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Are we confident that diversity is achieved better by race and sex, rather than by individuals?

Here - [url]https://youtu.be/QCPDByRb4no[/url] - Jordan Peterson claims to have studied differences between people and that individual differences far outweigh the group differences.
It makes sense, yet [MENTION=2230]oops_ur_dead[/MENTION] showed that companies go for that 'diversity by looks' so to speak.

Are we confident that diversity is achieved better by race and sex, rather than by individuals?

Here - https://youtu.be/QCPDByRb4no - Jordan Peterson claims to have studied differences between people and that individual differences far outweigh the group differences.
It makes sense, yet @oops_ur_dead showed that companies go for that 'diversity by looks' so to speak.

Tbh in my country nobody knows logical fallacies. We don't even have translations for "fallacy names" as far as I know. Maybe in some obscure philosophy class somewhere they teach about critical thinking, I wouldn't hold my breath though.
There's other parts to critical thinking, ofcourse, but I always presumed that critical thinking isn't actually thought in the world, other than philosophy classes specifically.

Tbh in my country nobody knows logical fallacies. We don't even have translations for "fallacy names" as far as I know. Maybe in some obscure philosophy class somewhere they teach about critical thinking, I wouldn't hold my breath though.
There's other parts to critical thinking, ofcourse, but I always presumed that critical thinking isn't actually thought in the world, other than philosophy classes specifically.

Fwiw, I agree that people's reactions could have been better.

Fwiw, I agree that people's reactions could have been better.

University is overrated. :weed:

(I hope :( )

University is overrated.

(I hope )

[QUOTE=Oberon;918514]▪ Diversity fosters innovation and creativity through a greater variety of problem-solvingapproaches, perspectives, and ideas. Academic research has shown that diverse groupsoften outperform experts.
this is from their article.[/QUOTE]
I mean, let's be honest.

Technically that text doesn't say anything about the importance or unimportance of how qualified a person is etc. but almost everyone would presume that they [B]don't[/B] imply any random doofes would be better and that their qualification and stuff is irrelevant.

The way I see it, this is text book example of arguing semantics.

Originally Posted by Oberon

â–ª Diversity fosters innovation and creativity through a greater variety of problem-solvingapproaches, perspectives, and ideas. Academic research has shown that diverse groupsoften outperform experts.
this is from their article.

I mean, let's be honest.

Technically that text doesn't say anything about the importance or unimportance of how qualified a person is etc. but almost everyone would presume that they don't imply any random doofes would be better and that their qualification and stuff is irrelevant.

The way I see it, this is text book example of arguing semantics.

[QUOTE=Oberon;918512][IMG]https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27691&d=1612211638&thumb=1[/IMG]
It's I think the fourth quote or someshit. I don't know.[/QUOTE]

Why can't I click it? :(

Originally Posted by Oberon

It's I think the fourth quote or someshit. I don't know.

Why can't I click it?

[QUOTE=Oberon;918511]Wanna know what the most diverse part of the world is? Africa! Doesn't work out that well does it?[/QUOTE]
Fmpov, you went from strawman'ing to special pleading.
I'm thinking there's a misunderstandings in what is actually argued.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Wanna know what the most diverse part of the world is? Africa! Doesn't work out that well does it?

Fmpov, you went from strawman'ing to special pleading.
I'm thinking there's a misunderstandings in what is actually argued.

[QUOTE=Oberon;918509]
when someone claims something fucking stupid such as culture > personality/education [/QUOTE]
Admittedly I haven't read the studies in question, nor a lot of this thread given that they talk about what I haven't read.

But if you are implying that someone has claimed that [I]personality/education[/I] doesn't matter and that they would rather hire a random guy off the street from a different culture, just for the diversity, completely ignoring how qualified they are - may I ask you to quote it and prove that you're not strawman'ing someone's argument?

Originally Posted by Oberon

when someone claims something fucking stupid such as culture > personality/education

Admittedly I haven't read the studies in question, nor a lot of this thread given that they talk about what I haven't read.

But if you are implying that someone has claimed that personality/education doesn't matter and that they would rather hire a random guy off the street from a different culture, just for the diversity, completely ignoring how qualified they are - may I ask you to quote it and prove that you're not strawman'ing someone's argument?

[QUOTE=oops_ur_dead;918380]Here's another clever paper for you to ignore, where they specifically address the causal relationship between hiring women and improvement in performance of venture capital firms:

[url]https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w23454/w23454.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]
Tbh, it gives assertions based on statistics.
Not sure if could ask for something more, based on the topic. But I know that in science "assertions based on statistics" studies are the least credible.
That's not to say they're necessarily wrong, but rather that there's a legitimate reason to question such papers.

Originally Posted by oops_ur_dead

Here's another clever paper for you to ignore, where they specifically address the causal relationship between hiring women and improvement in performance of venture capital firms:

https://www.nber.org/system/files/wo...454/w23454.pdf

Tbh, it gives assertions based on statistics.
Not sure if could ask for something more, based on the topic. But I know that in science "assertions based on statistics" studies are the least credible.
That's not to say they're necessarily wrong, but rather that there's a legitimate reason to question such papers.

[QUOTE=Oberon;918376]I'm not arguing against the observation as much as I am arguing against the conclusion. To some degree you are right because I have my suspicions the observations are flawed in some manner though even if they weren't the conclusion that diversity -> profit is incorrect. I did not even say wrong, I said incorrect because it could be that they're related but I'm pretty strongly opposed to the idea that the link is causal. If the link is causal at all I would sooner argue that profit -> diversity.[/QUOTE]
I like this post.

Originally Posted by Oberon

I'm not arguing against the observation as much as I am arguing against the conclusion. To some degree you are right because I have my suspicions the observations are flawed in some manner though even if they weren't the conclusion that diversity -> profit is incorrect. I did not even say wrong, I said incorrect because it could be that they're related but I'm pretty strongly opposed to the idea that the link is causal. If the link is causal at all I would sooner argue that profit -> diversity.

I like this post.

[QUOTE=Oberon;918370]Gravity is reasonable.
The idea that diversity of culture matters more than diversity of thought is not.[/QUOTE]

I mean, the papers must be based on observations. A study without observations is no study at all, but just a philosophical blog post with a fancy name.

Therefore I assume the links must have observations in them.

My question is, how can you deny observations?

In science, usually, observations stay the same and it's the conclusions that change over time.

Fmpov you're not arguing against a conclusion but a observation.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Gravity is reasonable.
The idea that diversity of culture matters more than diversity of thought is not.

I mean, the papers must be based on observations. A study without observations is no study at all, but just a philosophical blog post with a fancy name.

Therefore I assume the links must have observations in them.

My question is, how can you deny observations?

In science, usually, observations stay the same and it's the conclusions that change over time.

Fmpov you're not arguing against a conclusion but a observation.

Oberon, if I make an observation - is the observation invalid until I can come up with an explanation how it came to be?
For example, gravity doesn't exist until someone explains it?

Oberon, if I make an observation - is the observation invalid until I can come up with an explanation how it came to be?
For example, gravity doesn't exist until someone explains it?

[QUOTE=yzb25;918358]I'm struggling to get around the paywall for the 3rd paper. Am I being dumb?[/QUOTE]

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I guess you've to wait a month or register, if you can't view this one. :laugh:

Originally Posted by yzb25

I'm struggling to get around the paywall for the 3rd paper. Am I being dumb?

You have 1 free article left this month.
Create an account to read 2 more.


I guess you've to wait a month or register, if you can't view this one.

[QUOTE=Oberon;918341]Actually I agree that ethnicity determines talent. For example the French are great at surrendering, Romanians at electing people who are in JAIL, (and just generally being retarded), Latvians make great potatoes, and Southerners are great at shagging their sisters. [MENTION=29377]Marshmallow Marshall[/MENTION] [MENTION=30663]OzyWho[/MENTION][/QUOTE]
I like potatoes.

No joke, I once told my grandparents "you know, in other parts of the world - they actually eat other things than potatoes".
Their response was, I kid you not, "what do you mean? what other things?" in a tone that basically said "what else is there besides potatoes? wtf you talking about?"
Sadly I couldn't give any answers. :(
Though I know that Asians love rice, so go me!

Originally Posted by Oberon

Actually I agree that ethnicity determines talent. For example the French are great at surrendering, Romanians at electing people who are in JAIL, (and just generally being retarded), Latvians make great potatoes, and Southerners are great at shagging their sisters. @Marshmallow Marshall @OzyWho

I like potatoes.

No joke, I once told my grandparents "you know, in other parts of the world - they actually eat other things than potatoes".
Their response was, I kid you not, "what do you mean? what other things?" in a tone that basically said "what else is there besides potatoes? wtf you talking about?"
Sadly I couldn't give any answers.
Though I know that Asians love rice, so go me!

Social media is so influential that it's powers sometimes feel like they could rival those of law.

If there's a moral driven movement against a companies lack of diversity, chances are that the company will submit. That's an alternative motivation for a company. MM's idea is valid.

Then there's the case of what this thread was originally referring to (in the YT link I posted earlier) - a newly elected UK government's policy attempts to put up a quota in the civil service to have x% of women present in it. Politics to win future votes. US politicians might as well attempt something similar sometime.

Social media is so influential that it's powers sometimes feel like they could rival those of law.

If there's a moral driven movement against a companies lack of diversity, chances are that the company will submit. That's an alternative motivation for a company. MM's idea is valid.

Then there's the case of what this thread was originally referring to (in the YT link I posted earlier) - a newly elected UK government's policy attempts to put up a quota in the civil service to have x% of women present in it. Politics to win future votes. US politicians might as well attempt something similar sometime.

[QUOTE=Marshmallow Marshall;918314]Saying that promoting [I]diversity[/I] is an objective in itself is too short-sighted. The actual objective is to promote and ensure [I]equality[/I], because that is the fundamental principle; diversity only is a natural consequence of equality. Therefore, promoting diversity at the expense of equality is a perversion of the ideal, [/QUOTE] I love this part. It addresses a completely different reason for going for diversity than what Oops was talking about.
Loving the diversity in this discussion so far.



[QUOTE=Marshmallow Marshall;918314] Giving 10k/year to every black person to "create" equality does not actually establish [s]equality[/s] [COLOR="#00FF00"]equity[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR="#00FF00"]fixed[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Saying that promoting diversity is an objective in itself is too short-sighted. The actual objective is to promote and ensure equality, because that is the fundamental principle; diversity only is a natural consequence of equality. Therefore, promoting diversity at the expense of equality is a perversion of the ideal,

I love this part. It addresses a completely different reason for going for diversity than what Oops was talking about.
Loving the diversity in this discussion so far.

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Giving 10k/year to every black person to "create" equality does not actually establish equality equity

fixed

[QUOTE=Oberon;918311]After all, nobody in their right mind would argue a black biologist working at NASA or whatever has more in common with a black railroad worker than with a white biologist.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't argue with this.
Now the question is - do the studies? I'm thinking nobody besides oops is gonna read those to ever answer that. ��

Originally Posted by Oberon

After all, nobody in their right mind would argue a black biologist working at NASA or whatever has more in common with a black railroad worker than with a white biologist.

I wouldn't argue with this.
Now the question is - do the studies? I'm thinking nobody besides oops is gonna read those to ever answer that. ��

[MENTION=2230]oops_ur_dead[/MENTION]
Ftr, the original reference was politics based. From this show: [url]https://youtu.be/x_KRk4q3Y44[/url]
I'm curious if what you said you'd say also goes for governments?

@oops_ur_dead
Ftr, the original reference was politics based. From this show: https://youtu.be/x_KRk4q3Y44
I'm curious if what you said you'd say also goes for governments?

[QUOTE=Helz;918298]One of the most maddening things to me is how extraversion is pushed so hard. Its especially prominent in business degrees these days.[/QUOTE]

Less now than in the past though imo. Companies get more educated as time goes on.

Try telling a boss 50 years ago that cancelling a meeting can be pro-productivity.

Originally Posted by Helz

One of the most maddening things to me is how extraversion is pushed so hard. Its especially prominent in business degrees these days.

Less now than in the past though imo. Companies get more educated as time goes on.

Try telling a boss 50 years ago that cancelling a meeting can be pro-productivity.

[QUOTE=Oberon;918292]Oh wait they’re from different colleges. I missed that. Over here we call them faculties so that confused me ��[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you've a similar system as we.

This system that Oxbridge operates is called "collegiate university", University of Paris being the oldest with this system.

Yet what possible alternatives are there to collegiate universities? I can't for the life of me find any list or answer on the web, try as I may.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Oh wait they’re from different colleges. I missed that. Over here we call them faculties so that confused me ��

Sounds like you've a similar system as we.

This system that Oxbridge operates is called "collegiate university", University of Paris being the oldest with this system.

Yet what possible alternatives are there to collegiate universities? I can't for the life of me find any list or answer on the web, try as I may.

[QUOTE=oops_ur_dead;918293]Funny thing this argument. If you look at research done by consulting companies and venture capital firms, it's largely and consistently found that companies that have more diverse management perform better.

This shows that diversity drives innovation and innovation revenue:
[url]https://www.bcg.com/en-us/publications/2018/how-diverse-leadership-teams-boost-innovation[/url]

This shows that gender and ethnic diversity drives company profitability:
[url]https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/organization/our-insights/delivering-through-diversity[/url]

This review shows that companies with a more diverse workforce are more likely to grow in market share and successfully capture new markets:
[url]https://hbr.org/2013/12/how-diversity-can-drive-innovation[/url]

There are also many VC firms that take diversity heavily into account when deciding which companies to invest in. Do you think they actually care about diversity for diversity's sake?

The idea that companies force diversity over merit is misleading and very short-sighted. There's no grand conspiracy to replace muh white people, that's fucking stupid. They just want more profit, and diversity is a proven method of accomplishing that.

Often times the "best man for the job" is whatever makes the board more diverse than another old white dude. Or do you think companies shouldn't be allowed to do what helps them attain the most profitability and success?

Though maybe I'm overthinking a dumb joke.[/QUOTE]
Love this post.

Originally Posted by oops_ur_dead

Funny thing this argument. If you look at research done by consulting companies and venture capital firms, it's largely and consistently found that companies that have more diverse management perform better.

This shows that diversity drives innovation and innovation revenue:
https://www.bcg.com/en-us/publicatio...ost-innovation

This shows that gender and ethnic diversity drives company profitability:
https://www.mckinsey.com/business-fu...ough-diversity

This review shows that companies with a more diverse workforce are more likely to grow in market share and successfully capture new markets:
https://hbr.org/2013/12/how-diversit...ive-innovation

There are also many VC firms that take diversity heavily into account when deciding which companies to invest in. Do you think they actually care about diversity for diversity's sake?

The idea that companies force diversity over merit is misleading and very short-sighted. There's no grand conspiracy to replace muh white people, that's fucking stupid. They just want more profit, and diversity is a proven method of accomplishing that.

Often times the "best man for the job" is whatever makes the board more diverse than another old white dude. Or do you think companies shouldn't be allowed to do what helps them attain the most profitability and success?

Though maybe I'm overthinking a dumb joke.

Love this post.

Imagine a room full of middle-aged white men, each from a different college. True, they are all from either Oxford University or Cambridge University, but they are each from a different college nonetheless, wearing their respective college's neckties and stuff.

A movement comes about. A movement to force more diversity in the group.

This group of middle-aged white men are all.. let's say confused.. about the idea. Because [I]"quite frankly, you couldn't find a more diverse lot than us." [/I]

I can't help but feel like they got a point. [QUOTE]We must promote the best man for the job, regardless of their sex.[/QUOTE]
Opinions? :laugh:


[I]Who knows the reference btw?[/I] :D

Imagine a room full of middle-aged white men, each from a different college. True, they are all from either Oxford University or Cambridge University, but they are each from a different college nonetheless, wearing their respective college's neckties and stuff.

A movement comes about. A movement to force more diversity in the group.

This group of middle-aged white men are all.. let's say confused.. about the idea. Because "quite frankly, you couldn't find a more diverse lot than us."

I can't help but feel like they got a point.

We must promote the best man for the job, regardless of their sex.

Opinions?


Who knows the reference btw?