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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    SuperJack (1 [L-6]):
    yzb25
    yzb25 (3 [L-4]):
    Marshmallow Marshall, Wiisp, MartinGG99
    Hybrid Richard Dawkins (1 [L-6]):
    Samson
    Dark Magician (1 [L-6]):
    S-FM Magoroth
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    ►►Re: Morality and political affiliations◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Hopefully, but now the ball is in the Democrats' court... we'll see
    Made another thread to avoid derailing this one : )

    https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...-Trumps-Future
  3. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Trumps Future

    Thread Author:Helz

    Post Author:Helz

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    ►►Trumps Future◄◄

    So I poked around and this is what I found for his financial and legal situation. Figured most of the people in this community would get a kick out of this.

    His loans look something like this:

    162 million to the 'Vornado Partnership' due 2021 against a hotel in San Francisco
    285 million to the 'Vornado partnership' due 2022 against a hotel in New York City
    100 million to the bond market due 2022 against a New York city property
    340 million to Deutsche bank from Germany due between 2023 and 2024 against multiple golf courses and hotels, and they can come after Trump's personal assets
    13 million to the bond market due 2024 against a few New York city propertys

    Thats 900 million in loans going to get called in over the next few years with 5 or 6 other loans that were a couple million each I didn't mention. Trumps tax records reflect his property's are not producing enough cash to pay back their loans with business slowing from his public image issues as well as the pandemic. His hotel empire reported an average occupancy of 23% last year.

    All this is further complicated by the New York attorney general investigating him for fraudulently overstating his assets to get business loans which will greatly hurt his ability to get loans right now and his largest lender the Deutsche bank (which he has done business sense the 1990s) has voiced that they will cut ties with him removing his ability to refinance.

    On the legal side things look just as bad:

    Its widely speculated the IRS may come after him for tax evasion for a process known as 'Debt parking' where he loaned 50 million personally from Chicago Unit Acquisition LLC which is a company he owns allowing the company to operate at a loss for the year.

    Then there's the New York attorney general fraud ongoing investigation I mentioned earlier.

    Also the Manhattan district attorney has been issuing subpoenas and questioning witnesses before a grand jury while fighting to the supreme court to obtain corporate documents and tax records to lay the ground work for a wide variety of charges related to Trumps financing and insurance interests.

    The hush-payments thing is still ongoing although the only provable thing is that Trump has falsified business records.

    There are 3 separate ongoing lawsuits that allege failure to seek the consent of Congress before accepting any benefits from foreign states in various ways.

    Then there are some ongoing sexual misconduct lawsuits including one by 'Jean Carroll' which will result in some variety of sexual assault if Trumps DNA is matched to the dress she was wearing at the time of the assault.

    Then theres the issue of Mary Trump vs Donald Trump that claims he and his sons siphoned money away from her inheritance when they were tasked with looking after them (because she was under age when she inherited them.)


    All of this is to say- Trump has a very dark few years coming his way where he could loose his business empire, his personal assets and his freedom. All that without even touching on what happens if the fed decides to go after his illegal actions during his time in office. Historically he has been creative sourcing money but that may not be possible this time around. He will probably have to do some really shady stuff under the table to stay afloat.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    -unvote

    I should make some attempt to do something.
    Someone give me 3 people to Isolate and read through.
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    Wasn't the votes on YZB because he has feelings and people said that is scummy?
    I think Yzb should be one of them given he is in the hot seat at the moment and your questioning the reason for him being there.
  5. Forum:Circlejerk

    Thread:Top500 posters, in order - 2021 edition.

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

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    ►►Re: Top500 posters, in order - 2021 edition.◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    to be fair, older fms often had much less posts from what I have seen. We've had FMs in the past couple years where individual players were going over 1000 posts by themselves. From what I have seen of the ancient ones, they generally wouldn't even break 1000 total
    I wonder if theres a connection there. Like.. Did the site meta change to create higher posts or did people start posting higher because their posts were now counted?

    I do think names like Crypt, Slaol and Creed would easily triple their numbers.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Just because I forgot earlier
    -unvote
    and @bwcPorscha @Goatse @Bahkieh
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magician View Post
    Fixed
    Nah, Its bad play to demand your team sacrifice mechanical tools to make up for your lack of play. If your town thats a very bad mindset to have given if you played better a different slot could be peeked and a scum could be pegged.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Aren't they just one hydra account? I thought it was SamsungLyssa.
    Yeah, Wiisp was talking about Bahkieh so I was saying Bahkieh is in the same boat as SamsungLyssa. I was specifically critical that the hydra had 2 heads and no participation and still am.
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    ►►Re: Why are first cousin marriages allowed in some places◄◄

    Im really trying to avoid jumping into this conversation but there is a joke I like to tell. Read a study years ago that traced out genealogy's and found it takes a maximum of 32 steps to connect any 2 people in the world with an average of like 13 steps. So if we are all related its not 'if' its ok to bang your cousin but rather 'how close of a cousin is ok to bang'

    Throw that at your friends who just got married or had a kid and their awkward looks are hilarious.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiisp View Post
    I forgot about him honestly, he made like 3 posts in 3 weeks?
    Lol. Pretty much.. He is in the same boat as Lyssa but with 1 less head.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Grayswandir- Day killed, will flip soon. I could read through him and give thoughts but I just do not see the point in doing pre-flip association hunting D1 but I will be looking at Samson/Varcon for a few reasons if this slot flips scum.

    Wiisp- Confirmed Town. Would play with again someday : )
    Magoroth- Slip town in his read wall and his 'notes' look very genuine. They line up nicely with both his positions on players as well as his stated confidence level. This guinuinly is my strongest town read. He looks to be pushing in the right ways.
    MartinGG- The process between the readwall posts 349 and 353 struck me as odd. It felt as if he had made an ordered list and then went back through and wrote up reasoning to support that list. There was consistent focus on how players entered the game and I did like the honesty in flat out saying some slots he has no read on but some of it is just weird. Dark magician gets a scum read for his 4th post being when Wiisp asked "yes I am, who are you?" him answering "Your best friend." But then stuff like his reasoning on Yzb25 points very strongly to a scum hunting mindset in a game with no neutral. Mostly pointing out the negatives here but I am a little comfortable with this slot overall.
    Superjack- The two heads fighting was absolute cancer to read but I was serious in my earlier post that I would not be willing to consider this slot for a lynch today. I see lots of pushing everywhere that generates content but I do not see the lynch focus like I would expect from the Mafia.
    Varcon- Varcons posts feel pro town but I do not see a lot of analysis. In contrast Letto II (The slot Varcon replaced) cut heavy to ATE and had a substantial focus on my day-smite gambit that made me feel like PR hunting. This is one of those situations where I very slightly town lean one person and not the other.. Overall I do not think this slot is worth considering for D1 but I am not comfortable with this slot.
    Marshmallow Marshall- MM has taken many pro-town positions and all that but he is also a very good player so I would expect that to be within his scum play. I will specifically note that him pushing against me scum reading Varcon for the Letto replacement is NAI even if Varcon flips scum from my experience with him the time we played before where I outlined exactly how town could break a setup for infinite time to sort players and force the scum to nail the sheriff or loose. He was town there and still pushed against the plan on principal.
    It was also interesting that he did not pick on on me using Gary's replacement reasoning for Letto's which makes me feel like MM/Varcon are not W/W although that was a pretty subtle trap he could have easily stepped over. I do not believe MM should be considered for the D1 lynch at all but more than a few times small things have pinged me on him and I do not share the high town opinion most other players seem to have on his slot right now.

    Samson- Right off the bat my largest issue is that he has quite a few posts and the largest thing of note to me is he did a riddle. I know him personally and doing a riddle is not AI but I feel like with that many posts I should have more of an impression from him. A chunk of his posts seem more focused on putting together a ryme than conveying useful information. I also have a significant bit of trouble with the fact the same slot had its name changed between ownership of 2 players. Makes it shitty to do separate reads on the 2 heads for the 1 slot (Use 375 as a break point for others having this issue). I will look a bit more critically on this slot if Gray flips scum from Pauls play though.
    Bahkieh- I have no reason to call this slot town. Low posts and in those posts I only see some hunting when he is poked to do so. His only original point that looks like scum hunting was that 2 slots had asked others thoughts on etchother in 572. I feel like this fits a 'lurking scum' rather well but its not much to go off of.
    SamsungLyssa- Theres some scum equity here. Heavy lurking and the hand full of posts made donít look great to me. Their opening expressed post control and I had expected concise information in few posts but we ended up with no posts.. A part of me feels a narrative of scum entering the game voicing post control to excuse lurking and then fails to come back.

    I will follow up with DM and Yzb before days end. Would like to look at those two closely.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiisp View Post
    So ya, DM/YZB/Samsung
    Kill and check in these
    I am not done working on a thing yet but this runs in line with my thoughts when you add Bahkieh. Im going to dig into Yzb a bit more because I disagree with some of the reasoning on him many have voiced.

    Just because the hour is late and my SamsungLyssa pressure did nothing I would like to push some nice logic to the town. The town is uninformed while the scum share an active chat with a 3 vote block. This puts things in their favor for controlling the lynch. -But- we have a confirmed town. If we were to sheep our confirmed town it eliminates the scums advantage to swing the lynch. With that said I would encourage players to consider sheeping Wiisp at EOD
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magician View Post
    As I already mention before just go ahead and Green Check me.
    Youíll make my life allot easier in this game.
    This is NAI but if you are town your pretty much saying the town should waste a night action on you because you don't feel like defending yourself or nurturing a pro-town image..

    I hope you are scum because if you are town this is the wrong attitude to have.
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    ►►Re: Morality and political affiliations◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Ehh, that's fair, but comparing what comes close to High Treason (or more accurately, sedition) to business sacking is a bit short-sighted imo. The political impact in the entire country from the Capitol riot goes beyond the impact of looting against simple shop owners everyone will be sad for. It lights up the flames of direct and literal rebellion. On the "human" side of things, I guess you're right, but what you're saying is inaccurate on a larger scale. But anyway, I won't die on that hill lol, just explaining my views here.
    I understand, but if you want to talk about sedition you gotta include the whole CHAZ thing from Seattle. People went as far as to declare it a separate country while armed vigilantes used violence to extort money, enforce their views, and prevent cops/ambulances from entering the area. I would say that goes more than a few steps further than the capitol riot. Considering violence was being used with the goal of a political outcome (defunding police and other nonsense) you could easily even call it Terrorism by definition.

    I just really see the whole 'capitol riot is awful, other riots were ok' thing as some extreme bias. They were both terrible things but the difference in reaction to them strongly reflects both the bias in individuals as well as how we handle situations as a society.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    I'm pretty sure many nazis thought they were doing the best thing in centuries by cleaning the parasites of the aryan race from their sacred superior homeland. Doesn't make them any less immoral. Now, I'm obviously not saying trumpists are immoral like Nazis are. I'm only showing that morality isn't just intent. About trumpists themselves, well, what they do is morally wrong, period. That doesn't make them morally inferior as humans, they may have a very strict and correct moral conduct, but supporting someone who does what Trump did, even if you hate democrats, is absolutely morally wrong. But just like how doing something dumb doesn't make you dumb, doing something morally wrong doesn't make you immoral. It's not like they've been killing people either (although you could argue they did with the pandemic...). I'm not saying all trumpists are monsters lol. Just that they're wrong on many levels, including the moral level.
    Im not sure if we could ever find common ground here. If I supported Hitler back in the day because I did not want my family to be murdered it does not make that action morally wrong. It would make it morally wrong if I supported Hitler because he was killing Jews. Outcomes do not define morality, Intentions do. If they did not manslaughter would not be a charge, you would just get murder if you accidentally caused the death of someone without intent. I actually believe intent is an absolute requirement under the law for a Murder charge (with the exception of 'when accidently caused while committing a crime.)
    Its easy to call supporting the opposing side as a moral wrong and point to Hitler but I think that thought process is an absolute sociological cancer thats killing the unity of America.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    About division, that's 100 % true. I thought you were saying people used to respect opposing opinions by default, not that it was possible before, whereas it isn't now, in the US and, to a lesser extent, in the Western world. Thanks Trump. Stand back and stand by!
    (yes, there is a bit of irony in blaming Trump for political divisions after saying how bad political divisions are, but it's still true ;-;)
    Oh yeah, he instigated the fuck out of that.
    One thing I have my eye on is that he has some massive loans about to be called in and I think its likely some investigation will be done on him. I really hope he looses his public pull because if not he will probably do it again and again as he gets nailed to a wall.
  15. Forum:Circlejerk

    Thread:Top500 posters, in order - 2021 edition.

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

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    ►►Re: Top500 posters, in order - 2021 edition.◄◄

    I think this list is not accurate at all. For many years FM posts were not counted and once they were it did not go back and count the previous posts. If they were I would expect some peoples posts to break 50k and a lot of the older names who haven't come around in a long time to be higher up on the list.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    I guess its about that time...

    32 hours until days end~
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiisp View Post
    ya but I wouldn't worry about it on day 1, unless you have something explicit
    also that second line is pretty gross, don't use that read lol

    but I guess, literally playing against your win-con can easily be seen as not town
    *cough Dark, cough Samsung*
    Lol. I think you know what I am up to : )

    I anticipate game tempo will increase over the last few days. It will be interesting to see what direction people move in given that most of the lobby has not taken many stances in spite of us approaching 900 posts.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Are we seriously going to let yzb slip away with his less-than-amazing list of reads? Is a policy lynch better? I don't think so
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiisp View Post
    What is with this samsung policy yeet?
    Town/Scum > Inactive/Scum as far as value. We can sort active players but if there is 2 heads and they dont contribute for literal weeks of time they won't be any use to the town even if they are town.

    A part of me also thinks they have to be active -somewhere- to have not been replaced although that could be a hydra chat and not necessarily a wolf chat.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    Meh I'm fine with Policy lynch
    -vote SamsungLyssa
    @SamsungLyssa
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    ►►Re: Morality and political affiliations◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    I realize this is a little off topic, but with all the forum discussions and seeing ppl get really heated (sometimes pointlessly) over politics, how do Americans feel about ppl from other countries weighing in on their politics?
    European politics are far less interesting and glamorous, and Iím wondering if thatís really the case or if itís an artifact of getting our information through a filter (the media), whereas for local politics ppl understand the context much better and have a more nuanced view of things. Like in Europe I honestly cannot say I know a politician that I would very strongly support, or a political party as a whole, theyíre all kind of bad and somewhat corrupt over here as far as I can tell.

    In fact, Iím curious what opinions - if any - people have on European politics or news they have heard about Europe. It might be interesting to compare views ppl have on their own shit va foreign.
    I think its kinda fair for other country's to weigh in given how America sticks its nose in every other country's business. At the same time though it can get annoying when someone on the other side of the world acts more informed than I am on how things are in my back yard.. I think a big part of it comes from Americas identity crisis. In many respects Democrats want to do whats best for the world at the expense of America while Republicans want to do whats best for America. That and its not suppressing given the international campaign that was launched by the democratic party 7 or so years ago.

    I find European politics fascinating although I usually only follow some of the tech stuff. Concepts such as declaring an individuals marketing information their intellectual property, preventing data collection on children, and fights over declaring loot boxes gambling have been going on for a while. I watch that stuff because I figure Europe usually takes that first step and then America follows suit 10 years later when public outcry overwhelms lobbyists checkbooks.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Unrelated but flight of the concords is amazing : )
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magician View Post
    Shit I just picked up that your Mafia.
    Do I say anything?
    I would say absolutely yes and Im curious if you were making some point I missed here or playing with the idea of information dissemination. I personally favor voicing stuff for the reasoning in the post you quoted unless I am giving someone enough rope to hang themselves with.
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    ►►Re: Morality and political affiliations◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Attacking the symbol of democracy in a country that takes pride in its institutions and venerates the Constitution like the Bible goes further than attacking business owners. I'm not saying attacking businesses isn't terrible, but no, it is absolutely not equal to what happened at the Capitol. It's not just a riot, it's a direct act of rebellion against the government. It has a much stronger political weight, in addition to being no less violent.
    Maybe we will just have to agree to disagree here. I see one side as attacking people who are not responsible for the things they are angry about and the other as attacking the exact people who are responsible for what they are angry about. I also think its really splitting hairs to say its so much more of a big deal to attack that specific government structure than to attack many many government structures all over the place. I have never personally considered the capitol the "symbol of democracy" and this conversation is probably the first time I have herd it referred to as such. If I were to put that label on a building I would personally associate it more strongly with the White House and I think pop culture does as well given how many movies use an attack on it or its distruction for dramatic effect (Independence day, Olympus Has Fallen, White House Down, and even a clip in Die Hard:Live Free or Die Hard.) Probably the only move reference that comes to mind that featured an attack on the Capitol would be the TV show Designated Survivor. I personally think the sudden veneration for the capitol is purely politically motivated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    What you're talking about isn't a political affiliation, but rather a strategic vote. You aren't affiliated to Democrats if you're voting for them just because you don't want Trump, and you aren't affiliated to Republicans if you're voting for them just because you don't want foreigners to "steal your jobs" (which I agree with, for the record; why take in immigration when your country can't support it? That's off-topic though). I'm talking about those who truly believe what their party is doing is right. Those folks going at Trump rallies aren't just strategic voters, they're praising him lol. Note that this doesn't make them "lesser human beings". It just makes them wrong, on a pragmatic side and, yes, on a moral side. Doing something morally wrong doesn't make you a lesser human being, it just makes you human.
    How are they morally wrong for acting on their beliefs? For an extreme example I read an article about an cannibalistic tribe that believed they had to consume their relatives hearts so their souls would live on in them. As much as I disagree with eating your relatives heart I would have to say they are not morally wrong for doing so considering their motivation.
    This is the key issue. Each side views action in favor of their beliefs as 'progress.' Sure there are hateful human beings out there who are racist or sexist but they are on both sides. You are straight up saying here that people who believe what the republican party is doing and support Trump are morally wrong. I think you should reason out how that works without jumping to some extremes like "Supporting Hitler was wrong." Yes Trump was more overtly corrupt than any prior President but you can't assume peoples motives for supporting him and declare them morally wrong. There is a pool of people who will always fight against the democrats because of things like how horribly Obama care screwed up our health system or how financially incompetently run places like New York and California are regardless of what idiot you stick in office.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    On "we were once able to agree to disagree and respect opposing opinions": There was never such an utopia anywhere. If you're talking about the US, just think about how socialists were treated during the Cold War lol. And in France, protests (and riots) are nearly normal, at least in Paris.
    Things were never this bad and I can not remember a time before the last few years where people viewed political stances that opposed their own as evil. Division has always existed but where it use to be abnormal now it is the norm. Its very rare to see people with opposing political views have a civil conversation now. I agree that a utopia never existed but it use to be the norm for people to respect opposing opinions. Now stick the wrong bumper sticker on your car and you might find a brick through your windshield.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinGG99 View Post
    I would advise reading into something (or lack there of) like that. This game is going to be very lengthy, and some players are going to be so less invested compared to quicker games that the emotion may not be really there at times or they might, y'know, forget the game exists.

    Or at least that's my opinion.
    Still theres 3 heads in wolf chat. More if they have Hydras. There is always a much lower chance of scum missing something than town simply because it only takes 1 wolf to pick up on it for all the wolves to be informed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    "I suspect you because you look upset about the kill"
    That's not scumpaint, that's just a stance. Maybe not the strongest stance ever, especially since it's confirmed to be wrong, but saying Leto had been scumpainting Wisp because he had voiced a suspicion on him is a big stretch.

    Understand thy cryptic posts I do not, therefore my patience begins to rot. Clear stances and opinions on players may you give, so that our reads may prosperously live?


    That would be angleshooting... so no.
    I have a mild townread on Varcron for his caution when it comes to clearing Mag for not realizing Wisp is confirmed town. He had the same reaction I had: yes, it's towny, but giving him a free pass over it is dangerous. He didn't try to make it look like it was nothing, he addressed it, but he also made sure we weren't giving a free pass to potential scum.
    I do not think its angleshooting at all. Its part of our known in game information and something we can apply WIFOM to. Player left- felt unable to preform and didn't want to let their team down, who was their team, apply WIFOM logic-
    Its no different than if 1 person always replaced out when they rolled scum and that meta reasoning was used. I have seen that done multiple times.
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    ►►Re: Morality and political affiliations◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Eh, you're right that democrats and republicans are not nazis or stalinists, so the extreme lack of morality the last two have doesn't apply nearly as strongly to the situation in the US. However, as an absolute, you agree that not all affiliations are equally moral. It's quite hard to disagree with that unless you consider morality doesn't exist in any objective manner, if I'm not mistaken. That means American parties, like all other parties, could be unequal when it comes to morality. Rejecting that possibility is lack of nuance. Demonizing one side or the other also is one.

    Now, if you'll allow me a more controversial stance... Pro-democrats may have rioted, but that was condemned by the party and absolutely not actively incited by it. Pro-republicans broke into the fucking Parliament after their leader told them to go there and protest. Sure, the party said it was bad afterwards, but it's not like it wasn't painfully obvious something exactly like that would happen. Also, Democrats don't tell Antifa or far-left groups in general to "stand back and stand by". They also don't actively divide the country to forward their political agenda, or at least not even remotely close to what Republicans have done. Doing all of that is incredibly harmful to democracy and democratic tradition. I'm not saying Democrats are perfect - far from that, especially since the party is large and emcompasses several political affiliations that would actually form different parties in multi-party countries - but they are at least not severely under the already bad standard of political parties, unlike Republicans. Note that I'm not only talking about competence here, but also about how far they're ready to go to forward their political agenda at the expense of the people. That exists everywhere, but it was way too strong these last years.

    Also, I'm not saying I have zero respect for pro-Republicans. I just don't have much for those in the party itself (i.e. governing people) who decided to follow Trump in his... adventure.
    You are framing one corrupt presidents behavior as the norm for an entire party. The vast majority of people I know only voted Trump because Hillary was such a bad option. They are very anti-socialist and hate how democrats dig up any passion project that comes to mind and throw money at it like a 16 year old girl with her daddys credit card.

    I also really do dislike how people keep framing the capitol riot as 'so much worse' than the innocent business owners having their shops robbed and burnt to the ground. I mean, if you want to talk about republican corruption and evil the way they tricked America into the Iraq war would be a much better example than a riot.

    Regardless Ozy brought up a good point. Religions believing other religions and atheist's are morally wrong makes sense. But political affiliations? If I vote democrat simply to avoid putting a fucktard like Trump in office does that mean I support socialism?If I were to vote republican simply because opening our borders means I will have a much harder time finding work in my industry does that mean I support the rest of the republican addenda?

    This model of persuasion makes me a little sick. It leverages good and evil into political affiliations in a way that justifies extreme behavior and division. As a society we were once able to agree to disagree and respect opposing opinions but now we push our beliefs on others and have escalated to painting the opposing individual as a 'worse human being' for having an opposing opinion. Its a moral and ethical form of ad hominem cleverly injected into conversations in a way thats nearly impossible to address in an interaction. This type of systemic moral attack is more evil than authoritarianism in my opinion and I consider it a cancer in our society that is more dangerous in many ways.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiisp View Post
    Who swapped in for Leto again?
    and I am not at Vacron town yet, Idk why you guys are
    enlighten me please?
    Someone else touched on it but the sub out has some AI potential with stronger pressure on a team scum to preform.
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    ►►Re: Morality and political affiliations◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    I consider authoritarianism as absolutely reprehensible: it results in horrors, as history clearly shows. And to take a more precise example, I'm pretty sure you won't find many people around who think being politically affiliated to nazis isn't morally reprehensible.
    I have a hard time believing all affiliations are equally moral, since they inherently mean their followers lean towards X Y Z morality standards (abortion good/bad, freedom of speech good/bad, social measures good/bad, genocides good/bad, etc.)
    Sure, but in context to my quote I was pointing out someone calling the site a "Far right cesspool."

    I would agree not all affiliations are equally moral but this idea that being a republican or being a democrat is a morally bad affiliation is very toxic. I would like people to consider what it means to go from being able to accept someone holds different political beliefs from yours to judging their political beliefs as morally wrong and yours morally right. I believe there is so very much wrong with that thought process.

    It can be justified by pointing to the extremes of genocide and such but that holds no bearing on the context of Republicrat vs Democran.
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    ►►Re: Should the Bible be taken literally?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I don't expect any love here for what I'm trying to say, this site is after all a known far right cesspool.
    Totally unrelated but I think most of the people here lean left. I wonder if you can set your bias aside and consider what it means that you consider a political affiliation an insult or some sort of morally reprehensible condition.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiisp View Post
    He voted like 5-6 people with reasonings I don't believe he made up, so ya I like him

    Also halz if I sheep your mag read and your wrong I'll hate you. He is clearly jumped around the thread or he isn't actually paying sttention and I idk how I feel about it.
    Im fine with that.

    What pinged you earlier about him? You had him as scum in your early read wall.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    We've seen text walls been sent by scum, for example if we looked at some of Martin's scum games we see lots of in depth "townie" posting only for him to say "GOTCHA!" later in the game.
    Yeah, But I am not town reading him for what he said. Its a perspective slip. If he was scum he would have a chat where Wiisp being host confirmed was discussed over a week ago or something. My town read is very specifically betting on how he did not factor that into his read wall. Instead of shrugging off the easy 'Confirmed town' he provided reasoning for placing that slot in his wall. That is inconsistent for scum given what we know about Mag as a player as well as what we know about the scums perspective. It also does not appear to be mirroring from looking back.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    Don't get me wrong, your reasoning in my eyes is sound and I concur with it mostly; however, that does not mean I will give him a free pass moving onwards.
    I will probably revisit him later in the game if I live long enough although I find that unlikely.

    I think if he is scum the most likely potential is that he mindlessly slapped that read wall together but the things he voiced are valid reflecting he is keeping up with the game.

    @Wiisp What are your thoughts on Marshmallow Marshall?
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    If Mag is indeed scum you just gave him a get out of jail free card by lowering your guard, that is a very bad idea.
    Do you disagree with my reasoning in any way?

    And if people disagree they can simply lynch him without me. I am only 1 vote and you guys have no idea if I am even town.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Not that I disagree, but do you really place your vote for a strict policy lynch here? It's not exactly informative.
    What did yzb do that was pro-town and towny enough to get in that spot? I don't see it.


    This is a good point, although I wouldn't totally exclude scum!Mag for this; it's not impossible he has simply not read scumchat, or that scum are keeping this for the night. It does give him quite a lot of townpoints, though.
    I think it would have to be that he did not read scumchat although I find that doubtful before posting a readwall and the amount of time passed between the smite and his read wall. He does not play the amount of WIFOM for that to have been a bid and I do not see a world where scum have not either laughed at the smite on Grey or said something along the lines of 'damn bro, he got your ass.'

    My town read on Mag is going to carry for quite a few days.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    I am not lynching today:
    Wiisp- Host confirmed Town
    Magoroth- Slip town with high confidence
    Superjack- Strong early play in line with his view of how town should open a game
    Add me as self confirmed and I am left with:

    SamsungLyssa
    MM
    DM
    Gray
    Martin
    YZB
    Varcon
    Samson
    Bahkieh

    for a 33% rng scum shot. Im including Gray because pre flip.

    Im also still voicing willingness to policy lynch on @SamsungLyssa .
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Magoroth View Post
    Here are my notes on people.
    Spoiler : my notes on players :

    Dark Magician
    - Hipshot post screams town to me #115
    - Says heís not taking the game seriously. This is a good policy yeet now. #588
    - Spammy posts #628

    Grayswandir
    - Spammy, first page, but seems town. Then again, did a great job of Ďseeming towní in another game so I wonít fall for that again #40.
    - Gets on train on wisp with a ďI agree!Ē. Itís redundant #181
    - Says Wisp is acting similar to the last scum game. I like this post too Wisp #203
    - Dumb (or maybe scummy) to bring up the ďtoxicĒ post from a while back. HRD agrees with me #251
    - Too aggressive for this game. Deserves to go. #273

    Helz
    - Asking for the archon to differentiate themselves is pro town. #200
    - Better setup read A+
    - I donít see him asking people to pm host reads as scum. Well, maybe I do, but probably not #244
    - Calls out wisp for the early town read. Yikes, I guess I fell for this too #246
    - Calls Richard Dawkins scum for activity reasons. I also expect better #505

    Hybrid Richard Dawkins
    - Lots of fluff role-play posts
    - Colored posts are making it hard to read, especially when they use the dark colors. Going to start skimming
    - Stating helz is hard to read is good.

    Martin
    - Defense of Wisp from Letoís attacks look good #607
    - Another call to get Hawkins to sign their posts.

    Samson
    - Opens with just stupid role play
    - Marshal, Wisp, Yzb scum team #97
    - More riddle garbage. Did this guy even replace? #479
    - I have no discernible reason to think this is town, but the mask on/mask off shit says town to me. Ugh ugh. #686

    Wisp
    - Says something about anon accounts hiding #18
    - Advocates for no role play. Good for figuring out game. Town points #183
    - Advocates for optimal town play. DUH #408

    YZB
    - Good setup read. Only gives feedback on the town roles so /shrug #5
    - 11 posts in and they have town reads on leto and null on other talkers. Scum points #11
    - YZB says I deliver a killer scum game. I donít really recall ever doing that.
    - Telling everyone to discuss the bible and science in another thread is pretty pro town because it stops garbage. Yzb might do this even if they are scum. But I like it anyway #146

    Vacaron
    - Good analysis on yzbís state of mind on the post. This is how mafia should be played. Also A+ to not spamming #8
    - Iím not a fan of his posts #387



    and here's my ranking of people

    Magoroth - No comment here necessary
    Helz - I don't think Helz deserves #1 town, and I realize I'm just town reading him because Helz is a strong player, but that's where the slot is for now.
    Yzb - my note here on yzb is mostly driven by the posts by Leto/vacaron. Initially pegged him as scum, but advocated for some pro town things and is now in this spot
    Vacaron - Leto used to be my top town, but i haven't liked the content in the last few [days?], placing here.
    Wisp - Advocates for a shitton of pro town strategies. I like this slot a lot gameplay wise, but not too sure about alignment
    MM - I was able to pick MM as a hard town in the last game I played. Wasn't able to do it here buddy.
    HRD/SuperJack - Too much spam, didn't want to sign his name. I guess the archon shit is done and you aren't getting yeeted today. I'd like to see your day 2.
    Samson - Riddles and role play, even being asked to stop.
    Dark Magician - Says that they don't care about the game. They can die.


    I'm not a huge fan of how the top of my list sorted itself out, but I like the bottom.

    It feels like I'm missing Bahkeih and SamsungLyssa?

    Also, I am way too fucking tired to go back AGAIN through the list and look for ranking/reads. Game ends on the 26th, right?
    I strongly town read Magoroth for this list.

    There is no way wolves have not discussed how Wisp is host confirmed town in their chat. You are now my 2nd to top town read Magoroth, Congrats : )
  37. Forum:Forum Mafia Discussion

    Thread:Challenge: FM Formula

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

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    ►►Re: Challenge: FM Formula◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Let's imagine this to be a basic FM formula that determines the outcome of the game:


    ( Tt + Th ) - ( St + Sh ) = Outcome
    Where

    Tt = Towns ability to Appear Town.
    Th = Towns ability to Scum Hunt.
    St = Scums ability to Appear Town.
    Sh = Scums ability to derail Scum Hunts.


    The challenge is to make a different formula. A formula that is as complex as possible, with lots of variables presumably.



    And a probability-based question:
    Is this statement true?
    "adding an odd player always increases the mafia winning-chance"
    Like, in a normal FM setup, when you have 12 player slots - adding 1 citizen would always crease the mafia odds of winning?
    It's random statement found here. I understand none of it, but I can read a text and found such a sentence in it.
    Gotta add in towns ability to push their reads, Scums ability to push their reads, Scums ability to manipulate the town, Both sides understanding of strategy, and somehow quantify the value of each of these attributes in ratio to etch other.

    If thats something you want to mess with I would reach out to Lissa from MU. They have a very well set up database up there and she has played with the figures quite a bit. Its not uncommon for me to come up with a concept and reach out to her just for her to be like 'Oh yeah, I already did that a few years back' although I have absolutely no idea how you could really quantify those attributes. The formula you posted you could though by tracking vote patterns and lynch patterns.
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    ►►Re: You're favourite interview.◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    Post your favourite interview and discuss others that people post.

    Here is my favourite, Richard Ayoade stomping over infamous Krishnan Guru-Murthy.



    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jjC3ycS_2js
    I almost feel bad for that guy. That was hilarious.

    I do very much enjoy when people screw with canned conversations and violate social norms. It makes for something that is so much more interesting.
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    ►►Re: You're favourite interview.◄◄

    I am split between Eric Andre and Sean Evans.

    Eric Andre goes out of his way to make his guests uncomfortable and puts them in screwed up situations where you see who they really are while Sean Evans asks lots of really deep questions during a gauntlet of hot sauces on Hot Ones.
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    ►►Re: Effects of high velocity bullets on tissue◄◄

    It is a thing. The Marine Corps actually started mass using a different caliber because our standard A059 Green Tip 5.56 were just punching holes though guys. They would sometimes get all fucked up on steroids and meth before attacking and just wouldn't go down.

    As for a 50 cal I really don't see you surviving that. I am sure its 'possible' given one Green Barret survived after being shot 42 times or some shit but the exit wounds on those things are absolutely massive. Like.. Fist sized holes. There's nowhere that could hit you in your torso without it wrecking vital organs. If you want to see it I am sure theres websites you could watch 50 cal snipers go to work. That caliber will straight up turn a body to soup and heads pop like a watermelon you stuffed an M80 into.

    Spoiler : Graphic story from when I was in Afghanistan :

    I was not there but I did see the video of it my buddy took. A guy was shot with a 50 cal in his torso but was so jacked on whatever he kept right on running for a while. His intestines were dragging a few feet behind him as he ran. He didn't make it very far before he dropped but it was pretty crazy to see a guy still running in that condition.

    Also energy transfer is a huge issue. Even if you get shot in body armor and the bullets dont pierce you all that energy has still slammed into your body and it can shut down your heart. This is the exact reason for the 'double tap' in the chest in your typical failure drill (2 to the chest 1 to the head) so even if you dont do killing damage you can still just shut their body down.

    With the 50 cal in particular I have herd the pressure displacement from the bullet going by you can kill you if it zips by your head. A part of this is caused because bullets are essentially a cone; which is a form of right triangle. The hypotenuse of a triangle is longer than its rise so the air displaced as the bullet moves through it has to travel a farther distance than the rise (which is why sub-sonic rounds often produce super sonic displacement.) If you picture a boat's wake as it zips through water that's what's happening in the air, but bullets have lots and lots of energy so that wake can do some damage.

    This is also the exact reason for hollow points and Hydra-Shok rounds to exist. To avoid just blowing through a person and instead release that energy and that lead into their body.

    Someday go to a gun store and just ask to see a 50 cal round and it will probably give you perspective on what your asking.
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    ►►Re: Should the Bible be taken literally?◄◄

    Its an interesting conversation to have next time you meet someone who insists they must take the Bible literally. Asking them why they don't take the time to understand the true meaning of the words or why some books were excluded usually opens their mind a little.

    There is also the circular reasoning of 'How do you know the bible is the infallible word of God?'
    'The bible told me so'
    'Ok.. If I tell you I have never lied am I lying?'

    I have had a few of these conversations and usually end up spending hours with those people who come knocking on my door to spread their religion. Its kinda funny to see the mental gymnastics they pull as they realize how very little their belief system is built on and how much they have never considered.
  42. ►►Re: 70 million pissed off republicans and not one city burned to the ground.◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayswandir View Post
    Do you think Republican protests will become more violent in coming years? You mentioned thinking ppl will try to assassinate (public figures?), do you think it will be restricted to just that kind of protesting? The news Iím reading suggest a deep division between Republicans and Democrats. I mean half the country loves Trump to death and the other hate his guts. With how violent and polarized the political atmosphere seems to have become there, I wouldnít be surprised if dialogue broke down completely (if it even exists anymore), and with it large scale chaos would emerge. Maybe Iím exaggerating but Iím thinking something like ppl legit forming mobs and beating ppl from the Ďotherí party due to all the pent up frustration and anger.
    I mean.. Thats already happened to some degree. I was watching a thing on this team of ANTIFA guys who would pick fights with republicans. One would argue to distract him, then another would mace him in the face and a third would hit him with their fist or an object from the side or behind. There was even one dude that got killed being smashed in the back of the head with a brick at one point.

    I do think they will become more violent. But I think that violence will be much more focused and directed than it was with the other protests. The logic structure of the two pushes is very different.

    BLM:
    Black people are poor and in prison so society must be against them so lets burn down society and steal the things
    A cop killed a black man so all cops are racist so lets attack cops

    Trumpsters:
    The government is now illegitimate and I have no voice in society so lets attack the government
    The election was rigged and politicians did it so lets attack politicians

    I honestly think its more like 1/3 of republicans that love Trump but they are the most vocal about it. For most I think he was the lesser of two evils and many republicans are very anti-socialism.
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    ►►Re: Should the Bible be taken literally?◄◄

    One thing I always try to get people to focus on is 'what is the Bible'. At the end of the day its a collection of books. But those books were chosen by men and others men decided not to include. Still yet other 'books' were not found until after the Bible was set to its format.

    Then you have to consider language and etymology. Most of the Bible was written in Hebrew and translated multiple times into what we read now. Also language itself evolves and words change meaning over time. 100 years back 'Cute' may mean 'small' while today we associate it with 'adorable.' This is the reason pretty much every Christian theology program has some focus on studying Hebrew.

    Then you should consider context. According to Deuteronomy 25 if a man dies and hasn't had a kid with his wife she can demand his brother bang her. If that guy says no, she can drag him in front of some village elders and spit in his face. I don't think even the most hardcore religious zealots would support that sort of thing in these days and I don't even know where I would go to find a 'Village Elder.'

    And finally just considering what it means if the bible is literal is some really dark shit. If God is all powerful and all knowing then he created us while knowing every action we would take, but yet then damns souls to eternal torment in hell for living life out the way he created them. This is even talked about in Exodus and Romans in context to how the Pharaoh was basically created for destruction. Consider what justice that is to be a creature that is created by God for the purpose of being tormented for eternity after living a life you had no control over.

    I think the truth is that people just like things that justify and reinforce their beliefs. The Bible is a very big book and you can pretty much make it say anything you want if you want to ignore context, and mix & match translations. I never understood the massive push to demand that the Bible is the infallible word of God or the idea of ignoring context and taking it literally. I very much do think people should practice the basic religious process of identifying a system of values and reconciling your behavior to those values though.


    Btw.. I am very curious if our community is mature enough to handle this thread.
  44. ►►Re: 70 million pissed off republicans and not one city burned to the ground.◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    From the rioter's pov, trump didn't officially lose until the day of the riots when congress certified the votes
    That may be true for some but its also worth noting the day of the riot the election was not certified so Trump had not lost yet. The entire public 'reason' for that gathering was to 'cheer on the congressmen pushing to stop the steal' or some nonsense.

    In context to the conversation its about how differently two movements are expressing their discontent. I just felt election day was when the people I know who are on that Trump Train started loosing their minds. I don't think its fair to split hairs about 'having a reason to riot'. If people are motivated enough for thousands to get together and express they are angry that potential exists regardless of if it stays a peaceful protest or turns into a riot; and I think that restraint is kind of the point of this thread.

    We could even examine how the violence that does exist is directed to identify patterns that reflect differences between the two sides..
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    It just says Video unavailable but seems to be called the Riot Song. Lol
  45. ►►Re: 70 million pissed off republicans and not one city burned to the ground.◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    but for the capitol riots, the time since trump lost to them was 0 days. That was the whole point lol. Why would they bother rioting during all the time they believed trump had won?
    I am not sure I understand what you mean. The election results were pretty blatant on December 4th.

    There were lots of protests arguing for stuff like 'Stop the Steal' and such. They actually started in early November but thats kind of erroneous given the subject of this thread.
  46. ►►Re: 70 million pissed off republicans and not one city burned to the ground.◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    The government is less of a threat than a bunch of people who decide to have a "well-formed Militia" and who declare whatever the hell they want to because they have guns.
    I feel like you have to add in a 'right now' to that statement. The second amendment was a balancing factor for the future.

    I pretty much think the government is just a bunch of people who declare whatever they want because they have guns. Think about bullshit traffic tickets. They are given under the justification of public safety but I am sure we all have friends who have gotten a ticket because they rolled down a hill without riding the breaks and a cop nailed them. Then he gives you a ticket with the ultimate end result that you have to give the city money or things will eventually escalate to violence or the loss of your freedom. This issue is underscored by the fact every district in America limited police interaction to matters of public safety and what was the first thing to get shut off? Traffic Tickets. So if by their own actions they acknowledge they are not protecting public safety how is what they are doing very different than a thug robbing you?
    Think back to they tale of Robin Hood where the corrupt sheriff 'Taxed' his citizens with silly justifications until the local lord trained a militia and pushed back. Or spaghetti westerns where the town rises up against bandits forming a militia. Classic stories illustrate the reason for our 2nd amendment to exist.

    Militias also function under local governments. Its like the 'volunteer fire department' but the military's version. Im sure you have read about the minute men in the revolutionary war or watched 'The Patriot'
  47. ►►Re: 70 million pissed off republicans and not one city burned to the ground.◄◄

    Actually I want to fuck with this now.
    This projects 1-2 billion in damage just from May 26-June 8 https://www.axios.com/riots-cost-pro...9db4cea9c.html
    Wikipedia shows 27 people killed in the riots from May 27th to August 29th. I have a good bit of trouble finding a relevant count so Im just using that and I will note this does not include things like people murdering police in protest of George Floyd or whatever.

    So if we take May 26 as the start day and December 3rd as the end its 191 days
    If we take the 13 day period and project the cost per day on the lowest end at 1 billion we get roughly 76.9 million per day. Multiply that by the duration of the riots and we get 14.692 Billion dollars so the riots probably cost between 14-29 billion total.
    If we take 27 dead people and divide that by the 94 days we get .099 dead people per day we get .287 dead people per day

    By the new york times 5 people died in the Capitol Riot and I have not been able to find any news on any other election riots sense the election.
    If we take December 3rd as the start day and end it today theres 44 days
    So if we take 5 dead people and divide that by the 44 days we get .113 dead people per day

    So the pre-election riots cost is something like 77 million dollars and .287 lives per day.
    And the post-election riots cost XXX (We can figure this out when cleanup/repair estimates are given) and .113 lives per day.
  48. ►►Re: 70 million pissed off republicans and not one city burned to the ground.◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    sO. Now we multiply that by time so they are equally able to measure it!

    say. 5 monthsish. 150 days.
    Wouldent you have to include the amount of time there have not been riots sense Trump lost? Thats like 1.3 months for 1 riot vs 6ish months for 150 riots if you wanted to scale it using those numbers and still underscores the original point of this thread.
  49. ►►Re: 70 million pissed off republicans and not one city burned to the ground.◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    I might be making this up, but I remember reading how the first reaction to vehicles from many people was to see these machines as these awful, dangerous things that could easily kill 10s of people with just a slight jerk of the steering wheel. The automobile companies actually needed to place pressures/incentives on newspapers to publish favourable stories about automobiles and effectively "victim blame" people who were careless enough to die in accidents, and make sure to place blame squarely on drivers rather than cars. I mean, I see cars as a little more important to a modern society's function than guns, but I can acknowledge that culturally guns mean jackshit to me so it's only natural it'd seem utterly bizarre when Americans get so worked up about holding onto them.

    As someone with cringe levels of ignorance about military strategy, I'd just like to ask - How much of a difference does the prevalence of guns in America make to the government's ability to transition to an authoritarian regime? The US military seems insanely powerful, and I thought it was mainly the political barriers that were preventing such a thing from happening.
    Thats just about what my understanding is. I believe the origin of the term 'Jay walking' resulted from that. Back in the day calling someone a 'Jay' was a very disrespectful term and automobile manufacturers were concerned because of the number of people being injured by vehicles. They launched a huge advertising campaign blaming the people who were hit by cars for being ignorant for being in the streets. Prior to then roads were just walked on and used by horses.
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    ►►Re: S-FM Eternal Conflict (Off Queue Game Ongoing)◄◄

    Magoroth only has 2 posts but neither look bad. I can't say I am able to make any read on him though given scum could easily make such posts but his tone is nice.
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