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[QUOTE=Helz;842022]I favor communication over scum hunting because although yes- you need accurate reads to push in your communication you can not get those reads without skill in communication. Without understanding how others communicate your not going to use any scum hunting logic well and without being able to communicate yourself your not going to be able to dig tells out of other players for your scum hunting.
This is to say Communication is needed for scum hunting and then needed again to push your win condition of eliminating scum.
In a word, I think you are not thinking of the necessity of communication in scum hunting.

I will point out that we jumped from your original question of persuasion to charisma and now I am rephrasing it as communication so let me know if something is lost in translation between our posts. Hopefully this will hit what you are interested in.

This is another really badass question.
I do believe its possible and for a surface level answer its all about tells. In poker a guy may raise you 10$ but do it with 10 1$ chips. This is a classic poker tell where players use multiple lower value chips instead of a large chip and I may assume that he is bluffing. Although his action was the raise the way he did it was a tell.
Back to mafia I always hammer on the fundamentals. I very strongly believe that you can identify a difference between a player with a natural read and a fake read because in a natural read the reasoning matches the certainty level while in a fake read the reasoning is created and scum have to figure out how confident they should present their certainty level. This means there could be an observable tell in the gap between the reasoning and the certainty. So although a players action was to scum read player X I now may have reason to believe that the read was manufactured. I can now say with whatever certainty I have in that tell that the intention behind the action of that players read was not genuine.

Thats one example that hopefully makes sense. I will also say that I try to track a players focus when I read them. Players will usually teach you how they scum hunt while they play by the way they read other players which is useful when your scum or town. You can also look to 90% of players meta reasoning. "He is never this aggressive as town so his action of aggressively pushing to lynch player X is indicative of scum intent" kinda thing.[/QUOTE]

Charisma could be described, in this specific case, as "external communication". Knowing how to "recieve" communication is part of accuracy in my opinion, so we're actually thinking the same way on that point (at least to my understanding). And yes, it's a bit my fault from sliding between related topics haha.

Hmm, that's fair for poker and the potential mafia equivalents.
However, the issue with the example is that determining the level of certainity a player should have about a specific read requires a literal mastery of the game's events, which is very hard to obtain, even though it works extremely well on paper without taking that into account.
I agree with the part about meta, though.

Thanks a lot for taking so much time to answer everyone's questions deeply, by the way. I think that greatly improves everyone's knowledge of the game's theory, and that it should improve our game quality in the future.

Originally Posted by Helz

I favor communication over scum hunting because although yes- you need accurate reads to push in your communication you can not get those reads without skill in communication. Without understanding how others communicate your not going to use any scum hunting logic well and without being able to communicate yourself your not going to be able to dig tells out of other players for your scum hunting.
This is to say Communication is needed for scum hunting and then needed again to push your win condition of eliminating scum.
In a word, I think you are not thinking of the necessity of communication in scum hunting.

I will point out that we jumped from your original question of persuasion to charisma and now I am rephrasing it as communication so let me know if something is lost in translation between our posts. Hopefully this will hit what you are interested in.

This is another really badass question.
I do believe its possible and for a surface level answer its all about tells. In poker a guy may raise you 10$ but do it with 10 1$ chips. This is a classic poker tell where players use multiple lower value chips instead of a large chip and I may assume that he is bluffing. Although his action was the raise the way he did it was a tell.
Back to mafia I always hammer on the fundamentals. I very strongly believe that you can identify a difference between a player with a natural read and a fake read because in a natural read the reasoning matches the certainty level while in a fake read the reasoning is created and scum have to figure out how confident they should present their certainty level. This means there could be an observable tell in the gap between the reasoning and the certainty. So although a players action was to scum read player X I now may have reason to believe that the read was manufactured. I can now say with whatever certainty I have in that tell that the intention behind the action of that players read was not genuine.

Thats one example that hopefully makes sense. I will also say that I try to track a players focus when I read them. Players will usually teach you how they scum hunt while they play by the way they read other players which is useful when your scum or town. You can also look to 90% of players meta reasoning. "He is never this aggressive as town so his action of aggressively pushing to lynch player X is indicative of scum intent" kinda thing.

Charisma could be described, in this specific case, as "external communication". Knowing how to "recieve" communication is part of accuracy in my opinion, so we're actually thinking the same way on that point (at least to my understanding). And yes, it's a bit my fault from sliding between related topics haha.

Hmm, that's fair for poker and the potential mafia equivalents.
However, the issue with the example is that determining the level of certainity a player should have about a specific read requires a literal mastery of the game's events, which is very hard to obtain, even though it works extremely well on paper without taking that into account.
I agree with the part about meta, though.

Thanks a lot for taking so much time to answer everyone's questions deeply, by the way. I think that greatly improves everyone's knowledge of the game's theory, and that it should improve our game quality in the future.

Sorry for late reply to the thread, I still keep up with it but lacked time to write an in-depth reply.

[QUOTE=Helz;841865]I like this question.

I always hammer on the fact that your objective as town is not to identify the scum, it is to eliminate them. I would say that I would shift my focus hard to persuasion if I had a mechanically confirmed scum while also seeing if there was a way to set a trap. I usually don't look at it as trying to convince people the slot is scum but rather as convincing them of the lynch. You always have to have your own reads and such to push but I would say if you were only going to do one of the two persuasion is more important than reads.
You can work around this by triangulating reads though. If you are not great at pushing your read but someone who is holds your reads in high esteem they can push the case for you while you focus on gathering information.
I dont consider manipulation as scummy but I do think its viewed as scummy. I am self aware of how I am viewed in games but I look at it as a reputation. Heres some random words from something I wrote a year or two ago along those lines:

Generally when I see manipulation I always ask why because town totally has reasons to lie and manipulate. Intentions are indicative of alignment and not actions kinda thing.[/QUOTE]

The "eliminate scum, don't just peg them" mindset is indeed something that's lacking on every site I've been on, including this one, and it is also an issue I had to work on myself. While having accurate reads is critical to achieve that goal, I see now that manipulation outside of analysis can be actually towny, with examples coming to mind (Distorted used to do that [I]a lot[/I]). It fits what you say.

There also was that MafiaScum article where the author had listed the "three keys to Mafia" or something similar, which were, in order, Obvtownness, Charisma and Accuracy. [URL="https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mastina/Glossary"]This article[/URL] mentions them as well, even though it's not the one I wanted to find, but you get the idea. I was wondering why charisma was put before accuracy, because if you are a charismatic leader with bad reads, you will simply lead the town to its doom; plus, being right helps making others think you're right, even though it isn't necessary to be right to convince them. Do you think the same, or is there something else you think I didn't take in account?

Of course, seeing intention is much, much more informative than seeing the action (the post). It is also much more difficult. How do you actually detect intention behind someone's actions without begging the question by reading the action to attribute an intention afterwards? Is that even possible? I don't see any way, but the last line of your post makes me think you do.

~~

Helz replied before me, but about "the more you're active, the more you're likely to reveal scumtells" :
That is a correct premise, but revealing scumtells isn't the only thing that matters. Very active scum can control the day chat, just like very active liars in real life can control, to different extents, the public's opinion on them and their policies or products, obvious examples being some politicians and company directors.

Sorry for late reply to the thread, I still keep up with it but lacked time to write an in-depth reply.

Originally Posted by Helz

I like this question.

I always hammer on the fact that your objective as town is not to identify the scum, it is to eliminate them. I would say that I would shift my focus hard to persuasion if I had a mechanically confirmed scum while also seeing if there was a way to set a trap. I usually don't look at it as trying to convince people the slot is scum but rather as convincing them of the lynch. You always have to have your own reads and such to push but I would say if you were only going to do one of the two persuasion is more important than reads.
You can work around this by triangulating reads though. If you are not great at pushing your read but someone who is holds your reads in high esteem they can push the case for you while you focus on gathering information.
I dont consider manipulation as scummy but I do think its viewed as scummy. I am self aware of how I am viewed in games but I look at it as a reputation. Heres some random words from something I wrote a year or two ago along those lines:

Generally when I see manipulation I always ask why because town totally has reasons to lie and manipulate. Intentions are indicative of alignment and not actions kinda thing.

The "eliminate scum, don't just peg them" mindset is indeed something that's lacking on every site I've been on, including this one, and it is also an issue I had to work on myself. While having accurate reads is critical to achieve that goal, I see now that manipulation outside of analysis can be actually towny, with examples coming to mind (Distorted used to do that a lot). It fits what you say.

There also was that MafiaScum article where the author had listed the "three keys to Mafia" or something similar, which were, in order, Obvtownness, Charisma and Accuracy. This article mentions them as well, even though it's not the one I wanted to find, but you get the idea. I was wondering why charisma was put before accuracy, because if you are a charismatic leader with bad reads, you will simply lead the town to its doom; plus, being right helps making others think you're right, even though it isn't necessary to be right to convince them. Do you think the same, or is there something else you think I didn't take in account?

Of course, seeing intention is much, much more informative than seeing the action (the post). It is also much more difficult. How do you actually detect intention behind someone's actions without begging the question by reading the action to attribute an intention afterwards? Is that even possible? I don't see any way, but the last line of your post makes me think you do.

~~

Helz replied before me, but about "the more you're active, the more you're likely to reveal scumtells" :
That is a correct premise, but revealing scumtells isn't the only thing that matters. Very active scum can control the day chat, just like very active liars in real life can control, to different extents, the public's opinion on them and their policies or products, obvious examples being some politicians and company directors.

[QUOTE=aamirus;841963]I do think it’s easier to win as scum if you just talk less. At least in our current meta, we rarely lynch the afks until like D3, at which point if the whole scum team has been afk, it’s often mylo or lylo. I think we operate on a sort of honor system where it’s expected that you won’t intentionally afk cuz that’s.. lame.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. However, that might not be fun to do, and if you do it too often, the site's meta will adapt against it. Another issue with that strategy is that not everyone can use it; for example, I definetly could not use that, EVER. People scumread me for being offline for 10-12 hours and being in the 4 highest post counts, usually. That's for me, but the same goes for some others, namely Magoroth and Distorted, back when he was playing.

Originally Posted by aamirus

I do think it’s easier to win as scum if you just talk less. At least in our current meta, we rarely lynch the afks until like D3, at which point if the whole scum team has been afk, it’s often mylo or lylo. I think we operate on a sort of honor system where it’s expected that you won’t intentionally afk cuz that’s.. lame.

Exactly. However, that might not be fun to do, and if you do it too often, the site's meta will adapt against it. Another issue with that strategy is that not everyone can use it; for example, I definetly could not use that, EVER. People scumread me for being offline for 10-12 hours and being in the 4 highest post counts, usually. That's for me, but the same goes for some others, namely Magoroth and Distorted, back when he was playing.

I completely agree with Magoroth's points about activity, effort, and logic.

[QUOTE=blinkskater;841863]I disagree that indecisiveness is a scum tell because scum are informed, where the town are not.

About activity, i've played a lot recently on other sites, and in my opinion i find it more helpful and protown when there are less oneline posts about this and that, and more solid lengthy posts on player analysis and reads. It's more down to personal preference I think and how you enjoy playing. Lots of players have some time to commit to the game, not a lot. And the majority of the players end up rolling town because scum generally has 2-3 players. So if 3-4 of the players whether they are town or scum are pumping out tons of posts, it turns other town players off because you wake up and there is 500 posts in a 8 hour period sometimes. This can greatly reduce the will of a random town player with minimum time from scouring through every post to solve the game.

Good arguments can be made on either side of the activity spectrum and i really think it comes down to what type of game the player enjoys playing.[/QUOTE]

I agree that it depends on the type of game the player enjoys playing, but it also depends on the players [I]around[/I] yourself. If noone is active, you'll need to create as much activity as you can. In a spammy game, you don't need to do that at all.

I completely agree with Magoroth's points about activity, effort, and logic.

Originally Posted by blinkskater

I disagree that indecisiveness is a scum tell because scum are informed, where the town are not.

About activity, i've played a lot recently on other sites, and in my opinion i find it more helpful and protown when there are less oneline posts about this and that, and more solid lengthy posts on player analysis and reads. It's more down to personal preference I think and how you enjoy playing. Lots of players have some time to commit to the game, not a lot. And the majority of the players end up rolling town because scum generally has 2-3 players. So if 3-4 of the players whether they are town or scum are pumping out tons of posts, it turns other town players off because you wake up and there is 500 posts in a 8 hour period sometimes. This can greatly reduce the will of a random town player with minimum time from scouring through every post to solve the game.

Good arguments can be made on either side of the activity spectrum and i really think it comes down to what type of game the player enjoys playing.

I agree that it depends on the type of game the player enjoys playing, but it also depends on the players around yourself. If noone is active, you'll need to create as much activity as you can. In a spammy game, you don't need to do that at all.

As town, to which extent should one use logic, and to which extent should one use eristic? In other words, when should you have the primary goal to convince others over seeking the truth? There is at least one situation where this is valid, which is the one where someone is mechanically confirmed scum to you, but not to everyone. On a very related topic (it's actually the same question), is manipulating people scummy [I]per se[/I], or is it scummy only when there is "wrong intent"?

As town, to which extent should one use logic, and to which extent should one use eristic? In other words, when should you have the primary goal to convince others over seeking the truth? There is at least one situation where this is valid, which is the one where someone is mechanically confirmed scum to you, but not to everyone. On a very related topic (it's actually the same question), is manipulating people scummy per se, or is it scummy only when there is "wrong intent"?

[QUOTE]As town, you want to decrease entropy.[/QUOTE]


I know that's not the main point of your post, and I agree with the general message of it, but do you see the entropy thing as a rule to follow without exception, or as a general guideline? I've seen intentional entropy pushed by townies (and defused later) solve games to different extents. It was risky, but I believe it almost always paid off.

As town, you want to decrease entropy.

I know that's not the main point of your post, and I agree with the general message of it, but do you see the entropy thing as a rule to follow without exception, or as a general guideline? I've seen intentional entropy pushed by townies (and defused later) solve games to different extents. It was risky, but I believe it almost always paid off.

[QUOTE=OzyWho;841089][MENTION=10617]Helz[/MENTION]
About the 1 hour thing questions - that's a lot of players here. Hence it's relevance to the community and why I brought it up.
The practice vs theory question. Well, this is how it looked from my perspective: I see someone, who I think hasn't played for years, say he has worked on theory during those years. Idk, that was just one of the first questions that came to mind.

Here is another question that I think is especially relevant for this community.
If we look at Town vs Mafia as Solvers vs Pretenders due to TMI, how do you catch pretenders when they don't have to pretend because half town doesn't try to solve either? I'm exaggerating, yes, but I believe this is core reason why meta is at the center of everything here.
I guess I answered the question myself. So I ask this - what's an alternative to meta in this scenario?

[MENTION=29377]Marshmallow Marshall[/MENTION]
That "bad for sleep" wasn't about time constraints. It's about stress and in the middle of the night realizing that something that someone said during the game didn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

Helz is right about the 1 hour thing. If you know that you're never going to be able to put more than an hour per game day into the game, you should probably not sing at all and wait for a better time.

About sleep... well, you could say that about virtually everything :) it's just that you need to "sleep when you sleep", and not do other stuff. That's not really related to Mafia.

Originally Posted by OzyWho

@Helz
About the 1 hour thing questions - that's a lot of players here. Hence it's relevance to the community and why I brought it up.
The practice vs theory question. Well, this is how it looked from my perspective: I see someone, who I think hasn't played for years, say he has worked on theory during those years. Idk, that was just one of the first questions that came to mind.

Here is another question that I think is especially relevant for this community.
If we look at Town vs Mafia as Solvers vs Pretenders due to TMI, how do you catch pretenders when they don't have to pretend because half town doesn't try to solve either? I'm exaggerating, yes, but I believe this is core reason why meta is at the center of everything here.
I guess I answered the question myself. So I ask this - what's an alternative to meta in this scenario?

@Marshmallow Marshall
That "bad for sleep" wasn't about time constraints. It's about stress and in the middle of the night realizing that something that someone said during the game didn't make sense.

Helz is right about the 1 hour thing. If you know that you're never going to be able to put more than an hour per game day into the game, you should probably not sing at all and wait for a better time.

About sleep... well, you could say that about virtually everything it's just that you need to "sleep when you sleep", and not do other stuff. That's not really related to Mafia.

[QUOTE=OzyWho;841056]I don't believe it even exists tbh.[/QUOTE]

I don't believe staff would keep lying to us like this. :P

also, the thread might be more active once the current game ends; it's hard to find topics that won't affect the game if they're asked about.

Originally Posted by OzyWho

I don't believe it even exists tbh.

I don't believe staff would keep lying to us like this. :P

also, the thread might be more active once the current game ends; it's hard to find topics that won't affect the game if they're asked about.

Nice, Helz!

Here's my question. I believe that being seen as town is the most important thing in the game, because you can at least not be a hindrance to your team (whatever it is, unless you're neutral, and even then). It gives you much more charisma. Is playing to be townread, at least in the beginning, a valid style?

[QUOTE=OzyWho;841050][LIST]
[*]Are there any type of reactions or behaviors that you consider universally scummy or towny?
[*]Tips on taking notes? Feels impossible thing to do in practice.
[*]Are there any exercise type of things that make you better at reading people and their intentions?
[*]Are there any exercise type of things that make you better at convincing other people?
[*]List of traps that rookie players generally fall into?
[*]What are some of the most common ways Mafia interact with one another in game thread? scumread/townread/no talk/lots of talk/ignore/..
[*]Let's say you played in a very active game, but you can spend less than an hour on the game per day. How would you make the best use of your time? What if you were a reserve and just subbed into a game with 3k posts already and too had very limited time?
[*]Only I have this problem question: how to keep being friendly, respectful and not engage in bigotry?
[*]Silly question: how to not lose sleep from FM? Actually. I will address this question to [MENTION=29377]Marshmallow Marshall[/MENTION] since he said there is nothing unhealthy about FM...
[*]How do you know your theory works if you don't test it in practice? :weed:
[/LIST][/QUOTE]

It's not my AMA :P I'll just say that: go to sleep if it's impossible. If EoD is in the middle of your sleep schedule, just say it and sleep IMO. Life and health goes first, and if FM actually is [I]attacking[/I] your life, then it's time to take a break. FM is healthy and fun if well used.

Nice, Helz!

Here's my question. I believe that being seen as town is the most important thing in the game, because you can at least not be a hindrance to your team (whatever it is, unless you're neutral, and even then). It gives you much more charisma. Is playing to be townread, at least in the beginning, a valid style?

Originally Posted by OzyWho

• Are there any type of reactions or behaviors that you consider universally scummy or towny?
• Tips on taking notes? Feels impossible thing to do in practice.
• Are there any exercise type of things that make you better at reading people and their intentions?
• Are there any exercise type of things that make you better at convincing other people?
• List of traps that rookie players generally fall into?
• What are some of the most common ways Mafia interact with one another in game thread? scumread/townread/no talk/lots of talk/ignore/..
• Let's say you played in a very active game, but you can spend less than an hour on the game per day. How would you make the best use of your time? What if you were a reserve and just subbed into a game with 3k posts already and too had very limited time?
• Only I have this problem question: how to keep being friendly, respectful and not engage in bigotry?
• Silly question: how to not lose sleep from FM? Actually. I will address this question to @Marshmallow Marshall since he said there is nothing unhealthy about FM...
• How do you know your theory works if you don't test it in practice?

It's not my AMA :P I'll just say that: go to sleep if it's impossible. If EoD is in the middle of your sleep schedule, just say it and sleep IMO. Life and health goes first, and if FM actually is attacking your life, then it's time to take a break. FM is healthy and fun if well used.