[QUOTE=DarknessB;610491]I'd like the Drug Dealer from Watermeloann personally, if we're going to troll them, lol.[/QUOTE]
It's not to troll, it's to encourage discussion on things like feedback, figuring out who was bussed, was the roleblock real, ect.
How is Drug Dealer trolling?
Originally Posted by DarknessB
I'd like the Drug Dealer from Watermeloann personally, if we're going to troll them, lol.
It's not to troll, it's to encourage discussion on things like feedback, figuring out who was bussed, was the roleblock real, ect.
How is Drug Dealer trolling?
[QUOTE=DarknessB;610489]Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, but I don't see how Drug Dealer is cruel. It's an extremely common role.
Originally Posted by DarknessB
Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.
Fair enough, but I don't see how Drug Dealer is cruel. It's an extremely common role.
[QUOTE=DarknessB;610484]We had mentors in the last Beginner's Game, except most of them did virtually nothing, lol. Need to pick ones who will be more invested in helping their mentee. Obviously, if the mentees don't want help, that's a different story, but I heard lots of cases of players suffering in silence without help from their mentors in that first game.[/QUOTE]
That's because no one wants to play a game they're not actually playing
Originally Posted by DarknessB
We had mentors in the last Beginner's Game, except most of them did virtually nothing, lol. Need to pick ones who will be more invested in helping their mentee. Obviously, if the mentees don't want help, that's a different story, but I heard lots of cases of players suffering in silence without help from their mentors in that first game.
That's because no one wants to play a game they're not actually playing
[QUOTE=DarknessB;610481]I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.[/QUOTE]
The point of roles like Tailor & Drug Dealer being present in the game is the WIFOM it adds as being possible, not the actual presence of the role in the game.
Originally Posted by DarknessB
I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.
The point of roles like Tailor & Drug Dealer being present in the game is the WIFOM it adds as being possible, not the actual presence of the role in the game.
[QUOTE=Calix;610470]Cryptonic, I still think your favourite 7-player setup is a better option. I would not risk skewing the odds of a Town: Mafia win too much in one direction.
If this setup was used, I don't agree with having a Neutral involved for a first game, given that it means the Mafia can also scum-hunt and thus takes away a part of scum-hunting. (the fact that Mafia are informed and Town are not)
Makes the game too swingy for my liking.
I like Quick's setup but I do not think that even the "veterans" on this site know what the optimal strategies for that kind of game are, so giving it to new mod players would be a nightmare.
Guess I might use it for the Vanilla S-FM queue though.[/QUOTE]
I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.
Cryptonic, I still think your favourite 7-player setup is a better option. I would not risk skewing the odds of a Town: Mafia win too much in one direction.
If this setup was used, I don't agree with having a Neutral involved for a first game, given that it means the Mafia can also scum-hunt and thus takes away a part of scum-hunting. (the fact that Mafia are informed and Town are not)
Makes the game too swingy for my liking.
I like Quick's setup but I do not think that even the "veterans" on this site know what the optimal strategies for that kind of game are, so giving it to new mod players would be a nightmare.
Guess I might use it for the Vanilla S-FM queue though.
I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.
[QUOTE=Quick;610472]My point is, if you are going to take from a source where quality is not primary, what is even the point?[/QUOTE]
Because both sides are of the same quality. When something has been played that many times, you have such a decent sample that the numbers are accurate regardless of skill level skew of a few hundred games.
Originally Posted by Quick
My point is, if you are going to take from a source where quality is not primary, what is even the point?
Because both sides are of the same quality. When something has been played that many times, you have such a decent sample that the numbers are accurate regardless of skill level skew of a few hundred games.
[QUOTE=DarknessB;610468]I would think most of us would be concerned with quality over quantity though, given the size of most S-FMs and fact that it can only take one bad apple to ruin the entire bunch / an entire game. Perhaps part of that is greater policing by hosts, FM staff, and the community itself to discourage and / or penalize problematic behavior. I just feel like it's very easy for new players to not get it, not care that they are wrecking games with the behavior, and leave a string of dead slots before they lose interest in the game.
We obviously can't prevent people from signing for games, but I'd argue hosts, the FM staff, and the community should play a larger role in making sure that doesn't happen. As it is, I feel like everyone has an overly laissez-faire attitude and let the problem players fester until dedicated community members leave out of frustration over the decreased quality of play. I realize this is a bit of a tangent, but the point is related in terms of quality > quantity IMO.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand the correlation between people who ruin games and having a setup with fewer Citizens. Am I missing something?
Originally Posted by DarknessB
I would think most of us would be concerned with quality over quantity though, given the size of most S-FMs and fact that it can only take one bad apple to ruin the entire bunch / an entire game. Perhaps part of that is greater policing by hosts, FM staff, and the community itself to discourage and / or penalize problematic behavior. I just feel like it's very easy for new players to not get it, not care that they are wrecking games with the behavior, and leave a string of dead slots before they lose interest in the game.
We obviously can't prevent people from signing for games, but I'd argue hosts, the FM staff, and the community should play a larger role in making sure that doesn't happen. As it is, I feel like everyone has an overly laissez-faire attitude and let the problem players fester until dedicated community members leave out of frustration over the decreased quality of play. I realize this is a bit of a tangent, but the point is related in terms of quality > quantity IMO.
I don't understand the correlation between people who ruin games and having a setup with fewer Citizens. Am I missing something?
[QUOTE=DarknessB;610458]Our site is absolutely terrible with mass claims -- unique roles are not a good thing and give scum nowhere to hide. Many games with a lot of potential have ended with a boring Day 2 mass claim.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. You'll get a few Townies that will literally fake claim because logic.
Originally Posted by DarknessB
Our site is absolutely terrible with mass claims -- unique roles are not a good thing and give scum nowhere to hide. Many games with a lot of potential have ended with a boring Day 2 mass claim.
Agreed. You'll get a few Townies that will literally fake claim because logic.
[QUOTE=Calix;610457]How exactly does this recruitment of the mod players with "natural talent" work? What's the process?
I came to that conclusion based on my experiences with this site, where too many players focus on trying to solve the game using mechanics, setup speculation, host meta, etc, instead of meshing that with their reads on players.
This is something that should change in order to improve the quality of ALL games and it would be nice if we could make that a priority with the new players.[/QUOTE]
You play with people. You are impressed with their play, their actions, ect. You initiate a conversation with them and invite them to play.
Yes, improving the quality of games is definitely a priority, but it is not the purpose of something like this. It is to increase overall traffic.
Please look @ the setup I posted and explain to me how a setup like that would discourage scum hunting.
Originally Posted by Calix
How exactly does this recruitment of the mod players with "natural talent" work? What's the process?
I came to that conclusion based on my experiences with this site, where too many players focus on trying to solve the game using mechanics, setup speculation, host meta, etc, instead of meshing that with their reads on players.
This is something that should change in order to improve the quality of ALL games and it would be nice if we could make that a priority with the new players.
You play with people. You are impressed with their play, their actions, ect. You initiate a conversation with them and invite them to play.
Yes, improving the quality of games is definitely a priority, but it is not the purpose of something like this. It is to increase overall traffic.
Please look @ the setup I posted and explain to me how a setup like that would discourage scum hunting.
[QUOTE=DarknessB;610456]With all due respect, some of the mod players are quite a bit less serious than FM players. This isn't necessarily their fault -- it's more that mod games are 1/2 hour long, are automatically set up by the computer / map, and are fairly predictable for the most part. Dicking around in a mod game isn't too much of a big deal -- you're either going to die fast or your night actions will save the day. Given games are overly quickly, no one really cares if you completely crap out in a mod game vs. an FM.
FM is an entirely different animal and I think there should be an emphasis on recruiting those players who would take well to it. Hardcore lurking, overdependence on night actions, no desire to scumhunt beyond night leads, and excessive trolling are very much negative things that diminish the overall FM experience here. Not saying that FM players aren't guilty of these things themselves, but we should want mod players to realize this isn't just the mod on a forum.
I myself started on the mod so I'm not denigrating mod players, but suggesting there are many of them who want the short attention span type game. If we don't distinguish FM from that type of experience, the quality of games is going to degrade terribly. It doesn't take many inactive players, trolling players, gamethrowing players, etc. to wreck a game -- often times, just one in fact. I see no reason why we shouldn't be shooting to get the cream of the crop from the mod vs. having tons of players who don't particularly take things seriously or want to play well.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that's what I'm saying. We're not recruiting pure trolls, or idiots who don't know how to play. We go out of our way to invite people who have shown promise as an FM player.
I'm not saying to have a game identical to SC2 Mod, I'm saying give it a similar feel. Making them more comfortable with what they're doing, posting more. They are playing something similar to something that are confirmed to enjoy. I've never once stated to have a mass TPR game, but FM can be fun, balanced, and require scum hunting and NOT be 50 Citizens.
Originally Posted by DarknessB
With all due respect, some of the mod players are quite a bit less serious than FM players. This isn't necessarily their fault -- it's more that mod games are 1/2 hour long, are automatically set up by the computer / map, and are fairly predictable for the most part. Dicking around in a mod game isn't too much of a big deal -- you're either going to die fast or your night actions will save the day. Given games are overly quickly, no one really cares if you completely crap out in a mod game vs. an FM.
FM is an entirely different animal and I think there should be an emphasis on recruiting those players who would take well to it. Hardcore lurking, overdependence on night actions, no desire to scumhunt beyond night leads, and excessive trolling are very much negative things that diminish the overall FM experience here. Not saying that FM players aren't guilty of these things themselves, but we should want mod players to realize this isn't just the mod on a forum.
I myself started on the mod so I'm not denigrating mod players, but suggesting there are many of them who want the short attention span type game. If we don't distinguish FM from that type of experience, the quality of games is going to degrade terribly. It doesn't take many inactive players, trolling players, gamethrowing players, etc. to wreck a game -- often times, just one in fact. I see no reason why we shouldn't be shooting to get the cream of the crop from the mod vs. having tons of players who don't particularly take things seriously or want to play well.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. We're not recruiting pure trolls, or idiots who don't know how to play. We go out of our way to invite people who have shown promise as an FM player.
I'm not saying to have a game identical to SC2 Mod, I'm saying give it a similar feel. Making them more comfortable with what they're doing, posting more. They are playing something similar to something that are confirmed to enjoy. I've never once stated to have a mass TPR game, but FM can be fun, balanced, and require scum hunting and NOT be 50 Citizens.
[QUOTE=Calix;610448]Thank you for ignoring the rest of my post to pretend that I was insulting everyone who has ever played the mod. Pray tell, where do you think I come from that I cannot relate to this experience whatsoever?
If someone moves from the mod to FMs, their play IS going to be low-quality because they're not used to playing. Giving them a similar setup to one that they can just play in the mod isn't going to encourage them to stick around.
They will find it far easier to just continue playing the mod if they get the impression that FMs are just a longer version of them.[/QUOTE]
Well it's a ridiculous statement to make. People from the mod already know how to scum hunt.
We're not going on the mod and being like "Hey Man, You sucked shit. You sheeped and lynched 3 fellow Town members and handed the game to the Mafia. Have you ever considered Forum Mafia?". No, we're pulling in people who have at least shown some natural talent. Yes, someone is going to have low-quality FM skills, but they develop it by playing FM.
Just because a FM setup is similar to a SC2 Mod setup, does not mean the games get played the same. How are you coming to that conclusion?
Originally Posted by Calix
Thank you for ignoring the rest of my post to pretend that I was insulting everyone who has ever played the mod. Pray tell, where do you think I come from that I cannot relate to this experience whatsoever?
If someone moves from the mod to FMs, their play IS going to be low-quality because they're not used to playing. Giving them a similar setup to one that they can just play in the mod isn't going to encourage them to stick around.
They will find it far easier to just continue playing the mod if they get the impression that FMs are just a longer version of them.
Well it's a ridiculous statement to make. People from the mod already know how to scum hunt.
We're not going on the mod and being like "Hey Man, You sucked shit. You sheeped and lynched 3 fellow Town members and handed the game to the Mafia. Have you ever considered Forum Mafia?". No, we're pulling in people who have at least shown some natural talent. Yes, someone is going to have low-quality FM skills, but they develop it by playing FM.
Just because a FM setup is similar to a SC2 Mod setup, does not mean the games get played the same. How are you coming to that conclusion?
[QUOTE=Calix;610443]You are the one trying to encourage low-quality players to flood the site without them knowing the basics of how to scum-hunt (which is why you'd pick FMs in the first place...), even though that will make future games worse and discourage people from playing.
None of the regulars are going to want to play with people who don't know how to scum-hunt properly, meaning that they leave for another site, and then the activity drops anyway once most of the new players get bored and go back to the mod. Why would they bother with a two-week FM when they can have a 20-minute mod game?
Again, your strategy is only going to increase activity in the short-term.[/QUOTE]
I know this will shock you, but majority of us came to this site for FM from the Mod. The first games we played were not Mafiosox2, Sheriff, Doc, Cit. We played unique and fun setups that got us hooked on Forum Mafia.
So, please don't insult all of us by saying none of us know how to scum hunt.
Originally Posted by Calix
You are the one trying to encourage low-quality players to flood the site without them knowing the basics of how to scum-hunt (which is why you'd pick FMs in the first place...), even though that will make future games worse and discourage people from playing.
None of the regulars are going to want to play with people who don't know how to scum-hunt properly, meaning that they leave for another site, and then the activity drops anyway once most of the new players get bored and go back to the mod. Why would they bother with a two-week FM when they can have a 20-minute mod game?
Again, your strategy is only going to increase activity in the short-term.
I know this will shock you, but majority of us came to this site for FM from the Mod. The first games we played were not Mafiosox2, Sheriff, Doc, Cit. We played unique and fun setups that got us hooked on Forum Mafia.
So, please don't insult all of us by saying none of us know how to scum hunt.
[QUOTE=MattZed;610439]We don't need to go super basic or TPR fest. There's a comfortable middle ground here with a fair amount of citizens, something like potentially like the setup you proposed. That middle ground is where S-FMs tend to be, anyways.
But let's ask the participants of last time's starter game how they felt.
[MENTION=27821]PowersThatBe[/MENTION], do you think you would have preferred to play the starter game with more or fewer TPRs? (or about the same?)[/QUOTE]
Yea, that's what I'm saying. Did you see the setup I posted? It's like Max 4 TPR, and all 4 of those TPR could be Citizens.
A 1:1:1 Non-Town:TPR:Citizen setup is balanced
Originally Posted by MattZed
We don't need to go super basic or TPR fest. There's a comfortable middle ground here with a fair amount of citizens, something like potentially like the setup you proposed. That middle ground is where S-FMs tend to be, anyways.
But let's ask the participants of last time's starter game how they felt.
@PowersThatBe
, do you think you would have preferred to play the starter game with more or fewer TPRs? (or about the same?)
Yea, that's what I'm saying. Did you see the setup I posted? It's like Max 4 TPR, and all 4 of those TPR could be Citizens.
Pulling players from the SC2 Mod will be more successful if they game more resembles what they're used to and currently enjoy. After they get interested in Forum Mafia, then they will possibly join a high-vanilla game. Maybe some won't, and will wait until a more experimental setup comes open.
If we were pulling players from other sites for this game, or people who have never played Mafia... Sure, then Vanilla would be the way to go. But not with the pool we're pulling players from.
Pulling players from the SC2 Mod will be more successful if they game more resembles what they're used to and currently enjoy. After they get interested in Forum Mafia, then they will possibly join a high-vanilla game. Maybe some won't, and will wait until a more experimental setup comes open.
If we were pulling players from other sites for this game, or people who have never played Mafia... Sure, then Vanilla would be the way to go. But not with the pool we're pulling players from.
[QUOTE=Calix;610435]What exactly is the point of a starter game if it's similar to the mod?
If they don't like majority-vanilla games, then FM isn't for them. It's that simple. If they cannot adjust to Citizens, they aren't suited to play FMs.
If someone doesn't teach them the basics so that they know what they are doing (without relying on a bunch of night actions), then player quality is going to drop even more. (thus making people less inclined to play)
We achieve nothing but a temporary boost in activity with a TPR-fest.[/QUOTE]
That is a piss poor view to have. If they don't view Forum Mafia the way you see it, then they shouldn't play Forum Mafia? The point is to gather new members to increase the demand for ALL setups, not to increase the demand for vanilla setups only.
We want ANY new FM players, not just ones that want to play Citizen vs Mafioso, with a Doctor here and there.
Originally Posted by Calix
What exactly is the point of a starter game if it's similar to the mod?
If they don't like majority-vanilla games, then FM isn't for them. It's that simple. If they cannot adjust to Citizens, they aren't suited to play FMs.
If someone doesn't teach them the basics so that they know what they are doing (without relying on a bunch of night actions), then player quality is going to drop even more. (thus making people less inclined to play)
We achieve nothing but a temporary boost in activity with a TPR-fest.
That is a piss poor view to have. If they don't view Forum Mafia the way you see it, then they shouldn't play Forum Mafia? The point is to gather new members to increase the demand for ALL setups, not to increase the demand for vanilla setups only.
We want ANY new FM players, not just ones that want to play Citizen vs Mafioso, with a Doctor here and there.
[QUOTE=MattZed;610430]There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?[/QUOTE]
To include only non-veteran FM players, so they don't rely on those types of players to lead discussion, ect.
Originally Posted by MattZed
There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?
To include only non-veteran FM players, so they don't rely on those types of players to lead discussion, ect.
[QUOTE=DarknessB;610426]In all seriousness, we could have a couple of interesting flourishes in the Beginner's Game, but the whole point is to keep it simple so people don't get overwhelmed and to give them a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is going to be like. It should be far more about scumhunting and Citizen play than TPR Madness. They will get enough TPR Madness when they sign up for FB's games, lol.[/QUOTE]
They aren't retarded, nor are they children. It's not their first time playing Mafia if we're pulling them from the Mod.
People who play the SC2 Mod are used to a high TPR setup. We should keep the same spirit to maintain interest.
You think someone who plays fast pace Mafia all the time wants to come and play a slow game where no one posts any information because they're not accustomed to so many players having no action? I personally don't think people would have a lot of fun. Would it increase skills? Sure, but that's not what these games are accomplishing. We want people to be interested in what FM has to offer, so a happy medium between SC2 Mafia + Basic Scum Hunting game is definitely the way to go.
Also, you state you want them to have a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is. Most regular S-FMs are not a follow the cop basic game with majority Citizens.
Originally Posted by DarknessB
In all seriousness, we could have a couple of interesting flourishes in the Beginner's Game, but the whole point is to keep it simple so people don't get overwhelmed and to give them a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is going to be like. It should be far more about scumhunting and Citizen play than TPR Madness. They will get enough TPR Madness when they sign up for FB's games, lol.
They aren't retarded, nor are they children. It's not their first time playing Mafia if we're pulling them from the Mod.
People who play the SC2 Mod are used to a high TPR setup. We should keep the same spirit to maintain interest.
You think someone who plays fast pace Mafia all the time wants to come and play a slow game where no one posts any information because they're not accustomed to so many players having no action? I personally don't think people would have a lot of fun. Would it increase skills? Sure, but that's not what these games are accomplishing. We want people to be interested in what FM has to offer, so a happy medium between SC2 Mafia + Basic Scum Hunting game is definitely the way to go.
Also, you state you want them to have a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is. Most regular S-FMs are not a follow the cop basic game with majority Citizens.
IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.
IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.
[QUOTE=Unknown1234;610026]Not sure this comparison is fair, the detective checked a citizen but couldn't know for sure if he was evil or not with two mafioso's and only one performs the night kill.
Sheriff would be overpowered to a point where if Doctor finds sheriff and Doctor stays hidden, the sheriff could keep confirming people's roles. Last game the doctor/detective died n1/n2 respectively.[/QUOTE]
Consort could find the Sheriff, too. Creates a confirmed town, but ties up Doc. It's a fair trade imo
Unless you're talking about the last setup, IDR what the last setup was
Originally Posted by Unknown1234
Not sure this comparison is fair, the detective checked a citizen but couldn't know for sure if he was evil or not with two mafioso's and only one performs the night kill.
Sheriff would be overpowered to a point where if Doctor finds sheriff and Doctor stays hidden, the sheriff could keep confirming people's roles. Last game the doctor/detective died n1/n2 respectively.
Consort could find the Sheriff, too. Creates a confirmed town, but ties up Doc. It's a fair trade imo
Unless you're talking about the last setup, IDR what the last setup was
[QUOTE=DarknessB;609968]Doesn't this assume mostly seasoned players though? Newcomers are not good at scumhunting for the most part. The last beginner's game showed that very clearly. I feel like it's a lot easier to play scum in a game of players who don't really know how to tease out scumreads.[/QUOTE]
But newcomers are also not skilled at playing scum, making scum reads easier. I personally think it evens out; def doesn't close a 14 pt spread. but yes, maybe a 5v2 would be hard for town. maybe 6v2 would be decent to try.
Originally Posted by DarknessB
Doesn't this assume mostly seasoned players though? Newcomers are not good at scumhunting for the most part. The last beginner's game showed that very clearly. I feel like it's a lot easier to play scum in a game of players who don't really know how to tease out scumreads.
But newcomers are also not skilled at playing scum, making scum reads easier. I personally think it evens out; def doesn't close a 14 pt spread. but yes, maybe a 5v2 would be hard for town. maybe 6v2 would be decent to try.
[QUOTE=SuperJack;609872]
If no other option is reach it will basically be:
[COLOR="#00FF00"]Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#FF0000"]Consort
Mafioso[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Town would steamroll this
Originally Posted by SuperJack
If no other option is reach it will basically be:
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Consort
Mafioso
Originally Posted by BananaCucho
I agree with agreeing with that post
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