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[QUOTE=Veliaire;950096]What of people who join a lobby hosted by someone with a save they know they don't like, only to leave and start a new lobby as soon as the game starts? Is that a reportable griefing offense?[/QUOTE]

People choosing not to play your save and leaving before the game starts is NOT reportable.

Joining the lobby does not mean they want to play the host's save, they can repick the host in-game.
Even if they fail to repick, they are free to choose whether they want to play or not.

What IS reportable:
* Leave training - Encouraging others to leave together with them
* Role quitting - Quitting right after getting an undesired role

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;950084]What is the rule, if there is any, on hosting a rigged save? When I say rigged, it is when a host clearly gives the most overpowered settings to certain roles then prefers them while blacklisting others.

Do you just avoid them? Do you just leave them?[/QUOTE]

You can leave before the game starts, but you cannot encourage others to leave, e.g. "Shit save I'm leaving, everybody join me to remake"

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;950084]The most recent such save I can recount, without naming any specific player, had given veteran unlimited alerts, and while this may sound like nothing, but when the veteran (host) goes into play, he will most certainly be guaranteed to be confirmed by day 2, and with no evils being able to kill him during nights, it feels extremely overpowered and unfair to others because how do you get others to lynch a confirmed veteran from day 2? It gives the host unrivalled advantage over the outcome of the game and unless evils play extremely smart, you can not win against the veteran.

Sure, it is within the host's power to modify saves and use his point privilege to prefer and blacklist roles, but it almost feels like it is cheating, not to mention unfun[/QUOTE]

100% valid concerns.

Originally Posted by Veliaire

What of people who join a lobby hosted by someone with a save they know they don't like, only to leave and start a new lobby as soon as the game starts? Is that a reportable griefing offense?

People choosing not to play your save and leaving before the game starts is NOT reportable.

Joining the lobby does not mean they want to play the host's save, they can repick the host in-game.
Even if they fail to repick, they are free to choose whether they want to play or not.

What IS reportable:
* Leave training - Encouraging others to leave together with them
* Role quitting - Quitting right after getting an undesired role

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

What is the rule, if there is any, on hosting a rigged save? When I say rigged, it is when a host clearly gives the most overpowered settings to certain roles then prefers them while blacklisting others.

Do you just avoid them? Do you just leave them?

You can leave before the game starts, but you cannot encourage others to leave, e.g. "Shit save I'm leaving, everybody join me to remake"

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

The most recent such save I can recount, without naming any specific player, had given veteran unlimited alerts, and while this may sound like nothing, but when the veteran (host) goes into play, he will most certainly be guaranteed to be confirmed by day 2, and with no evils being able to kill him during nights, it feels extremely overpowered and unfair to others because how do you get others to lynch a confirmed veteran from day 2? It gives the host unrivalled advantage over the outcome of the game and unless evils play extremely smart, you can not win against the veteran.

Sure, it is within the host's power to modify saves and use his point privilege to prefer and blacklist roles, but it almost feels like it is cheating, not to mention unfun

100% valid concerns.

[QUOTE=ikarusdk;950112]I believe it should be removed, as there is no counter play to this. We only won that game because evils were lucky and towns weren't very responsive. But I can just imagine how one sided it would be otherwise.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Veliaire;950113]It's called not targeting the veteran. That's how you win. Mafia wins ties. Mafia can have an interro kill him. Mafia can have a Judge kill him. And if I'm not mistaken, the veteran killed more towns than evils did in that game.[/QUOTE]

Kidnapper and Judge are not guaranteed to be in the game.
Assuming there's no Kidnapper & Judge, Mafia has no counterplay to unlimited alert Veteran.

Mafia can try to kill enough Town in order to have sufficient votes to lynch the Veteran during the day.
However this seems to be an unlikely outcome to me.

If the Veteran is confirmed early in the game, he can collect roles and LWs and suss out the evils fairly quick.
Like a Town Gov except unkillable at night.
That is a ridiculous amount of power to give to any one player.

Your counterargument that the Veteran killed more Town in a particular match doesn't mean anything.
Incompetent players can goof up even the strongest of roles.
When discussing balance, we should consider the role in the hands of competent players.

See my previous reply about Mafia being a team game, deduction is only half of the game, and glory hogs.

Originally Posted by ikarusdk

I believe it should be removed, as there is no counter play to this. We only won that game because evils were lucky and towns weren't very responsive. But I can just imagine how one sided it would be otherwise.

Originally Posted by Veliaire

It's called not targeting the veteran. That's how you win. Mafia wins ties. Mafia can have an interro kill him. Mafia can have a Judge kill him. And if I'm not mistaken, the veteran killed more towns than evils did in that game.

Kidnapper and Judge are not guaranteed to be in the game.
Assuming there's no Kidnapper & Judge, Mafia has no counterplay to unlimited alert Veteran.

Mafia can try to kill enough Town in order to have sufficient votes to lynch the Veteran during the day.
However this seems to be an unlikely outcome to me.

If the Veteran is confirmed early in the game, he can collect roles and LWs and suss out the evils fairly quick.
Like a Town Gov except unkillable at night.
That is a ridiculous amount of power to give to any one player.

Your counterargument that the Veteran killed more Town in a particular match doesn't mean anything.
Incompetent players can goof up even the strongest of roles.
When discussing balance, we should consider the role in the hands of competent players.

See my previous reply about Mafia being a team game, deduction is only half of the game, and glory hogs.

Not surprised that Velly wants to make Town Killing roles OP.

LOL @ unlimited alerts Veteran & 100% Jailor with unlimited executions. I'm surprised he didn't give Vigilante unlimited shots.

I think Velly doesn't understand the core concepts of Mafia: Deduction and social interaction.

Making an easily-confirmed OP Town role completely goes against the spirit of the game.
In the past, there were criticisms about other OP Town roles for the same reason (Marshall with 2x4 lynches, Mayor with 4 votes, Investigators that detect exact role, etc).

Firstly, there's no social interaction needed for an OP Town Killing role.
You don't need to convince Town to vote with you, you can just execute / shoot at night.

Secondly, there's no deduction involved with an easily-confirmed Town role.
Once you showcase your unlimited executions, vigi shot, alert, you are confirmed Town without a doubt.

Under usual settings, you CAN'T solo carry the Town as a Jailor / Vigilante no matter how good you are, because you have a limited number of attacks.
Even though being a confirmed role gives you a huge advantage, you STILL need to be a team player and work with the rest of Town to flush out the evils.
In saves where Jailor only gets 1 execution, the added uncertainty whether they're Jailor or Kidnapper further balances out their strong night ability.

I think Velly has explained before that OP Jailors / Vigilantes / Veterans still need to know what they're doing, or they will just misuse their power and harm Town instead.
That's true - But deduction is only half of the game.
Even if a Jailor / Vigilante is good at deducing the evils, he SHOULDN'T be able to carry the game on his own, that's not what Mafia is about.

Velly fails to grasp the fundamentals of Mafia.
He has said before that there were many occasions when he sussed out the evils, but was let down by a lousy Town.
Maybe he should work on his social skills instead of making Town roles OP in order to rely solely on his deduction skills.

Mafia is a team game.
Anyone who tweaks settings to make a lone wolf viable is a glory hog.

Not surprised that Velly wants to make Town Killing roles OP.

LOL @ unlimited alerts Veteran & 100% Jailor with unlimited executions. I'm surprised he didn't give Vigilante unlimited shots.

I think Velly doesn't understand the core concepts of Mafia: Deduction and social interaction.

Making an easily-confirmed OP Town role completely goes against the spirit of the game.
In the past, there were criticisms about other OP Town roles for the same reason (Marshall with 2x4 lynches, Mayor with 4 votes, Investigators that detect exact role, etc).

Firstly, there's no social interaction needed for an OP Town Killing role.
You don't need to convince Town to vote with you, you can just execute / shoot at night.

Secondly, there's no deduction involved with an easily-confirmed Town role.
Once you showcase your unlimited executions, vigi shot, alert, you are confirmed Town without a doubt.

Under usual settings, you CAN'T solo carry the Town as a Jailor / Vigilante no matter how good you are, because you have a limited number of attacks.
Even though being a confirmed role gives you a huge advantage, you STILL need to be a team player and work with the rest of Town to flush out the evils.
In saves where Jailor only gets 1 execution, the added uncertainty whether they're Jailor or Kidnapper further balances out their strong night ability.

I think Velly has explained before that OP Jailors / Vigilantes / Veterans still need to know what they're doing, or they will just misuse their power and harm Town instead.
That's true - But deduction is only half of the game.
Even if a Jailor / Vigilante is good at deducing the evils, he SHOULDN'T be able to carry the game on his own, that's not what Mafia is about.

Velly fails to grasp the fundamentals of Mafia.
He has said before that there were many occasions when he sussed out the evils, but was let down by a lousy Town.
Maybe he should work on his social skills instead of making Town roles OP in order to rely solely on his deduction skills.

Mafia is a team game.
Anyone who tweaks settings to make a lone wolf viable is a glory hog.