Why are cooperations so rare?

Originally I wanted to go on a long ramble babble jabber about my own thoughts on the topic until I realized that I don't even have any coherent thoughts on the subject myself and the best thing I can come up with are examples where cooperating with other players would be key but nobody does it. :laugh:

This is probably vague. But does anyone have any thoughts on this subject?

:spinda:

Or are they even rare?

:thinking:

Because you can't trust people?
You can't really co-operate with someone you don't trust.
So it rarely happens.

But when it does you get thinks like town block and stuff.

I think if they are rare or common depends on you. When you are uninformed town you have to act with suspicion but it is up to you what level of cooperation you give to others and accept from them.

In most games as town I triangulate my thoughts with the players I town read most (and consider to have a level of skill in scum hunting and communication that will make the interaction beneficial to me.) I ask them about their reads and I ask what they think of specific things I noticed. When their opinions are different from my own I consider if I may be mistaken.

I do the same on a general level with the aggregate opinion of my town reads. When my personal opinions differ from most of the players in the game I think are town I consider following their reads over my own.

I have found it can also help to 'trade effort.' Offering an in depth read on a player of their choosing and asking for one of your own in return.


On a basic level I think this sort of thought process makes sense because you are statistically more likely to be able to correctly peg a town player than a scum (simply because there are more town than scum.) I have also personally found it easier to identify a player as town with near certainty.

Anyways, I could probably keep rambling but in general I believe in the Tyler Durden "you control your level of involvement" line of thought on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Helz

I think if they are rare or common depends on you. When you are uninformed town you have to act with suspicion but it is up to you what level of cooperation you give to others and accept from them.

In most games as town I triangulate my thoughts with the players I town read most (and consider to have a level of skill in scum hunting and communication that will make the interaction beneficial to me.) I ask them about their reads and I ask what they think of specific things I noticed. When their opinions are different from my own I consider if I may be mistaken.

I do the same on a general level with the aggregate opinion of my town reads. When my personal opinions differ from most of the players in the game I think are town I consider following their reads over my own.

I have found it can also help to 'trade effort.' Offering an in depth read on a player of their choosing and asking for one of your own in return.


On a basic level I think this sort of thought process makes sense because you are statistically more likely to be able to correctly peg a town player than a scum (simply because there are more town than scum.) I have also personally found it easier to identify a player as town with near certainty.

Anyways, I could probably keep rambling but in general I believe in the Tyler Durden "you control your level of involvement" line of thought on this subject.

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Ahh.. now I put some thought into it..

I feel like I see people, at least on MU, do that constantly. Yet someone like me, who has read a fair amount of guides, isn't aware of this idea. Your previous thread was the first time I heard about it.

How many of these "yeah, we PRO's know this stuff, it's common knowledge" things exist that are not put in any guides? :sad:

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

How many of these "yeah, we PRO's know this stuff, it's common knowledge" things exist that are not put in any guides? :sad:

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Thats something that I specifically wanted to address by making some kinda master mafia guide. Now 5 years later I still have just put out bits and pieces partly because of my obsessive perfectionist nature and partly because its such a broad scope. Mafia is undoubtedly the most complex game I have ever played and there simply does not seem to be bounds limited what you can draw upon to play. To this day I am constantly still taking notes on things I would like to think and ramble about.

A substantial issue is that for someone getting into the game there is no real guide to improvement. Most people just end up playing games and kinda getting better with experience and seeing what others do. At the same time I do not think there is any significant effort to 'hide' knowledge. Make a topic or ask me anything and I will try to dump my mind onto the page for you if it helps.

-edit
Just for giggles here is the nonsense in my ideas doc I scribbled down over the last few weeks

Spoiler : Rambling notes (Mostly to do with mafia) :

Corporations pushing to avoid competition should be done by individuals marketing themselves for employment

Why do woodpeckers peck for 1-2 seconds and then stop for 2-4 over and over?

Mechanical hunting wagonomics valid because limits ‘noise’ data and points to relevant action points.

Response of ATE indicative of scum for people who respond with aggression/controlling nature

How to approach lylo

Mutt and jeff technique as strategy for revealing information

Always as sheriff reads list with peek being 1st read or clever wording like ‘Would town read even if subbed out’, N0 peek norms

Town slips- They are a thing and as useful as scum slips but more common

Always create a counter train- it creates information to analyze later and forces players to make a choice

Fight Bias of scum wouldent do X because its unthinkable to me- I struggle with too scummy to be scum all the time

If brain to body mass ratio reflects intelligence under the idea of less mass for the brain to control do people get stupid when fat?

Profitibilty to punishment ratio reflecting social marketability in white collar vs normal crime

Generation of frost reflecting mold creation because moisture cause

The hug- Reveal the ribs and be vulnerable, the bow- lower your eyes and leave yourself venerable, the head tilt- reveal the throat etc.

The protection that’s afforded to a group vs a person on par with a cult vs religion or a conspiracy vs a crime

Kingmaker play- setting yourself up to control end result. Always go for or go meta

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Originally Posted by Helz

Thats something that I specifically wanted to address by making some kinda master mafia guide. Now 5 years later I still have just put out bits and pieces partly because of my obsessive perfectionist nature and partly because its such a broad scope. Mafia is undoubtedly the most complex game I have ever played and there simply does not seem to be bounds limited what you can draw upon to play. To this day I am constantly still taking notes on things I would like to think and ramble about.

A substantial issue is that for someone getting into the game there is no real guide to improvement. Most people just end up playing games and kinda getting better with experience and seeing what others do. At the same time I do not think there is any significant effort to 'hide' knowledge. Make a topic or ask me anything and I will try to dump my mind onto the page for you if it helps.

-edit
Just for giggles here is the nonsense in my ideas doc I scribbled down over the last few weeks

Spoiler : Rambling notes (Mostly to do with mafia) :

Corporations pushing to avoid competition should be done by individuals marketing themselves for employment

Why do woodpeckers peck for 1-2 seconds and then stop for 2-4 over and over?

Mechanical hunting wagonomics valid because limits ‘noise’ data and points to relevant action points.

Response of ATE indicative of scum for people who respond with aggression/controlling nature

How to approach lylo

Mutt and jeff technique as strategy for revealing information

Always as sheriff reads list with peek being 1st read or clever wording like ‘Would town read even if subbed out’, N0 peek norms

Town slips- They are a thing and as useful as scum slips but more common

Always create a counter train- it creates information to analyze later and forces players to make a choice

Fight Bias of scum wouldent do X because its unthinkable to me- I struggle with too scummy to be scum all the time

If brain to body mass ratio reflects intelligence under the idea of less mass for the brain to control do people get stupid when fat?

Profitibilty to punishment ratio reflecting social marketability in white collar vs normal crime

Generation of frost reflecting mold creation because moisture cause

The hug- Reveal the ribs and be vulnerable, the bow- lower your eyes and leave yourself venerable, the head tilt- reveal the throat etc.

The protection that’s afforded to a group vs a person on par with a cult vs religion or a conspiracy vs a crime

Kingmaker play- setting yourself up to control end result. Always go for or go meta

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The one I like in your scribbles the most is about AtE being scummy specifically for Agressive players. That feels just so right..
Though, I imagine when an agressive players uses AtE - it ends up being gaslighting anyways.

Also, I must say, town slips are the most frustrating thing as Scum to see.
As such, I predict that it's only a matter of time for it(trying to fake it) to become a common tactic for scum players.

Always lynch TWTBAW, then there's nothing to think about in that regard. :blink1:

You actually made a note about woodpeckers :laugh:

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

You actually made a note about woodpeckers :laugh:

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For real though.. I spent like 8 hours one day reading about why dogs tilt their heads. I am curious as fuck as to why woodpeckers always follow those rhythms. On the surface I feel like its a 'dig' then 'pause to look' cycle but there might be something deep going on there.

There's 8 hours to read on why dogs tilt their heads? Dude..

*tilts head*

Cooperation sucks

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Originally Posted by Oberon

Cooperation sucks

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You have a significant FM experience.

Surely in all your games, there had to be at least one scum game where you and your team power-wolfed through and it felt amazing?
Or is everyone trying to throw you under a bus like I do? :D

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

You have a significant FM experience.

Surely in all your games, there had to be at least one scum game where you and your team power-wolfed through and it felt amazing?
Or is everyone trying to throw you under a bus like I do? :D

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I suck at scum. Always did, always will.
I'm only good at being neutral evil when it comes to evil roles.

But I get your point.

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

There's 8 hours to read on why dogs tilt their heads? Dude..

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Oh yeah. On the surface level it relates to how we are able to perceive direction around us but have issue with doing so vertically because anything in front or behind us the sound will impact both ears at the same time (while the tiny bits of time between soundwaves hitting would otherwise indicate direction. Humans have the advantage of having shaped ears so different pitches and angles of approach of sound waves will hit different parts of the ear which our brain can intemperate differently (That runs into a field of study called psychoacoustics) while dogs have no such advantage and depend exclusively on the temporal cues.
There was some youtube channel that got me going further down the rabbit hole but the guy explained it well.

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

You actually made a note about woodpeckers :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Helz

For real though.. I spent like 8 hours one day reading about why dogs tilt their heads. I am curious as fuck as to why woodpeckers always follow those rhythms. On the surface I feel like its a 'dig' then 'pause to look' cycle but there might be something deep going on there.

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

There's 8 hours to read on why dogs tilt their heads? Dude..

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I love you all lol

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Helz is right here: it depends on you. If you choose to town hunt, you will inevitably form a town block and cooperate with the people inside it. You will not cooperate with people you do not trust for obvious reasons: if you don't believe someone pursues the same goal you pursue and even that he completely opposes it, you won't invite him to help you and open your heart to him, since he could ruin everything.

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Originally Posted by Helz

my obsessive perfectionist nature

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@Helz
May I ask you something?
Thanks.

Do you remember the faces of your parents from when you grew up? Did they happen to look unusually Asian for their race? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

@Helz
May I ask you something?
Thanks.

Do you remember the faces of your parents from when you grew up? Did they happen to look unusually Asian for their race? :rolleyes:

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Lol~

Racist!!!!!!! : )

funny how some people get singled out for being racist on this site, and others nothing happens to them, i wonder why that is?

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Originally Posted by StarGunner

funny how some people get singled out for being racist on this site, and others nothing happens to them, i wonder why that is?

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Oh no, I was joking. I got in some trouble drunk rambling about cultural criminology as if a sociological concept that exists for every race could somehow be prejudiced. Now it’s something of a running joke.

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Originally Posted by Helz

Oh no, I was joking. I got in some trouble drunk rambling about cultural criminology as if a sociological concept that exists for every race could somehow be prejudiced. Now it’s something of a running joke.

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A related thought on this:

Imagine you made the argument that the descendents of Gopniks from X years ago in ex-soviet countries make up for the majority of prison populations in those countries today just because they are the descendants of the lowest citizen class.

Imagine you made the argument that the descendants of black people in America make up for the majority of prison populations today because they are the descendants of the lowest citizen class from Y years ago.

Ignoring wether it's true or wrong, are they not the same argument? I imagine that 1 would be labeled as racist. But maybe not.
:thinking:

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

A related thought on this:

Imagine you made the argument that the descendents of Gopniks from X years ago in ex-soviet countries make up for the majority of prison populations in those countries today just because they are the descendants of the lowest citizen class.

Imagine you made the argument that the descendants of black people in America make up for the majority of prison populations today because they are the descendants of the lowest citizen class from Y years ago.

Ignoring wether it's true or wrong, are they not the same argument? I imagine that 1 would be labeled as racist. But maybe not.
:thinking:

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I think there are some differences for sure but your point connects 'crime' to 'socio-economic status' and collaterally to 'African American and Gopniks' as a function of that. I personally do not feel that can be racist simply because socio-economic stats is not a race and someone would have to argue a lack of disparity existing to break that connection.

My point on systemic racism is that active racist action was taken in laws and sentencing that targeted African American culture and that crime culture plays a substantial factor in recidivism while culture in general also alters where people get their acceptance and what they strive towards.

I will point out the fact I am having an issue on another site (although strongly because I chose to open my mouth while drunk which I knew was a problem and actively have been working on not doing here) is evidence that the position is contentious across multiple communities. You could point to that representing bias in individual treatment if I had made that point here and been treated differently than you but I basically made it somewhere else and was treated worse than you (although that situation is still unfolding)

So I duno. This is radically off topic and probably a subject for the serious discussion subject if you want to continue it but I do understand where you are coming from. I always cut back to intent and when there is no malicious intent the best someone can argue in good faith is that you have bias as opposed to being discriminatory..

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Originally Posted by Helz

I always cut back to intent and when there is no malicious intent the best someone can argue in good faith is that you have bias as opposed to being discriminatory..

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How can one know if another has no malicious intent though?
It seems that Holocaust Deniers always tend to look innocent but are malicious.
From just asking innocent questions like "what materials were used for gas-chamber doors" to citing sources that fit their agenda, it's everything you'd expect from someone honest. They probably are (to themselves). But through repeated interactions with many such people, the mods behind that article have come to a conclusion that the people are incapable of changing their own minds.
So the best those mods can do is ban them on first sight to at least limit the spread of misinformation.

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Originally Posted by Helz

(although that situation is still unfolding)

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Tbh there's nothing to unfold. The rules and moderation there are focused on whatever makes more people stay and less people leave. They're not exactly keeping it a secret, they even repeat it in the rules "People leave the server because they don't care to hear your opinions on the subject, and they don't want your opinions on the subject made into the topic of a casual conversation." or "We will take notice if you are behaving in a manner that causes people to leave our site or moderated discord. ".
You got on bad terms with the natives. If you notice the feedbacks and notice the main motivation behind their rules and moderation, then I think you'll come to the same conclusion that there's nothing more to unfold. :blink1:

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

How can one know if another has no malicious intent though?
It seems that Holocaust Deniers always tend to look innocent but are malicious.
From just asking innocent questions like "what materials were used for gas-chamber doors" to citing sources that fit their agenda, it's everything you'd expect from someone honest. They probably are (to themselves). But through repeated interactions with many such people, the mods behind that article have come to a conclusion that the people are incapable of changing their own minds.
So the best those mods can do is ban them on first sight to at least limit the spread of misinformation.

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Thats a very complicated question. In moderation I think an appropriate start is to consider an individuals history. There is also the aspect that some subjects are just too much for public conversation imo. And then people have to activly question their own implicit bias on subjects and understand when a significant amount express their opinions are prejudiced they may well be even if that same individual does not recognize it.

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

Tbh there's nothing to unfold. The rules and moderation there are focused on whatever makes more people stay and less people leave. They're not exactly keeping it a secret, they even repeat it in the rules "People leave the server because they don't care to hear your opinions on the subject, and they don't want your opinions on the subject made into the topic of a casual conversation." or "We will take notice if you are behaving in a manner that causes people to leave our site or moderated discord. ".
You got on bad terms with the natives. If you notice the feedbacks and notice the main motivation behind their rules and moderation, then I think you'll come to the same conclusion that there's nothing more to unfold. :blink1:

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There is quite a bit. I am pretty confident I could just totally network around the issue but I don't want to. Also I have herd whispers from more than 1 person their judgment on a perma ban is not actually their judgment but something they intend to hold to scare me into something. That runs into an issue I have with their moderation style that relys on fearmongering but I am in no position to address that right now.

There is a lot going on in that situation I just don't want to talk about until its resolved but I don't feel the situation is anywhere near its place of conclusion. I will respect their decision regardless of what it is but honestly they could have at any moment used their words and I would have respected their desires every bit as much as a ban. And its honestly not like a ban mean much when I have something like 20 smurfs on their site although I will never use one if they land on wanting me gone in the end.