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[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610512]If Tailor was in it, I think 1 Charge would be all it could have[/QUOTE]

Actress would cover the potentials that 1-use Tailor would do.

Tailoring a Town can be countered with Last Wills.

Having a Tailor suit Mafia seems redundant when you already have Actress. (a self-tailoring Mafia role) Tailor just makes the Mafia stronger because they have more flexibility.

Any positive benefits that Tailor would add to discussion are already covered by Actress.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

If Tailor was in it, I think 1 Charge would be all it could have

Actress would cover the potentials that 1-use Tailor would do.

Tailoring a Town can be countered with Last Wills.

Having a Tailor suit Mafia seems redundant when you already have Actress. (a self-tailoring Mafia role) Tailor just makes the Mafia stronger because they have more flexibility.

Any positive benefits that Tailor would add to discussion are already covered by Actress.

[QUOTE=MattZed;610509]I'm not sure you get my point about asking for input [I]before[/I] assuming what starter game players would want.

I'm not overly attached to having a Tailor, but I don't consider it outside the realm of "possible new mechanics mod-experienced players can learn."[/QUOTE]

I would not say that Tailors or the like are common enough on our site to be a possibility in a beginner's setup.

Given it's already a game about paranoia, adding them in just seems excessive. As stated earlier, the possibility screws too much with Town's ability to trust the information that the Host gives them in the day post.

As Crypt mentioned, Actress/ Drug Dealer can create discussion. However, Tailor just creates chaos.

Originally Posted by MattZed

I'm not sure you get my point about asking for input before assuming what starter game players would want.

I'm not overly attached to having a Tailor, but I don't consider it outside the realm of "possible new mechanics mod-experienced players can learn."

I would not say that Tailors or the like are common enough on our site to be a possibility in a beginner's setup.

Given it's already a game about paranoia, adding them in just seems excessive. As stated earlier, the possibility screws too much with Town's ability to trust the information that the Host gives them in the day post.

As Crypt mentioned, Actress/ Drug Dealer can create discussion. However, Tailor just creates chaos.

MattZed, I'm not sure that using your mentee as the voice to guide us with making a new starting S-FM is representative or impartial.

MattZed, I'm not sure that using your mentee as the voice to guide us with making a new starting S-FM is representative or impartial.

[QUOTE=Unknown1234;610497]Mafia Wars reference.[/QUOTE]

I agree that having DB be a town-aligned Drug Dealer was indeed troll. Especially given what happened to him :)

Originally Posted by Unknown1234

Mafia Wars reference.

I agree that having DB be a town-aligned Drug Dealer was indeed troll. Especially given what happened to him

[QUOTE=Calix;610492]I feel like some players will already find it challenging enough to adjust to FMs and the site meta here. It's only fair that they have SOME reliable information as a foundation to go forth with.

There are plenty of games here where such roles are not used, so I don't think they're necessary.[/QUOTE]

This is referring to the roles that can change alignment flips.

Originally Posted by Calix

I feel like some players will already find it challenging enough to adjust to FMs and the site meta here. It's only fair that they have SOME reliable information as a foundation to go forth with.

There are plenty of games here where such roles are not used, so I don't think they're necessary.

This is referring to the roles that can change alignment flips.

I feel like some players will already find it challenging enough to adjust to FMs and the site meta here. It's only fair that they have SOME reliable information as a foundation to go forth with.

There are plenty of games here where such roles are not used, so I don't think they're necessary.

I feel like some players will already find it challenging enough to adjust to FMs and the site meta here. It's only fair that they have SOME reliable information as a foundation to go forth with.

There are plenty of games here where such roles are not used, so I don't think they're necessary.

Cryptonic, I still think your favourite 7-player setup is a better option. I would not risk skewing the odds of a Town: Mafia win too much in one direction.

If this setup was used, I don't agree with having a Neutral involved for a first game, given that it means the Mafia can also scum-hunt and thus takes away a part of scum-hunting. (the fact that Mafia are informed and Town are not)

Makes the game too swingy for my liking.

I like Quick's setup but I do not think that even the "veterans" on this site know what the optimal strategies for that kind of game are, so giving it to new mod players would be a nightmare.

Guess I might use it for the Vanilla S-FM queue though.

Cryptonic, I still think your favourite 7-player setup is a better option. I would not risk skewing the odds of a Town: Mafia win too much in one direction.

If this setup was used, I don't agree with having a Neutral involved for a first game, given that it means the Mafia can also scum-hunt and thus takes away a part of scum-hunting. (the fact that Mafia are informed and Town are not)

Makes the game too swingy for my liking.

I like Quick's setup but I do not think that even the "veterans" on this site know what the optimal strategies for that kind of game are, so giving it to new mod players would be a nightmare.

Guess I might use it for the Vanilla S-FM queue though.

If you're concerned about making it FEEL like a mod game, could you not work towards this with role-play?

I am in no way saying that will dress over anything but I think it could help with what you are referring to.

If you're concerned about making it FEEL like a mod game, could you not work towards this with role-play?

I am in no way saying that will dress over anything but I think it could help with what you are referring to.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610452]Well it's a ridiculous statement to make. People from the mod already know how to scum hunt.
We're not going on the mod and being like "Hey Man, You sucked shit. You sheeped and lynched 3 fellow Town members and handed the game to the Mafia. Have you ever considered Forum Mafia?". No, we're pulling in people who have at least shown some natural talent. Yes, someone is going to have low-quality FM skills, but they develop it by playing FM.

Just because a FM setup is similar to a SC2 Mod setup, does not mean the games get played the same. How are you coming to that conclusion?[/QUOTE]

How exactly does this recruitment of the mod players with "natural talent" work? What's the process?

I came to that conclusion based on my experiences with this site, where too many players focus on trying to solve the game using mechanics, setup speculation, host meta, etc, instead of meshing that with their reads on players.

This is something that should change in order to improve the quality of ALL games and it would be nice if we could make that a priority with the new players.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

Well it's a ridiculous statement to make. People from the mod already know how to scum hunt.
We're not going on the mod and being like "Hey Man, You sucked shit. You sheeped and lynched 3 fellow Town members and handed the game to the Mafia. Have you ever considered Forum Mafia?". No, we're pulling in people who have at least shown some natural talent. Yes, someone is going to have low-quality FM skills, but they develop it by playing FM.

Just because a FM setup is similar to a SC2 Mod setup, does not mean the games get played the same. How are you coming to that conclusion?

How exactly does this recruitment of the mod players with "natural talent" work? What's the process?

I came to that conclusion based on my experiences with this site, where too many players focus on trying to solve the game using mechanics, setup speculation, host meta, etc, instead of meshing that with their reads on players.

This is something that should change in order to improve the quality of ALL games and it would be nice if we could make that a priority with the new players.

[QUOTE=PowersThatBe;610451]Maybe. Nothing can ever be said for certain.[/QUOTE]

Romeo & Juliet had unique roles.

Everyone had claimed by Day 2 and scum conceded...in a Cult setup.

Originally Posted by PowersThatBe

Maybe. Nothing can ever be said for certain.

Romeo & Juliet had unique roles.

Everyone had claimed by Day 2 and scum conceded...in a Cult setup.

[QUOTE=PowersThatBe;610447]And I would have preferred a game full of unique roles.[/QUOTE]

That would have led to mass role-claiming and using mechanics > reads to POE the scum.

Originally Posted by PowersThatBe

And I would have preferred a game full of unique roles.

That would have led to mass role-claiming and using mechanics > reads to POE the scum.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610446]I know this will shock you, but majority of us came to this site for FM from the Mod. The first games we played were not Mafiosox2, Sheriff, Doc, Cit. We played unique and fun setups that got us hooked on Forum Mafia.

So, please don't insult all of us by saying none of us know how to scum hunt.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for ignoring the rest of my post to pretend that I was insulting everyone who has ever played the mod. Pray tell, where do you think I come from that I cannot relate to this experience whatsoever?

If someone moves from the mod to FMs, their play IS going to be low-quality because they're not used to playing. Giving them a similar setup to one that they can just play in the mod isn't going to encourage them to stick around.

They will find it far easier to just continue playing the mod if they get the impression that FMs are just a longer version of them.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

I know this will shock you, but majority of us came to this site for FM from the Mod. The first games we played were not Mafiosox2, Sheriff, Doc, Cit. We played unique and fun setups that got us hooked on Forum Mafia.

So, please don't insult all of us by saying none of us know how to scum hunt.

Thank you for ignoring the rest of my post to pretend that I was insulting everyone who has ever played the mod. Pray tell, where do you think I come from that I cannot relate to this experience whatsoever?

If someone moves from the mod to FMs, their play IS going to be low-quality because they're not used to playing. Giving them a similar setup to one that they can just play in the mod isn't going to encourage them to stick around.

They will find it far easier to just continue playing the mod if they get the impression that FMs are just a longer version of them.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610438]That is a piss poor view to have. If they don't view Forum Mafia the way you see it, then they shouldn't play Forum Mafia? The point is to gather new members to increase the demand for ALL setups, not to increase the demand for vanilla setups only.

We want ANY new FM players, not just ones that want to play Citizen vs Mafioso, with a Doctor here and there.[/QUOTE]

You are the one trying to encourage low-quality players to flood the site without them knowing the basics of how to scum-hunt (which is why you'd pick FMs in the first place...), even though that will make future games worse and discourage people from playing.

None of the regulars are going to want to play with people who don't know how to scum-hunt properly, meaning that they leave for another site, and then the activity drops anyway once most of the new players get bored and go back to the mod. Why would they bother with a two-week FM when they can have a 20-minute mod game?

Again, your strategy is only going to increase activity in the short-term.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

That is a piss poor view to have. If they don't view Forum Mafia the way you see it, then they shouldn't play Forum Mafia? The point is to gather new members to increase the demand for ALL setups, not to increase the demand for vanilla setups only.

We want ANY new FM players, not just ones that want to play Citizen vs Mafioso, with a Doctor here and there.

You are the one trying to encourage low-quality players to flood the site without them knowing the basics of how to scum-hunt (which is why you'd pick FMs in the first place...), even though that will make future games worse and discourage people from playing.

None of the regulars are going to want to play with people who don't know how to scum-hunt properly, meaning that they leave for another site, and then the activity drops anyway once most of the new players get bored and go back to the mod. Why would they bother with a two-week FM when they can have a 20-minute mod game?

Again, your strategy is only going to increase activity in the short-term.

What exactly is the point of a starter game if it's similar to the mod?

If they don't like majority-vanilla games, then FM isn't for them. It's that simple. If they cannot adjust to Citizens, they aren't suited to play FMs.

If someone doesn't teach them the basics so that they know what they are doing (without relying on a bunch of night actions), then player quality is going to drop even more. (thus making people less inclined to play)

We achieve nothing but a temporary boost in activity with a TPR-fest.

What exactly is the point of a starter game if it's similar to the mod?

If they don't like majority-vanilla games, then FM isn't for them. It's that simple. If they cannot adjust to Citizens, they aren't suited to play FMs.

If someone doesn't teach them the basics so that they know what they are doing (without relying on a bunch of night actions), then player quality is going to drop even more. (thus making people less inclined to play)

We achieve nothing but a temporary boost in activity with a TPR-fest.