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  1. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Gay or Straight?

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
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    124

    ►►Re: Gay or Straight?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Yeah, this was the only thing giving me a pause in my original assumption. Somehow I still ended up thinking it's a guy song not a girl song until I checked the gender. Go figure \_(ツ)_/
    I am not sure if it matters when you are dealing with a voice taking a position as questionable as this one. If its a girl or guy talking about how they are a bad guy by fucking your dad its wayy into taboo territory..
  2. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Gay or Straight?

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    4
    Views
    124

    ►►Re: Gay or Straight?◄◄

    I duno. Theres a line at the start about brused knees that implys blowjobs and could be gay but its quickly followed up with a comment about making your mom sad and your girlfriend mad which suggests a girl. I do not think girlfriends get upset about cute boys but I am not bisexual so it could totally be a thing?

    Im leaning straight with the perspective fitting more in line with both Billie Elish as a girl and the song talking about behaviors that are the epitome of a bad teenage girl.

    -edit
    Or maybe its intentionally ambiguous to allow the listener to apply their own meaning. That has kinda become popular in an age where people have little to say and instead lean on others interpretation to make their messages seem 'profound'
  3. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Ultra nerdy question

    Thread Author:Helz

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    5
    Views
    122

    ►►Re: Ultra nerdy question◄◄

    Thanks for the heads up
    Quote Originally Posted by oops_ur_dead View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "base 8 hybrid 10"
    I thought it was called something like "base 8 hybrid 10". Given your reaction I am probably very wrong there. Something about how your still counting in a base 10 system (1-10 before starting over) but then the computer is using chunks of 8.
  4. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Ultra nerdy question

    Thread Author:Helz

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    5
    Views
    122

    ►►Ultra nerdy question◄◄

    So I get the 10 base number system. We have 10 fingers or whatever so it makes sense

    I get the 12 base number system everyone hates on. There are many factors that make it kinda better but it totally is stupid when measuring in a base twelve and calculating in a base 10

    What I have never questioned until now and am curious about is why the base 8 hybrid 10 for programming? I am 'good enough' to do figure out and do what I consider basic programming stuff but I am curious if anyone has a deeper understanding to whats going on here. It just looks as irrational as the 60 second, 60 minute 12 hour twice system we see in clocks..

    (Also.. Anyone have any clue wtf the French were thinking with the clock thing?)
  5. Forum:Setup Workshop

    Thread:S-FM: Belly Crisis

    Thread Author:louiswill

    Post Author:Helz

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    3,599

    ►►Re: S-FM: Belly Crisis◄◄

    I played one of these. Might have been the one before this one.

    It was a weird economy twist on Mafia in a big multiball where each faction could kinda side for or against etch other (but not with everyone). It was kinda so different it was not even really Mafia but did have the lynch cycles.
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    ►►Re: Frost Giant Studios vs Dreamhaven◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Helz View Post
    I would bet hard on Dreamhaven. Mike Morhaime was one of the Blizzard co-founders and helped build the place making the iconic games we loved like Starcraft and Diablo. He was the big factor holding back Activisions greed until he couldn't any more and left. I have a personal love for any video game business man that pushes against 'post sale revenue' or 'microtransactions' in the way big industry is trying.

    One major point in their favor is financing. They are super solid and have no 'need' to push some half cooked game out to make money. Keeping suits out of art is a huge driving factor to make a product people fall in love with imo..

    Another is that Activision has flatly said they will focus on post sale revenue and mobile games. They want to be the next EA pumping out titles like Madden making billions without any actual development. This means terrible things for the future of things like Starcraft and Diablo (even if you dismiss the fact Blizzard just lost all their long term talent.) Considering they have all but abandoned Starcraft there will be a gap there and in an interview it was said Dreamhavens 'Moonshot Studios' first big project is gona be an RTS. I bet that will become Koreas new national sport and I bet they will do it right given its what will launch their company. (Secret Door they said will focus more on indy games and passion projects.)

    But at the same time I just dont know all that much about Frost Giant Studios. I like the names I dont know if they take a hard line against greedy industry practices..

    -edit
    Oh wow.. I think I got the studios completely backwards or something. Its been so long sense had looked into this. Forget everything I just said >.<
    So to unfuck myself and get my facts straight..

    I found some of the stuff I was reading 8 or 10 months ago, One part of interest is that DreamHaven's name is kinda a punch in the dick to Activision. This is some ramblings by Mike Morhaime:

    “We’re almost trying to create a haven for creators who want an environment that is development-friendly, values product, and player experience over short-term financial pressures; We believe in the power of gaming to bring people together and as an escape of the unpleasant things that reality can bring. In that sense, it’s a haven as well."
    “We like the imagery of a lighthouse as a beacon, and that inspires us because we hope that Dreamhaven can be a beacon of hope to others in the industry who share our values and philosophies, there is a better way of approaching business and game creation that can work and be sustainable and be a lot of fun and yield positive results."

    In context this came after Activision went full greed causing a big chunk of blizzard to split off. Pretty much everything they are saying is a big 'fuck you' to the greed in the gaming industry.

    I was also totally confusing the first project of the companies. Frost Giant is indeed the one working on the RTS. Dream Haven's first big one under moonshot is rumored to be some kinda RPG or maybe MMORPG. But I was correct about Dream Haven starting privately funded. It appeals to me quite a bit that the entire company message is to push against sole loyalty to shareholders.

    I still have to look into Frost Giant more but @OzyWho when you mentioned Kevin Dong I knew I knew that name. He is the Team Liquid guy that did some super badass stuff to support the SC2 modding community. Lots of love for him.
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    ►►Re: Frost Giant Studios vs Dreamhaven◄◄

    I would bet hard on Dreamhaven. Mike Morhaime was one of the Blizzard co-founders and helped build the place making the iconic games we loved like Starcraft and Diablo. He was the big factor holding back Activisions greed until he couldn't any more and left. I have a personal love for any video game business man that pushes against 'post sale revenue' or 'microtransactions' in the way big industry is trying.

    One major point in their favor is financing. They are super solid and have no 'need' to push some half cooked game out to make money. Keeping suits out of art is a huge driving factor to make a product people fall in love with imo..

    Another is that Activision has flatly said they will focus on post sale revenue and mobile games. They want to be the next EA pumping out titles like Madden making billions without any actual development. This means terrible things for the future of things like Starcraft and Diablo (even if you dismiss the fact Blizzard just lost all their long term talent.) Considering they have all but abandoned Starcraft there will be a gap there and in an interview it was said Dreamhavens 'Moonshot Studios' first big project is gona be an RTS. I bet that will become Koreas new national sport and I bet they will do it right given its what will launch their company. (Secret Door they said will focus more on indy games and passion projects.)

    But at the same time I just dont know all that much about Frost Giant Studios. I like the names I dont know if they take a hard line against greedy industry practices..

    -edit
    Oh wow.. I think I got the studios completely backwards or something. Its been so long sense had looked into this. Forget everything I just said >.<
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    ►►Re: Totally not a setup but I need a place to scribble : )◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    Identifying what works for you

    Only thing 90% of people read and then just use confirmation bias because someone you thought u were scum reading for a good reason flipped scum even tho ur reason was dumb
    Yeah. Thats a good part of why I wanted to come up with some formal process with methods and goals to improve. I feel like the question of 'how do I get better' is a subject nothing has answered so people end up doing whatever is comfortable..

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Sounds too black and white for FM tbh. The intent that is.
    Yeah, you probably have a point. There is also the issue that a huge portion of this is just 'how I see things' which is itself biased and subjective. I am almost certainly very wrong about at least something in a scope this large..


    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    [COLOR="#FFFFFF"]>.<[/
    COLOR]!!!!


    is heWOwOElz having a mewental breakdown?!?
    Lol.
    Its just my creative process. Whats here is bits from some 30 or so text files. There is still another 60 or so but many of them are redundant. Also a a good bit of this is stuff I wrote in 2015 or 2016 and my views have changed.

    All I end up doing is jumping around and hitting at little bits at a time but when I just look at the project as a whole its just kinda daunting. Sometimes just starting to move takes effort (for me at least) but once I get moving its good.
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    ►►Re: Totally not a setup but I need a place to scribble : )◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Well then, be your own worst critic and listen to constructive criticism from others. If you're not ready to do that, you're probably not ready to read a long guide either, so this is a non-issue.
    My hope is when its all done it will be more of a tool than a guide. Like people use a dictionary or something where it could be used to understand things while providing some understanding of whats out there. The size of this thing when its done will be moderately ridiculous for an article imo
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    ►►Re: Totally not a setup but I need a place to scribble : )◄◄

    I swear. Every time I start doing this again I step back, look at it and my noodle melts because there is just so fucking much shit I have no idea where to start >.<

    Now I get to think to myself, Once this piece is done I am probably at the 60% mark
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    ►►Re: Totally not a setup but I need a place to scribble : )◄◄

    Lol!

    So I am gona be fumbling about dumping notes here then working on stuffs. I normally do this portion in Excel but I wanted to see if its easier while I can see how the formatting goes before trying to tackle the part where everything gest combined, formatted, referenced and probably rewritten.. Feel free to contribute or ask about anything you guys want

    -edit
    For those interested this was the broad concept I drew up in 2016 https://ibb.co/L5tC0VN
  12. Forum:Forum Mafia Discussion

    Thread:Doublethink

    Thread Author:Marshmallow Marshall

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
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    Views
    475

    ►►Re: Doublethink◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    I've had this thought and decided to share it here, both for the sake of sharing something interesting and to know if it made sense.



    Given that scum can be caught by perspective "slips", or more exactly perspective dissonances, and given that those dissonances are quite common, the concept of doublethink is interesting for successful scumplay. The possibility of convincing yourself that you are town and do not know the scum, even though you have read your rolecard, could prevent perspective dissonances. Therefore, "fooling yourself" while remaining in control (to push mislynches instead of teammate lynches, for instance) could be the key to the most natural and effective form of scumplay ever. You'd basically have to be O'Brien for the duration of the game. That seems... interesting.
    @Marshmallow Marshall
    Would you care if I used this in some paraphrased form in a guide?
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    ►►Totally not a setup but I need a place to scribble : )◄◄

    Player Improvement
    Identifying what works for you
    -Scale usefullness of hunting techniques (no bullshit quantify?)

    Forcing different playstyle limitations
    Fewest posts possible
    Fewest words possible
    Eliminating the scum hunting method you depend on
    Using only a scum hunting method you want to improve on
    Power wolf, Lead town, Lurk, Roleplay ect

    Understanding your perspective bias
    Too scummy to be scum fallacy in line with projecting your level of skill onto others / overestimate others skill as fos
    Counter feeling of 'caught but caught for bullshit reason' -If they caught you you triggerd something in their mind

    Analize what has worked and has not worked for you (Stop ate if it gets you lynched) (Stop using meta if it fucks you ect.)

    This is something I was working on to provide a path for player improvement and a bit of a work in progress but this is how I see it:

    Beginner-
    Basic understanding of voting, game mechanics, and roles

    Novice-
    Basic understanding of WIFOM, seeding, tells, traps, and simple mechanical hunting
    Can use and understands the commonly used mafia slang/abbreviations
    Grasps basic strategy's like RvS, and follow the cop

    Intermediate-
    Some ability to scum hunt past depending on Meta, Gut reads, and simple mechanical hunting
    Ability to avoid being scum read by default as town
    Understands the majority of mafia slang/abbreviations
    Comfortable enough to play as scum and work within a wolf team without going for a lurk win or screwing your team mates
    Some ability to lead a town and guide their focus
    Grasps general strategies
    Understands how to set up traps and gambits as well as how to pull information from their use without getting themselves lynched
    Can comfortably play many game types (Vanilla, PR heavy, Multiball, Mashups, Turbo, Real life, Skype, ect..)

    Advanced-
    Can evaluate setups to understand what tells to focus on and what strategies to use
    Can sometimes spot other players seeding and picks up on small details
    Ability to form reads through multiple methods and communicate those reads to other players effectively and persuasively
    Ability to manipulate how they are read by others as needed
    Effective at leading a town and guiding their focus
    Some ability to Power wolf, push misslynches, track town bias, and lead a scum team
    Ability to gambit effectively and set traps, has some understanding of more subtle maneuvers
    Can comfortably play on multiple sites

    Expert-
    Mastery of using Mechanical hunting, Wagonomics, and Theory crafting in tandem
    Strong understanding most scum hunting methods and when one should be favored over another
    Understands the majority of strategies and when they should be used
    Ability to peg scum players on D1 with some confidence
    Comfortable power wolfing, always tracks town bias and can push misslynches effectively
    Understanding of game tempo / timing to reveal information, use gambits, and push for days end lynch
    Ability to shade a player for lynch days in advance
    Strong understanding of how to track town Bias to manipulate a mislynch
    Ability to communicate subtly in day chat
    Can use Game Theory to identify optimal play or leverage sub-optimal play to submarine the town
    Has some understanding of the overall Mafia/werewolf community to include the sites and players of note

    Master-
    Can push a misslynch so effectively they are not even scum read for doing so post flip, sometimes gets town read by players for scum reading them because their reasoning is so good
    Innovates and creates effective strategies
    Ability to manipulate how others are read by others through various methods
    Ability to manipulate overall game moral as necessary
    Ability to recognize how days will play out before the day starts through experience
    Mastery of evading lynches
    Ability to recognize and read players in context to how they understand the game
    Comfortable pulling FPS gambits
    Regularly picks up on subtle communication between other players and seeding
    Wins fucking championships

    I don't think skill can be strictly quantified but I do feel that a list like this could be made and players could be roughly categorized in a general way. My goal in building this is to allow players to go through the list themselves and help them cut through the 'cherry picking' nature we all have to point to our good plays and say we are good.


    Technique to improve- Break your posts into deductive logic outlining what another poster said as well as your argument

    Devlemont Strategy
    -Restrict posts
    -Play to weaknesses
    -Read before posting
    -Slow down and post with intent
    -Break down arguments identifying their appeals, claim and warrant



    Town Play///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
    Add tips section?

    Town Power Role
    Town Block
    Evaluating Gamestate for hunting

    Seeding peeks/actions
    As a Town Power Role it can be very useful to 'seed' or hint at a night action you took. Doing so gives you a strong defense if you end up counter claimed by a scum in a 1v1 as well as allows the town to recognize what action you took after you died. This is particularly critical for a Sheriff or Alignment Cop. Its common practice for a sheriff to reveal their peek as their first read in a read wall or sneak in a hint that will be understood in hindsight (like "I town read this guy so hard I would town read his slot even if it got subbed out") It is a fine line to walk of seeding in such a way that you are not identified by the scum but its still obvious enough for people to notice after your dead. As a sheriff you can equally seed a scum read in a read wall easy enough.

    N0 Sheriff Peek Shelter
    In some setups a Sheriff or Alignment Cop will start D1 knowing 1 player is Town. If this is the case all town players should (preferably in their first post) claim an N0 town peek on a random player. This way when the sheriff dies everyone can look back at his first post and know who is a confirmed town without requiring the Sheriff to take his peek to his grave or risk revealing himself to voice who he checked. This is considered basic play and a general expected norm in pretty much every site I have played Mafia/Werewolf.

    Random Vote Stage (RVS)
    To play day chat there has to be reasoning to analyze. The objective of RVS is to create that reasoning from nothing (given a game starts with 0 posts to talk about). This is done by casting a vote on another player with as strong of reasoning as possible. As the pattern continues and votes are cast the reasoning gets stronger and less 'random' allowing to 'break RVS' which is where the game really starts. It is critical as town to push to break RVS as rapidly as possible because the day is limited and its where you get to hunt. Scum will want RVS to last as long as possible as their goal is to not be caught and get back to the night phase so they can kill. Just remember to do this you should always give a reason. A random vote does absolutely nothing to break RVS.
    Spoiler : Example :
    Sally votes John giving the reasoning that 'he smells funny'

    Camila votes John agreeing with Sally

    Santiago votes Camila pointing out he vote is opportunistic and she is just jumping on a train (At this point a small reason for a vote has been created out of nothing)

    It can also be of value to Gambit yourself as Lynch bait to break RVS (See Gambits)

    Alternative to RVS
    Instead of building information off vote reasoning you can generate reasoning by analyzing the setup and strategizing about how town should react to potential situations. This is particularly viable in setups that are Power role or Game mechanic heavy. One advantage of this is that it can help town identify situations that would help or hurt them while allowing players to get familiar with the setup. I have often seen debates over how a situation should be delt with break RVS faster than the random votes would have and the setup speculation can be a nice excuse to fake a 'scum slip' to gambit yourself as lynch bait in a way thats not damning.

    Share Information
    As town I believe its generally better to reveal pertinent information you notice unless you have a reason not to. This is because it only takes 1 member of the Mafia team to notice something in order for them all to be aware while each individual town member has to notice that information to be aware. By doing so you reduce the information advantage a well oiled scum team shares.
    Reasons to hide information could include potential Town Power Role indicators, not alerting a potential scum you are onto them so they can keep slipping, or noticing a potential gambit in play that would be ruined if you revealed the it.

    Never express you will not lynch while you vote
    I can not stress this enough. The power of your vote is a threat to lynch, the moment you vote but express you are not willing to lynch your vote means nothing. Your vote is one of the few tools at your disposal to add pressure and weight to your voice and you should never give that up as Town. I generally always voice my votes intention Change to express reasoning with vote/add more scenarios for voting

    Mutt and Jeff Technique
    (More commonly known as good cop bad cop interrogation technique.) It builds trust with a suspect leveraging their primal desire for protection from a threat making them more cooperative and fostering a desire for the suspect to please the 'Good cop.' I have found this to be extremely useful and can be used when a target player is under heavy pressure from others by you acting as the 'good cop'. A particular way I commonly use it is on a player that is at substantial risk of being lynched. By pointing out they will likely be lynched and after the fact with their alignment confirmed via flip, anything they say now holds great value you leverage a towns motivation to secure their win even after death while a scum player would actively want to avoid giving information and instead just focus on survival. In this way you get a win/win if they participate, a town indicator if they work hard to dump their minds for the town after they flip, and a scum indicator if they instead choose to go quiet or hardline focus on their survival.

    Gambits Subsection? Add Notes/Tips?
    -Lynch bait
    This is essentially a trap play by allowing yourself to appear as an easy lynch target and see who jumps on you. The belief is that because scum have to make up reads they often go for low hanging fruit that will make an easy pressure target and that by making yourself appear as an easy lynch / obvious scum for a moment you can draw them out. This is a decent strategy but it has potential to backfire if the player attempting it is unable to dig himself out of the hole he created. Some plays will be viewed as ‘scum slips’ with the claim that it was a lynchbait play being viewed as scum trying to distance themselves from this slip. I have seen scum capitalize on a players lynchbait play to push through a mislynch and walk out blameless on the other side. When using this play its good to leave some kind of crumb you can reference back to in order to show that it was a planned ‘slip’ if you are going to use a damning item to draw attention.

    -Fake Cop
    This is exactly what it sounds like. A player claims to be a Cop with a damning night peek on another player to gauge their reaction as well as the reactions of other players in the game. This can be an effective although somewhat disruptive play that usually derails any other town train in progress.



    Triangulating (Communication to use different part of brain) Find reference again


    When trying to figure out the game take the time to question yourself when people post opinions that disagree from a position you support. There is something in Engineering control theory has something called a feedback loop. Basically if you remove negative feedback the loop always goes divergent and chaotic. A balance is necessary because it keeps you (or the town as a whole) from drifting to an extreme. Many great players struggle to move past their hubris resulting in occasional blunders they look back on and say “Man I should have known better”

    Weighing the value of a lynch
    This is strictly a town play but can be used by scum to manipulate a lynch. The basic idea is that you can break down potential lynches into a raw evaluation of cost / benefit in order to identify the best lynch. At face value this sounds as simple as ‘Lynch the most likely scum’ but it is actually much more complicated. What if there are multiple scum teams? What if there are multiple trains on players you read as scum? How do you objectively weigh which player is most likely scum? These are some very basic concepts to keep in mind that may assist you in making these tough calls.

    -Identifying a good D1 lynch target
    For your D1 lynch you should evaluate 3 areas on the target-
    ‘How certain are you that this slot is scum,’
    This is obvious and unfortunately the only thing most people think about when picking a lynch target.
    ‘What information will you gain from the players flip,’
    Think about association reads, how players pushed on the player, what
    ‘How valuable will this player be to helping you solve the game if he is town’
    By breaking this down you will be able to peg a good D1 lynch target. You need to force players to give reasoning on the train in order to create material you can work with the following day; this way if he flips town you can look at players reasoning behind their votes. A ‘policy lynch’ on a lurker or non-participating player is always a terrible idea D1 as that if it flips town you just killed a townie and gained absolutely nothing from that train.

    -Sorting a damning PR result on a player you Town Read
    In general use Occam's to sort a scum peek on your town read. If your evaluating night actions and in the players defense he points out some scenario where he could be town but it requires 2 other PR’s doing some exact action in a 20 player game just evaluate that probability and compare it to your certainty that the player is town. If you are not die hard certain that he is town you should grudgingly lynch the slot. (This is assuming it is early game and there is no reason for scum to gambit a peek, In a Lynch or Loose situation treat it as a 1v1 and cut back to analysis. Never go IIoA in these situations)

    -Choosing between 2 scum
    Something to consider while weighing a lynch in this situation is the value of each target to the town. For example eliminating the Serial Killer early in a game will usually drop the KPN and provide a massive advantage to the town. If for whatever reason you think one player is mafia (With multiple mafia alive) and the other is an SK the SK obviously has more value to eliminate.

    Objective:
    Clear yourself as town
    Pressure others for reasoning behind their reads (to build reads)
    Have accurate reads
    Explain the reasoning behind your reads / Persuade others to follow your reads

    Only a few town players in any given game will have accurate scum reads. The only way the town can win is if those players speak up and persuade other town players to believe their read enough to lynch the scum. Identifying scum and eliminating scum are 2 separate skills and one without other other is totally useless. If you play every game with perfect reads but nobody ever listens to you then you did not play a good game. You completely failed in a very important way.

    often people do have correct reads but end up getting lynched, and then complain about how no one listened to them and feel like they played a great game. but they are wrong. because they aren't looking at the big picture. if you fail to convey your ideas in a way that sways villagers minds, then your ideas are useless. and if you get mislynched, that is a failure on your part.

    Night Feedback Analysis
    This is using raw feedback information to break down the game into logical reasoning that gives pieces to solve the puzzle.

    So in this hypothetical game we can make a few solid assumptions using just these 2 charts. From the starting point we know that there is a role blocking PR in the game but we do not know if it is a Mafia or Town PR.
    1- The night kill on D3 was targeting Bob but redirected to Sally. This means that Bob cannot be the mafia.
    2- On Day 2 there was no factional kill and Joe was role blocked. This suggests 3 things.
    A- Joe could have been attempting to perform the factional kill and was role blocked preventing it
    B- A lynch on Joe ‘could’ verify the alignment of the escort/consort. If Joe flips mafia the escort is potentially town.
    C- The doctor healed the target that was attacked
    3- On Day 1 there was only 1 bussed feedback claim. This suggests one of 3 situations
    A- The Bus Driver swapped himself with John
    B- The bus driver swapped John with Travis (Who was factional killed, This would suggest John was targeted for the kill N1 and could not be mafia.
    C- The other person that was bussed withheld the feedback
    By breaking down these night actions and their implications conclusions can be drawn that provide greater insight into the game state.


    XXXX
    Correlation does not equal causation but correlation can still be used to predict. If more people have colds and ice cream sales are low they may not cause etch other but the lurking variable of season temperature may alter both factors allowing them to still predict etch other to some degree through correlation

    Follow the Cop
    This is pretty much cutting back into IIoA. Its when the players in a game shift into reliance on investigative results instead of analyzing the day chat to hunt for scum. This is a highly sub-optimal strategy that is often toxic to games and usually when adopted by a town that town ends up failing if the cop dies because the town has not generated information to work off of for an analysis based lynch. This is also something hosts strive to prevent from happening.

    Scum Play//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
    -Votes to lynch do not matter. The difference between your teams vote count and the lynch count is what matters. Get the lynch and get off the train
    Agenda Power Wolf plays
    Divide and Conquer
    Track town bias
    Seeding distrust/ setting up lynches in advance
    Night action selection - RNG, Killing empty slot
    Bussing
    Kill/pocket/lynch priority
    -Catering bussing to how most influential town members play (or one you wont kill), measure town pockets
    Gambits
    PR claim
    Countering Wagonomics
    As scum call out your own slips and weaknesses
    Optimal use of night chats
    Split positions as scum when bussing

    Objectives:
    Clear yourself as town
    Identify and target who will be your enemies
    Pressure others to discredit them and hinder their ability to convince others to follow their reads

    Scum Gambits
    -No-kill
    If the setup is right scum can choose to no-kill allowing town to assume that their jailor or escort stopped the kill from happening.
    -Cute Fuzzy Kitten Defense
    Basically it’s a bid for sympathy with a scum claiming some insane role and (hopefully) with town assuming that there is no way any scum in their right mind would claim something so absurd.
    -Critical PR Defense
    The idea is that when the scum is about to be lynched they claim a critical town power role. The idea is that they will either force the real TPR to counter claim or the town will not lynch them because they are such a critical role.
    -Deep Wolf play
    This is also a strictly scum play and arguably one of the most deadly. The idea is to work out in your night chat to lynch one of your own team mates and have another one champion the lynch. Without a TPR stopping you if you hardcore championed the lynch of another mafia you will almost always win so long as you get hardcore credit for the lynch. I have never seem town win when this type of play is effectively used simply because you championing that lynch on a team mate who was not under pressure will hard clear you from any suspicion. The risk is that you may break that threshold of having your level of certainty match your level of reasoning. To really do this correctly it should be set up a day in advance with some subtle posts by the player attempting to get lynched that are blatant enough for the other player to point to but not so blatant that other town will pick up on them and push the lynch.

    No mens-reya (too dumb to crime) defense legal strategy

    Estimate the strength of your reads
    Make a good first impression
    Same perspective = same alignment?
    Too scummy to be scum
    Lynch All liers
    Scum avoid giving hard reads
    Ask for towns perspectives to identify what they see

    MM Doublethink- I've had this thought and decided to share it here, both for the sake of sharing something interesting and to know if it made sense.
    Given that scum can be caught by perspective "slips", or more exactly perspective dissonances, and given that those dissonances are quite common, the concept of doublethink is interesting for successful scumplay. The possibility of convincing yourself that you are town and do not know the scum, even though you have read your rolecard, could prevent perspective dissonances. Therefore, "fooling yourself" while remaining in control (to push mislynches instead of teammate lynches, for instance) could be the key to the most natural and effective form of scumplay ever. You'd basically have to be O'Brien for the duration of the game. That seems... interesting.

    Divide and conquer
    This is exclusively a scum play and arguably something scum should always try for in day chat. The idea is to identify players bias and try to divide the town into two or more groups playing their bias and grudges against etch other while ‘pocketing’ players to increase your influence over day chat.

    -Identifying Confirmation Bias and splitting the town
    So what you want to look out for here is players grudges and their reads on other players. Keep track of who thinks what about who and play that to your advantage. Also watch for how players are reading other slots. If you notice Player A scum reads player X and puts a lot of value in connecting contradictions to scummy behavior then include some contradiction in your read of player X. This will help pull player A onto this train or if you are not starting a train it could push him over the edge to really gunning for that player. Generally speaking you just need to split the town into two or more groups and then you can start to kill the town off one by one maintaining a balance of power between them and keeping you in control of the situation.

    from a wolf perspective, you realize that you have to pick your targets carefully. you can't be on good terms with everyone; as you said, you have to lynch villagers. and often the people you lynch will be among the first to figure you out and suspect you. so you have to balance your targets carefully, because its dangerous to make enemies as a wolf. you pick someone to lynch so that when they turn against you, you know you will be able to overpower them and get them lynched over them getting you lynched

    -Pocketing players
    This is the other half of the play. You need to get a few players to pretty much read you as cleared town and follow your reasoning. For every player you pocket you greatly increase your ability to control the day lynch. Even if you are not able to fracture the town if you can simply pocket 2 players you will immediately have massive influence over the town and put yourself in an excellent position. The simplest way of doing this is to watch for when a player gives away soft tells that they scum read a slot and then follow up behind them with much more solid reasoning along the same lines. This will get them to think that you are thinking from the same perspective and objectively make them trust you more. It also helps if you see them in 1v1 situation to pressure the other player (as opposed to defending them.) Players get cautious when someone else is defending them but they get along well when there is a ‘common enemy’ between you two.

    Another large advantage to playing in this way is that it gives you purpose in day chat so instead of just hanging around trying to not get lynched you have focused goals that provide a reason to create content as well as have passion in your posts. Its possible to get caught for having this kind of intention in your plays but in my experience it is pretty rare.


    Useful Bits Shit name?
    Game tempo- Setting a days lynch
    Note taking
    -Writing to use different part of brain
    LYLO and MYLO
    Kingmaker play- setting yourself up to control end result. Always go for or go meta
    WIFOM
    Getting Read as (gut read indicators)
    The Explanatory Gap
    Proper use of Codes
    This is the all too familiar situation of posting a code to solve on the next day in order to confirm that you are still you. In multiple games I have seen someone post a weak code that the disguiser then solves falsely confirming themselves as ‘not disguised’. In a word a bad code can do more harm to the town than not making a code at all. Keep in mind that the scum player does not have to actually solve your code at all, he only needs to convince the town that he has solved it. Here are some examples of Bad Codes:
    _ __ _ _____ = I am a robot; This could very easily be faked with any phrase that matches this letter count.
    26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 = a section of pi in math; Kinda clever but simply google searching breaks it along with any other string of numbers. Even if its not what you meant someone could just lie and say it was.
    Pretty much anything math related
    Anything using a cypher program; These are very easily broken with some programs made specifically to do so
    Data can be taken from a players games and analyzed to identify meta trends.
    These trends can then be compared to data taken from a current game to identify specific factors of a player such as alignment


    No clue where to put the shit
    Focus on having fun- Avoid pushing to draw emotional reactions
    (Liers Delight) factor of enjoying Mafia
    Potential shit for theory giggles
    -Sociometrics- Weighted social networks system
    Cam mafia/ Real life shit
    Unethical- Macro meta crunching, Sociometrics, Not looking at your role, Not revealing tells on players with meta,

    Reason to see both sides:
    Engeneering control theory has something called a feedback loop
    If you remove negitive feedback the loop almost always goes divergant and chaotic
    Balance is imoportant because it keeps you from drifting to an extreme. If you only listen a postion you support that position will only be amplified until its screaming its position as opposed to presenting logic

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJZv3z7FOt0
    Detective interview (This is a non listed interview and I would appreciate not poking the interview in youtube comments or distributing the address)
  14. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Dumbest movie you've ever watched

    Thread Author:Oberon

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
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    Views
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    ►►Re: Dumbest movie you've ever watched◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by oops_ur_dead View Post
    I forgot that I already posted here and was about to mention Rubber again, but I guess I already did.

    Holy shit that movie is fucking bad, if you're reading this looking for dumb movies to laugh at please don't watch Rubber. The plot summary might draw you in thinking it's a cheesy B movie but I promise the movie's really boring and sucks fucking ass. There's no funny action or tire rampages. The entire purpose of the movie is that the director thought he was such a cool and clever guy for making a movie that makes no sense, so it's just a bunch of loosely-connected scenes that end up forming an incoherent plot. And not in the entertaining "why did the character do this action, that makes no sense what an idiot" way but in the "what the fuck does this have to do with anything else in the movie" way. The entire first scene of the movie is literally a guy breaking the fourth wall to tell you, the viewer, directly that this movie is completely pointless and has no plot. You'd be an idiot to keep watching after that. I was.

    The only people that seem to like this movie are dumbfuck redditors who think they're edgy for liking a le epic random xD movie that nobody else likes. It's a complete waste of 90 minutes. I'd rather watch Jack and Jill than that shit again.
    So you are saying that movie is the equivalent of Yoko Uno incoherently screaming in a mic and claiming its just too 'avant garde' for people to understand? Mighta worked for a while if he was in better social circles I guess.
  15. ►►Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Indeed, it's very difficult to tell someone who needs help "sorry, we're full" on an individual level. But not doing it causes even greater immoral results. That's why you have to think in terms of numbers when you're thinking about management for the State, without forgetting each number hides a person who has human needs to avoid falling into the trap of treating immigrants (or anyone else) like they're machines.

    ~~

    About "porch pirates", here's more or less where I stand: https://medium.com/@swamy/https-medi...s-fc00aefc362a
    Rule 5: "Concern with ethics increases with the number of means available and vice versa."
    If one lacks the luxury of a choice and is possessed of only one mean, then the ethical question will never arise; automatically the lone mean becomes endowed with moral spirit. After all, what else could be done?

    It's nothing new: Les Misrables already used this thematic long ago. So no, I don't think anyone is a lesser human being for being a porch pirate, as long as they actually need to be.
    I have always felt that the functions of the state should focus on a utilitarian mindset. Even though it can mean evil for the individual Jeremy Bentham really nailed that shit in many ways (although I kinda question an individual functioning that way as an absolute.)

    And that was beautifully put. I have never herd it said that way or considered basically making the thought process a logic tree. Im not sure why I immediately want to create a logic tree for the ethical thought processes of a trolley problem.
  16. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Pinocchio

    Thread Author:Helz

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    7
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    162

    ►►Re: Pinocchio◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    So basically, something our bodies do that we are unaware of, yet we have replicated a similar idea in the past because we are subconsciously aware of it?

    I think the pinocchio part is just pure coincidence. Or comes from a more way to detect lies, like face movements or reactions.

    I love showing people their Blinds pot. Put a small X and O on a piece of paper, cover one eye and with your other focus on the O whilst moving the paper slowly forward and there is a point where the X disappears completely from your sight.

    The Human body is amazing yet so terribly inefficient and I can not understand why people believe that someone could and would design such a shit show.
    You are probably right. A bunch of strange shit was bouncing around in my head like eastern medicine acupuncture that recognized 'energy' and such but manipulates blood flow. But my mind is honestly just reaching. I just feel like very often we 're-discover' some shit people understood a thousand years ago with primitive technology and only realize thats what they knew after we rediscover the idea with modern technology.

    It cracks me up you do that. I do the exact same thing with thumbs. That moment when you see peoples minds light up as they discover they had a blind spot is something I very much enjoy.

    Hold your arms out in front of you thumbs up and together
    Close your right eye
    Move your left hand to the left while focusing on your Right thumb and it will disappear on you.

    ^Might save you some paper : )

    -edit Meant to say your left thumb will disappear on you. You gotta use your peripheral vision though
  17. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Pinocchio

    Thread Author:Helz

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    7
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    162

    ►►Re: Pinocchio◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Not enough to make the nose red though, right?
    What about cheeks? Those get red easier imho. What about sweating? Sudde overly sweating when lying I think is a Movie/Cartoon/TV thing.
    Im not sure. It was the absolute strongest tell (to my limited understanding) using transdermal imaging to track blood flow. I have no idea if you can notice it in person... yet : )

    If you are looking to get into more the most effective stuff I know for in person deception look into Neuro Linguistic Programming and Micro Expressions on the idiosyncratic side. For more general theres tons of body language stuff although I mostly pick up on pre-attack indicators. Pacifying behaviors seem to be a strong one although I dont have the understanding or experience to talk about that myself. A detective I talked to for a while was very adamant that they are extremely effective and given its what he does for a living I assume its a decent voice to go on.

    Hopefully this time next year I will have found the time to get the understanding I want of these things although right now I am still trying to figure out how much I dont know. Kinda part of what yesterday was about. I figured learning about what deception detecting technology was trying to do would be the cleanest way to understand whats formally recognized and exactly how it works.
  18. ►►Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    Are the kids struggling right now, or is that something u predict will happen?
    Its an issue right now as I described above. When my mother retired she wanted some work to keep her busy and has a level of professional expertise in working with special needs children as well as being fluent in Spanish. 8th grade girl I mentioned came a month ago from Guatemala and as things are now she will just be pushed through the grades and given a sympathy diploma with very little education. I think accepting them into our society and giving empty promises about opportunity is cruel. She may wake up at the age of 30 and realize she will never go anywhere in society and was never actually given the chance she deserved. Thinking about that makes me angry but I probably take this (or maybe everything) too seriously. A large portion of my focus in my life has been in fostering potential so feeling its going to be squandered hits home on me.
  19. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Pinocchio

    Thread Author:Helz

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    7
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    ►►Pinocchio◄◄

    This is something kinda random but I was studying different technology in lie detection today and came across one called 'transdermal imaging' which tracked blood flow below the skin as a successful and proven detection technique (to some degree.) One commonly voiced tell is how blood drains from under the eyes and fills in the nose during a lie.

    What immediately popped in my head was Pinocchio. The connection to changes in the nose and lying was made wayyy before we had any real understanding of this concept. It makes me wonder if we have some understanding about our bodys on a very subconscious level.

    Sure it could be a very specific freak coincidence but I feel like there is some connection there thats intriguing the fuck out of me.
  20. ►►Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    So, I eread a book, about how geography affects economic inzequality between nations. And like, I think Mexico was ranked pretty low, so like since it cudn't farm, it couldn't grow like the U.S. And that since russia's bad geoWography influences its invasion of neighbors (not enough resources in their own couuntry, so they've to look for them in other countries).

    so like, that's why mexico is poor?? uWu idk. im sure it plays a factor. i also lerned that usa basically collonized everywhere, using its military power to influence& stuff. like helping grow drug crIses in labbin america... me, i findit hard to believe, that a govt. could be so cruWuel, but at the same time, as a citiezen, is it rly my rightto bash u.s. wiile enjoying its ecOnamic benifits??? to me it almost seems hipocritical and disingenuine ;W;
    Im not sure why Mexico is so poor. Maybe its really not just there is a much more extreme gab between the poor and the rich? Recent technology such as the mass hydroponic farming thats kicked off down there has certainly established both a new revenue stream as well as solved any 'food shortage' issue that would hinder their growth so in the long term if that was the problem it might normalize?

    Im sure the corruption does not help. Had a beer a few months back who was a swat training consultant for the city I live in. He was a refugee who came over after working as an officer in Mexico. Talking to him was super interesting and he basically drew out how they had implemented an effective way to sort corruption out of the police force and pushed out a number of corrupt officials, but they failed to implement an effective way to sort new corrupt officials so over time things returned to worse than they were before. He basically pointed out how as an officer even if you are not corrupt, if the guy above you is you can be serving corrupt interests without yourself being corrupt.

    There is also the factor that the cartels function as independent governments within Mexico. They have their own laws, military, judges, and even collect taxes. For a long time I took issue with the fact such groups are allowed to directly assasinate American citizens and elected officials without being declared a 'terror organization' simply because its argued they 'have no political interest.' But anyways- I am sure the existence of these revenue streams are quite parasitic on the country. Instead of that money being used to protect the public or develop its infrastructure its goes to pay for.. Whatever it is cartels buy? I duno.. Submarines and guns or something?

    To my original point though. I think the absolute worst thing we can do is take in a generation of children and fail to provide them with opportunity to excel in life. Im just watching this stuff unfold in my state and thinking to myself how this is going to create long term inequality. Although maybe being poor and somewhat oppressed in America is still a thousand times better than living in Latin America? I am kinda rambling at this point.
  21. Forum:Mafia Discussion

    Thread:hewwo uwu,

    Thread Author:theoneceko

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    6
    Views
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    ►►Re: hewwo uwu,◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    You prefer same roles + choose same name every game and what do you get? 1 slot solved from the start.

    There's some of that with blacklists too, I think there's a guy who uses specific names for when he blacklists 10 town roles and when 10 evil roles.
    Yet, somehow, he still gets the side he most blacklisted when I blindly kill or trust him.
    That would make sense.
    I will mention that I think blacklist had a lower cap than 10 though. I want to say 6? Been a long time and my mind isnt what it once was : )
  22. Forum:Mafia Discussion

    Thread:hewwo uwu,

    Thread Author:theoneceko

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    6
    Views
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    ►►Re: hewwo uwu,◄◄

    Its really stretching my mind but I want to say there was an actual reason for this. Like it was actually intended for some reason. Elixer might remember. I feel like we had a conversation about it many year ago.
  23. ►►Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    If all of this is too complicated, too costly, or if the immigrants fail to get a job once they come out of the system because there are no more jobs, then it means the state cannot afford it and should simply tighten immigration restrictions by lowering the maximum amount of refugees and of economic immigrants who lack qualification. That is the only way to avoid problems for both immigrants and the state. Else, the state ends up with a ton of trouble (unemployment, high costs due to lack of ability to help immigrants, etc.), and so do the immigrants (poverty, inequalities due to lack of education, higher risk of criminality due to socio-economic conditions, etc.).
    Spoiler : Spoiler because tangental to the topic :

    Something occurred to me the other day. I always saw immigration as a moral good at the expense of the accepting society. But that it also removed motivation for worse off society's to progress. The 'good' people who want a better life no longer need to create that life where they live. They simply leave that negative environment because a better one exists. On the same note the 'better off' locations control immigration to maintain their situation as 'better off.' I kinda figured it was natural.
    But then a few days ago I realized this imbalance is preserved by controlled immigration. That if it did not exist society's could potentially equalize and along with it motivation for progress could be restored in the worse locations. This is a very socialist view to take with absolute loosers and winners in the short term but I kinda wonder how differently we could function as a species if those barriers we consider so normal did not exist. If they are something that causes the issues or if they are simply a result of human nature. Almost in line with Buddhism its almost like the drive to 'have' makes others 'have nots' or something.

    Kinda half cooked thought there but I figured it was worth rambling about.

    I also wonder where you can draw the line. Its easy when your talking about people as numbers to set a point where help will stop being given but it feels almost impossible to do so for the individual for me. I kinda feel like thats the entire conversation on immigration in general. I don't think as a society we could ever have an agreed point of limitation. That part does feel like just a factor of human nature now that I think about it.
  24. ►►Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    the porch pirate menace is getting worse and worse every year. Police can't do shit. Not even an immigrants thing, just people realizing they can make an easy living simply grabbing packages off of the porch.
    Oh for sure. I have never personally stolen a package but I have had to check my morals more than once when I lived in an apartment a some box was right in front of me walking to my door.

    Im pretty sure if I was bad off financially I would not have kept walking. I don't know if that makes me a worse person or not but I certainly don't think of myself as any better than someone who snags a package. Isn't there some saying about morals being a luxury?
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    ►►Re: The line between obsession and dedication◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Obsession begins when something takes so much of your mental space that it harms your ability to do other things.
    By this definition almost everything I take on in my life is certainly an obsession.

    Some days I wish I was different. That I could experience things more casually or at least get obsessed with fewer things so I can accomplish the projects I start without them growing into things that consume my life until I have to walk away for periods of time. If there is some 'disorder' label in line with having compulsions to be obsessive in things that interest me I most certainly have it. But then again I also love it.

    I am curious though. Does any one else have this 'problem' or am I actually as abnormal as I think I am about it?
  26. ►►Re: https://starcraft2.com/en-us/profile/1/1/12058457◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerReign View Post
    https://starcraft2.com/en-us/profile/1/1/12058457

    hi im getting back into starcraft and theoneceko said I need to come here to play this map

    thank you
    Its a good map. I would recommend : )
  27. ►►Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    and like, i'd be mad if anyone took my shit... Just Saiayan. UWU!!!!
    Oh for sure. It was hilarious listening to my neighbor rant. She was like... "If your gona fucking rob me at least do it right!"

    The one my buddy caught on Camera he actually found the guy like a week later. He recognized his truck and confronted him on the issue. The guy denied it until he showed him the video, then he said he had to go get the pig from his cousins house because he gave it away. To this day I wonder how awkward that conversation was or what the situation was. Like.. Did he give it as a birthday present and then had to come back like "So.. I actually stole that shit and need it back now" or maybe he just took it back without saying anything because of the shame? The guy was old too. He was like in his late 40s. What kinda grown ass man runs around town snatching lawn gnomes and shit..
  28. ►►Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    Also, undocumented immigrants have the lowest crime rate in Texas, even though they've a higher poverty rate nationwide:
    "In 2018, the illegal immigrant criminal conviction rate was 782 per 100,000 illegal immigrants, 535 per 100,000 legal immigrants, and 1,422 per 100,000 native‐​born Americans." catOWO.org
    "Undocumented immigrants are nearly twice as likely as the overall U.S. population to be food insecure (24 percent compared to 14 percent)." BREAD!!!.org
    Maybe the recent waves of immigrants will cause instability that leads to higher crime rates, but that will be more of an overpopulation issue, not an issue with immigrants themselves.
    This is a very valid point. I did not mean to insinuate Hispanic Immigrates are going to rob people or something. I honestly didn't think it through and was just regurgitating some studies a I read years back. I always try to relate back to my personal experience and the only thing of the sort I have personally been in contact with is this really weird clepto issue of people stealing lawn ornaments. Its not even stuff of value, My buddys security camera caught one stealing a porcelain pig off his neighbors lawn and last week my neighbor across the street caught one on their doorbell camera taking a metal rooster. Past that most of the 'thieft' I know of among migrants is related to business. Like a guy will skip town after doing a sheetrock job and not pay out his employees although that sort of thing is handled in-house..

    This is the first one google spit out related to economic inequality and crime but there have been many: https://journalofeconomicstructures....08-020-00220-6
    It might be of note the studies I read were international and not focused on America although they all seem to draw the parallel that crime increases in line with economic inequality existing. I do not remember any of them even stating that the crime is perpetuated by the poor.
  29. ►►Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    Don't you just put people in classes that match their intelligence? regardless of where they come from?
    In America its based on age. Regardless of their level of education or intelligence they just get told X age = X grade. Then when they hit 'Highschool' (Or grades 9+) the classes open up a bit and can be more specialized.

    There is also Advanced Placement classes for kids that excel but its generally based on standardized testing which focuses more on ability to regurgitate information than critical thinking or pattern recognition (which are generally the focus of intelligence tests)
    Then there is 'special education' classes for those with special needs. That usually focuses more on 'learning disability's' than intelligence as well with categories like Autism being thrown in.

    Not sure if I really answered your question clearly there but thats my limited understanding and experience from years back.
  30. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Crying vs Complaining

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    3
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    ►►Re: Crying vs Complaining◄◄

    It might just be a difference in motivation or tone. Maybe complaining can be constructive while crying is just venting emotion? Or maybe crying is when the individual leverages themselves as a victim while complaining is just general bitching?

    Or it could be that its just two different ways to view a single behavior.
  31. ►►Re: Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    I imagine that a lot of countries had to deal with this question during the European migrant crisis. Though can't find any info on it. I guess it makes sense since there was a thousand more urgent things to deal with. I imagine it took forever for any one of them to gain a citizenship or live somewhere else than refugee camps or get a job.

    About your situation though, there is one part I have a problem with, and that is: "they don't understand the language."
    Schools are funded by tax payers money, so they are meant for citizens of the country. Can someone have citizenship without speaking the/any of the countries language/-s?
    I guess it's difficult because it's the parents who got the citizenship and through them their children..
    But I'd say: first they learn the language, then they gain citizenship, then evaluate them case by case and put them where they belong in their education progress.
    So there is actually some formal process in what you mentioned. Australia has designated a national language and basically demanded that to become a citizen of Australia you have to adopt the language and culture that exists there. It fixes many issues you see in other countries but at the cost of sacrificing others culture to participate in your society.
    America has taken the opposite stance. One of the reasons you see government funded considerations for other languages such as Spanish is that America has no national language. Yes we mostly speak English but there is nothing requiring that. The people that come to America bring their culture with them creating a 'melting pot.' It does cause some substantial problems but has some very beautiful aspects for an individuals ability to experience a wide range of cultures in their local environment. I particularly enjoy looking at some of the resulting art from merging cultures.

    All that said, once a child is taken as a citizen there is some obligation by society to provide basic functions- to include education. The fact that its taught in a language they do not understand is a burden on society and not themselves (Although in my limited understanding its commonly addressed by teaching English.)

    Its a very interesting difference in how society's function. I would avoid calling one more 'moral' than the other given it draws back to what different society's value..
  32. ►►Whats the appropriate ethical treatment in education for immigrants?◄◄

    Education has always been a focus of mine simply because its the formal process our society uses to prepare individuals to be successful and productive for the rest of their lives. I live in Texas and one massive issue coming up is the huge influx of child immigration. This creates a situation in schools where children who have never been taught what a negative number or a fraction is are dropped into an 8 grade math class taught in a language they do not understand. (My mother actually works with many of these children and this is a specific situation I just discussed with her over lunch that she was working with last week.)

    Something I am curious about is what you guys would consider the 'appropriate' or 'ethical' action to be in this situation. Do you split the children creating a difference in the level of education received which some would consider discrimination? Do you teach the entire group at the level of the lowest individuals knowledge to get them 'caught up' sacrificing the education of those who are well educated? Do you just pass the uneducated through handing them a diploma in the end?

    I personally disagree with opening the borders but if we are going to accept them into our society I believe its a greater evil to destroy their ability to take advantage of the opportunity's our society provides in the long term. If you consider how many studies have reflected that economic disparity is strongly associated with violence and crime its not just an issue for those the system is failing when you are injecting a mass of individuals and setting them up for a life where they will likely struggle to establish income in a very wealthy society. I have been looking a lot lately at the driving factors for whats viewed as 'systemic racism' lately and pretty much feel that this dilemma has the potential to create a whole new generation of inequality for a massive amount of people, which is particularly concerning when I think that is being done to children.

    There is also the associated issue of COVID education. Some children's parents will have taught their kids for a year while others undoubtedly did not. 1 grade level and no language barrier is not as substantial of an issue but the exact same question can be asked of what is appropriate to do with those children who basically took a year off from school.
  33. Replies
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    199

    ►►The line between obsession and dedication◄◄

    Days like today I wonder about this line. What is considered 'normal' or 'competitive' or 'unhealthy.' As with any game there is levels of dedication but this is one that has a greater scope than any I have ever touched on. How far is too far and how do our expectations of what is normal translate into the norms we practice as a community's? Is there a line or should we accept its up to each individual?

    The random thoughts crawling in my head right now..
  34. Forum:Research and Development

    Thread:Theoretically speaking

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    13
    Views
    197

    [User Interface] ►►Re: Theoretically speaking◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    Just so there's no miscommunication here, I am not referring to your penis.


    Trying to imagine back when Scvmurderer played how it would look if all those CHOO CHOO spams were dominion train spams instead.
    Or even today, if guilty/inno spams were replaced by some images or emoticons.

    One's worse, the other's better. So there is a world where such a feature could improve the gameplay experience just a little bit.

    Funny thing is that people can also change colors for said images, so there's some depth to that as well at least for those with 20k points. (Or 5k, but then only LW's)
    Something I have come to focus on over the years is the cost benefit ratio. In any project there is limited effort and for the individual with multiple projects there is also limited effort. It becomes a question of resource allocation when thinking about 'how' that limited resource of effort should be spent.

    To be blunt what you described is totally possible. I just do not see it as an effective use of time and do not think it will ever become a thing. Although I feel like the secondary and tertiary markets like Town of Salem and Among Us could make use of such ideas..
  35. Forum:Research and Development

    Thread:Theoretically speaking

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    13
    Views
    197

    [User Interface] ►►Re: Theoretically speaking◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    To this day, Arsonist was the only guy I've seen to add images in his Starcraft II -Mafia- text messages.
    It's trickier to do than let's say in Review's because only certain height/width that you have to specify work. Not to mention how impractical it is due to how lengthy the img path's are.

    My theoretical question is this: would it be possible to make SC2 images available for chat at the press of a button like emoticons? For example images like gallows or medic.
    As SJ said, Yes : )
  36. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:Dislikes

    Thread Author:Helz

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    14
    Views
    261

    ►►Dislikes◄◄

    Something has been itching at my mind for a few years..

    Does anyone know whats up with the weird amount of dislikes you come across in media? It could be something super non-subjective that makes no statement about anything like a kitten playing with a toy and you see 100k likes with 2k dislikes.. Where do these 2k dislikes come from?

    The latest video that made me wonder this is this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tnqMpz-EIQ

    Its a car that goes so fast it pretty much becomes an airplane. 67k people liked it but for some reason 800 people disliked it? Is there just bots that spam dislikes across youtube or is there some weird % of society that watches clips and hates them for no reason...
  37. Forum:Signups

    Thread:S-FM 327: Last Hope (14P) Signups

    Thread Author:Auwt

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    9
    Views
    409

    ►►Re: S-FM 327: Last Hope (14P) Signups◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    Want me to sign up and leave haff way through?
    Lol. That would be a unique kinda hydra... Kinda cool concept tbh. I would like to see a full game of that.


    -edit

    Maybe job theemed so the flavor could center on a work place with a day shift and a night shift. A bar would be fitting. Maybe that one night with a transition phase where heads could talk to etchother for 'shift change'?

    I think this would be a pretty cool concept I have never herd of anyone trying before.. I might just have to host something along these lines now..
  38. Forum:Signups

    Thread:S-FM 327: Last Hope (14P) Signups

    Thread Author:Auwt

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    9
    Views
    409

    ►►Re: S-FM 327: Last Hope (14P) Signups◄◄

    /reserve
    Kinda want to try some stuffs that requires me to drop into games that are half over or more : )
  39. Forum:Forum Mafia Discussion

    Thread:FM Ladder - Season 7

    Thread Author:Marshmallow Marshall

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    44
    Views
    4,077

    Sticky: ►►Re: FM Ladder - Season 7◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    I would like to be removed from the ladder please.
    I like my 0/2 record. Makes me look pro : )
  40. Forum:Forum Mafia Discussion

    Thread:Why are cooperations so rare?

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    15
    Views
    289

    ►►Re: Why are cooperations so rare?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    There's 8 hours to read on why dogs tilt their heads? Dude..
    Oh yeah. On the surface level it relates to how we are able to perceive direction around us but have issue with doing so vertically because anything in front or behind us the sound will impact both ears at the same time (while the tiny bits of time between soundwaves hitting would otherwise indicate direction. Humans have the advantage of having shaped ears so different pitches and angles of approach of sound waves will hit different parts of the ear which our brain can intemperate differently (That runs into a field of study called psychoacoustics) while dogs have no such advantage and depend exclusively on the temporal cues.
    There was some youtube channel that got me going further down the rabbit hole but the guy explained it well.
  41. Replies
    8
    Views
    175

    ►►Re: Ozy's Scumhunting Spreadsheets - 2021 edition◄◄

    There is an entire field of study on that subject called sociometrics.

    "Sociometric explorations reveal the hidden structures that give a group its form: the alliances, the subgroups, the hidden beliefs, the forbidden agendas, the ideological agreements, the "stars" of the show."

    There is a reason I got a little obsessed with this a year or so ago.

    Recently I wanted to create a tool that used sociometrics and combinatorics but I honestly just don't see the data collection part of sociometrics to be viable. Every time I have gone down that road it burns me out so bad I dont even want to look at a mafia game for a while..
  42. Forum:Forum Mafia Discussion

    Thread:Why are cooperations so rare?

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    15
    Views
    289

    ►►Re: Why are cooperations so rare?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    You actually made a note about woodpeckers
    For real though.. I spent like 8 hours one day reading about why dogs tilt their heads. I am curious as fuck as to why woodpeckers always follow those rhythms. On the surface I feel like its a 'dig' then 'pause to look' cycle but there might be something deep going on there.
  43. Replies
    8
    Views
    175

    ►►Re: Ozy's Scumhunting Spreadsheets - 2021 edition◄◄

    One issue I ran into is that collection of data is itself a time sink and your time/effort is a limited commodity. With that said I have found it to not really be viable to map every post for every player in a game and the times that I have done it I felt like the data I collected was not quite as useful as if I had spent the same amount of time just normally hunting.

    There are things I track such as read walls or posts that are of specific note and I still do go really in depth like your notes suggest sometimes on a player but I have kinda given up on doing it for everyone.

    For your tells I feel like Changing Topics, OMGUS, and Buddying could get you in trouble. Those are kinda context specific tells and also ones that would be more idiosyncratic to the specific player requiring some level of meta thrown in. Confirmation Bias could also be a bit tricky because I have often seen scum players just tunnel scum read 1 player all game.

    In general I feel like you could use something like this to point you in the direction of who to look at though.
  44. Forum:Forum Mafia Discussion

    Thread:Why are cooperations so rare?

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    15
    Views
    289

    ►►Re: Why are cooperations so rare?◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    How many of these "yeah, we PRO's know this stuff, it's common knowledge" things exist that are not put in any guides?
    Thats something that I specifically wanted to address by making some kinda master mafia guide. Now 5 years later I still have just put out bits and pieces partly because of my obsessive perfectionist nature and partly because its such a broad scope. Mafia is undoubtedly the most complex game I have ever played and there simply does not seem to be bounds limited what you can draw upon to play. To this day I am constantly still taking notes on things I would like to think and ramble about.

    A substantial issue is that for someone getting into the game there is no real guide to improvement. Most people just end up playing games and kinda getting better with experience and seeing what others do. At the same time I do not think there is any significant effort to 'hide' knowledge. Make a topic or ask me anything and I will try to dump my mind onto the page for you if it helps.

    -edit
    Just for giggles here is the nonsense in my ideas doc I scribbled down over the last few weeks
    Spoiler : Rambling notes (Mostly to do with mafia) :
    Corporations pushing to avoid competition should be done by individuals marketing themselves for employment

    Why do woodpeckers peck for 1-2 seconds and then stop for 2-4 over and over?

    Mechanical hunting wagonomics valid because limits ‘noise’ data and points to relevant action points.

    Response of ATE indicative of scum for people who respond with aggression/controlling nature

    How to approach lylo

    Mutt and jeff technique as strategy for revealing information

    Always as sheriff reads list with peek being 1st read or clever wording like ‘Would town read even if subbed out’, N0 peek norms

    Town slips- They are a thing and as useful as scum slips but more common

    Always create a counter train- it creates information to analyze later and forces players to make a choice

    Fight Bias of scum wouldent do X because its unthinkable to me- I struggle with too scummy to be scum all the time

    If brain to body mass ratio reflects intelligence under the idea of less mass for the brain to control do people get stupid when fat?

    Profitibilty to punishment ratio reflecting social marketability in white collar vs normal crime

    Generation of frost reflecting mold creation because moisture cause

    The hug- Reveal the ribs and be vulnerable, the bow- lower your eyes and leave yourself venerable, the head tilt- reveal the throat etc.

    The protection that’s afforded to a group vs a person on par with a cult vs religion or a conspiracy vs a crime

    Kingmaker play- setting yourself up to control end result. Always go for or go meta
  45. Forum:Forum Mafia Discussion

    Thread:Why are cooperations so rare?

    Thread Author:OzyWho

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    15
    Views
    289

    ►►Re: Why are cooperations so rare?◄◄

    I think if they are rare or common depends on you. When you are uninformed town you have to act with suspicion but it is up to you what level of cooperation you give to others and accept from them.

    In most games as town I triangulate my thoughts with the players I town read most (and consider to have a level of skill in scum hunting and communication that will make the interaction beneficial to me.) I ask them about their reads and I ask what they think of specific things I noticed. When their opinions are different from my own I consider if I may be mistaken.

    I do the same on a general level with the aggregate opinion of my town reads. When my personal opinions differ from most of the players in the game I think are town I consider following their reads over my own.

    I have found it can also help to 'trade effort.' Offering an in depth read on a player of their choosing and asking for one of your own in return.


    On a basic level I think this sort of thought process makes sense because you are statistically more likely to be able to correctly peg a town player than a scum (simply because there are more town than scum.) I have also personally found it easier to identify a player as town with near certainty.

    Anyways, I could probably keep rambling but in general I believe in the Tyler Durden "you control your level of involvement" line of thought on this subject.
  46. Forum:News

    Thread:Skype Mafia Group

    Thread Author:SuperJack

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    24
    Views
    6,430

    ►►Re: Skype Mafia Group◄◄

    Yeah, we will have to get this going again. Im talking with Superjack and reaching out to some peoples
  47. Forum:General Discussion

    Thread:roast my track again pls

    Thread Author:FrostByte

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    2
    Views
    202

    ►►Re: roast my track again pls◄◄

    Track was not found
  48. Forum:Forum Mafia Discussion

    Thread:Gambits

    Thread Author:Helz

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    56
    Views
    913

    ►►Re: Gambits◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by OzyWho View Post
    It's actually funny. Oberon is such a strong player in regards to meta reading SC2Mafia players. But he has like 0 thread presence. He's like the Jester whom everyone underestimates and doesn't take serious.
    Yeah. Meta reads and gut reads are very difficult to share. I use to never use them at all but now I just use them to catch my attention so I can hunt for real tells.
  49. ►►Re: Debate and Opinion: Place Limit on number of housing property owned◄◄

    Something I am curious about. Prior to COVID a 2x4 stud was about $2.35 but now with supply chains going insane its about $9.70

    One thing some people are betting on is a gradual overall house price increase with expected material costs to settle between 20-50% higher than they were pre-covid. Is this issue just a thing around America or are you guys seeing that around the world?
  50. Forum:Forum Mafia Discussion

    Thread:Gambits

    Thread Author:Helz

    Post Author:Helz

    Replies
    56
    Views
    913

    ►►Re: Gambits◄◄

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    No offense but teamwork is overrated. :P
    I dont even think real teamwork exists unless youre with people of similar capabilities as yourself. Then its teamwork. Otherwise you end up with having to filter through millions of retarded opinions which you could really do without just to push a lynch through.

    That is why I have a huge problem with the idea of voting - not just in Mafia, but in general. I was playing this game a few weeks ago and I came across this Machine Commune of Robots that didnt really have a hierarchy of leaders in the traditional sense; more of a computer hivemind. When they decided what they wanted to do they basically DISCUSSED it (there was no voting as far as I could see), and the best idea was what they picked, and the verdict was unanimous. That is what I want to see, but unfortunately discussing usually means you have to convince people who are, lets say, not looking at the game as you are (and I mean this in a negative way), and usually its quite hard to convince people, because, unsurprisingly, people dont want to be convinced of things. This only works if you have good reads, but the problem is, EVERYONE thinks they have good reads! So youre fucked.
    I disagree on a few points. One thing I do every game I play is triangulate my reads with other players I town read. The last game we played you can probably find several points where I was bouncing ideas off bakermir and seeking out his opinions. There are several reasons for this:

    -One is that if you look at your thought process as a closed loop system you must inject new information into that system to expand the potential conclusions you can draw. Other people will have a different take and consider things you have not which is useful for challenging your own bias and creating new lines of thought for your own analysis.
    -Another is that it helps to trade your ideas to them for the same reasons. Everyone should form their own analysis but explaining your thought process to them allows them to look at the situation though your perspective and potential reach the same conclusion you did which eliminates the need for persuasion.
    -Also people are receptive to open discussion but flatly resistant to having a view pushed on them. When you seek out and try to understand their views they are much more likely to seek out and try to understand yours. The way you are speaking you have very little respect for others reads and just want others to follow your read. Thats a very bad foundation to build any cooperation on.

    I personally think the greatest thing any player can do to improve is to re-read games after they played them. While doing so they can look at what they were right and wrong about. Everyone says they would like to improve but few actually have the discipline to really 'work' at getting better. They just collaterally improve (or stay stagnant) as they play games.
    One of the major useful things of this is that it dispels the terrible human nature of bias in data selection. As you said 'everyone thinks they have good reads' but I believe the cause of that is because people cherry pick their reads. At one point in the game they FoS every player in the game so its easy to turn around and say 'See, I called this guy scum here' on the scum players and you can usually find some point where you suspected every scum player at one point. That looks great until you put it in perspective that at one point you also suspected every town player at one point. This sort of process can go a long way to actually helping people understand how good their reads are.

    For me last game is about as good as I get. I pegged Mike's alignment + defend target (although I was wrong on his role), I was wrong on Light_Yag and Renegade but dead on for literally every other player in the game with all 3 scum in a PoE of 4 when I died. I can look back at that and without bias be proud of my reads that game, then turn around and realize I should have more aggressively advocated to lynch in my reads. It allows me to see where I did well but also where I played poorly.

    By doing this consistently over multiple games you will start to see patterns and realize where you should focus to improve as a player. But to be blunt with you a lot of what you are communicating to me suggests you should focus on your communication. Gambits are not an appropriate substitute for being able to explain and push your reads and the fact you struggle with that part of the game does not mean teamwork is overrated for the game; it means that teamwork is ineffective for you personally due to your deficiencies in that specific area.
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