Search:

Here is a little explanation topic cause I thought I saw a huge bug today.

So. Classical setup : Jailor with 2 executions, SK kills roleblockers.

Here is what happened ; I was Detective.

[b]Night 1[/b]

I follow #12, who visits #5. No kill, no lynch.

[b]Night 2[/b]

I follow #12 again (#5 pmed me that he was jailed, he may have been attacked). He visits #5 again, and gets killed by mafia (only kill), #12 was Escort.

Game goes on, Cult dies, Mafia dies. Only players remaining are #5, #7 (the Jailor), #13, and #14. And at this time I had followed #14 and #13, who both visited targets that weren't killed or attacked.

So we were in a situation where :
- #5 couldn't be SK, since no Jailbreak
- #13 and #14 couldn't be SK, since no attack on their targets (#14 was also jailed without death)
- #7 was the Jailor, he got the GF executed which was quite a good proof.

I thought that there was a Witch, but actually, the solution was a bit weirder :

- The Jailor jailed the SK.
- Then, the Escort blocked the SK, which [b]denied the Jailbreak[/b]. This happened twice.
- On the other hand, being Jailed, the SK was unable to kill the Escort.

When you think about it, the Escort saved the Jailor from the Jailbreak...and the Jailor saved the Escort from a RB-kill. No one was attacked or healed, and the SK got a perfect alibi later in the game.

I wanted to share, because when you are in front of this kind of situation, you really don't know what to think.

Here is a little explanation topic cause I thought I saw a huge bug today.

So. Classical setup : Jailor with 2 executions, SK kills roleblockers.

Here is what happened ; I was Detective.

Night 1

I follow #12, who visits #5. No kill, no lynch.

Night 2

I follow #12 again (#5 pmed me that he was jailed, he may have been attacked). He visits #5 again, and gets killed by mafia (only kill), #12 was Escort.

Game goes on, Cult dies, Mafia dies. Only players remaining are #5, #7 (the Jailor), #13, and #14. And at this time I had followed #14 and #13, who both visited targets that weren't killed or attacked.

So we were in a situation where :
- #5 couldn't be SK, since no Jailbreak
- #13 and #14 couldn't be SK, since no attack on their targets (#14 was also jailed without death)
- #7 was the Jailor, he got the GF executed which was quite a good proof.

I thought that there was a Witch, but actually, the solution was a bit weirder :

- The Jailor jailed the SK.
- Then, the Escort blocked the SK, which denied the Jailbreak. This happened twice.
- On the other hand, being Jailed, the SK was unable to kill the Escort.

When you think about it, the Escort saved the Jailor from the Jailbreak...and the Jailor saved the Escort from a RB-kill. No one was attacked or healed, and the SK got a perfect alibi later in the game.

I wanted to share, because when you are in front of this kind of situation, you really don't know what to think.

[QUOTE=creedkingsx;232701]Why is the MM concept so hard for people to grasp? :|[/QUOTE]

It's not hard, the MM works like a Vet in other people's houses.

But I don't understand why.

If you consider that they don't act at the same time (like 2 Jailors jailing each other).

Let's say MM 1 visits the house of player number 6. What he sees :

- Player 6 (Citizen)
- Player 3 (Doctor)
- Player 12 (Escort)

Then MM 2 visits the same House. What he sees :

- Player 6 (Citizen)
- Player 3 (Doctor)
- Player 12 (Escort)
- MM 1

Why would he spare MM 1 ? Is it by the same kind of rule that makes Lookouts immune to Vet alerts (and that is nowhere to be found) ?
If so, then the rule should be specified somewhere. The "Lookout immune to Vet" made me lose a game once, because I thought the vet was lying (and that I should have been killed if he was telling the truth).

Originally Posted by creedkingsx

Why is the MM concept so hard for people to grasp?

It's not hard, the MM works like a Vet in other people's houses.

But I don't understand why.

If you consider that they don't act at the same time (like 2 Jailors jailing each other).

Let's say MM 1 visits the house of player number 6. What he sees :

- Player 6 (Citizen)
- Player 3 (Doctor)
- Player 12 (Escort)

Then MM 2 visits the same House. What he sees :

- Player 6 (Citizen)
- Player 3 (Doctor)
- Player 12 (Escort)
- MM 1

Why would he spare MM 1 ? Is it by the same kind of rule that makes Lookouts immune to Vet alerts (and that is nowhere to be found) ?
If so, then the rule should be specified somewhere. The "Lookout immune to Vet" made me lose a game once, because I thought the vet was lying (and that I should have been killed if he was telling the truth).

[QUOTE=Ash;232451]Both of the M & Ms in that situation don't die.

M & Ms visit houses, not people. Whoever is in that house dies.[/QUOTE]

But MM targeting vet dies, which means MM visits people. If he visits a house spreed by another vulnerable MM, I guess both die. This needs a trial to be sure.

Originally Posted by Ash

Both of the M & Ms in that situation don't die.

M & Ms visit houses, not people. Whoever is in that house dies.

But MM targeting vet dies, which means MM visits people. If he visits a house spreed by another vulnerable MM, I guess both die. This needs a trial to be sure.

It needs a big freaking sticker in the middle "IF NOTHING HAPPENS TYPE -REPICK, IF YOU SEE A TROLL SETUP APPEARING, TYPE -REPICK"

It needs a big freaking sticker in the middle "IF NOTHING HAPPENS TYPE -REPICK, IF YOU SEE A TROLL SETUP APPEARING, TYPE -REPICK"

[QUOTE=Gzz;230598]Well, you will get gotcha for the OPPOSITE reason : you don' t have enough point for a win[/QUOTE]

Unless you get a lot of early quitters. I noticed it reduces the final score.

But technically, first win at least brings 25 points for the role. Remember that mine was Coroner. A great start in life.

Originally Posted by Gzz

Well, you will get gotcha for the OPPOSITE reason : you don' t have enough point for a win

Unless you get a lot of early quitters. I noticed it reduces the final score.

But technically, first win at least brings 25 points for the role. Remember that mine was Coroner. A great start in life.

[QUOTE=Deantwo;229312]mmh... i hadn't played with [B]Secret Ballot[/B] for a while... and had confused it with [B]Anonymous Ballot[/B]

[B]Secret Ballot[/B] work much like the INNO / GUILTY voting... you can see who tossed a vote in... but what was voted isn't shown till the vote is over... mean you can't just toss a vote... people will know you were the one who voted

[B]Anonymous Ballot[/B] is the one that happen at [URL="https://wiki.sc2mafia.com/en/index.php/Mechanics#Three_Days_of_Peace"](Wiki link) Three Days of Peace[/URL]... no one knows who voted... or who voted who

just wanted to clear it up...[/QUOTE]

Oh, okay then. That's Anonymous Ballot I hate then, not Secret Ballot. Still, Blackmailer should work for every setup picked, especially with the most common one.

Originally Posted by Deantwo

mmh... i hadn't played with Secret Ballot for a while... and had confused it with Anonymous Ballot

Secret Ballot work much like the INNO / GUILTY voting... you can see who tossed a vote in... but what was voted isn't shown till the vote is over... mean you can't just toss a vote... people will know you were the one who voted

Anonymous Ballot is the one that happen at (Wiki link) Three Days of Peace... no one knows who voted... or who voted who

just wanted to clear it up...

Oh, okay then. That's Anonymous Ballot I hate then, not Secret Ballot. Still, Blackmailer should work for every setup picked, especially with the most common one.

[QUOTE=Slaol;228213]There are not many Coroners, but the Janitors cleaning is rather powerful in allowing the Janitor or fellow Mafia to counter claim with anything, and turn the town on the investigator.

Maths. Disguiser can do quite a lot, but having NO benefit from a Mafia role throughout the vast majority of the game is also a drawback. You have to rely on things to go quite well for Mafia to have the Disguiser just flawlessly do that, and if things are going that well you are regularly going to win even if you have 1 GF, and 2 Mafioso. Disguiser is good. But it is too situational, where are Janitor (and maybe even Consig) allows for guaranteed benefit and maximization of gameplay.

Escaping accusation is a hell of a thing. But meh in comparison to the Janitor allowing ALL the Mafia roles to be harder to find- in my opinion. Janitor can also fake to be a Disguiser.

On another note, I once rolled a Mafia of GF, Janitor, Disguiser, Disguiser. Town didn't know jack shit.[/QUOTE]

A good Janitor is really useful, even if the whole "giving an alibi" is not game breaking. It may give a clue to an invest that someone is lying. As for the "guaranteed to be useful", it's only true if A/Target made a lw, B/Target didn't reveal beforehand C/Target wasn't checked by a det/an invest.

Anyway, to come back to the point, Secret Ballot is a way to make the whole game rely on luck and eloquence instead of logics. Depends on what you prefer, but it heavily favors the mafia - not the neutral roles though, because it is really easy to get someone lynched. I prefer the standard trials, where the votes are public. It makes it really harder for an Executioner or a Jester to win, and forces mafia to have a real, solid alibi and to be able to work independently. When using a secret ballot, on a day without any clue, if people don't skip for any reason (conversation for example), you can decide to eliminate a player with a quick, combined vote. And no one will ever know who did it. And you can do it again the next day. And as you say, a Disguiser can even take an important role without being spotted.

And the Blackmailer, as it is, isn't a real Blackmailer, he only is "muting someone", without denying him communications. With the Cooldown, no spam, and the chat becomes that much easier to read. As for the duration...5s isn't that much for a 1.5 min day. With 10s, you can easily vote if it is needed, but you won't rainbow, unless you are very patient, and people are really observant.

Originally Posted by Slaol

There are not many Coroners, but the Janitors cleaning is rather powerful in allowing the Janitor or fellow Mafia to counter claim with anything, and turn the town on the investigator.

Maths. Disguiser can do quite a lot, but having NO benefit from a Mafia role throughout the vast majority of the game is also a drawback. You have to rely on things to go quite well for Mafia to have the Disguiser just flawlessly do that, and if things are going that well you are regularly going to win even if you have 1 GF, and 2 Mafioso. Disguiser is good. But it is too situational, where are Janitor (and maybe even Consig) allows for guaranteed benefit and maximization of gameplay.

Escaping accusation is a hell of a thing. But meh in comparison to the Janitor allowing ALL the Mafia roles to be harder to find- in my opinion. Janitor can also fake to be a Disguiser.

On another note, I once rolled a Mafia of GF, Janitor, Disguiser, Disguiser. Town didn't know jack shit.

A good Janitor is really useful, even if the whole "giving an alibi" is not game breaking. It may give a clue to an invest that someone is lying. As for the "guaranteed to be useful", it's only true if A/Target made a lw, B/Target didn't reveal beforehand C/Target wasn't checked by a det/an invest.

Anyway, to come back to the point, Secret Ballot is a way to make the whole game rely on luck and eloquence instead of logics. Depends on what you prefer, but it heavily favors the mafia - not the neutral roles though, because it is really easy to get someone lynched. I prefer the standard trials, where the votes are public. It makes it really harder for an Executioner or a Jester to win, and forces mafia to have a real, solid alibi and to be able to work independently. When using a secret ballot, on a day without any clue, if people don't skip for any reason (conversation for example), you can decide to eliminate a player with a quick, combined vote. And no one will ever know who did it. And you can do it again the next day. And as you say, a Disguiser can even take an important role without being spotted.

And the Blackmailer, as it is, isn't a real Blackmailer, he only is "muting someone", without denying him communications. With the Cooldown, no spam, and the chat becomes that much easier to read. As for the duration...5s isn't that much for a 1.5 min day. With 10s, you can easily vote if it is needed, but you won't rainbow, unless you are very patient, and people are really observant.

[QUOTE=Slaol;228107]Disguiser- I would completely disagree. Disguiser has a high potential in taking proven Town roles to both avoid accusation, and accuse random players. Best combo is with a Consig, and to have him take an Investigator, then have Consig pump the Disguiser info. Town is all "wut?" But Janitor is so incredible, and shuts down Town. 1 cleaning makes their process to find lying scum difficult, 2 and 3 make it just about impossible, and if he can get more than 3 it is basically GG. As well as the Janitor not having to wait for something to happen to begin taking effect. Having Disguiser sit around before acting isn't good, and if he doesn't play it perfectly afterwards it is obvious. Unless he waits for a time to just use the 2nd kill to guarantee voting majority.

Mayor- Cult+Mayor OP, any faction that has 4 members, and 7 votes is ridiculous. I should note I do play with Mayor at 4 votes, can be healed, BG stops conversion, and obviously Doc stops it. Mayors are regularly turned in the late game of Cult saves, and as such town is regularly screwed even without the Mayor extra votes. Either Cult has 4 people and just wins, or has like 2 people and town doesn't know Cult is around yet. How many days do you have between conversions for Cult? 2 nights between might make Mayor keeping votes ok.[/QUOTE]

I don't deny that the Janitor is extremely powerful, but he is also a very easy target for an investigator - there aren't many Coroners out there.

Disguiser can double the number of maf kills during one night. That's just math. If Mafia is lucky enough to be spared by invests & neutral killers in the first two days, the disguiser can guarantee the win using arithmetics. That's why it doesn't need, in my opinion, to by improved at all. In many pubs games where you always have 2 or 3 silent people, spotting the Disguiser once he kills is quite hard. And when he knows how to play, well, it's even worse.

Of course he doesn't give intel before, but he is also the maf that can escape an almost-lynch if town has no Roleblockers or Dets.

Originally Posted by Slaol

Disguiser- I would completely disagree. Disguiser has a high potential in taking proven Town roles to both avoid accusation, and accuse random players. Best combo is with a Consig, and to have him take an Investigator, then have Consig pump the Disguiser info. Town is all "wut?" But Janitor is so incredible, and shuts down Town. 1 cleaning makes their process to find lying scum difficult, 2 and 3 make it just about impossible, and if he can get more than 3 it is basically GG. As well as the Janitor not having to wait for something to happen to begin taking effect. Having Disguiser sit around before acting isn't good, and if he doesn't play it perfectly afterwards it is obvious. Unless he waits for a time to just use the 2nd kill to guarantee voting majority.

Mayor- Cult+Mayor OP, any faction that has 4 members, and 7 votes is ridiculous. I should note I do play with Mayor at 4 votes, can be healed, BG stops conversion, and obviously Doc stops it. Mayors are regularly turned in the late game of Cult saves, and as such town is regularly screwed even without the Mayor extra votes. Either Cult has 4 people and just wins, or has like 2 people and town doesn't know Cult is around yet. How many days do you have between conversions for Cult? 2 nights between might make Mayor keeping votes ok.

I don't deny that the Janitor is extremely powerful, but he is also a very easy target for an investigator - there aren't many Coroners out there.

Disguiser can double the number of maf kills during one night. That's just math. If Mafia is lucky enough to be spared by invests & neutral killers in the first two days, the disguiser can guarantee the win using arithmetics. That's why it doesn't need, in my opinion, to by improved at all. In many pubs games where you always have 2 or 3 silent people, spotting the Disguiser once he kills is quite hard. And when he knows how to play, well, it's even worse.

Of course he doesn't give intel before, but he is also the maf that can escape an almost-lynch if town has no Roleblockers or Dets.

[QUOTE=Espozito;228111]A better idea would be not to allow bmed guy to vote at all. That would seem he is afk and frame a guy more. If a guy is bmed but can vote then town just knows he is blackmailed and that he aint maf. But if the guy is bmed and can do nothing to communicate at day even by vote, then ppl think he doesnt want to answer or is afk. That would be much more useful for maf.
Though it may be too OP for maf as they can even win the 4 vs 3 game or 3 vs 2 as 1 of townies simply can't vote and maf voteblocks even when is outnumbered. So, i don't really know bout this idea.[/QUOTE]

No, it would make the BMer way too powerful in endgames. Especially if he Blackmails an Investigative Role, and no one else can spot him.

Originally Posted by Espozito

A better idea would be not to allow bmed guy to vote at all. That would seem he is afk and frame a guy more. If a guy is bmed but can vote then town just knows he is blackmailed and that he aint maf. But if the guy is bmed and can do nothing to communicate at day even by vote, then ppl think he doesnt want to answer or is afk. That would be much more useful for maf.
Though it may be too OP for maf as they can even win the 4 vs 3 game or 3 vs 2 as 1 of townies simply can't vote and maf voteblocks even when is outnumbered. So, i don't really know bout this idea.

No, it would make the BMer way too powerful in endgames. Especially if he Blackmails an Investigative Role, and no one else can spot him.

[QUOTE=Slaol;227728]It won't happen. Turn on secret ballot. Play 10 games with secret ballot and you will realize it is better for all sides. Scum can hide better if Town has no real leads, but small pockets of Town can put up legitimate leads without having to wait/rely on the nubs to vote. Blackmailer gets better, Disguiser gets better since it can now take over Mayor, and Mayor can lose votes in Cult (Cult+Mayor OP) without it being revealed until the end of a day.[/QUOTE]

Considering I play with all investigative roles as random, then town can very well get a setup without sheriff or invest, so without anyone available to give "hard clues". If you can't even count on the vote patterns, it's even more mafia paradise than the classical game. Anonymous Ballot denies almost any chance for a "town comeback" when they lost a lot of players in the beginning, since while mafia can easily target a single townie, town lacks the ability to focus on someone.

Disguiser doesn't need to get better. It's already the most powerful mafia role.

Also, I play with Mayor able of being healed, and healing/BG preventing cult conversion, so I don't make Mayor lose votes in cult. If he is turned, then town screwed.

Originally Posted by Slaol

It won't happen. Turn on secret ballot. Play 10 games with secret ballot and you will realize it is better for all sides. Scum can hide better if Town has no real leads, but small pockets of Town can put up legitimate leads without having to wait/rely on the nubs to vote. Blackmailer gets better, Disguiser gets better since it can now take over Mayor, and Mayor can lose votes in Cult (Cult+Mayor OP) without it being revealed until the end of a day.

Considering I play with all investigative roles as random, then town can very well get a setup without sheriff or invest, so without anyone available to give "hard clues". If you can't even count on the vote patterns, it's even more mafia paradise than the classical game. Anonymous Ballot denies almost any chance for a "town comeback" when they lost a lot of players in the beginning, since while mafia can easily target a single townie, town lacks the ability to focus on someone.

Disguiser doesn't need to get better. It's already the most powerful mafia role.

Also, I play with Mayor able of being healed, and healing/BG preventing cult conversion, so I don't make Mayor lose votes in cult. If he is turned, then town screwed.

[QUOTE=Ash;227719]that already happens.
its called claim sheriff and shout "this guy is SK"[/QUOTE]

Except that it's quite common for town to decide to side with neutral killers at the end of the game. Because the day 6 Sheriff claim is kind of obvious, so obvious it can make town decide that this "sheriff" sucks and that he will give one more night to the SK.

With the Strongman, SK is killed at night anyway, so maf doesn't even have to be convincing. Just some skipping and it's done.

Originally Posted by Ash

that already happens.
its called claim sheriff and shout "this guy is SK"

Except that it's quite common for town to decide to side with neutral killers at the end of the game. Because the day 6 Sheriff claim is kind of obvious, so obvious it can make town decide that this "sheriff" sucks and that he will give one more night to the SK.

With the Strongman, SK is killed at night anyway, so maf doesn't even have to be convincing. Just some skipping and it's done.

Simply too powerful against neutral killers, without anything to sacrifice. Especially if maf has already attacked him and knows who he is.
Maf can already talk at night, if they get a way to eliminate NKs while the NK (except arso who can't kill whenever he wants) is powerless against the GF, it's imbalanced.

Simply too powerful against neutral killers, without anything to sacrifice. Especially if maf has already attacked him and knows who he is.
Maf can already talk at night, if they get a way to eliminate NKs while the NK (except arso who can't kill whenever he wants) is powerless against the GF, it's imbalanced.

He should at least die when he uses his charge.
Sk or Arso vs maf endgames are common, this guy will simply ensure a win in these cases. If the strongman dies, and if the maf can't kill the night he acts, then maybe it will be balanced. Witch or BD can still screw him.

He should at least die when he uses his charge.
Sk or Arso vs maf endgames are common, this guy will simply ensure a win in these cases. If the strongman dies, and if the maf can't kill the night he acts, then maybe it will be balanced. Witch or BD can still screw him.

[QUOTE=Slaol;224366]
I really see no real reasons to have it off. Voting patterns are harder to track, but they do still come up.[/QUOTE]

Maybe in ranked.
In pubs, no one checks the vote patterns. Only the Guilty/Inno, which makes a Jester's life so much easier. It's a good way for careful players to find out who is behaving weirdly.

So without this clue, good players in town are totally screwed in pubs. They can't even pinpoint the people that don't vote on mafs.

Pubs are already easy enough for maf, no need to make it even easier with secret ballot.

Originally Posted by Slaol

I really see no real reasons to have it off. Voting patterns are harder to track, but they do still come up.

Maybe in ranked.
In pubs, no one checks the vote patterns. Only the Guilty/Inno, which makes a Jester's life so much easier. It's a good way for careful players to find out who is behaving weirdly.

So without this clue, good players in town are totally screwed in pubs. They can't even pinpoint the people that don't vote on mafs.

Pubs are already easy enough for maf, no need to make it even easier with secret ballot.

A suggestion to improve the Blackmailer role. Indeed, these days, it's pretty easy to make other people understand that you are Blackmailed. Rainbow vote, and almost everyone knows you can't talk. You can even vote/unvote a player a lot of tames if you claimed invest/sheriff and got him evil the night you were blackmailed.

So my suggestion is : add an anti-spam timer that woks after the FIRST vote, with a 10 seconds cooldown, when you are Blackmailed.

If you vote someone, then before you unvote, you have to wait for 10 seconds. This CD goes back to 0 if someone is put on trial. This way, if you have to quick vote on someone (not a lot of time left), you can do it.

Which would in practice deny the Rainbow Vote. Unless the town is absolutely silent.

A suggestion to improve the Blackmailer role. Indeed, these days, it's pretty easy to make other people understand that you are Blackmailed. Rainbow vote, and almost everyone knows you can't talk. You can even vote/unvote a player a lot of tames if you claimed invest/sheriff and got him evil the night you were blackmailed.

So my suggestion is : add an anti-spam timer that woks after the FIRST vote, with a 10 seconds cooldown, when you are Blackmailed.

If you vote someone, then before you unvote, you have to wait for 10 seconds. This CD goes back to 0 if someone is put on trial. This way, if you have to quick vote on someone (not a lot of time left), you can do it.

Which would in practice deny the Rainbow Vote. Unless the town is absolutely silent.

[QUOTE=Lysergic;224030]Jailor jails SK night 1:

Jailor: Role?
SK: Serial Killer.

Jailor cannot execute. SK kills RBers (including Jailor). Jailor dies.

-1[/QUOTE]

-lw : SK is Serial Killer. Lynch him.
Neutral Killing is dead, only maf kill remains.

Originally Posted by Lysergic

Jailor jails SK night 1:

Jailor: Role?
SK: Serial Killer.

Jailor cannot execute. SK kills RBers (including Jailor). Jailor dies.

-1

-lw : SK is Serial Killer. Lynch him.
Neutral Killing is dead, only maf kill remains.

Okay, the title is wrong, I dunno why it went back to the last thread I created, sorry...Real title was "Is this a cheat ?"

I played a weird game (with a stupid "MM can spree every night" setup...) where both Maf accused the Godfather of cheating upon their death.

So I checked the replay, which showed me this :

[ATTACH]6513[/ATTACH]

To see, you have to pick one of the maf players (RGZ, BChis or GLwHFwGG) and check their chat night 1.

The blue guy, aka the GF, randomly clicked on players at ultra-high speed (try to do the same...I think it's close to 20 clicks every second), and then stopped on a target, claiming he was Sheriff - and he WAS Sheriff, but was Jailed so no kill this night.

I'm not sure how I can report that, and IF I can report that...

Okay, the title is wrong, I dunno why it went back to the last thread I created, sorry...Real title was "Is this a cheat ?"

I played a weird game (with a stupid "MM can spree every night" setup...) where both Maf accused the Godfather of cheating upon their death.

So I checked the replay, which showed me this :



To see, you have to pick one of the maf players (RGZ, BChis or GLwHFwGG) and check their chat night 1.

The blue guy, aka the GF, randomly clicked on players at ultra-high speed (try to do the same...I think it's close to 20 clicks every second), and then stopped on a target, claiming he was Sheriff - and he WAS Sheriff, but was Jailed so no kill this night.

I'm not sure how I can report that, and IF I can report that...

[QUOTE=Lagmhisneach0rm;223181]Or this information could go on the rolecards, avoiding the jailor questionings and providing more information in the middle of the game in case your memory fails you.[/QUOTE]

Even worse : the Jailors would lynch people who can't find their "categories" quickly enough. It's not easy to find your rolecard, especially if you are town.
No, there is no need to know what is what. If all information was available, this would be too hard for maf, especially in setups where you already have 4 predetermined roles - SIDJ, Sheriff Invest Doc Jailor. Games with good players are often quite hard for evil roles, so if you make lying even harder, the baddies will never win anything. Except pub games with leavers and new players ofc.

Originally Posted by Lagmhisneach0rm

Or this information could go on the rolecards, avoiding the jailor questionings and providing more information in the middle of the game in case your memory fails you.

Even worse : the Jailors would lynch people who can't find their "categories" quickly enough. It's not easy to find your rolecard, especially if you are town.
No, there is no need to know what is what. If all information was available, this would be too hard for maf, especially in setups where you already have 4 predetermined roles - SIDJ, Sheriff Invest Doc Jailor. Games with good players are often quite hard for evil roles, so if you make lying even harder, the baddies will never win anything. Except pub games with leavers and new players ofc.

[QUOTE=Damus_Graves;222667]I believe it was does to avoid meta?[/QUOTE]

I think so too. If it becomes the same than "Town Advanced" / "Town Basic", Jailor are gonna start again to ask the category, or lynches are gonna made on people who don't quote the entire rolecard.

Which is not the point of Mafia.

Originally Posted by Damus_Graves

I believe it was does to avoid meta?

I think so too. If it becomes the same than "Town Advanced" / "Town Basic", Jailor are gonna start again to ask the category, or lynches are gonna made on people who don't quote the entire rolecard.

Which is not the point of Mafia.

Hey !

Just wanted to know how many of those "Names that got you jailxecuted/rand lynched every single time" you know.

For me, two are standing out :

[b]Justin Bieber[/b]
[b]King Joffrey Baratheon[/b] and all the variants (Joffrey Baratheon, King Joffrey...)

But do you know some others that I ignore ? It's always nice to have a nice list of those, ESPECIALLY if you appear to be Vet or MM...

Hey !

Just wanted to know how many of those "Names that got you jailxecuted/rand lynched every single time" you know.

For me, two are standing out :

Justin Bieber
King Joffrey Baratheon and all the variants (Joffrey Baratheon, King Joffrey...)

But do you know some others that I ignore ? It's always nice to have a nice list of those, ESPECIALLY if you appear to be Vet or MM...

Actually, there is a neutral benign role that also always screws town in pubs games, it's Jester.

Because if the Jester is not killed in the first two nights, then the maf spots him, and, obviously, will never kill him. Usually, the town [i]also[/i] spots him, and he is left in peace until the end.

And when it's down to 4 or 5 players with a Jester, he will always block the vote, thus letting maf win (without a good Jailor, ofc).

Actually, there is a neutral benign role that also always screws town in pubs games, it's Jester.

Because if the Jester is not killed in the first two nights, then the maf spots him, and, obviously, will never kill him. Usually, the town also spots him, and he is left in peace until the end.

And when it's down to 4 or 5 players with a Jester, he will always block the vote, thus letting maf win (without a good Jailor, ofc).

Jailor, the main reason of evil victories in pub games (along with vet on alert n1 after trolling).

Jailor, the main reason of evil victories in pub games (along with vet on alert n1 after trolling).

[QUOTE=BorkBot;213556]In this case, the sheriff should die.[/QUOTE]

Of course he should : the Bodyguard doesn't protect him.

As for what you expect, you want to make the whole situation even worse for town ? Lose 3 members instead of 2 ?
I think that the BG's "senseless" death is already bad enough. If on top of that he kills the vet, and he isn't there to protect the Sheriff, that makes the vet even more dangerous for town.

Originally Posted by BorkBot

In this case, the sheriff should die.

Of course he should : the Bodyguard doesn't protect him.

As for what you expect, you want to make the whole situation even worse for town ? Lose 3 members instead of 2 ?
I think that the BG's "senseless" death is already bad enough. If on top of that he kills the vet, and he isn't there to protect the Sheriff, that makes the vet even more dangerous for town.

[QUOTE=Boss;213531]I don't see why the BG doesnt kill the MM when sheriff checks.[/QUOTE]

Because it's the Sheriff's action that kills him - going to the wrong house, exactly like with the vet. He is not attacked [I]per se[/I].

Originally Posted by Boss

I don't see why the BG doesnt kill the MM when sheriff checks.

Because it's the Sheriff's action that kills him - going to the wrong house, exactly like with the vet. He is not attacked per se.

[QUOTE=MissingNo;213343]Well in theory the whole idea behind the vet is "I kill you before you kill me" so in a way it makes sense he doesnt die. It is almost more like the BG is visiting him rather than dueling him.

Like, there is a house. The sheriff approaches. BG says "hey, lemme check it out first" then enters the door and takes a shotgun to the face.[/QUOTE]

My problem is that it negates the purpose of the BG, which is "I bring my opponent down". So I guess that the BG should still pierce the immunity of the vet, with a last shoot in his agony, shotgun in the face or not. OTOH, this would make the vet an even worse role for town (he already tends to kill more of his fellow citizens than he does with meanies, since maf knows who he is after the 1st kill), since he could get two townies killed (him included) in one night.

The proposition to forbid him to guard from the MM too was here to balance the BG's skill : this makes him less efficient, but not dying to the vet makes him more powerful. And it also makes the MM's job a bit easier, since he can't be killed during a [i]killing in his own house[/i].

Originally Posted by MissingNo

Well in theory the whole idea behind the vet is "I kill you before you kill me" so in a way it makes sense he doesnt die. It is almost more like the BG is visiting him rather than dueling him.

Like, there is a house. The sheriff approaches. BG says "hey, lemme check it out first" then enters the door and takes a shotgun to the face.

My problem is that it negates the purpose of the BG, which is "I bring my opponent down". So I guess that the BG should still pierce the immunity of the vet, with a last shoot in his agony, shotgun in the face or not. OTOH, this would make the vet an even worse role for town (he already tends to kill more of his fellow citizens than he does with meanies, since maf knows who he is after the 1st kill), since he could get two townies killed (him included) in one night.

The proposition to forbid him to guard from the MM too was here to balance the BG's skill : this makes him less efficient, but not dying to the vet makes him more powerful. And it also makes the MM's job a bit easier, since he can't be killed during a killing in his own house.

[QUOTE=Slaol;213297]I never see you reply unless it it negative, but I just can't find a thing wrong with what you said. I do think Vet is fine, but understand where people would hate it.

Agreed, the situation is fine as is as far as kill order goes. But BG ignoring immunity should kind of bypass Vet's immunity. Is that not obvious?[/QUOTE]

Nope, IMO actually it's more "BG shouldn't protect the sheriff when the sheriff is checking on someone. He should only protect from agressions".

Maf attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
SK attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
Vigi attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
MM visits Sheriffs house and Sheriff isn't moving ? BG protects
MM visits the house the Sheriff checks ? BG doesn't protect
Sheriff visits the vet ? BG doesn't protect

This way, there is no problem with the vet's immunity, because the BG can't fight him.

Originally Posted by Slaol

I never see you reply unless it it negative, but I just can't find a thing wrong with what you said. I do think Vet is fine, but understand where people would hate it.

Agreed, the situation is fine as is as far as kill order goes. But BG ignoring immunity should kind of bypass Vet's immunity. Is that not obvious?

Nope, IMO actually it's more "BG shouldn't protect the sheriff when the sheriff is checking on someone. He should only protect from agressions".

Maf attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
SK attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
Vigi attacks Sheriff ? BG protects
MM visits Sheriffs house and Sheriff isn't moving ? BG protects
MM visits the house the Sheriff checks ? BG doesn't protect
Sheriff visits the vet ? BG doesn't protect

This way, there is no problem with the vet's immunity, because the BG can't fight him.

[QUOTE=MissingNo;213202]At the end of the day, it is still the town's fault for the vet encounter. Both for the vet enticing you to visit and then alerting and for you visiting a veteren. I don't think town should be catered to in this situation.

But I also think vet is just a bad role design to begin with.[/QUOTE]

I don't say that I shouldn't have been killed : only that the BG shouldn't be killed by the vet, but by maf, and actually be useful by eliminating one maf.
Because in this case, the maf wasn't smart : they knew there was a second BG (it was an Amne pick), and still they attacked the only revealed invest role. Because of the mechanics, the maf got away scot free, while the town lost 2 people (3 actually, someone else visited the vet independantly).

Originally Posted by MissingNo

At the end of the day, it is still the town's fault for the vet encounter. Both for the vet enticing you to visit and then alerting and for you visiting a veteren. I don't think town should be catered to in this situation.

But I also think vet is just a bad role design to begin with.

I don't say that I shouldn't have been killed : only that the BG shouldn't be killed by the vet, but by maf, and actually be useful by eliminating one maf.
Because in this case, the maf wasn't smart : they knew there was a second BG (it was an Amne pick), and still they attacked the only revealed invest role. Because of the mechanics, the maf got away scot free, while the town lost 2 people (3 actually, someone else visited the vet independantly).

I suggest a mechanics change, about how BG and Vet work.

So here is what happened (I was Sheriff) :

- n3, The BG guards me
- I visit a vet on alert
- [B]THE BODYGUARD FIGHTS THE VET[/B], and dies (the Vet survives though, even if the BG ignores invulnerability)
- the Maf attacks me
- I die, because, well, the BG is dead

In the end : 2 townies dead, including the BG who guarded me from the maf, and the maf still kills me.

I don't think the BG should defend the Sheriff from Vets. The Bodyguard should stay at someone's place, and kill whoever comes to kill. But this precise case was a double penalty : the Bodyguard played well - he guarded the Sheriff after all - but he didn't even get the GF who attacked me, because of the Vet.

So maybe it would be possible to change the death order, so the Maf attacks happens before - this way Sheriff and BG dies, but at least the BG does his job and gets the Maf. Once it's done, well, the Sheriff is killed by the Vet, that's something that happens.
Guarding a Sheriff from someone actively trying to kill him makes more sense than guarding him when he breaks into someone else's house. I also think the BG shouldn't protect the Sheriff if the Sheriff is killed by a MM in someone else's house - this way, the BG is both buffed and nerfed.

I suggest a mechanics change, about how BG and Vet work.

So here is what happened (I was Sheriff) :

- n3, The BG guards me
- I visit a vet on alert
- THE BODYGUARD FIGHTS THE VET, and dies (the Vet survives though, even if the BG ignores invulnerability)
- the Maf attacks me
- I die, because, well, the BG is dead

In the end : 2 townies dead, including the BG who guarded me from the maf, and the maf still kills me.

I don't think the BG should defend the Sheriff from Vets. The Bodyguard should stay at someone's place, and kill whoever comes to kill. But this precise case was a double penalty : the Bodyguard played well - he guarded the Sheriff after all - but he didn't even get the GF who attacked me, because of the Vet.

So maybe it would be possible to change the death order, so the Maf attacks happens before - this way Sheriff and BG dies, but at least the BG does his job and gets the Maf. Once it's done, well, the Sheriff is killed by the Vet, that's something that happens.
Guarding a Sheriff from someone actively trying to kill him makes more sense than guarding him when he breaks into someone else's house. I also think the BG shouldn't protect the Sheriff if the Sheriff is killed by a MM in someone else's house - this way, the BG is both buffed and nerfed.

Maybe this kind of role was already proposed, I dunno, haven't read everything in this section of the forum. Anyway.

The [b]Samaritan[/b], is a Town Role, obviously, who would fall under [b]Town Protective[/b]. He would be kind of a [b]Reverse Disguiser[/b].

Ability : Target a player at night. If the target is attacked, the Samaritan is killed instead, and [b]switches identities with the target[/b] (like the Disguiser does). The Samaritan cannot be healed when his ability is activated, obviously.

Options : Target saved is invulnerable the next night - (ON/OFF)

---

So the goal of this player, like the Bodyguard, is to die. Unlike the Bodyguard, he can't kill the attacker, but he protects his target for more than one night - first when he switches IDs, which can help a Sheriff or an Invest to get a few quiet nights after they reveal ; then if the 1 night invulnerability is activated (which can allow a double-check by a vigi, for example).

I think that this may be interesting, since it would allow a lot of mind games - some Maf players could claim that they were protected, or a Jester use it to get lynched, or a Citizen could use it to make Mafia target them instead of an important role. I always thought that the Disguiser had no equivalent in town, even if this is one of the most challenging roles (you have to assume someone else identity - easy in pub, but with good players, it's quite hard not to be spotted, especially if your target was vocal).

Plus, unlike the Bodyguard, the Samaritan should not [i]always[/i] guard someone - you don't want to save a Maf from a SK and give it an alibi, or to waste your ability on a neutral or a Citizen.

Maybe this kind of role was already proposed, I dunno, haven't read everything in this section of the forum. Anyway.

The Samaritan, is a Town Role, obviously, who would fall under Town Protective. He would be kind of a Reverse Disguiser.

Ability : Target a player at night. If the target is attacked, the Samaritan is killed instead, and switches identities with the target (like the Disguiser does). The Samaritan cannot be healed when his ability is activated, obviously.

Options : Target saved is invulnerable the next night - (ON/OFF)

---

So the goal of this player, like the Bodyguard, is to die. Unlike the Bodyguard, he can't kill the attacker, but he protects his target for more than one night - first when he switches IDs, which can help a Sheriff or an Invest to get a few quiet nights after they reveal ; then if the 1 night invulnerability is activated (which can allow a double-check by a vigi, for example).

I think that this may be interesting, since it would allow a lot of mind games - some Maf players could claim that they were protected, or a Jester use it to get lynched, or a Citizen could use it to make Mafia target them instead of an important role. I always thought that the Disguiser had no equivalent in town, even if this is one of the most challenging roles (you have to assume someone else identity - easy in pub, but with good players, it's quite hard not to be spotted, especially if your target was vocal).

Plus, unlike the Bodyguard, the Samaritan should not always guard someone - you don't want to save a Maf from a SK and give it an alibi, or to waste your ability on a neutral or a Citizen.

[QUOTE=Landstander;206539]Screenshot the lag cheating and then post the replay.[/QUOTE]

I'll do that next time, I didn't make a screenshot. The replay only shows me saying that [...] earns a report, and someone saying "+1". You can put the pieces together if you check what the player made at night, and what was said during the next day chat, but I'm not sure it's enough.

Originally Posted by Landstander

Screenshot the lag cheating and then post the replay.

I'll do that next time, I didn't make a screenshot. The replay only shows me saying that [...] earns a report, and someone saying "+1". You can put the pieces together if you check what the player made at night, and what was said during the next day chat, but I'm not sure it's enough.

I don't want to start a new thread so I'll ask it here : how can we report people who are gamethrowing during the lag sequences (exactly, by giving the name of the SK without saying anything during day chat) ? Screenshot ? Because it doesn't appear in the Log, obviously, or in the replay.

I don't want to start a new thread so I'll ask it here : how can we report people who are gamethrowing during the lag sequences (exactly, by giving the name of the SK without saying anything during day chat) ? Screenshot ? Because it doesn't appear in the Log, obviously, or in the replay.

[QUOTE=EagleMan;205917]Citizen is good because I'm free to be as vocal as I want, and if I die, I soak up a kill that would've otherwise gone to a more valuable town role. I can also win ties at the end which is invaluable. If I reveal myself as Citizen, I'm free to lead the town, though I'm less likely to win a tie at the end, if I lay low I can surprise win the game with a vest at the end (never ever use a vest unless you're down to the final 3).[/QUOTE]

This exactly, even if I'm not that adamant about the "never use your vest". There are ways to waste 1 maf kill, if you make it look like you are some important role. That's when PMs are awesome, if you're lucky.

Originally Posted by EagleMan

Citizen is good because I'm free to be as vocal as I want, and if I die, I soak up a kill that would've otherwise gone to a more valuable town role. I can also win ties at the end which is invaluable. If I reveal myself as Citizen, I'm free to lead the town, though I'm less likely to win a tie at the end, if I lay low I can surprise win the game with a vest at the end (never ever use a vest unless you're down to the final 3).

This exactly, even if I'm not that adamant about the "never use your vest". There are ways to waste 1 maf kill, if you make it look like you are some important role. That's when PMs are awesome, if you're lucky.

[QUOTE=EagleMan;205930]If they're a threat I'll get rid of them. If they've been unhelpful until now I'll punish them for it. Otherwise I let them win.[/QUOTE]

Define "unhelpful". Do you mean "Obstructive" ? Or just plain neutral ?

Because of course, I never said that I was neutral - cause the setup only allowed 1 benign neutral, and he was already dead, that was a passport to the Pyre.

Originally Posted by EagleMan

If they're a threat I'll get rid of them. If they've been unhelpful until now I'll punish them for it. Otherwise I let them win.

Define "unhelpful". Do you mean "Obstructive" ? Or just plain neutral ?

Because of course, I never said that I was neutral - cause the setup only allowed 1 benign neutral, and he was already dead, that was a passport to the Pyre.

Right now, I'm wondering how you see neutral players (non-killing ones : Survivor/Amnesiac/Witch) when you are Mafia.

Because last game, as a witch, instead of revealing the obvious consi-turned-GF (which would make for a hell of an alibi), I decided to shut up and to be as unhelpful as possible (and to screw with all the Sheriff's investigations). Come the end of the game, 2 maf, me and 1 town, and when I reveal, the maf lynches me. Reason : "you only reveal now".

I know that some maf players like to suddenly feel like god when the win is secured, and to lynch players who, I quote some dumbass I played with (sadly, I was in his team), "get a free win by doing nothing". What do you feel about it ? Do you make sure that everyone but the maf is dead at the end of the game ? Or do you just let them live ?

Right now, I'm wondering how you see neutral players (non-killing ones : Survivor/Amnesiac/Witch) when you are Mafia.

Because last game, as a witch, instead of revealing the obvious consi-turned-GF (which would make for a hell of an alibi), I decided to shut up and to be as unhelpful as possible (and to screw with all the Sheriff's investigations). Come the end of the game, 2 maf, me and 1 town, and when I reveal, the maf lynches me. Reason : "you only reveal now".

I know that some maf players like to suddenly feel like god when the win is secured, and to lynch players who, I quote some dumbass I played with (sadly, I was in his team), "get a free win by doing nothing". What do you feel about it ? Do you make sure that everyone but the maf is dead at the end of the game ? Or do you just let them live ?

In the game I just made, I found the GF as a citizen. I whispered "I invested you", he answered "citizen", then I put my bulletproof next night : I was attacked.

So with PMs, you can do great things as a Citi. Of course, the doc and the escort screwed the game and we lost, but still.

In the game I just made, I found the GF as a citizen. I whispered "I invested you", he answered "citizen", then I put my bulletproof next night : I was attacked.

So with PMs, you can do great things as a Citi. Of course, the doc and the escort screwed the game and we lost, but still.

[QUOTE=RLVG;205885]Contradiction :


Escort = Cannot be roleblocked
Amnesiac = You are immune to role-blocking and [B]manipulative roles[/B]

If it's true that Escort can't be manipulated, I'll point out a typo.
Otherwise, it's not intended.[/QUOTE]

Witch is not a Role-blocker, but I guess that IF she controls the Escort, IF she makes her target herself and IF the Escort is immune to RB, then the action of the Witch probably counts as a Roleblock, which nullifies it and allows the Escort to block.

Which is weird, since it means the Escort makes 2 actions in the night : the first one on herself, that doesn't count, and the second one (the one she planned).

Originally Posted by RLVG

Contradiction :


Escort = Cannot be roleblocked
Amnesiac = You are immune to role-blocking and manipulative roles

If it's true that Escort can't be manipulated, I'll point out a typo.
Otherwise, it's not intended.

Witch is not a Role-blocker, but I guess that IF she controls the Escort, IF she makes her target herself and IF the Escort is immune to RB, then the action of the Witch probably counts as a Roleblock, which nullifies it and allows the Escort to block.

Which is weird, since it means the Escort makes 2 actions in the night : the first one on herself, that doesn't count, and the second one (the one she planned).

Citizens.
PMs.
Mafia rape.

Citizens.
PMs.
Mafia rape.

Some people do it for troll. If we had to file a report every time we see a Hitler in a game...

Some people do it for troll. If we had to file a report every time we see a Hitler in a game...

Yeah, some moron got lucky, being both a Jailor and troll'd by evil roles.

In the lobby, Valdor was the idiot. Asking for a shorter day, and troll'd by the guy who asked for a Night Seq...

Yeah, some moron got lucky, being both a Jailor and troll'd by evil roles.

In the lobby, Valdor was the idiot. Asking for a shorter day, and troll'd by the guy who asked for a Night Seq...

Here's a little mechanics problem.

The situation was as follow :

- 1 Witch (Victim knows he is controlled/Can cause self-targets)
- 1 Arsonist (Victim doesn't know if doused)
- 1 Jester
- 1 Escort (Cannot be role-blocked)

So I finally reveal that I am Arsonist, and ask the witch to reveal. She does, and I told her to control the Escort so I can burn her.
At night, I am blocked. When I checked the replay, the Witch ordered the Escort to target herself.

And for some reason, it didn't work. Which is supposed to act before the Escort though (and even before the BD is needed).

My question is as follow : if the Escort cannot be roleblocked, does the action of the witch counts as a roleblock (self-targeting), thus allowing her to perform the action she wanted to do first ?
Or is it a bug ?

Here's a little mechanics problem.

The situation was as follow :

- 1 Witch (Victim knows he is controlled/Can cause self-targets)
- 1 Arsonist (Victim doesn't know if doused)
- 1 Jester
- 1 Escort (Cannot be role-blocked)

So I finally reveal that I am Arsonist, and ask the witch to reveal. She does, and I told her to control the Escort so I can burn her.
At night, I am blocked. When I checked the replay, the Witch ordered the Escort to target herself.

And for some reason, it didn't work. Which is supposed to act before the Escort though (and even before the BD is needed).

My question is as follow : if the Escort cannot be roleblocked, does the action of the witch counts as a roleblock (self-targeting), thus allowing her to perform the action she wanted to do first ?
Or is it a bug ?

[QUOTE=Blazer;203977]if they take no action they cover mafia buddies...[/QUOTE]

Nope, I suggested an arso-like system :

- right column, someone to sanitize = "Douse"
- left column,clean maf killed on duty = "Burn"
- AFK, nothing happens

If the arsonist is AFK, he is AFK. He doesn't douse, he doesn't burn, he just stays home and watches TV. Probably some Michael Bay movie.

Originally Posted by Blazer

if they take no action they cover mafia buddies...

Nope, I suggested an arso-like system :

- right column, someone to sanitize = "Douse"
- left column,clean maf killed on duty = "Burn"
- AFK, nothing happens

If the arsonist is AFK, he is AFK. He doesn't douse, he doesn't burn, he just stays home and watches TV. Probably some Michael Bay movie.

Since that's not what I suggested, I agree completely.

Since that's not what I suggested, I agree completely.

Arso still needs to click when he wants to burn someone. That would be the same here.

I agree that Janitor as it is is good enough, but it is not really a "guess", since he can see who the maf kill is, and is swapped by BD like everyone else.

Only survival and witches can make them miss a target.

Arso still needs to click when he wants to burn someone. That would be the same here.

I agree that Janitor as it is is good enough, but it is not really a "guess", since he can see who the maf kill is, and is swapped by BD like everyone else.

Only survival and witches can make them miss a target.

[QUOTE=Blazer;203963]We still shouldnt force an action of a player[/QUOTE]

So how about the same system that "douse/undouse" for arsonist ?

Janitor can either :
- Go at someone's home to sanitize
- Stay on "alert" and erase unlucky maf members who visited a vet, a MM targeting himself, or Consorts who blocked a SK (deaths happening at a place targeted by the maf not the other way around)

Originally Posted by Blazer

We still shouldnt force an action of a player

So how about the same system that "douse/undouse" for arsonist ?

Janitor can either :
- Go at someone's home to sanitize
- Stay on "alert" and erase unlucky maf members who visited a vet, a MM targeting himself, or Consorts who blocked a SK (deaths happening at a place targeted by the maf not the other way around)

[QUOTE=Blazer;203942]Still don't like it. What if the janitor wants to pass as coroner and not clean anyone?[/QUOTE]

That's like a SK who wants to pass as a doc and not kill anyone 'til the end, and who is jailed. You can't because fate said so.
The Vet kill on a maf member (Disguiser/GF/Mafioso) associated with the Janitor being inactive (and still having cleanings left) is even less likely to happen than a SK jailed.

Originally Posted by Blazer

Still don't like it. What if the janitor wants to pass as coroner and not clean anyone?

That's like a SK who wants to pass as a doc and not kill anyone 'til the end, and who is jailed. You can't because fate said so.
The Vet kill on a maf member (Disguiser/GF/Mafioso) associated with the Janitor being inactive (and still having cleanings left) is even less likely to happen than a SK jailed.

So the invest does not IDs people sanitized ? It never happened to me, I don't know if there is a specific message.

So the invest does not IDs people sanitized ? It never happened to me, I don't know if there is a specific message.

All actions are always performed before kills, except obviously for the Janitor (and even worse, the coroner).

This explains why blackmailer can blackmail people the night they are killed.

So nothing strange here.

All actions are always performed before kills, except obviously for the Janitor (and even worse, the coroner).

This explains why blackmailer can blackmail people the night they are killed.

So nothing strange here.

Janitor doesn't really need a buff IMO...

The best I would think of would be the auto-clean of vet kills on maf members if the Janitor didn't target anyone this night, as an option.

And I say vet kill and not vigi or jailor kills, because unlike the others we can suppose the maf prepares the operation, so the Janitor knows where the killer is going. The vigi and jailor can't be predicted.

Janitor doesn't really need a buff IMO...

The best I would think of would be the auto-clean of vet kills on maf members if the Janitor didn't target anyone this night, as an option.

And I say vet kill and not vigi or jailor kills, because unlike the others we can suppose the maf prepares the operation, so the Janitor knows where the killer is going. The vigi and jailor can't be predicted.

Wouldn't it be possible to instead make the WP a doc-like character with one charge ?

Because his goal is to protect a target. So when a killing role targets someone, if the WP did the same, the person appears to die byt the hand of the killer - but she isn't dead, and only the WP and the target know that. And then, whatever should happen, happens.

In priority, it should be after BG and Doctor actions - else Doc/BG would understand what happens, and that would be OP for town.

Impossible to protect Arso and MM kills. Impossible to save a Bodyguard (actually, I would put it as a setup option : Yes or No). Impossible to make the Mayor escape.

So when it works, it's actually a very powerful role. But it would be hard to pull a successful witness protection. And hard to alibi :D I guess the WP could appear like Blackmailer/Lookout : strangely observant.

Edit : oh, and the death of the WP should trigger the resurrection of his target. To avoid escapes on d1 with no reveal until d10.

Wouldn't it be possible to instead make the WP a doc-like character with one charge ?

Because his goal is to protect a target. So when a killing role targets someone, if the WP did the same, the person appears to die byt the hand of the killer - but she isn't dead, and only the WP and the target know that. And then, whatever should happen, happens.

In priority, it should be after BG and Doctor actions - else Doc/BG would understand what happens, and that would be OP for town.

Impossible to protect Arso and MM kills. Impossible to save a Bodyguard (actually, I would put it as a setup option : Yes or No). Impossible to make the Mayor escape.

So when it works, it's actually a very powerful role. But it would be hard to pull a successful witness protection. And hard to alibi I guess the WP could appear like Blackmailer/Lookout : strangely observant.

Edit : oh, and the death of the WP should trigger the resurrection of his target. To avoid escapes on d1 with no reveal until d10.

An experience I just lived.

Standard game, on my save (very close to the Stnadard on Ranked). I am Escort. One of the players is called "François Hollande", and d1, all frenchies start talking french (at least, that was only for day one). So a lot of french players.

I find the GF on day one. "Hollande" appears to be Jailor, I pm him what I know, ant tell him to get everyone's roles, and not to lynch. N2, bodyguard kills the SK, so the only killer can be roleblocked. Looks like easy win, right ?

WRONG. On Ballot day, I am blackmailed, AND THE JAILOR ACCUSES ONE GUY RANDOMLY. So of course, someone is lynched, a townie.

From this day on, I was logically blackmailed every day. And on the second day, suddenly, the same Jailor accuses me to be maf, claiming "I know you are maf". And I get lynched. While blackmailed. Even worse: I'm lynched by 3 vs 1, and HIS VOTE WAS ON GUILTY. Even worse, the invest that was lynched CONFIRMED I WAS ESCORT IN HIS LW.

So I rage, obviously. Game continues, and both mafs are finally identified. It comes to a 2 vs 2, with doc/jailor vs mafioso/blackmailer. So a 50/50 : if jailor jails mafioso, win, right ?

Wrong. HE FORGOT TO JAIL.

And after that, he said "I just made one mistake".
French people, ladies and gentlemen. I feel a bit ashamed.

An experience I just lived.

Standard game, on my save (very close to the Stnadard on Ranked). I am Escort. One of the players is called "François Hollande", and d1, all frenchies start talking french (at least, that was only for day one). So a lot of french players.

I find the GF on day one. "Hollande" appears to be Jailor, I pm him what I know, ant tell him to get everyone's roles, and not to lynch. N2, bodyguard kills the SK, so the only killer can be roleblocked. Looks like easy win, right ?

WRONG. On Ballot day, I am blackmailed, AND THE JAILOR ACCUSES ONE GUY RANDOMLY. So of course, someone is lynched, a townie.

From this day on, I was logically blackmailed every day. And on the second day, suddenly, the same Jailor accuses me to be maf, claiming "I know you are maf". And I get lynched. While blackmailed. Even worse: I'm lynched by 3 vs 1, and HIS VOTE WAS ON GUILTY. Even worse, the invest that was lynched CONFIRMED I WAS ESCORT IN HIS LW.

So I rage, obviously. Game continues, and both mafs are finally identified. It comes to a 2 vs 2, with doc/jailor vs mafioso/blackmailer. So a 50/50 : if jailor jails mafioso, win, right ?

Wrong. HE FORGOT TO JAIL.

And after that, he said "I just made one mistake".
French people, ladies and gentlemen. I feel a bit ashamed.