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I am fine, lest Plotato makes his stellar comeback involving more insulting of the French. Thank you :P

I am fine, lest Plotato makes his stellar comeback involving more insulting of the French. Thank you :P

[QUOTE=Stealthbomber16;967364][url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law[/url][/QUOTE]
Woah, he's the one who came up with this? I thought he was just more or less repeating what everyone else says when he said that, but... apparently not!

But uh, how is this related to the topic? I might have an idea of where you're going with it, but I'm not sure.
[QUOTE=Lag;967361]Mass misinformation is objectively very harmful.

But perhaps the biggest obstacle in addressing it is that there seems to be zero good solutions for dealing with it. (As you just pointed out several glaring flaws with the government taking that role)

I have no idea what a good solution would be either.[/QUOTE]

Well, the [I]least bad[/I] solution is to have people, especially those who actually know things, express the truth by themselves, and to provide quality education to the masses as much as possible. Going with the state censorship option, apart from literally "just murder people already, it's totally legal guys, lawyers are publishing misinformation!", is denying democracy. Now you might say "but democracy is impossible and it's best to have an elite lead the stupid masses", but we've seen where "enlightened absolutism" led - and later, where fascism did. So really, the solution is citizen participation to discussions - and in this sense, people taking the fight to social media to provide reliable information and to actually educate are doing a great service to their country, unironically.

Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

Woah, he's the one who came up with this? I thought he was just more or less repeating what everyone else says when he said that, but... apparently not!

But uh, how is this related to the topic? I might have an idea of where you're going with it, but I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Lag

Mass misinformation is objectively very harmful.

But perhaps the biggest obstacle in addressing it is that there seems to be zero good solutions for dealing with it. (As you just pointed out several glaring flaws with the government taking that role)

I have no idea what a good solution would be either.

Well, the least bad solution is to have people, especially those who actually know things, express the truth by themselves, and to provide quality education to the masses as much as possible. Going with the state censorship option, apart from literally "just murder people already, it's totally legal guys, lawyers are publishing misinformation!", is denying democracy. Now you might say "but democracy is impossible and it's best to have an elite lead the stupid masses", but we've seen where "enlightened absolutism" led - and later, where fascism did. So really, the solution is citizen participation to discussions - and in this sense, people taking the fight to social media to provide reliable information and to actually educate are doing a great service to their country, unironically.

[QUOTE=oops_ur_dead;967299]So you think there are physical laws which apply to the brain which cannot be described mathematically? That sounds like a soul with more steps to me. There is no shame in believing in a soul, most of the world does so.

Unless your point is that computers aren't yet powerful enough to simulate the brain, which is an even less interesting point.[/QUOTE]

Technically, a soul would have to be on a non-material plane. Not mathematically describable =/= not material (well, I guess that's debatable, but it at least isn't [I]necessarily[/I] so).

And since I would be talking about something I know basically nothing about, I will not get into "what can maths explain", sorry, not sorry :P.

Originally Posted by oops_ur_dead

So you think there are physical laws which apply to the brain which cannot be described mathematically? That sounds like a soul with more steps to me. There is no shame in believing in a soul, most of the world does so.

Unless your point is that computers aren't yet powerful enough to simulate the brain, which is an even less interesting point.

Technically, a soul would have to be on a non-material plane. Not mathematically describable =/= not material (well, I guess that's debatable, but it at least isn't necessarily so).

And since I would be talking about something I know basically nothing about, I will not get into "what can maths explain", sorry, not sorry :P.

I'm not sure I want us to have [I]deep[/I] discussions... or anything else deep.... here.......

:ika:

I'm not sure I want us to have deep discussions... or anything else deep.... here.......

[MENTION=29012]Auwt[/MENTION] Arise from your slumber, O ye mighty, and come get role madness'd :D

@Auwt Arise from your slumber, O ye mighty, and come get role madness'd

:calix:

[QUOTE=Helz;967170]You are a badass

Dont downplay the badassery you do : )[/QUOTE]

This brings the question: is a badass better than a goodass?

Originally Posted by Helz

You are a badass

Dont downplay the badassery you do : )

This brings the question: is a badass better than a goodass?

[QUOTE=OzyWho;967141]totally 100% aha what he said[/QUOTE]
Literally this lol. And to add something because now I feel cheap: scumchats that aren't 24/7 absolutely can contribute to setups that are "asking questions" such as the ones Lag linked; setups centered around communication and nuances in communication are a perfect example of this.

And I'm totally not repeating what everyone said already but balance is a means to attain fun, not the end goal, no matter how important the means can be.
[QUOTE=DoctorZeus;967158]BTW if you want more players the best way is more personal connections & quality of the ux and less game set up.

There's a reason MU is doing so well, and there's a reason certain players do better in filling games. I came here for Lag and joined games because of Lag.[/QUOTE]

Yes, we know Lag is cool 8)

That doesn't mean discussions about setups aren't fun, interesting, or productive, though! I really like what I've seen in this thread. Part of the fun in playing Mafia is being a game theory nerd, after all, just like how playing with new people is part of it!

Originally Posted by OzyWho

totally 100% aha what he said

Literally this lol. And to add something because now I feel cheap: scumchats that aren't 24/7 absolutely can contribute to setups that are "asking questions" such as the ones Lag linked; setups centered around communication and nuances in communication are a perfect example of this.

And I'm totally not repeating what everyone said already but balance is a means to attain fun, not the end goal, no matter how important the means can be.

Originally Posted by DoctorZeus

BTW if you want more players the best way is more personal connections & quality of the ux and less game set up.

There's a reason MU is doing so well, and there's a reason certain players do better in filling games. I came here for Lag and joined games because of Lag.

Yes, we know Lag is cool

That doesn't mean discussions about setups aren't fun, interesting, or productive, though! I really like what I've seen in this thread. Part of the fun in playing Mafia is being a game theory nerd, after all, just like how playing with new people is part of it!

I am glad the scum are not called Imposters...

I am glad the scum are not called Imposters...

[QUOTE=Guillo;967132]I can do 14vs4, heck I would do 15vs4, if we could do it, so can you. But I don't know if I can pull off recruiting 19 players to play a mountainous here.[/QUOTE]

Although the number is quite high, I am not worried about the moutainous side: this is probably the spiciest mountainous game we've tried in a long time. I'm going to mark this as 18P for ease of access to information anyway, since it corresponds to the OP.

Originally Posted by Guillo

I can do 14vs4, heck I would do 15vs4, if we could do it, so can you. But I don't know if I can pull off recruiting 19 players to play a mountainous here.

Although the number is quite high, I am not worried about the moutainous side: this is probably the spiciest mountainous game we've tried in a long time. I'm going to mark this as 18P for ease of access to information anyway, since it corresponds to the OP.

How beauteous mankind is! O brave new feature, that has such utility in it!

- Shakespeare, 2022

How beauteous mankind is! O brave new feature, that has such utility in it!

- Shakespeare, 2022

I might not play the Arcade anymore, but... wasn't the whole point of removing spy listening to mafia chat to let mafia speak freely at night to encourage better coordinated teamplay? I'm not sure what the point of this change would be.

[QUOTE=ChannelMiner;965047]Disturbing the peace implies that someone, yknow DISTURBS the peace. Talking in private doesn't really disturb anything now does it?[/QUOTE]

Also this. lol

I might not play the Arcade anymore, but... wasn't the whole point of removing spy listening to mafia chat to let mafia speak freely at night to encourage better coordinated teamplay? I'm not sure what the point of this change would be.

Originally Posted by ChannelMiner

Disturbing the peace implies that someone, yknow DISTURBS the peace. Talking in private doesn't really disturb anything now does it?

Also this. lol

It would be a good idea to specify some things directly in the OP: mafia has a 24/7 chat (not just a "Night Chat"), "a duel cannot be active 8 hours prior to EoD" (the OP says "at any time during the day"), the setup is strictly mountainous (just having the two rolecards be public would be enough and would make things clearer).

Balance question open to discussion: The reason the setup was deemed townsided when it was played seems to have been the fact town has access to double the kill power. Can't town just... be wrong, though? In other words, is the ability to get more people democratically killed (via dueo or via lynch) that inherently strong for town, or does it simply amplify the effect of good/bad towns? Here, if town mislynches+misduels thrice, it loses, which seems fair enough, but is probably more wolfsided than it is townsided.

[U]Speaking as a player and not as staff[/U]: If the phase lenght is 36/12, I will simply not sign for the game, because that is a pure torture for real life schedules in my opinion (and in my experience). I know such phases are relatively common on some other sites, but they are not here, so while you [I]can[/I] host 36/12, I think it's a fair warning to say some players here won't sign (at least one xD). @ others, that might be good to confirm or to deny; I'm actually curious what people think of phases that aren't multiples of 24.

It would be a good idea to specify some things directly in the OP: mafia has a 24/7 chat (not just a "Night Chat"), "a duel cannot be active 8 hours prior to EoD" (the OP says "at any time during the day"), the setup is strictly mountainous (just having the two rolecards be public would be enough and would make things clearer).

Balance question open to discussion: The reason the setup was deemed townsided when it was played seems to have been the fact town has access to double the kill power. Can't town just... be wrong, though? In other words, is the ability to get more people democratically killed (via dueo or via lynch) that inherently strong for town, or does it simply amplify the effect of good/bad towns? Here, if town mislynches+misduels thrice, it loses, which seems fair enough, but is probably more wolfsided than it is townsided.

Speaking as a player and not as staff: If the phase lenght is 36/12, I will simply not sign for the game, because that is a pure torture for real life schedules in my opinion (and in my experience). I know such phases are relatively common on some other sites, but they are not here, so while you can host 36/12, I think it's a fair warning to say some players here won't sign (at least one xD). @ others, that might be good to confirm or to deny; I'm actually curious what people think of phases that aren't multiples of 24.

[center][SIZE=5]Regarding [URL="https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49942-S-FM-341-American-Flag-Nightless"]S-FM 341: American Flag Nightless[/URL][/SIZE]
[MENTION=45595]Oberon[/MENTION] is banned from participating in the next two FM games for severe insults, with the aggravation of one insult post quoting the post in which he was being shot. Additionally, considering his history of various infractions, this is to be considered a final warning. [B]Any further rulebreaking from Oberon will result in his permanent ban from Sc2 Mafia without possibility of appeal.[/B]

Evidence: His ISO: [url]https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4071721[/url]

[url]https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49942-S-FM-341-American-Flag-Nightless?p=966332&viewfull=1#post966332[/url] and subsequent posts, specifically [url]https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49942-S-FM-341-American-Flag-Nightless?p=966337&viewfull=1#post966337[/url] just after he was shot

~~

Considering his history of various rulebreakings and his general troll reputation, [MENTION=39849]theoneceko[/MENTION] is being put on the Greylist [URL="https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/45962-Forum-Mafia-Greylist"](link)[/URL] for an indefinite period for griefing by daykilling Lag in the very first posts of the game without consulting his scum team in any way. He knew the kill was not optimal (see evidence), but did it anyway because he wanted to kill Lag out of anger because of his history with them and because he thought they had banned him from a server. This significantly harmed his team, and it had to try to play around the trolly shot. He also admitted to have trolled and not to care about it.

Evidence: His ISO: [url]https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4071832[/url]

[url]https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49942-S-FM-341-American-Flag-Nightless?p=965992&viewfull=1#post965992[/url]

[spoiler="Context screenshots of conversation between Lag and theoneceko before ?krc was randed"][IMG]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/943913803710615553/943914170951270472/unknown.png[/IMG]
[IMG]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/943913803710615553/943914270758948884/unknown.png[/IMG]
[IMG]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/943913803710615553/943914330498412635/unknown.png[/IMG]
[/spoiler]
[spoiler="Ceko admitting to have trolled intentionally"][IMG]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/738856522116890635/964269958014062703/unknown.png[/IMG][/spoiler]

~~

[MENTION=46065]BradLand[/MENTION] is being warned to respect host rules: quoting your death post, especially to insult and to advise to lynch your killer, shouldn't happen. Further offenses will be infracted.

Evidence: His ISO: [url]https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4071835[/url]

[url]https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/49942-S-FM-341-American-Flag-Nightless?p=966302&viewfull=1#post966302[/url] and the following post

~~

We have examined [MENTION=11961]Oliver[/MENTION]144's dead-posting and concluded it was an accidental, honest mistake, the "bah" post after death he made quoting him being shot being traditionally allowed on his homesite. To everyone, though, just remember to check whether or not you are alive before posting in a game with daykills!


[/center]

Regarding S-FM 341: American Flag Nightless
@Oberon is banned from participating in the next two FM games for severe insults, with the aggravation of one insult post quoting the post in which he was being shot. Additionally, considering his history of various infractions, this is to be considered a final warning. Any further rulebreaking from Oberon will result in his permanent ban from Sc2 Mafia without possibility of appeal.

Evidence: His ISO: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/searc...archid=4071721

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post966332 and subsequent posts, specifically https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post966337 just after he was shot

~~

Considering his history of various rulebreakings and his general troll reputation, @theoneceko is being put on the Greylist (link) for an indefinite period for griefing by daykilling Lag in the very first posts of the game without consulting his scum team in any way. He knew the kill was not optimal (see evidence), but did it anyway because he wanted to kill Lag out of anger because of his history with them and because he thought they had banned him from a server. This significantly harmed his team, and it had to try to play around the trolly shot. He also admitted to have trolled and not to care about it.

Evidence: His ISO: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/searc...archid=4071832

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post965992

Spoiler : Context screenshots of conversation between Lag and theoneceko before ?krc was randed :

Spoiler : Ceko admitting to have trolled intentionally :

~~

@BradLand is being warned to respect host rules: quoting your death post, especially to insult and to advise to lynch your killer, shouldn't happen. Further offenses will be infracted.

Evidence: His ISO: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/searc...archid=4071835

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post966302 and the following post

~~

We have examined @Oliver 144's dead-posting and concluded it was an accidental, honest mistake, the "bah" post after death he made quoting him being shot being traditionally allowed on his homesite. To everyone, though, just remember to check whether or not you are alive before posting in a game with daykills!

[QUOTE=Mizery;966992]I am pretty sure it's a kind of food that you drink[/QUOTE]

you DRINK soup?!

Originally Posted by Mizery

I am pretty sure it's a kind of food that you drink

you DRINK soup?!

[QUOTE=OzyWho;966989]Apparently even FoL has never had problems with 24/7 chat, and they're heavy mech lovers as they go.
[COLOR="#0000FF"]Edit: in fact, day chat allowed them to be more mech heavy as mech heaviness is otherwise a town buff.[/COLOR]
I guess this means I'm mostly [I]for[/I] having most games be 24/7.
Only setups like krc and Smiths I could see it causing trouble, few setups by comparison.[/QUOTE]

Like here, that would also be design decisions. There could even be a setup which is about limited communication for wolves, and that would also be a design decision.

I think both versions have their merit, but in general (on the overwhelming majority of sites, too), 24/7 tends to be funner for wolves. What I like about night-only is how special it makes D1: scum haven't interacted privately yet at that point. However, considering a significant amount of people throw D1 into the dustbin anyway (which is immensely sad)...

Originally Posted by OzyWho

Apparently even FoL has never had problems with 24/7 chat, and they're heavy mech lovers as they go.
Edit: in fact, day chat allowed them to be more mech heavy as mech heaviness is otherwise a town buff.
I guess this means I'm mostly for having most games be 24/7.
Only setups like krc and Smiths I could see it causing trouble, few setups by comparison.

Like here, that would also be design decisions. There could even be a setup which is about limited communication for wolves, and that would also be a design decision.

I think both versions have their merit, but in general (on the overwhelming majority of sites, too), 24/7 tends to be funner for wolves. What I like about night-only is how special it makes D1: scum haven't interacted privately yet at that point. However, considering a significant amount of people throw D1 into the dustbin anyway (which is immensely sad)...

[MENTION=9527]deathworlds[/MENTION], I agree with you about host freedom, and have actually discussed the matter :)
Conclusion: our policy is that you should [I]have a reason[/I] to make it non-24/7. We're not picky on the reason, though: if it really is a design decision because you want the setup to be that way, we don't have an objection to it! It really is just "do something else to balance if it's the only reason, because it's far from being the only option". It really isn't meant to be a branding change; in fact, we only stated the policy that would otherwise have been applied in the shadows so that hosts know what we think is best and why. Also remember that we are always glad to discuss openly in setup threads about such matters, so it really is a small limitation, a bit like "vanilla jesters generally suck unless you have a good reason to include them", which has been a longstanding policy.

Your example of a multiball playing around with night-only chats and 24/7 chats is probably the most obvious kind of design decision, and we wouldn't even question that lol.

@deathworlds , I agree with you about host freedom, and have actually discussed the matter
Conclusion: our policy is that you should have a reason to make it non-24/7. We're not picky on the reason, though: if it really is a design decision because you want the setup to be that way, we don't have an objection to it! It really is just "do something else to balance if it's the only reason, because it's far from being the only option". It really isn't meant to be a branding change; in fact, we only stated the policy that would otherwise have been applied in the shadows so that hosts know what we think is best and why. Also remember that we are always glad to discuss openly in setup threads about such matters, so it really is a small limitation, a bit like "vanilla jesters generally suck unless you have a good reason to include them", which has been a longstanding policy.

Your example of a multiball playing around with night-only chats and 24/7 chats is probably the most obvious kind of design decision, and we wouldn't even question that lol.

Sorry but... what's a soup? :wondering:

Sorry but... what's a soup?

[QUOTE=Lag;966929]Alternatively, here's why I deserve MVP,
I was the only player that did all of:
-Won the game
-Didn't shoot a fellow town
-Didn't get shot by a fellow town
-Didn't flame excessively

#LagForMVP[/QUOTE]

[vote]Lag[/Vote]

Yes.

Sorry Mizery, you deserved better than this and Ceko probably deserved worse lol. We couldn't really lose anyway though so yay

Originally Posted by Lag

Alternatively, here's why I deserve MVP,
I was the only player that did all of:
-Won the game
-Didn't shoot a fellow town
-Didn't get shot by a fellow town
-Didn't flame excessively

#LagForMVP

-vote Lag

Yes.

Sorry Mizery, you deserved better than this and Ceko probably deserved worse lol. We couldn't really lose anyway though so yay

[QUOTE=oliverz144;966916]marx & lenin[/QUOTE]

[video=youtube;hMtSKZ7Yw0M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMtSKZ7Yw0M[/video]

URAAAAAAAAAAAA

Originally Posted by oliverz144

marx & lenin

URAAAAAAAAAAAA

[QUOTE=theoneceko;966907]ok i am SHOUTING too much

~~

mm can be scum, he tunneled miz right after she shot [COLOR="#FF0000"]ZEUS[/COLOR]. then he shot chanel. [COLOR="#FF0000"]MM[/COLOR] could be using mart to lynch me, [COLOR="#FFFFFF"]BUT[/COLOR]

his townread of mart does not look like pocket at all????



what?? this is a pocket attempt??
SCUM would attack mart aggressively for this.. unless [COLOR="#FF0000"]mm[/COLOR] was afraid of being shot for [COLOR="#00FF00"]MIS[/COLOR]lynching mart
mm literally asked me "WHAT IF I WAS POCKETING MART" tho, like how does this help [COLOR="#FF0000"]SCUM!mm[/COLOR]?
~~~
he was FIRST to [COLOR="#FF0000"]tunnel[/COLOR] miz, which is extremely anti-town
he [COLOR="#FF0000"]SHOT[/COLOR] chanel, which is also extremely anti-town

however, mm is the only guy besides me who showed [COLOR="#00FF00"]anger[/COLOR]
(oberon and chan were mad too, but theyre both [COLOR="#00FF00"]DEAD[/COLOR])

mm has been SO anti-town. [COLOR="#FF0000"]scum!MM[/COLOR] tries to rationalize, but MM has been suiciding and that makes me actually [COLOR="#00FF00"]townread[/COLOR] him
~~~
mart [COLOR="#FF0000"]SHOT[/COLOR] brad
mart [COLOR="#FF0000"]HAMMERED[/COLOR] miz after my accidental vote on her, which is extremely anti-town
mart [COLOR="#FF0000"]TOLD[/COLOR] mm to shoot chan

mart has been townreading [COLOR="#FF0000"]T00 MUCH[/COLOR], and never creating a [COLOR="#00FF00"]REAL[/COLOR] push of his own
~~~
actually mm's actions look worse, but tonewise mart has sounded like wolf all along. literally from the start [COLOR="#00FF00"]TOWN[/COLOR] called his posts scummy. i already explained why i think mm's actions r somewhat justified, mart has much more scum equity[/QUOTE]

I have been ANTI-TOWN? You're the one saying this?

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b6/6d/b4/b66db4e5f22b1ceb183754817c7fd6d8.gif[/IMG]

Lol.

[vote]theoneceko[/vote]

If this is wrong, I have many people other than myself to blame, so it's alright ;)
Also sorry ChannelMiner, but you completely failed to answer questions or to... well, participate, so it was a little hard to decide.
If Martin is scum, he defended himself well and pocketed me successfully enough. Letting Ceko get away with his game would just be criminal at this point.

This game was fun, but a shitshow in which I was mostly wrong :D GG

Originally Posted by theoneceko

ok i am SHOUTING too much

~~

mm can be scum, he tunneled miz right after she shot ZEUS. then he shot chanel. MM could be using mart to lynch me, BUT

his townread of mart does not look like pocket at all????



what?? this is a pocket attempt??
SCUM would attack mart aggressively for this.. unless mm was afraid of being shot for MISlynching mart
mm literally asked me "WHAT IF I WAS POCKETING MART" tho, like how does this help SCUM!mm?
~~~
he was FIRST to tunnel miz, which is extremely anti-town
he SHOT chanel, which is also extremely anti-town

however, mm is the only guy besides me who showed anger
(oberon and chan were mad too, but theyre both DEAD)

mm has been SO anti-town. scum!MM tries to rationalize, but MM has been suiciding and that makes me actually townread him
~~~
mart SHOT brad
mart HAMMERED miz after my accidental vote on her, which is extremely anti-town
mart TOLD mm to shoot chan

mart has been townreading T00 MUCH, and never creating a REAL push of his own
~~~
actually mm's actions look worse, but tonewise mart has sounded like wolf all along. literally from the start TOWN called his posts scummy. i already explained why i think mm's actions r somewhat justified, mart has much more scum equity

I have been ANTI-TOWN? You're the one saying this?



Lol.

-vote theoneceko

If this is wrong, I have many people other than myself to blame, so it's alright ;)
Also sorry ChannelMiner, but you completely failed to answer questions or to... well, participate, so it was a little hard to decide.
If Martin is scum, he defended himself well and pocketed me successfully enough. Letting Ceko get away with his game would just be criminal at this point.

This game was fun, but a shitshow in which I was mostly wrong GG

[QUOTE=Lag;966894]An important thing to add about traffic analyst is that it's an "anti-swing" alignment cop since it checks if someone has another player they are able to legally talk to at night, so once mafia is down to only one member left it stops returning positive results on the mafia because they have no one to talk to at night.

Generally makes balancing setups easier because unlike more swingy roles (e.g Tracker who gets stronger as more mafia die) which can lead to snowballing, it gets weaker as town is doing better (well, specifically once mafia is down to only one player, but it still falls under the anti-swing category)
[MENTION=29377]Marshmallow Marshall[/MENTION][/QUOTE]

That is a great point. I don't think I've ever seen the role be used on this site, but it really should be used more! The main problem with alignment cops is that they can singlehandedly solve games without the right countermeasures around, so the Traffic Analyst is a great role to replace it with, since it has an integrated countermeasure.

Originally Posted by Lag

An important thing to add about traffic analyst is that it's an "anti-swing" alignment cop since it checks if someone has another player they are able to legally talk to at night, so once mafia is down to only one member left it stops returning positive results on the mafia because they have no one to talk to at night.

Generally makes balancing setups easier because unlike more swingy roles (e.g Tracker who gets stronger as more mafia die) which can lead to snowballing, it gets weaker as town is doing better (well, specifically once mafia is down to only one player, but it still falls under the anti-swing category)
@Marshmallow Marshall

That is a great point. I don't think I've ever seen the role be used on this site, but it really should be used more! The main problem with alignment cops is that they can singlehandedly solve games without the right countermeasures around, so the Traffic Analyst is a great role to replace it with, since it has an integrated countermeasure.

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;966912]Like not only because if we're both town then town has been absolutely crap

but also mafia somehow managed to frick up just enough to land in f3 with us[/QUOTE]

Well, Ceko's shot led the way. Honestly, I am very, very tempted to just lynch Ceko for policy because scum should never be allowed to get away with literal murder in public. And you... well, ugh. You're not even particularly towny. It's just that it feels weird to say you were ready to bet Ceko would refuse to hammer Channel (else, I would have ended up here with a shot and insta-win, resulting in your loss if you're scum).

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Like not only because if we're both town then town has been absolutely crap

but also mafia somehow managed to frick up just enough to land in f3 with us

Well, Ceko's shot led the way. Honestly, I am very, very tempted to just lynch Ceko for policy because scum should never be allowed to get away with literal murder in public. And you... well, ugh. You're not even particularly towny. It's just that it feels weird to say you were ready to bet Ceko would refuse to hammer Channel (else, I would have ended up here with a shot and insta-win, resulting in your loss if you're scum).

Hi, I'm not mafia, so I am not hammering immediatly! [B]Anyone placing a vote on me is scum claiming.[/B]

Now that this is out of the way, time to read.

Hi, I'm not mafia, so I am not hammering immediatly! Anyone placing a vote on me is scum claiming.

Now that this is out of the way, time to read.

[QUOTE=oliverz144;966890]traffic analyst has a night action checking if a slot had a private chat that night.
in "normal" set-ups thats basically an alignment cop, as that makes only the scumchat trigger a positive result. however, a jailor with a victim-chat could possibly create "false positives", and lead to a town power role outing, or even getting lynched.[/QUOTE]

Ah. That would just be a setup based on nightchats and on claims, though. It's far from nonsensical. In fact, traffic analyst only makes sense if there are townies who can have private chats. Else, you can just call them alignment cops...

Originally Posted by oliverz144

traffic analyst has a night action checking if a slot had a private chat that night.
in "normal" set-ups thats basically an alignment cop, as that makes only the scumchat trigger a positive result. however, a jailor with a victim-chat could possibly create "false positives", and lead to a town power role outing, or even getting lynched.

Ah. That would just be a setup based on nightchats and on claims, though. It's far from nonsensical. In fact, traffic analyst only makes sense if there are townies who can have private chats. Else, you can just call them alignment cops...

Okay okay, I watched a part of the video you linked, and...

"So God is that which eternally dies and is reborn in the pursuit of higher being and truth"

Yeah, okay. You're not reconciling anyone here sir XD. You're just founding a new religion!

Okay okay, I watched a part of the video you linked, and...

"So God is that which eternally dies and is reborn in the pursuit of higher being and truth"

Yeah, okay. You're not reconciling anyone here sir XD. You're just founding a new religion!

[QUOTE=oliverz144;966877]ive played a game once where jailor(prot) was able to nighttalk w/ his victim.
do you think that should be used sometimes? what if there is a traffic analyst aswell? that would be +scumvalue if both jail and anal are town, right?
i am uncertain here tbh[/QUOTE]

What is your traffic analyst doing here? Also, generally speaking, it depends on the spirit of your setup. Jailors tend to be pretty central to setups when they exist, though, so it'd be interesting to have a traffic analyst rolecard.

Originally Posted by oliverz144

ive played a game once where jailor(prot) was able to nighttalk w/ his victim.
do you think that should be used sometimes? what if there is a traffic analyst aswell? that would be +scumvalue if both jail and anal are town, right?
i am uncertain here tbh

What is your traffic analyst doing here? Also, generally speaking, it depends on the spirit of your setup. Jailors tend to be pretty central to setups when they exist, though, so it'd be interesting to have a traffic analyst rolecard.

Aw, it's not activated. :(

Aw, it's not activated.

actually actually hey hey hey hey
[daykill]ChannelMiner[/daykill]

:D

actually actually hey hey hey hey

-daykill ChannelMiner

Bleh, I've waited long enough, nothing terribly enlightening has been said. YEEHAW
[B][COLOR="#00FFFF"]-daykill ChannelMiner[/COLOR][/B] [MENTION=15807]Stealthbomber16[/MENTION]

Bleh, I've waited long enough, nothing terribly enlightening has been said. YEEHAW
-daykill ChannelMiner @Stealthbomber16

[QUOTE=theoneceko;966861]like, i RLY shud not be defending chanel's wall for him, but u literally asked me for my opinion
[COLOR="#00FF00"]chanel was just mad at u[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#FFFF00"]true, ig... [MENTION=46129]ChannelMiner[/MENTION] when MM himself asks u a question, u shud answer[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#FFA500"]i guess ?????[/COLOR]

granted i litrally do not care about the quotes u pulled, if ur saying cm is scum then ur saying cm is worst scum of all time to shoot his [COLOR="#FF0000"]teammate[/COLOR] who had a gun[/QUOTE]
You are right... REEEEEEEEE lol. I AM INDECISIVEEEEEEEEEEE
[QUOTE=theoneceko;966863]there is some merit to wat u say, but ALL 18 0THER POSTS from chan look good

and ur not even trying to get mor info from his slot?? ur just like "i will shoot him haha"

whatever whatever

I AM DONE P0STING[/QUOTE]

I am trying to do exactly this, hence I haven't shot yet...

Originally Posted by theoneceko

like, i RLY shud not be defending chanel's wall for him, but u literally asked me for my opinion
chanel was just mad at u
true, ig... @ChannelMiner when MM himself asks u a question, u shud answer
i guess ?????

granted i litrally do not care about the quotes u pulled, if ur saying cm is scum then ur saying cm is worst scum of all time to shoot his teammate who had a gun

You are right... REEEEEEEEE lol. I AM INDECISIVEEEEEEEEEEE

Originally Posted by theoneceko

there is some merit to wat u say, but ALL 18 0THER POSTS from chan look good

and ur not even trying to get mor info from his slot?? ur just like "i will shoot him haha"

whatever whatever

I AM DONE P0STING

I am trying to do exactly this, hence I haven't shot yet...

[QUOTE=ChannelMiner;966852][vote]unvote[/vote]

[vote]MartinGG99[/vote][/QUOTE]

This counts as an unvote. To do this, just vote whoever you want to vote, there's no need to unvote first. Our bot understands. Nevertheless, may God have mercy upon your soul. Any last words [MENTION=46129]ChannelMiner[/MENTION]?

Originally Posted by ChannelMiner

-vote unvote

-vote MartinGG99

This counts as an unvote. To do this, just vote whoever you want to vote, there's no need to unvote first. Our bot understands. Nevertheless, may God have mercy upon your soul. Any last words @ChannelMiner ?

[QUOTE=theoneceko;966833][COLOR="#00FF00"][SIZE=6]LET IT BE CLEAR[/SIZE][/COLOR]

i want mart shot, not chan or me

goodnight[/QUOTE]

You don't want to be shot? What a strange person you are! :calix:

Seriously though, I am not shooting you, even though you would probably deserve it for your first post in the game xD. And whether you like it or not, Channel is scummier than Martin at the moment. You can't just judge Martin on the results of his actions and ignore the context of them. If I analyzed the game that way, you would have been shot a long time ago, considering you made the worst shot in recent FM history at the very start of this game...

And for what it's worth, in case the game doesn't just end with me shooting Channel, note that if I were scum, I would be completely scratching a free win obtained by shooting you and having Martin vote ChannelMiner.

Originally Posted by theoneceko

LET IT BE CLEAR

i want mart shot, not chan or me

goodnight

You don't want to be shot? What a strange person you are!

Seriously though, I am not shooting you, even though you would probably deserve it for your first post in the game xD. And whether you like it or not, Channel is scummier than Martin at the moment. You can't just judge Martin on the results of his actions and ignore the context of them. If I analyzed the game that way, you would have been shot a long time ago, considering you made the worst shot in recent FM history at the very start of this game...

And for what it's worth, in case the game doesn't just end with me shooting Channel, note that if I were scum, I would be completely scratching a free win obtained by shooting you and having Martin vote ChannelMiner.

[QUOTE=theoneceko;966814]not if mart votes u,
then chan + i lynch mart tomorrow

[vote]Marshmallow Marshall[/vote][/QUOTE]

if Martin votes me out of the blue after saying he isnt ever voting me, he is absolutely scum lol

Oh also, a case isn't "bad because it's opinionated". This sentence is dumb, it doesn't even make any sense: a case is necessarily opinionated, by definition...

anyway im out

Originally Posted by theoneceko

not if mart votes u,
then chan + i lynch mart tomorrow

-vote Marshmallow Marshall

if Martin votes me out of the blue after saying he isnt ever voting me, he is absolutely scum lol

Oh also, a case isn't "bad because it's opinionated". This sentence is dumb, it doesn't even make any sense: a case is necessarily opinionated, by definition...

anyway im out

I thought of something I really wanted to say before going off so I logged back in lol
[QUOTE=theoneceko;966812]u not shooting = u [COLOR="#FF0000"][SIZE=4]SCUM[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

you do realize that scum!me has martin pocketed and can very well shoot you and win by getting channel lynched, right? It's much safer for scum!me to just do that than to make a fuss right now. The reason I'm making a fuss right now is that I don't know for sure who is scum and don't know how whoever else is town will act VS just winning through lynching and 1v1ing scum in worst case scenario

And tbh, I do not want a stalemate & to block games in a silly way, so I am going to ask [MENTION=21928]MartinGG99[/MENTION] what he thinks should be done to make this work without just throwing the game if ceko decides to be the roadblock here. We have time (forever) and I'm off anyway so no emergency. But like, if we don't want to make this a stalemate, is shooting CM the way...? I feel like Ceko will be stubborn lol

I thought of something I really wanted to say before going off so I logged back in lol

Originally Posted by theoneceko

u not shooting = u SCUM

you do realize that scum!me has martin pocketed and can very well shoot you and win by getting channel lynched, right? It's much safer for scum!me to just do that than to make a fuss right now. The reason I'm making a fuss right now is that I don't know for sure who is scum and don't know how whoever else is town will act VS just winning through lynching and 1v1ing scum in worst case scenario

And tbh, I do not want a stalemate & to block games in a silly way, so I am going to ask @MartinGG99 what he thinks should be done to make this work without just throwing the game if ceko decides to be the roadblock here. We have time (forever) and I'm off anyway so no emergency. But like, if we don't want to make this a stalemate, is shooting CM the way...? I feel like Ceko will be stubborn lol

[QUOTE=theoneceko;966808]ive been punished for being indcisive before so i will NEVER vote chanel here[/QUOTE]

Then I guess this shall be a stalemate? :orp:

Originally Posted by theoneceko

ive been punished for being indcisive before so i will NEVER vote chanel here

Then I guess this shall be a stalemate?

I gtg as well. Ceko, have you actually read my big post explaining why Channel actually could well be scum and have simply bussed a scummate? I suggest you do, since you probably haven't. see you

I gtg as well. Ceko, have you actually read my big post explaining why Channel actually could well be scum and have simply bussed a scummate? I suggest you do, since you probably haven't. see you

Like, if I shoot the wrong person, this actually puts us in danger for no reason. This sucks. Damnit ceko lol.

Like, if I shoot the wrong person, this actually puts us in danger for no reason. This sucks. Damnit ceko lol.

[QUOTE=theoneceko;966800]u want to vote out BOTH ppl who shot a maf? mm this is rly, rly bad from u

chanel is ironically my top town, bc mm/mart r insanely voting him

mm see this from my perspective, ive no effin clue if ur maf or not but we've a 1/4 chance of killing scum [COLOR="#00FFFF"]today[/COLOR] and a 1/3 chance of killing scum [COLOR="#00FFFF"]tomorrow[/COLOR]
my reads late-game r always accurate, see third line butterfly, last hope and all stars. all stars i was in f4 situation and [COLOR="#00FFFF"]skipped[/COLOR] bc [COLOR="#00FF00"]STEALTH[/COLOR] told me to, then won

we lynch chanel today u r 100% scum. im not following u OR mart after [COLOR="#00FF00"]MIZ[/COLOR]lynch[/QUOTE]

:facepalm:

This lynch ain't happening, is it. Because we need all three townies to agree on a vote. What do we do then.

Originally Posted by theoneceko

u want to vote out BOTH ppl who shot a maf? mm this is rly, rly bad from u

chanel is ironically my top town, bc mm/mart r insanely voting him

mm see this from my perspective, ive no effin clue if ur maf or not but we've a 1/4 chance of killing scum today and a 1/3 chance of killing scum tomorrow
my reads late-game r always accurate, see third line butterfly, last hope and all stars. all stars i was in f4 situation and skipped bc STEALTH told me to, then won

we lynch chanel today u r 100% scum. im not following u OR mart after MIZlynch

This lynch ain't happening, is it. Because we need all three townies to agree on a vote. What do we do then.

[QUOTE=ChannelMiner;966795]@marshmallow is saving his shot for after we lynch another town so he wins the tie so I think if he is town he should just shoot.[/QUOTE]

You do understand that town me can win in 1v1 against Mafia because they can't shoot me but I can shoot them, right? So from my point of view, shooting is effectively throwing?

Originally Posted by ChannelMiner

@marshmallow is saving his shot for after we lynch another town so he wins the tie so I think if he is town he should just shoot.

You do understand that town me can win in 1v1 against Mafia because they can't shoot me but I can shoot them, right? So from my point of view, shooting is effectively throwing?

[QUOTE=ChannelMiner;966793]I just want you to shoot, then i will unvote[/QUOTE]

Thank you for reinforcing my hypothesis (i.e. that you want to get rid of what makes scum!you 100 % lose).

Originally Posted by ChannelMiner

I just want you to shoot, then i will unvote

Thank you for reinforcing my hypothesis (i.e. that you want to get rid of what makes scum!you 100 % lose).

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;966790]his vote got me thinking

I gave him blanket pass for the kill but like the vote earlier this phase was waaaaay tooo questionable

if anything I would expect a newbie to vote me or ceko....not you who has not shot at all nor has done shots as badly as either me or ceko has done[/QUOTE]

Yeah like, this feels completely off considering a newbie's typical reasoning.

@ ceko, the safest play is never for me to shoot anyone lol, the shot is a guaranteed win. If you weren't spewed town, I would say this is scummy... but you are, so I guess you're just wrong lol.

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

his vote got me thinking

I gave him blanket pass for the kill but like the vote earlier this phase was waaaaay tooo questionable

if anything I would expect a newbie to vote me or ceko....not you who has not shot at all nor has done shots as badly as either me or ceko has done

Yeah like, this feels completely off considering a newbie's typical reasoning.

@ ceko, the safest play is never for me to shoot anyone lol, the shot is a guaranteed win. If you weren't spewed town, I would say this is scummy... but you are, so I guess you're just wrong lol.

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;966786][vote]ChannelMiner[/vote]

MM's vote target has my vote, as stated I'm never voting for MM.

Quite nice to have thread-browsing activity info, as I was going to leave. Shame on me that I ironically have incognito mode on while saying this.[/QUOTE]

For information's sake, what do you think of my [I]reasons[/I] to vote CM here? If you have time to just quickly say it that is

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

-vote ChannelMiner

MM's vote target has my vote, as stated I'm never voting for MM.

Quite nice to have thread-browsing activity info, as I was going to leave. Shame on me that I ironically have incognito mode on while saying this.

For information's sake, what do you think of my reasons to vote CM here? If you have time to just quickly say it that is

[QUOTE=theoneceko;966785][COLOR="#00FFFF"]YOU can be scum, and chanel me miz all think that[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
eh, from your point of view, I guess that is fair
[QUOTE=theoneceko;966783][COLOR="#00FF00"]i wud never vote w martin..[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Have you considered my point on him locking himself out of a victory, though? Like, do you see a counterpoint to this?

Originally Posted by theoneceko

YOU can be scum, and chanel me miz all think that

eh, from your point of view, I guess that is fair

Originally Posted by theoneceko

i wud never vote w martin..

Have you considered my point on him locking himself out of a victory, though? Like, do you see a counterpoint to this?

Aamirus, you are the best sysadmin we currently have. This is a 100 % objectively true fact. :love:

Aamirus, you are the best sysadmin we currently have. This is a 100 % objectively true fact.

[QUOTE=MartinGG99;966777]anyways, I gotta go back to my really boring paper on the meaning & purpose of life

which is due like 23 hours from now[/QUOTE]

The meaning and purpose of life is to play FM and to enjoy it to the fullest

:calix:

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

anyways, I gotta go back to my really boring paper on the meaning & purpose of life

which is due like 23 hours from now

The meaning and purpose of life is to play FM and to enjoy it to the fullest

[QUOTE=theoneceko;966773][MENTION=29377]Marshmallow Marshall[/MENTION] ignore mart, idk if he just knows how to pocket u but:

1. [COLOR="#00FF00"]MIZ[/COLOR] and i wanted u to shoot mart
2. [COLOR="#00FF00"]MIZ[/COLOR] and [COLOR="#00FF00"]ober[/COLOR], [U][COLOR="#ADD8E6"]the two strongest town[/COLOR][/U], [COLOR="#00FF00"]liked[/COLOR] me and [COLOR="#FF0000"]disliked[/COLOR] mart. i can literally pull up quotes

it does not get simpler than this, and im pretty sure u will shoot mart anyways? u literally said u miz/mart were in ur poe and ceko [COLOR="#00FF00"]TOWN[/COLOR] befor u lynched miz[/QUOTE]

See the mechanical argument (Martin locking himself out from voting me, which dooms scum!him) in my last post. This is a path to defeat for scum!Martin. Also, my shot literally guarantees us the win (assuming town!MM, which I know to be true) even in 1v1 because of how the wincons are worded.

Originally Posted by theoneceko

@Marshmallow Marshall ignore mart, idk if he just knows how to pocket u but:

1. MIZ and i wanted u to shoot mart
2. MIZ and ober, the two strongest town, liked me and disliked mart. i can literally pull up quotes

it does not get simpler than this, and im pretty sure u will shoot mart anyways? u literally said u miz/mart were in ur poe and ceko TOWN befor u lynched miz

See the mechanical argument (Martin locking himself out from voting me, which dooms scum!him) in my last post. This is a path to defeat for scum!Martin. Also, my shot literally guarantees us the win (assuming town!MM, which I know to be true) even in 1v1 because of how the wincons are worded.

This is a quite surprising outcome (well, not much anymore since the game didn't end as soon as the lynch happened, so when I saw stealth was waiting on his deadline, I knew...). I thought my case really was good and in the end it was just wrong :(

[QUOTE=ChannelMiner;966755]WHY DID WE VOTE OUT THE DUDE WHO SHOT A GOON?!?!?

Fuck it I'm voting MM.

[vote]Marshmallow Marshall[/vote][/QUOTE]

Have you read the reasons I laid out yesterday? For real, this vote feels plain wrong, even from a newbie's perspective. It's like you are convinced of what should be done without really getting into the game, even though this is a wild game even by forum mafia standards... and this, as a newbie. Like, no, this doesn't work?


I am not voting or shoot ceko here, he's my top townread, ironically enough. I just don't see him being scum despite the spew. See yesterday's posts on his interactions. Besides, if ceko is scum, this is a highly ridiculous game lol, and it will mean we have to actively enforce a punitive meta towards trolly/anti-town actions.

Also, if we look at things from a more mechanical point of view...
The position Martin is adopting here is one that makes him 100 % lose if he's scum: if he doesn't get me lynched, he is one hundred percent certain to lose, because I will just shoot him in 1v1 even if he were to convince me to lynch everyone else.
Scum!ChannelMiner is in a similar situation... and o surprise, he wants me dead?

Also

[QUOTE=Marshmallow Marshall;966465]I agree with your vote, but why are you placing it?

And even more importantly... [I]why are you calling them "just dumb townies"?[/I] Are you voting people you townread? [B]I require explanations.[/B][/QUOTE]

In the end, this was never addressed by ChannelMiner, and it [I]could[/I] be a newbie scum's cognitive dissonance... [I]could[/I] be. All in all, CM appears to be the least towny of everyone here, considering the only thing that is really going for him is his shot on Oliver.

And if I stretch a bit:
[QUOTE=ChannelMiner;966455]I'm not sure how i can deduce who the goons are, I don't think ceko and martin are, i think they were just dumb townies.[/QUOTE]

could be TMI, especially considering the natural reaction of a newbie to such play usually isn't "oh it's just dumb town".

[vote]ChannelMiner[/vote]

Thoughts on the matter appreciated

This is a quite surprising outcome (well, not much anymore since the game didn't end as soon as the lynch happened, so when I saw stealth was waiting on his deadline, I knew...). I thought my case really was good and in the end it was just wrong

Originally Posted by ChannelMiner

WHY DID WE VOTE OUT THE DUDE WHO SHOT A GOON?!?!?

Fuck it I'm voting MM.

-vote Marshmallow Marshall

Have you read the reasons I laid out yesterday? For real, this vote feels plain wrong, even from a newbie's perspective. It's like you are convinced of what should be done without really getting into the game, even though this is a wild game even by forum mafia standards... and this, as a newbie. Like, no, this doesn't work?


I am not voting or shoot ceko here, he's my top townread, ironically enough. I just don't see him being scum despite the spew. See yesterday's posts on his interactions. Besides, if ceko is scum, this is a highly ridiculous game lol, and it will mean we have to actively enforce a punitive meta towards trolly/anti-town actions.

Also, if we look at things from a more mechanical point of view...
The position Martin is adopting here is one that makes him 100 % lose if he's scum: if he doesn't get me lynched, he is one hundred percent certain to lose, because I will just shoot him in 1v1 even if he were to convince me to lynch everyone else.
Scum!ChannelMiner is in a similar situation... and o surprise, he wants me dead?

Also

Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

I agree with your vote, but why are you placing it?

And even more importantly... why are you calling them "just dumb townies"? Are you voting people you townread? I require explanations.

In the end, this was never addressed by ChannelMiner, and it could be a newbie scum's cognitive dissonance... could be. All in all, CM appears to be the least towny of everyone here, considering the only thing that is really going for him is his shot on Oliver.

And if I stretch a bit:

Originally Posted by ChannelMiner

I'm not sure how i can deduce who the goons are, I don't think ceko and martin are, i think they were just dumb townies.

could be TMI, especially considering the natural reaction of a newbie to such play usually isn't "oh it's just dumb town".

-vote ChannelMiner

Thoughts on the matter appreciated

I am mostly waiting on [MENTION=21928]MartinGG99[/MENTION]'s input here to decide what should be done

I am mostly waiting on @MartinGG99 's input here to decide what should be done

[QUOTE=Mizery;966690]this post comes right after saying he thinks I'm a wolf. With a shot.

He thinks I'm a wolf? but also thinks MM isn't simply because MM has a shot?

but then he realizes what he said and goes back in the next post



And then follows a bunch of posts talking about the different scenario possiblities....who could be a wolf and whatnot....and....he ends up back at what?

Mizery/Ceko[/QUOTE]

Here's where I REALLY don't follow you. Why would scum!Martin, after realizing this, throw stuff by the window and start reevaluating like this? He doesn't need to sabotage his own case.

Originally Posted by Mizery

this post comes right after saying he thinks I'm a wolf. With a shot.

He thinks I'm a wolf? but also thinks MM isn't simply because MM has a shot?

but then he realizes what he said and goes back in the next post



And then follows a bunch of posts talking about the different scenario possiblities....who could be a wolf and whatnot....and....he ends up back at what?

Mizery/Ceko

Here's where I REALLY don't follow you. Why would scum!Martin, after realizing this, throw stuff by the window and start reevaluating like this? He doesn't need to sabotage his own case.