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[QUOTE=Quick;610586]I can't speak for everyone, I sure as hell am NOT arguing that Tailor should be in a beginners game. It is a very advanced role and that needs to be taken into consideration. I don't even suggest most Host to even add the role because of its complexity, but it can be done.[/QUOTE]

Good, my opinion of you just went up -- at least we can agree on this much, Quick.

Originally Posted by Quick

I can't speak for everyone, I sure as hell am NOT arguing that Tailor should be in a beginners game. It is a very advanced role and that needs to be taken into consideration. I don't even suggest most Host to even add the role because of its complexity, but it can be done.

Good, my opinion of you just went up -- at least we can agree on this much, Quick.

As an interruption to this debate, I still think it's hilarious that we're consider Tailor, a role that many veterans [SIZE=3][B]strongly[/B][/SIZE] dislike, as evident by this thread, for a Beginner's Game. I mean, I know we're a trolly site, but this seems like a lot even for our standards. The WIFOM alone would fuck with everyone's heads -- I just see no reason to worry beginners about unreliable graveyard flips in addition to picking up everything else about Forum Mafia.

As an interruption to this debate, I still think it's hilarious that we're consider Tailor, a role that many veterans strongly dislike, as evident by this thread, for a Beginner's Game. I mean, I know we're a trolly site, but this seems like a lot even for our standards. The WIFOM alone would fuck with everyone's heads -- I just see no reason to worry beginners about unreliable graveyard flips in addition to picking up everything else about Forum Mafia.

[QUOTE=BananaCucho;610523]It's too op. Flips are supposed to give you at least some information to analyze. Tailors fuck that up. Unless a coroner or something exists to counter it (which almost never seems to be the case) it shouldn't exist because it takes the information you could have gotten from a successful lynch and turns it into fuckery.

Town is already uninformed and Mafia is a puzzle and the tool town uses to piece together is puzzle is flips and when they lynch a scum that flip should be a reward for successfully lynching, not "okay who mislynched town?" Further, if Tailor exists at all in the roles list that gives an edge to Mafia and they can fake their last wills to make it seem like Tailor exists if they want.

In games with a janitor at least you're clued in that a janitor exists when someone flips ??? in the graveyard, but with Tailor there is no such indication or confirmation until a Tailor is killed.[/QUOTE]

Someone paste this explanation in the next time someone tries to run with a Tailor in a setup.

Originally Posted by BananaCucho

It's too op. Flips are supposed to give you at least some information to analyze. Tailors fuck that up. Unless a coroner or something exists to counter it (which almost never seems to be the case) it shouldn't exist because it takes the information you could have gotten from a successful lynch and turns it into fuckery.

Town is already uninformed and Mafia is a puzzle and the tool town uses to piece together is puzzle is flips and when they lynch a scum that flip should be a reward for successfully lynching, not "okay who mislynched town?" Further, if Tailor exists at all in the roles list that gives an edge to Mafia and they can fake their last wills to make it seem like Tailor exists if they want.

In games with a janitor at least you're clued in that a janitor exists when someone flips ??? in the graveyard, but with Tailor there is no such indication or confirmation until a Tailor is killed.

Someone paste this explanation in the next time someone tries to run with a Tailor in a setup.

[QUOTE=MattZed;610507]It's better to ask him than to presume we automatically know what new players would want. We don't have to limit ourselves to PTB; he's just who I knew was online and that I could pull in here. It doesn't matter if you ask @[URL="https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=28243"]Unknown1234[/URL] or whatnot, the point is that we should be welcoming input from last game's players to decide the setup for this one.[/QUOTE]

Input is fine, but it's a BEGINNER'S GAME -- the whole point isn't to mind fuck them, but let them have the chance to figure stuff out without 18 levels of WIFOM. Many veterans dislike graveyard altering roles (other than Janitor) -- I have no idea why you would want to subject brand new players to it.

Originally Posted by MattZed

It's better to ask him than to presume we automatically know what new players would want. We don't have to limit ourselves to PTB; he's just who I knew was online and that I could pull in here. It doesn't matter if you ask @Unknown1234 or whatnot, the point is that we should be welcoming input from last game's players to decide the setup for this one.

Input is fine, but it's a BEGINNER'S GAME -- the whole point isn't to mind fuck them, but let them have the chance to figure stuff out without 18 levels of WIFOM. Many veterans dislike graveyard altering roles (other than Janitor) -- I have no idea why you would want to subject brand new players to it.

[QUOTE=Calix;610498]I agree that having DB be a town-aligned Drug Dealer was indeed troll. Especially given what happened to him :)[/QUOTE]

For everyone's reference -- roleblocked by FB, recruited by Yuki, and the scum didn't attack (WIFOM trolling), so everyone was on my ass d2 thinking I was the attacking scum member. Gotta love dying because of a unfortunate convergence of three different night actions.

Originally Posted by Calix

I agree that having DB be a town-aligned Drug Dealer was indeed troll. Especially given what happened to him

For everyone's reference -- roleblocked by FB, recruited by Yuki, and the scum didn't attack (WIFOM trolling), so everyone was on my ass d2 thinking I was the attacking scum member. Gotta love dying because of a unfortunate convergence of three different night actions.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610496]It's not to troll, it's to encourage discussion on things like feedback, figuring out who was bussed, was the roleblock real, ect.
How is Drug Dealer trolling?[/QUOTE]

Oh, the Watermeloann Drug Dealer was different than a normal one. When you got drugged, you couldn't use certain letters and if you did, you got modkilled, lol. Toadette fell into the trap and MZ cheated his way around it with find-replace on every post before submitting it.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

It's not to troll, it's to encourage discussion on things like feedback, figuring out who was bussed, was the roleblock real, ect.
How is Drug Dealer trolling?

Oh, the Watermeloann Drug Dealer was different than a normal one. When you got drugged, you couldn't use certain letters and if you did, you got modkilled, lol. Toadette fell into the trap and MZ cheated his way around it with find-replace on every post before submitting it.

[QUOTE=MattZed;610493]We're doing a bit too much speculating about how players in the starter games would feel and not enough actually talking to our newer and prospective players.

Let's summon my mentee again: @[URL="https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=27821"]PowersThatBe[/URL] , how would you have felt if Tailor was a possible role in your starter game?[/QUOTE]

PTB was insanely overactive in that game -- he's not indicative of the average starting player. It's a beginner's game, MZ, not Illuminati. We want them not to be traumatized to the point that they never return. Let them trust the damn graveyard.

Originally Posted by MattZed

We're doing a bit too much speculating about how players in the starter games would feel and not enough actually talking to our newer and prospective players.

Let's summon my mentee again: @PowersThatBe , how would you have felt if Tailor was a possible role in your starter game?

PTB was insanely overactive in that game -- he's not indicative of the average starting player. It's a beginner's game, MZ, not Illuminati. We want them not to be traumatized to the point that they never return. Let them trust the damn graveyard.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610490]Fair enough, but I don't see how Drug Dealer is cruel. It's an extremely common role.[/QUOTE]

I'd like the Drug Dealer from Watermeloann personally, if we're going to troll them, lol.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

Fair enough, but I don't see how Drug Dealer is cruel. It's an extremely common role.

I'd like the Drug Dealer from Watermeloann personally, if we're going to troll them, lol.

[QUOTE=MattZed;610483]None of these roles are especially complicated. And putting them in is precisely the point. The second goal is to get players interested in FM in general, and one way to do that is to show them power roles they wouldn't be able to play in the mod.

But on the note of death-deception: I suggest Coroner be added as a possible town role.[/QUOTE]

Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.

Originally Posted by MattZed

None of these roles are especially complicated. And putting them in is precisely the point. The second goal is to get players interested in FM in general, and one way to do that is to show them power roles they wouldn't be able to play in the mod.

But on the note of death-deception: I suggest Coroner be added as a possible town role.

Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610486]That's because no one wants to play a game they're not actually playing[/QUOTE]

Just depends on the mentors in question and how invested they are in helping new players. I was very active as a mentor in the first game and treated it like I was playing the game in terms of how I followed what was going on. I think we have enough overactive players (Calix, etc.) that we could make the mentor system work -- just needs clearer expectations on the role.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

That's because no one wants to play a game they're not actually playing

Just depends on the mentors in question and how invested they are in helping new players. I was very active as a mentor in the first game and treated it like I was playing the game in terms of how I followed what was going on. I think we have enough overactive players (Calix, etc.) that we could make the mentor system work -- just needs clearer expectations on the role.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610485]The point of roles like Tailor & Drug Dealer being present in the game is the WIFOM it adds as being possible, not the actual presence of the role in the game.[/QUOTE]

Understood -- I would just suggest that our veterans often aren't good at dealing with that WIFOM, much less newcomers, so it might be a little cruel to them in a first game.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

The point of roles like Tailor & Drug Dealer being present in the game is the WIFOM it adds as being possible, not the actual presence of the role in the game.

Understood -- I would just suggest that our veterans often aren't good at dealing with that WIFOM, much less newcomers, so it might be a little cruel to them in a first game.

[QUOTE=Quick;610482]Yes, I see your point. Just asking if you are talking about Unknown or Unknown1234 because PTB is not an average player.

I would, however, like to make a suggestion for newbie games which is to have a sort of mentor or coach that can help the newbs along the way during the game.[/QUOTE]

We had mentors in the last Beginner's Game, except most of them did virtually nothing, lol. Need to pick ones who will be more invested in helping their mentee. Obviously, if the mentees don't want help, that's a different story, but I heard lots of cases of players suffering in silence without help from their mentors in that first game.

Originally Posted by Quick

Yes, I see your point. Just asking if you are talking about Unknown or Unknown1234 because PTB is not an average player.

I would, however, like to make a suggestion for newbie games which is to have a sort of mentor or coach that can help the newbs along the way during the game.

We had mentors in the last Beginner's Game, except most of them did virtually nothing, lol. Need to pick ones who will be more invested in helping their mentee. Obviously, if the mentees don't want help, that's a different story, but I heard lots of cases of players suffering in silence without help from their mentors in that first game.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610478]I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.

[COLOR=#FFFFFF][COLOR=#FF0000]Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#00FF00]Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen[/COLOR]

Possible Hidden [COLOR=#FF0000]Mafia[/COLOR]: [COLOR=#FF0000]Actress[/COLOR], [COLOR=#FF0000]Consigliere[/COLOR], [COLOR=#FF0000]Consort[/COLOR], [COLOR=#FF0000]Drug Dealer[/COLOR], [COLOR=#FF0000]Janitor[/COLOR], [COLOR=#FF0000]Mafioso[/COLOR], [COLOR=#FF0000]Tailor[/COLOR].
Possible Hidden [COLOR=#00FF00]Town[/COLOR]: [COLOR=#00FF00]Architect[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Blacksmith[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Bodyguard[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Bus Driver[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Citizen[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Detective[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Doctor[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Escort[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Mason[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Mayor[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Sheriff[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Veteran[/COLOR], [COLOR=#00FF00]Vigilante[/COLOR].[/COLOR]


This would also be balanced.[/QUOTE]

I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.


This would also be balanced.

I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.

[QUOTE=Quick;610475]I see your point on making the game "interesting" for newbies, but newbies are not going to think "this game didn't have enough PR to be fun for me." On top of that, why add more swing to a mafia game where accurate NA is a bigger deal for a newbie game?[/QUOTE]

Several newbies from the last beginner's game, namely Unknown and PTB, made that exact point, saying they would have preferred more TPRs in their game, which only had two.

Originally Posted by Quick

I see your point on making the game "interesting" for newbies, but newbies are not going to think "this game didn't have enough PR to be fun for me." On top of that, why add more swing to a mafia game where accurate NA is a bigger deal for a newbie game?

Several newbies from the last beginner's game, namely Unknown and PTB, made that exact point, saying they would have preferred more TPRs in their game, which only had two.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610471]I don't understand the correlation between people who ruin games and having a setup with fewer Citizens. Am I missing something?[/QUOTE]

I was addressing more your point about the types of players that we recruit from the mod and needing to be very careful and deliberate about who we encourage to give FM a shot. It really only takes one player to ruin games and players from the outside who aren't familiar with our customs are often more likely to be that type of disruptive person.

The recruiting side is what relates to this discussion -- in the past, players with a heavy presence on the mod's ban list have been recruited to play FM by some members of the community, and I'd argue we need to very careful to ensure those players do not carry that behavior over to FM games, as has occurred in some cases.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

I don't understand the correlation between people who ruin games and having a setup with fewer Citizens. Am I missing something?

I was addressing more your point about the types of players that we recruit from the mod and needing to be very careful and deliberate about who we encourage to give FM a shot. It really only takes one player to ruin games and players from the outside who aren't familiar with our customs are often more likely to be that type of disruptive person.

The recruiting side is what relates to this discussion -- in the past, players with a heavy presence on the mod's ban list have been recruited to play FM by some members of the community, and I'd argue we need to very careful to ensure those players do not carry that behavior over to FM games, as has occurred in some cases.

[QUOTE=Quick;610467][COLOR=#008000]Sheriff
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#FF0000]Mafioso
Mafioso[/COLOR]

This setup takes the most skill of What is actually itt IMO.


As an aside:
1) adding an uber complicated setup is not newbie friendly
2) In my experience Mafia have a better chance of winning in a game with beginners.[/QUOTE]

This is basically Camp Mafia without the tied lynch mechanic. I agree with Crypt that most newbies would find it excessively flat though and we should strive to be a little more lively in terms of fostering longer term interest in the game. On the other hand, I agree with Quick that the Mafia stand a better shot in beginner games because no one knows how to scumhunt and they are informed. Also, lurkers are often given a pass in beginner games because people aren't confident enough to push them.

Originally Posted by Quick

Sheriff
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Mafioso
Mafioso

This setup takes the most skill of What is actually itt IMO.


As an aside:
1) adding an uber complicated setup is not newbie friendly
2) In my experience Mafia have a better chance of winning in a game with beginners.

This is basically Camp Mafia without the tied lynch mechanic. I agree with Crypt that most newbies would find it excessively flat though and we should strive to be a little more lively in terms of fostering longer term interest in the game. On the other hand, I agree with Quick that the Mafia stand a better shot in beginner games because no one knows how to scumhunt and they are informed. Also, lurkers are often given a pass in beginner games because people aren't confident enough to push them.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610462]You play with people. You are impressed with their play, their actions, ect. You initiate a conversation with them and invite them to play.

Yes, improving the quality of games is definitely a priority, but it is not the purpose of something like this. It is to increase overall traffic.


Please look @ the setup I posted and explain to me how a setup like that would discourage scum hunting.[/QUOTE]

I would think most of us would be concerned with quality over quantity though, given the size of most S-FMs and fact that it can only take one bad apple to ruin the entire bunch / an entire game. Perhaps part of that is greater policing by hosts, FM staff, and the community itself to discourage and / or penalize problematic behavior. I just feel like it's very easy for new players to not get it, not care that they are wrecking games with the behavior, and leave a string of dead slots before they lose interest in the game.

We obviously can't prevent people from signing for games, but I'd argue hosts, the FM staff, and the community should play a larger role in making sure that doesn't happen. As it is, I feel like everyone (especially hosts and FM staff) has an overly laissez-faire attitude and let the problem players fester until dedicated community members leave out of frustration over the decreased quality of play / unaddressed issues in games. I realize this is a bit of a tangent, but the point is related in terms of quality > quantity IMO.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

You play with people. You are impressed with their play, their actions, ect. You initiate a conversation with them and invite them to play.

Yes, improving the quality of games is definitely a priority, but it is not the purpose of something like this. It is to increase overall traffic.


Please look @ the setup I posted and explain to me how a setup like that would discourage scum hunting.

I would think most of us would be concerned with quality over quantity though, given the size of most S-FMs and fact that it can only take one bad apple to ruin the entire bunch / an entire game. Perhaps part of that is greater policing by hosts, FM staff, and the community itself to discourage and / or penalize problematic behavior. I just feel like it's very easy for new players to not get it, not care that they are wrecking games with the behavior, and leave a string of dead slots before they lose interest in the game.

We obviously can't prevent people from signing for games, but I'd argue hosts, the FM staff, and the community should play a larger role in making sure that doesn't happen. As it is, I feel like everyone (especially hosts and FM staff) has an overly laissez-faire attitude and let the problem players fester until dedicated community members leave out of frustration over the decreased quality of play / unaddressed issues in games. I realize this is a bit of a tangent, but the point is related in terms of quality > quantity IMO.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610452]We're not going on the mod and being like "Hey Man, You sucked shit. You sheeped and lynched 3 fellow Town members and handed the game to the Mafia. Have you ever considered Forum Mafia?"[/QUOTE]

That's very close to, if not literally, how SuperJack recruits, Crypt -- were you not aware of the "ex-cons for FM" program? :)

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

We're not going on the mod and being like "Hey Man, You sucked shit. You sheeped and lynched 3 fellow Town members and handed the game to the Mafia. Have you ever considered Forum Mafia?"

That's very close to, if not literally, how SuperJack recruits, Crypt -- were you not aware of the "ex-cons for FM" program?

[QUOTE=Calix;610453]Romeo & Juliet had unique roles.

Everyone had claimed by Day 2 and scum conceded...in a Cult setup.[/QUOTE]

Our site is absolutely terrible with mass claims -- unique roles are not a good thing and give scum nowhere to hide. Many games with a lot of potential have ended with a boring Day 2 mass claim.

Originally Posted by Calix

Romeo & Juliet had unique roles.

Everyone had claimed by Day 2 and scum conceded...in a Cult setup.

Our site is absolutely terrible with mass claims -- unique roles are not a good thing and give scum nowhere to hide. Many games with a lot of potential have ended with a boring Day 2 mass claim.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610446]I know this will shock you, but majority of us came to this site for FM from the Mod. The first games we played were not Mafiosox2, Sheriff, Doc, Cit. We played unique and fun setups that got us hooked on Forum Mafia.

So, please don't insult all of us by saying none of us know how to scum hunt.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, some of the mod players are quite a bit less serious than FM players. This isn't necessarily their fault -- it's more that mod games are 1/2 hour long, are automatically set up by the computer / map, and are fairly predictable for the most part. Dicking around in a mod game isn't too much of a big deal -- you're either going to die fast or your night actions will save the day. Given games are overly quickly, no one really cares if you completely crap out in a mod game vs. an FM.

FM is an entirely different animal and I think there should be an emphasis on recruiting those players who would take well to it. Hardcore lurking, overdependence on night actions, no desire to scumhunt beyond night leads, and excessive trolling are very much negative things that diminish the overall FM experience here. Not saying that FM players aren't guilty of these things themselves, but we should want mod players to realize this isn't just the mod on a forum.

I myself started on the mod so I'm not denigrating mod players, but suggesting there are many of them who want the short attention span type game. If we don't distinguish FM from that type of experience, the quality of games is going to degrade terribly. It doesn't take many inactive players, trolling players, gamethrowing players, etc. to wreck a game -- often times, just one in fact. I see no reason why we shouldn't be shooting to get the cream of the crop from the mod vs. having tons of players who don't particularly take things seriously or want to play well.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

I know this will shock you, but majority of us came to this site for FM from the Mod. The first games we played were not Mafiosox2, Sheriff, Doc, Cit. We played unique and fun setups that got us hooked on Forum Mafia.

So, please don't insult all of us by saying none of us know how to scum hunt.

With all due respect, some of the mod players are quite a bit less serious than FM players. This isn't necessarily their fault -- it's more that mod games are 1/2 hour long, are automatically set up by the computer / map, and are fairly predictable for the most part. Dicking around in a mod game isn't too much of a big deal -- you're either going to die fast or your night actions will save the day. Given games are overly quickly, no one really cares if you completely crap out in a mod game vs. an FM.

FM is an entirely different animal and I think there should be an emphasis on recruiting those players who would take well to it. Hardcore lurking, overdependence on night actions, no desire to scumhunt beyond night leads, and excessive trolling are very much negative things that diminish the overall FM experience here. Not saying that FM players aren't guilty of these things themselves, but we should want mod players to realize this isn't just the mod on a forum.

I myself started on the mod so I'm not denigrating mod players, but suggesting there are many of them who want the short attention span type game. If we don't distinguish FM from that type of experience, the quality of games is going to degrade terribly. It doesn't take many inactive players, trolling players, gamethrowing players, etc. to wreck a game -- often times, just one in fact. I see no reason why we shouldn't be shooting to get the cream of the crop from the mod vs. having tons of players who don't particularly take things seriously or want to play well.

[QUOTE=Mesk514;610442]This is @[URL="https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=28200"]Panda[/URL]'s calling to redeem herself.... can i mentor?[/QUOTE]

Ever since Day 2 of last game, she's been too busy with her broads in Atlanta.

Originally Posted by Mesk514

This is @Panda's calling to redeem herself.... can i mentor?

Ever since Day 2 of last game, she's been too busy with her broads in Atlanta.

[QUOTE=MattZed;610434]They were all fairly good games and within the bounds of typical S-FMs. We're not as addicted to investigative roles as you might believe.[/QUOTE]

The host admitted that 196 didn't work out amazingly well. 197 was a randomized nightmare with Mafia and SK winning together (trolly end). Much as I'd like to bash you, at least 199 was close. These were not 3 of our best games, lol.

Originally Posted by MattZed

They were all fairly good games and within the bounds of typical S-FMs. We're not as addicted to investigative roles as you might believe.

The host admitted that 196 didn't work out amazingly well. 197 was a randomized nightmare with Mafia and SK winning together (trolly end). Much as I'd like to bash you, at least 199 was close. These were not 3 of our best games, lol.

[QUOTE=MattZed;610430]There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?[/QUOTE]

Holy shit -- I actually agreed with MZ on something?

Originally Posted by MattZed

There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?

Holy shit -- I actually agreed with MZ on something?

[QUOTE=MattZed;610430]There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?[/QUOTE]

196 was experimental by admission, 197 was 100% role randomized and had a naive sheriff, 199 was a trolly game. This is the reason we're having a vanilla queue, lol.

Originally Posted by MattZed

There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?

196 was experimental by admission, 197 was 100% role randomized and had a naive sheriff, 199 was a trolly game. This is the reason we're having a vanilla queue, lol.

In all seriousness, we could have a couple of interesting flourishes in the Beginner's Game, but the whole point is to keep it simple so people don't get overwhelmed and to give them a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is going to be like. It should be far more about scumhunting and Citizen play than TPR Madness. They will get enough TPR Madness when they sign up for FB's games, lol.

In all seriousness, we could have a couple of interesting flourishes in the Beginner's Game, but the whole point is to keep it simple so people don't get overwhelmed and to give them a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is going to be like. It should be far more about scumhunting and Citizen play than TPR Madness. They will get enough TPR Madness when they sign up for FB's games, lol.

[QUOTE=MattZed;610417]What unique roles do we really have? Tailor? Electromaniac?[/QUOTE]

Archaeologist.

Originally Posted by MattZed

What unique roles do we really have? Tailor? Electromaniac?

Archaeologist.

[QUOTE=MattZed;610414]So what I'm gathering here is that you guys want me to host Illuminati as a newbie game.[/QUOTE]

Nah, Suicide Still Allowed was better. Or Lynch Fetish.

Originally Posted by MattZed

So what I'm gathering here is that you guys want me to host Illuminati as a newbie game.

Nah, Suicide Still Allowed was better. Or Lynch Fetish.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;610399]IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.[/QUOTE]

The answer is S-FM Watermeloann. Nothing else needs to be said in this thread.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

The answer is S-FM Watermeloann. Nothing else needs to be said in this thread.

[QUOTE=secondpassing;610411]This x3[/QUOTE]

This from the guy who wanted to put a MAYOR in the Beginner's Game. Because clearly, newbie Mayors in games have worked out so well -- FF7 was just a lovely game for the Town...

Originally Posted by secondpassing

This x3

This from the guy who wanted to put a MAYOR in the Beginner's Game. Because clearly, newbie Mayors in games have worked out so well -- FF7 was just a lovely game for the Town...

[QUOTE=MattZed;610398]Our new players will likely come from the mod. I think they know how to follow a cop and to put leads in last wills. If you want to help them learn fundamentals, don't give them the crutch of being able to count on an investigative role.[/QUOTE]

Most S-FMs have investigative roles. Why would want to simulate something that isn't the case in 99% of games?

Originally Posted by MattZed

Our new players will likely come from the mod. I think they know how to follow a cop and to put leads in last wills. If you want to help them learn fundamentals, don't give them the crutch of being able to count on an investigative role.

Most S-FMs have investigative roles. Why would want to simulate something that isn't the case in 99% of games?

In terms of fundamentals, I would much rather new players learn how to use a core investigative role like Sheriff (which will appear in many future games for them) than a far more niche role like Bus Driver. I know MZ has a thing for BD, but I'm not sure we should have a no investigative game for newcomers.

A Sheriff is also beneficial in teaching other Town how to recognize soft / hard claims by Sheriffs, clearing players in Last Wills, and other nuts and bolts "how to play / how to react to investigative roles". BD is far more hero ball by the player who rolls it, which is less of the idea of a beginner game.

In terms of fundamentals, I would much rather new players learn how to use a core investigative role like Sheriff (which will appear in many future games for them) than a far more niche role like Bus Driver. I know MZ has a thing for BD, but I'm not sure we should have a no investigative game for newcomers.

A Sheriff is also beneficial in teaching other Town how to recognize soft / hard claims by Sheriffs, clearing players in Last Wills, and other nuts and bolts "how to play / how to react to investigative roles". BD is far more hero ball by the player who rolls it, which is less of the idea of a beginner game.

[QUOTE=Yukitaka Oni;609981]/obverse newbie game v(o.o(<
Gimme dead chat so i can read too. I wanna watch a game v)o.o)-)>[/QUOTE]

Speaking of which, SuperJack, please have a dead chat / observer's chat QT for this game. Don't think there was one last time.

Originally Posted by Yukitaka Oni

/obverse newbie game v(o.o(<
Gimme dead chat so i can read too. I wanna watch a game v)o.o)-)>

Speaking of which, SuperJack, please have a dead chat / observer's chat QT for this game. Don't think there was one last time.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;609961]57% is a huge advantage, though. 14% spread[/QUOTE]

Doesn't this assume mostly seasoned players though? Newcomers are not good at scumhunting for the most part. The last beginner's game showed that very clearly. I feel like it's a lot easier to play scum in a game of players who don't really know how to tease out scumreads.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

57% is a huge advantage, though. 14% spread

Doesn't this assume mostly seasoned players though? Newcomers are not good at scumhunting for the most part. The last beginner's game showed that very clearly. I feel like it's a lot easier to play scum in a game of players who don't really know how to tease out scumreads.

[QUOTE=secondpassing;609955]I think some tips to playing the role should be included in the rolecard. Maybe like outline the usual goals of a citizen or some simple ways to decieve as mafia.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely not -- strategy is extremely subjective and we should not be endorsing approaches on the role card of all places. We have a Wiki and other sections for practice pointers. Players also have the option of a mentor to get advice on how to play a role. The host should not be attempting to push people into strategies in the game instructions.

Originally Posted by secondpassing

I think some tips to playing the role should be included in the rolecard. Maybe like outline the usual goals of a citizen or some simple ways to decieve as mafia.

Absolutely not -- strategy is extremely subjective and we should not be endorsing approaches on the role card of all places. We have a Wiki and other sections for practice pointers. Players also have the option of a mentor to get advice on how to play a role. The host should not be attempting to push people into strategies in the game instructions.

[QUOTE=Cryptonic;609945]Town would steamroll this[/QUOTE]

To be fair, the Town lost the last beginner's game, which was not identical but very similar.

Originally Posted by Cryptonic

Town would steamroll this

To be fair, the Town lost the last beginner's game, which was not identical but very similar.

[QUOTE=Yukitaka Oni;609937]I would request DarknessB and another veteran player in the game v(o.o(< (no calix plz, too op for news)[/QUOTE]

The initial thought had been players with a little bit of experience, but who could benefit from some additional game time -- such as some of our recent newcomers -- Unknown, Mesk, Eggy or some medium experience players who want to practice a little more -- Gyrlander, Funce, AIVION, Mikecall, Secondpassing, etc.

Originally Posted by Yukitaka Oni

I would request DarknessB and another veteran player in the game v(o.o(< (no calix plz, too op for news)

The initial thought had been players with a little bit of experience, but who could benefit from some additional game time -- such as some of our recent newcomers -- Unknown, Mesk, Eggy or some medium experience players who want to practice a little more -- Gyrlander, Funce, AIVION, Mikecall, Secondpassing, etc.

[COLOR=#00ffff]My thoughts in blue below:[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Unknown1234;609885]Well, being able to speak from the previous game, I liked the aspect of not knowing what town roles were in the game.
[COLOR=#00ffff]Last time around, a number of players were confused by the matrix. Given this is the first game for many players, the risk of confusing them seems higher than anything else.[/COLOR] When I was a mafioso, it was perhaps easier to be able to identify which set up we were in knowing there was no consort, but all roles other then consort were possible. Apart from the deception, I think there were potential roles that may have been a problem (such as Jailor) because normally we intend to have lynching games.

[COLOR=#F0FFF0][COLOR=#00FF00]how would the setup change if it was 7 players? As stated it is 7-9 but your setup is for 9 and would change if not 9.[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#00ffff]7 is too small IMO -- you might very well be looking at 5-2 to start, which would go to 4-2 with a mislynch, 3-2 with a night kill. Don't want a very possible Day 2 LYLO situation for newcomers.
[/COLOR]
Interesting to look at maybe more unique roles in game? Don't know if people would get bored as a citizen, I wasn't a citizen so can't say for sure.
[COLOR=#00ffff]Again, it's a beginner's game so you'd rather keep it simple and focus on fundamentals of teaching players to scumhunt, etc. We don't want blingy roles in the game because that makes the game more about the TPRs and less about scumhunting. Better players win and lose based on their reads vs. based on night action madness.[/COLOR]

[/QUOTE]

My thoughts in blue below:

Originally Posted by Unknown1234

Well, being able to speak from the previous game, I liked the aspect of not knowing what town roles were in the game.
Last time around, a number of players were confused by the matrix. Given this is the first game for many players, the risk of confusing them seems higher than anything else. When I was a mafioso, it was perhaps easier to be able to identify which set up we were in knowing there was no consort, but all roles other then consort were possible. Apart from the deception, I think there were potential roles that may have been a problem (such as Jailor) because normally we intend to have lynching games.

how would the setup change if it was 7 players? As stated it is 7-9 but your setup is for 9 and would change if not 9.
7 is too small IMO -- you might very well be looking at 5-2 to start, which would go to 4-2 with a mislynch, 3-2 with a night kill. Don't want a very possible Day 2 LYLO situation for newcomers.

Interesting to look at maybe more unique roles in game? Don't know if people would get bored as a citizen, I wasn't a citizen so can't say for sure.
Again, it's a beginner's game so you'd rather keep it simple and focus on fundamentals of teaching players to scumhunt, etc. We don't want blingy roles in the game because that makes the game more about the TPRs and less about scumhunting. Better players win and lose based on their reads vs. based on night action madness.

Setup looks good to me. Would be helpful to go over some other rule considerations as well:

[LIST=1]
[*]Last Wills -- Presumably allowed.
[*]Posting Requirements -- 5 per day / host's discretion? I would recommend host's discretion to avoid players being able to remain in the game on a technicality even if they are not really participating.
[*]Reserves -- We should have at least a couple of reserves lined up in case players choose to / need to be replaced.
[*]In-Game Vets -- In the interest of shaking it up and spurring conversation, I would be in favor of say 2 more experienced players in this game, but not super experienced.
[*]Mentors -- Can't hurt to allow the new players to have a mentor with whom they can chat with during the game realtime. Sort of like last time, except maybe emphasize that they can use the mentors as much as possible (telling the mentors this too).
[*]Day / Night Cycles -- 48/24?
[/LIST]

Setup looks good to me. Would be helpful to go over some other rule considerations as well:

1. Last Wills -- Presumably allowed.
2. Posting Requirements -- 5 per day / host's discretion? I would recommend host's discretion to avoid players being able to remain in the game on a technicality even if they are not really participating.
3. Reserves -- We should have at least a couple of reserves lined up in case players choose to / need to be replaced.
4. In-Game Vets -- In the interest of shaking it up and spurring conversation, I would be in favor of say 2 more experienced players in this game, but not super experienced.
5. Mentors -- Can't hurt to allow the new players to have a mentor with whom they can chat with during the game realtime. Sort of like last time, except maybe emphasize that they can use the mentors as much as possible (telling the mentors this too).
6. Day / Night Cycles -- 48/24?