain information, and that is true for newbies or "bad players" as well, just because that's the very nature of the game. I see NONE of this with Arrow.

Yeah, Arrow is just scum lol.[/SPOILER]

[MENTION=36817]ikarusdk[/MENTION] there we go

Also I just saw this:


Ultra is confirmed town by Martin's ability. No need to waste time on this, he's a living flipped town.[/QUOTE]

Also, even from your perspective, it feels like claiming the scum team is MM/Ikarus is super bold (and unlikely). Do you seriously think page 39's walls and interactions are scum theatre between us? That would be the single best scum theatre ever staged lmao.

Originally Posted by macdougall

I can already see that Arrow is going to die today and I really doubt anything is going to happen to prevent it. I don't have a problem with it. So I haven't got much else to say.

I think if I squint hard enough I can see a world where Ika has snowed me because I don't really think Wisp has been that wolfy and I usually find Wisp as mafia is wolfy and stays wolfy.

Stellaria I would be surprised but not like overwhelmingly so.

Ultra I'm just never touching.

I think what's going to likely happen as much as it sounds weird to say is that Arrow is going to die, and probably flip town and then we'll all go oh wow amazing.

Then we'll probably flip Wisp kicking and screaming tomorrow and lose to MM/Ika lol.

Sigh lol. I want to see your town!Arrow world, but I just don't. Thoughts about my case on Arrow?

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Long story short: he's very probably scum. I've been thinking this to various extents throughout the entire game, but now I'd say he would need to be very damn convincing for me to townread him at all. My main points against him is that he made lots of "nothingburger" posts early on, talked a bit about mechanics, literally never analyzed ANYONE (unless you count analyzing Kuti as a jester lol) and fits in pretty much any scum team you could ever think of. I'm going to ISO him to refresh my own memory and to make sure I haven't missed anything; take what you will from this.

Spoiler : Arrow ISO analysis :

ARROW ISO START

The first 8 posts are a whole lot of nothing. Hello world, favorite holiday is halloween, wow you were active, valentine's cards (honestly this post did something to me personally lol but it's not game-related, game-wise it's nothing/"fluff"), "STOP POKING ME!", speculating there isnt more than 2-3 neutrals (that's not exactly insightful lol), music, says he got lost in activity.



Self-meta /shrug

"Banana feels like lazy town" - okay, understandable take (I kinda had the same hunch on D1), but then I'm a little surprised he never said anything at all about him or people pushing him. This post is literally the only occurence of him talking about Banana, apart from this post in reaction to Stellaria's hydra stuff:


Which is terribly weak and strange, considering Banana was literally the D1 lynch. It's not like there was nothing to say, nobody to question, etc.

"Achro is putting in some pressure, which for day 1, seems scummy to me" - That's just a culture clash thing because games in very old days (as in, before I even joined the site) were different and people couldn't care less about D1, so that's NAI

And then he voices a gut townread on Ikarus, which is like, sure.




This post is in reaction to me asking this:



"Achro feels scummy to me"... well okay, thank you very much? Considering I was going back and forth with Achro at the time (or rather, had just finished doing so), there was a lot to say about it, there was matter for analysis. This is almost textually saying "I don't want to analyze".

"PoD may be flying under the radar" - okay, why? This is really just a "hi, I exist, I did something" post with zero interest in actually solving the game. It's like he only bothered to reply to my questions for the sake of shutting me up XD. If he had lots of solvy posts elsewhere, I could perhaps see it as just not being warmed up for FM yet, but considering his lack of ANY of those posts, this is scummy as hell.


More posts, just one-liners pointing out some stuff without analyzing anything, giving any reads, or God forbid, push anybody...



I'm just quoting this because it's probably one of the most significant posts of his ISO, which is telling, considering how empty and weak it is.
Calling Achro jestery - I hadn't noticed this before, but it seems he just picked "calling people jesters" as his gimmick to appear to do something lol (cf. calling Kuti jester)


Arrow mistakenly says Martin claimed medium (instead of Banana), /shrug



Progression on Achro from jester to I believe him: nonexistent
Progression on Ikarus: nonexistent, literally just said it was a gut read earlier and there's nothing else about it (note that this looks kinda good for Ikarus, assuming wolf Arrow, since it's unlikely he picked a teammate as his only voiced read)

The rest is just mechanical blah blah again, no solviness, no analysis


One last interesting post:



This is actually the most solvy/analytic post he's ever made... and per normal standards, I'd say this lacks pursuing the goal of actually solving Debbie, like it lacks any form of pressure, further questioning, etc. It's like he doesn't feel the need or desire to gain any new information; this desire is completely absent from his entire ISO.


Overall, Arrow is the incarnation of "information instead of analysis" (IIOA) of the low-posting style (which is apparently not mentioned in the mafiascum article lol but still). Town wants to solve the game, to gain information, and that is true for newbies or "bad players" as well, just because that's the very nature of the game. I see NONE of this with Arrow.

Yeah, Arrow is just scum lol.

@ikarusdk there we go

Also I just saw this:


Ultra is confirmed town by Martin's ability. No need to waste time on this, he's a living flipped town.

Also, even from your perspective, it feels like claiming the scum team is MM/Ikarus is super bold (and unlikely). Do you seriously think page 39's walls and interactions are scum theatre between us? That would be the single best scum theatre ever staged lmao.

[QUOTE=Wiisp;990948]Can we not use that word?[/QUOTE]
No harm done lol
[QUOTE=Wiisp;990949]You srent gunna find progression in my town game, sorry[/QUOTE]

Well, that would be a problem - and one that's on you. You could at least explain what was going on in your mind.

Originally Posted by Wiisp

Can we not use that word?

No harm done lol

Originally Posted by Wiisp

You srent gunna find progression in my town game, sorry

Well, that would be a problem - and one that's on you. You could at least explain what was going on in your mind.

About "bold new content": I don't think that's a decline. I think that has always been, and that time operates a selection of the "greatest", leaving us with some "great masterpieces of olden days", while the pile of garbage that was doubtlessly generated in the past falls into oblivion. Before Spengler, Nietzsche was already complaining about the lack of "greatness" around 150 years ago, after all, and since then, humans have set foot on the Moon (not that I'm a huge space exploration partisan due to problems on Earth, but still, it can't be denied that it's a great achievement). Great works do exist. They're just rare, and they have always been.

That said, at risk of "name-dropping" authors lol, I do think Tocqueville has a point when he says democracy tends to reduce the propension to [I]great works[/I], due to everyone looking to forward their own interests. It could even be said that the moon landing (and the multiple Sovietic space achievements before that) were made possible by the fact the people did not hold that much power in the end in either the US or the USSR, and that the space race was very much akin to pharoahs building pyramids to show their power...

There is resistance against this, though. There are plenty of people, including among the "standard people" (i.e. not the ruling class), who would be perfectly ready to spend money to make space exploration possible. Great projects still exist. As for the long list of issues you have written, it's a bunch of things people want to fix - and fixing these is, in itself, a great project. A civilization is not only its leaders, but also its people and its values, and I don't see these as "dead". The main source of decline I would see there would be political apathy, which is admittedly rampant, but I would argue it cannot last: when you don't care about politics, politics still care about you, and this is going to blow in people's faces at some point...

About "bold new content": I don't think that's a decline. I think that has always been, and that time operates a selection of the "greatest", leaving us with some "great masterpieces of olden days", while the pile of garbage that was doubtlessly generated in the past falls into oblivion. Before Spengler, Nietzsche was already complaining about the lack of "greatness" around 150 years ago, after all, and since then, humans have set foot on the Moon (not that I'm a huge space exploration partisan due to problems on Earth, but still, it can't be denied that it's a great achievement). Great works do exist. They're just rare, and they have always been.

That said, at risk of "name-dropping" authors lol, I do think Tocqueville has a point when he says democracy tends to reduce the propension to great works, due to everyone looking to forward their own interests. It could even be said that the moon landing (and the multiple Sovietic space achievements before that) were made possible by the fact the people did not hold that much power in the end in either the US or the USSR, and that the space race was very much akin to pharoahs building pyramids to show their power...

There is resistance against this, though. There are plenty of people, including among the "standard people" (i.e. not the ruling class), who would be perfectly ready to spend money to make space exploration possible. Great projects still exist. As for the long list of issues you have written, it's a bunch of things people want to fix - and fixing these is, in itself, a great project. A civilization is not only its leaders, but also its people and its values, and I don't see these as "dead". The main source of decline I would see there would be political apathy, which is admittedly rampant, but I would argue it cannot last: when you don't care about politics, politics still care about you, and this is going to blow in people's faces at some point...

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;990942]Also, leaving this in case I am the most retarded person to ever live and MM is mafia

MM frig you[/QUOTE]

xDDD don't you worry, I left a similar message to frinckles in my private channel about you :)

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

Also, leaving this in case I am the most retarded person to ever live and MM is mafia

MM frig you

xDDD don't you worry, I left a similar message to frinckles in my private channel about you

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;990941]I would like to say that Wiisp knew Dm was a wolf. I am suspecting mafia team knew there was a lost wolf based on DMs role card.

I'm gonna say that if it isn't Arrow or wiisp, the other one is mac for reasons only known to my neurons, not my brain atm.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that is the idea that was secretly sprouting in my mind, hence my ping at Mac. I realized that among my townreads, he was my least solid one, really just based on a feeling that I understood how he was thinking, i.e. what was not directly in his posts, but implied by it. I might have just projected a town mindset on his progression that's full of holes lol. Hence, Mac needs to explain what he thinks right now, because I just don't see it at all, it's like he stopped existing post-Kuti lol.

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

I would like to say that Wiisp knew Dm was a wolf. I am suspecting mafia team knew there was a lost wolf based on DMs role card.

I'm gonna say that if it isn't Arrow or wiisp, the other one is mac for reasons only known to my neurons, not my brain atm.

Yeah, that is the idea that was secretly sprouting in my mind, hence my ping at Mac. I realized that among my townreads, he was my least solid one, really just based on a feeling that I understood how he was thinking, i.e. what was not directly in his posts, but implied by it. I might have just projected a town mindset on his progression that's full of holes lol. Hence, Mac needs to explain what he thinks right now, because I just don't see it at all, it's like he stopped existing post-Kuti lol.

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;990935]I'm fine with Arrow n Wiisp

Question is, do we lynch arrow first so achro can leave[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure that's what we want, yes. Having a neutral who can place us in a kingmaker situation is bad imo, and making him win makes everyone happy lol. More importantly, I'm slightly unsure about Wisp and will have to reevaluate him with the knowledge he didn't know DM was scum (not right now because I don't have time, though), be it just to re-read my case on him and see what still holds.

Also, what are the odds Wisp knew there was a lost wolf and was pretty sure DM was said lost wolf, and thus actually acted SvS towards him?

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

I'm fine with Arrow n Wiisp

Question is, do we lynch arrow first so achro can leave

I'm pretty sure that's what we want, yes. Having a neutral who can place us in a kingmaker situation is bad imo, and making him win makes everyone happy lol. More importantly, I'm slightly unsure about Wisp and will have to reevaluate him with the knowledge he didn't know DM was scum (not right now because I don't have time, though), be it just to re-read my case on him and see what still holds.

Also, what are the odds Wisp knew there was a lost wolf and was pretty sure DM was said lost wolf, and thus actually acted SvS towards him?

[MENTION=45380]macdougall[/MENTION] you've basically disappeared lately. What's your world, and why?

@macdougall you've basically disappeared lately. What's your world, and why?

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;990932]Because I was driving when I saw pod flip, I was asking myself a bunch of questions as to why pod was nkd and janitored.

And I came up with a list of whys in the order of likelihood.

I'm on a phone since my pc is buggered so sorry for the format and errors. This is going to be full of speculation and narratives.

1. The remaining wolves still want to lynch ika/MM
2. There was miscommunication between mafia members
3. Somehow both the nk and janitor were misdirected.

1. I'll start by saying that when someone says something that is noticeably wrong, or repeats an obvious statement, other people tend to think harder/starts to question about the subject.

Now with that being said.

Post 2141 by Wiisp.

Voting with Achro. This releases Wiisp from the responsibility of solving. This also makes the player immune from being fos 'd for being wrong. And/or if Arrow is the teammate, this makes it so it does not look like a bus. A random wagon vote.
Reinforcing the fact DM is a lost wolf (which wiisp also mentions in post 2150). We by now know DM is a lost wolf. But wiisp mentions this because it adds to what he/she wants to achieve next. By falsely claiming MM is towncleared from carol, this ensures that the town thinks twice about MM being town (stellaria noticed the fallacy and argued MM isnt towncleared). Because DM is a lost wolf, W!MM could've still pushed DM without realising he would flip red. I could go into details about how it would've played had DM flipped green but since Wiisp is playing it accordingly after the red flip, I won't get into it. This all makes MM still a valid target to be lynched, because he has had the most number of fingers pointing at him than anyonr else anyway. Wiisp would've argued about this till MM flips green. One mislynch. One more to go. So the question is, how does that tie me? Wiisp wants to bring ika faking the carol into light once more in case MM does not gain the traction. I, ika, am not all mech cleared. DM was a lost wolf so W!ika could've gotten lucky (oh hey! How well the narrative fits!). Notice wiisp says exactly this in post 2150. Also all Wiisp has ever said about me was, ika has some scummy posts, ika pings me, I don't like their posts etc, but has never really gone into detail why and how my slot is suspicious to Wiisp. Similar to DM.

No other players were discussing about PoD aside from MM and I, although neither of us really doubed the fact pod was a medium. Maybe actual wolves wanted to frame us because we were discussing him? I have no clue. This kill is puzzling at best, not even mentioning the follow up sanitation. Anyway, this is what I think Wiisp and her teammate wanted to achieve, because they did not learn anything from when DM tried to shade me.

2. Maybe mafia mates didn't communicate well and janitor was forced to sanitize pod. Unlikely.

3. I'm assuming the redirector can only redirect one player to a target so I'm guessing this is even more unlikely.[/QUOTE]
Intentionally making obvious mistakes to bring something to people's attention? Ngl, it feels like this is a conspiracy theory lol, independently from Wisp's alignment. The most likely scenario that comes to mind is that Wisp, not being town and not needing to actually pay attention to solving, genuinely made that mistake (or he could have made it as town, but that would make him very lazy lol).
[QUOTE=ikarusdk;990933][Vote]Wiisp[/vote]

I'd like to also say, wiisps voting on banana, and the circumstance around it was very opportunistic as well[/QUOTE]

Indeed, Wisp's D1 votes are scummy, and the progression is reaaaally lacking.

That being said, are you saying we should keep Arrow alive for today and lynch Wisp...? Considering Achro exists and considering Arrow is just very likely scum, this doesn't seem optimal. Is there a reason I'm missing?

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

Because I was driving when I saw pod flip, I was asking myself a bunch of questions as to why pod was nkd and janitored.

And I came up with a list of whys in the order of likelihood.

I'm on a phone since my pc is buggered so sorry for the format and errors. This is going to be full of speculation and narratives.

1. The remaining wolves still want to lynch ika/MM
2. There was miscommunication between mafia members
3. Somehow both the nk and janitor were misdirected.

1. I'll start by saying that when someone says something that is noticeably wrong, or repeats an obvious statement, other people tend to think harder/starts to question about the subject.

Now with that being said.

Post 2141 by Wiisp.

Voting with Achro. This releases Wiisp from the responsibility of solving. This also makes the player immune from being fos 'd for being wrong. And/or if Arrow is the teammate, this makes it so it does not look like a bus. A random wagon vote.
Reinforcing the fact DM is a lost wolf (which wiisp also mentions in post 2150). We by now know DM is a lost wolf. But wiisp mentions this because it adds to what he/she wants to achieve next. By falsely claiming MM is towncleared from carol, this ensures that the town thinks twice about MM being town (stellaria noticed the fallacy and argued MM isnt towncleared). Because DM is a lost wolf, W!MM could've still pushed DM without realising he would flip red. I could go into details about how it would've played had DM flipped green but since Wiisp is playing it accordingly after the red flip, I won't get into it. This all makes MM still a valid target to be lynched, because he has had the most number of fingers pointing at him than anyonr else anyway. Wiisp would've argued about this till MM flips green. One mislynch. One more to go. So the question is, how does that tie me? Wiisp wants to bring ika faking the carol into light once more in case MM does not gain the traction. I, ika, am not all mech cleared. DM was a lost wolf so W!ika could've gotten lucky (oh hey! How well the narrative fits!). Notice wiisp says exactly this in post 2150. Also all Wiisp has ever said about me was, ika has some scummy posts, ika pings me, I don't like their posts etc, but has never really gone into detail why and how my slot is suspicious to Wiisp. Similar to DM.

No other players were discussing about PoD aside from MM and I, although neither of us really doubed the fact pod was a medium. Maybe actual wolves wanted to frame us because we were discussing him? I have no clue. This kill is puzzling at best, not even mentioning the follow up sanitation. Anyway, this is what I think Wiisp and her teammate wanted to achieve, because they did not learn anything from when DM tried to shade me.

2. Maybe mafia mates didn't communicate well and janitor was forced to sanitize pod. Unlikely.

3. I'm assuming the redirector can only redirect one player to a target so I'm guessing this is even more unlikely.

Intentionally making obvious mistakes to bring something to people's attention? Ngl, it feels like this is a conspiracy theory lol, independently from Wisp's alignment. The most likely scenario that comes to mind is that Wisp, not being town and not needing to actually pay attention to solving, genuinely made that mistake (or he could have made it as town, but that would make him very lazy lol).

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

-vote Wiisp

I'd like to also say, wiisps voting on banana, and the circumstance around it was very opportunistic as well

Indeed, Wisp's D1 votes are scummy, and the progression is reaaaally lacking.

That being said, are you saying we should keep Arrow alive for today and lynch Wisp...? Considering Achro exists and considering Arrow is just very likely scum, this doesn't seem optimal. Is there a reason I'm missing?

[QUOTE=Stellaria;990910]why PoD and not Ultra[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's an excellent question. I'm also a little surprised to see he was cleaned, and not, say, Debbie, whose role was unknown to all. It's not like we suspected PoD of lying lol: he basically confirmed his role by sending me to be a medium on night 2. Besides, he was being suspected by some people (chiefly Ikarus, I think, who's not getting lynched... so isn't that nonsense?)

Also, I'm baffled to see you actually caught a slip from DM with his "group wolf" stuff. I just don't get what this play was about. Since no scum had died before him, he couldn't join his team's chat through blessing a scum message, so ? ? ? ? what a strange strategy

It does kinda annoy me, though, because my scumread on Wisp was based in great part on a SvS association with DM... the problem is, if he's not scum, who is? That said, I'm pretty confident with Arrow just being scum lol, so that's at least leaving us with only one scum to find, probably.

Originally Posted by Stellaria

why PoD and not Ultra

Yeah, that's an excellent question. I'm also a little surprised to see he was cleaned, and not, say, Debbie, whose role was unknown to all. It's not like we suspected PoD of lying lol: he basically confirmed his role by sending me to be a medium on night 2. Besides, he was being suspected by some people (chiefly Ikarus, I think, who's not getting lynched... so isn't that nonsense?)

Also, I'm baffled to see you actually caught a slip from DM with his "group wolf" stuff. I just don't get what this play was about. Since no scum had died before him, he couldn't join his team's chat through blessing a scum message, so ? ? ? ? what a strange strategy

It does kinda annoy me, though, because my scumread on Wisp was based in great part on a SvS association with DM... the problem is, if he's not scum, who is? That said, I'm pretty confident with Arrow just being scum lol, so that's at least leaving us with only one scum to find, probably.

[QUOTE=Stellaria;990927]I feel the need to bring this up right now. I live in Southern California and we're kind of going through an unexpected hurricane problem right now. Some of my time recently has been spent preparing for the worst. If the power goes out where I live OR if I'm ordered to evacuate, I will request to sub out. Just want to let you all know.[/QUOTE]

Oh no :( good luck to you, hope you don't get in trouble!

Originally Posted by Stellaria

I feel the need to bring this up right now. I live in Southern California and we're kind of going through an unexpected hurricane problem right now. Some of my time recently has been spent preparing for the worst. If the power goes out where I live OR if I'm ordered to evacuate, I will request to sub out. Just want to let you all know.

Oh no good luck to you, hope you don't get in trouble!

[QUOTE=Marshmallow Marshall;990683][SPOILER=wisp iso]Starting an ISO on Wisp that I'm not sure I'll finish, at least not now







Perhaps that's just tunnel vision on my end, but this looks like a very SvS interaction. It's like DM realized he could say something about his teammate without getting himself or his partner in trouble; it's like they're just toying with eachother lol. Even more importantly, DM [I]did not reply to this last post at all.[/I] He straight up ignored it. Now, if DM were actually town, would "ur claim was a meme" satisfy him? Let's say I harbor doubts xD. It really feels like DM wasn't actually worried about Wisp at all, which indicates scum theatre.




When asked to justify progression by Ultra (who is confirmed town). [s]I'm torn between saying the tone feels good and saying it's an easy escape from a difficult question lol. The D1 ISO has a lot of this attitude, and I'm not sure it's natural, but eh. In a vacuum, it's not particularly damning, but probably not towny either.[/s] see next quote



Answer to being told by Ultra that the previous post did not actually answer anything. Now I'm striking through what I wrote above, because that turns the carefree attitude into a suspiciously defensive one. Like, the town "I do w/e I want, and fuck you (kindly)" playstyle/attitude does exist in the world of mafia, but it's not matched by this very down-to-earth, not braggy answer. Scummy.



The saga continues xD. This is the kind of post I would have expected [I]directly after the one saying "I do whatever I want".[/I] Not right after a serious, defensive, but deflective answer. I don't buy it.





What the heck, Kuti was probably actually on the right track and we just failed to heed it lol. Like, they were absolutely seeing what I am now seeing in the earlier parts of the ISO, and Wisp kept not responding with an actual answer


The following three posts are all in immediate succession; they were posted back to back and appear as such in the thread.







"I'd vote DM just for this post"
"It's DM/Mac"
[I]proceeds to fix the misspelled vote on Mac that was placed without an explanation before, the only explanation being "and I know why I'm doing this" in the reply to Kuti quoted above[/I]


Let's see if a DM vote actually ever appeared on D1...




Naked vote with an "explanation" that actually isn't one, replaced 47 posts later by:

.

This is relatively close to EoD. Wisp ended off-wagon with his vote on Kuti. There is no valid progression on DM to explain the switches. Instead, what we have is this:







I've already commented on this being scum theatre-y in a previous post. Like, what gaslighting? And how is DM's claim scummy in a vacuum on D1? And most importantly, [I]how does all of this explain the switch off to Mac, and then to Banana, and finally to Kuti?[/I] The progression simply doesn't add up.


[B]End of Day 1.[/B]






And that's what happens on D2, where Kuti is pretty obviously getting lynched. "I scumread kuti but actually just vote DM because ?"... like, Wisp KNOWS it won't happen, he ADMITS IT lol. This is a perfect opportunity to park a vote on a scummate without risk. And again, progression? Why just move away from DM and Mac to end up on Banana and then Kuti at EoD1 if you actually think DM is the right call and end up going back to it on D2? It could be fine if there were a visible progression, but there absolutely isn't any.


Side note: where the heck does this come from:


DIDN'T YOU ALMOST WANT TO LYNCH HIM NOT LONG AGO XD



I'm stopping here for now, might be enough tbh. I am convinced. Wisp/DM/Arrow it is

[MENTION=45380]macdougall[/MENTION] [MENTION=36817]ikarusdk[/MENTION] [MENTION=46586]Ultra[/MENTION] [MENTION=46461]Stellaria[/MENTION]
I feel like you should read this[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]

I somehow forgot to ping you with this [MENTION=3897]powerofdeath[/MENTION] apparently. As a reply to your last post, considering I'm pretty sure DM flips straight up mafia here: I do think Wisp/DM looks like bussing. See my post I'm quoting above for details. Thoughts?

As for Stellaria, what makes you scumread them?

(I'm going off, but I should come back before EoD)

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Spoiler : wisp iso :

Starting an ISO on Wisp that I'm not sure I'll finish, at least not now







Perhaps that's just tunnel vision on my end, but this looks like a very SvS interaction. It's like DM realized he could say something about his teammate without getting himself or his partner in trouble; it's like they're just toying with eachother lol. Even more importantly, DM did not reply to this last post at all. He straight up ignored it. Now, if DM were actually town, would "ur claim was a meme" satisfy him? Let's say I harbor doubts xD. It really feels like DM wasn't actually worried about Wisp at all, which indicates scum theatre.




When asked to justify progression by Ultra (who is confirmed town). I'm torn between saying the tone feels good and saying it's an easy escape from a difficult question lol. The D1 ISO has a lot of this attitude, and I'm not sure it's natural, but eh. In a vacuum, it's not particularly damning, but probably not towny either. see next quote



Answer to being told by Ultra that the previous post did not actually answer anything. Now I'm striking through what I wrote above, because that turns the carefree attitude into a suspiciously defensive one. Like, the town "I do w/e I want, and fuck you (kindly)" playstyle/attitude does exist in the world of mafia, but it's not matched by this very down-to-earth, not braggy answer. Scummy.



The saga continues xD. This is the kind of post I would have expected directly after the one saying "I do whatever I want". Not right after a serious, defensive, but deflective answer. I don't buy it.





What the heck, Kuti was probably actually on the right track and we just failed to heed it lol. Like, they were absolutely seeing what I am now seeing in the earlier parts of the ISO, and Wisp kept not responding with an actual answer


The following three posts are all in immediate succession; they were posted back to back and appear as such in the thread.







"I'd vote DM just for this post"
"It's DM/Mac"
proceeds to fix the misspelled vote on Mac that was placed without an explanation before, the only explanation being "and I know why I'm doing this" in the reply to Kuti quoted above


Let's see if a DM vote actually ever appeared on D1...




Naked vote with an "explanation" that actually isn't one, replaced 47 posts later by:

.

This is relatively close to EoD. Wisp ended off-wagon with his vote on Kuti. There is no valid progression on DM to explain the switches. Instead, what we have is this:







I've already commented on this being scum theatre-y in a previous post. Like, what gaslighting? And how is DM's claim scummy in a vacuum on D1? And most importantly, how does all of this explain the switch off to Mac, and then to Banana, and finally to Kuti? The progression simply doesn't add up.


End of Day 1.






And that's what happens on D2, where Kuti is pretty obviously getting lynched. "I scumread kuti but actually just vote DM because ?"... like, Wisp KNOWS it won't happen, he ADMITS IT lol. This is a perfect opportunity to park a vote on a scummate without risk. And again, progression? Why just move away from DM and Mac to end up on Banana and then Kuti at EoD1 if you actually think DM is the right call and end up going back to it on D2? It could be fine if there were a visible progression, but there absolutely isn't any.


Side note: where the heck does this come from:


DIDN'T YOU ALMOST WANT TO LYNCH HIM NOT LONG AGO XD



I'm stopping here for now, might be enough tbh. I am convinced. Wisp/DM/Arrow it is

@macdougall @ikarusdk @Ultra @Stellaria
I feel like you should read this

I somehow forgot to ping you with this @powerofdeath apparently. As a reply to your last post, considering I'm pretty sure DM flips straight up mafia here: I do think Wisp/DM looks like bussing. See my post I'm quoting above for details. Thoughts?

As for Stellaria, what makes you scumread them?

(I'm going off, but I should come back before EoD)

[QUOTE=Achro;990881]Kicking rocks I changed my mark from dm last minute ngl[/QUOTE]

That's what you get for targeting me, ye vile fiend xD.

That said, you win as soon as you get another target lynched, right? Targeting Arrow is very safe for you here, considering scum have zero reason to kill you and we don't either, so unless you're a big fat liar somehow and don't actually win like you claimed you do, I'm not terribly worried about you, considering you very probably just win tomorrow :P.

Originally Posted by Achro

Kicking rocks I changed my mark from dm last minute ngl

That's what you get for targeting me, ye vile fiend xD.

That said, you win as soon as you get another target lynched, right? Targeting Arrow is very safe for you here, considering scum have zero reason to kill you and we don't either, so unless you're a big fat liar somehow and don't actually win like you claimed you do, I'm not terribly worried about you, considering you very probably just win tomorrow :P.