random FM poll

I feel like most of the FM world have evolved towards playing the game in as a calm, gentle and friendly fashion as possible. I just don't see that kind of deliberate emotional pressure that Distorted brought to people years back when I first started playing.

So too are fake claim gambits just a SC2Mafia thing, where people try to catch the scum offguard.

Probably emotional pressure is good for scumhunting. Probably staying friendly is good for community. But how essential are they? How detrimental are they to the other?

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

I feel like most of the FM world have evolved towards playing the game in as a calm, gentle and friendly fashion as possible. I just don't see that kind of deliberate emotional pressure that Distorted brought to people years back when I first started playing.

So too are fake claim gambits just a SC2Mafia thing, where people try to catch the scum offguard.

Probably emotional pressure is good for scumhunting. Probably staying friendly is good for community. But how essential are they? How detrimental are they to the other?

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Okay so here's my POV on this

If you go hard enough to make someone an angry town, they will likely OMGUS you and further get themselves scumread

However if you notify someone that they are scumread by you and get them to explain the stuff that made you scumread them, there is a higher chance of them being able to clear it up especially if they are town. Not saying emotional pressure isn't good, but it is more prone to make town make mistakes.

I think its a necessity

MM's favorite berries are Dangle Berries covered In Mucus.

I think it depends on the person. I don’t think anyone would consider me “friendly” in an FM game.

Emotional pressure is not something I'm comfortable applying, both because I feel bad manipulating people and because it tends to create sad TvT situations that severely harm town. If your scumread feels the pressure without straight up feeling emotionally attacked, he will give the most precious information imo, because the associations easily come into play, since the scumread's play is rational and usually calculated.

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

MM's favorite berries are Dangle Berries covered In Mucus.

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I confirm

@Helz
Give me 1 sentence, please please pretty please.
Any sentence.

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Emotional pressure is not something I'm comfortable applying, both because I feel bad manipulating people and because it tends to create sad TvT situations that severely harm town. If your scumread feels the pressure without straight up feeling emotionally attacked, he will give the most precious information imo, because the associations easily come into play, since the scumread's play is rational and usually calculated.



I confirm

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I strongly disagree. Take a look at previous FM games on this site from around the time we started playing. It’s easier to catch scum when you’re putting pressure on everyone. As to the TvT comment, TvT battles, when both parties pressure each other, are strong sources of reads. True TvT battles tend to be very harsh and personal.

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Originally Posted by Oberon

I strongly disagree. Take a look at previous FM games on this site from around the time we started playing. It’s easier to catch scum when you’re putting pressure on everyone. As to the TvT comment, TvT battles, when both parties pressure each other, are strong sources of reads. True TvT battles tend to be very harsh and personal.

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I read people better than I did back then lol, so nah

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

@Helz
Give me 1 sentence, please please pretty please.
Any sentence.

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Will do once I am showered and feel human again.

I think it’s highly situational. Sometimes it’s good to apply pressure both to get reactions out of the target as well as to draw attention to the target. At the same time I more often try to explain my reasoning because every bit as much as giving a read is to push your perspective to the town it’s also to allow other players to read you. Making people feel ‘attacked’ sounds like it’s not even game/slot directed and I have often seen pushes break down into ego fights because someone came at someone else sideways.

I would probably ramble more in depth if I was not exhausted and posting from a phone but I feel like there is a time to sift through your reads and a time to apply pressure. Think about what you are attempting to accomplish with your scum read before positioning it so you can achieve the desired result.

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

I read people better than I did back then lol, so nah

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Distorted always finds 2-3 scum d1 by pressure :)

I don't think anyone pressured as Distorted did

He was like the extreme..

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

He was like the extreme..

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Which is why nobody is as good as he is. :D

I have a gambit planned for this sort of emotional pressure you're talking about. Curious to see it in application to be honest. It's a fairly safe gambit that doesn't really affect the town much... might make other people call you an idiot at worst :smile:

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Originally Posted by Oberon

Which is why nobody is as good as he is. :D

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Tbf, the actual method how he done it was to Gish Gallop reasons for why someone is scum.
It being an eristic technique is inherently scummy.
To quote MM:

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

The fact it's an eristic technique is enough to make it scummy or at least somewhat suspicious to use in Mafia, though. At some point, people started actually scumreading Disto and Blink for doing that, so the strategy significantly lost of its efficiency. Trap avoided!

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You need to read into players' emotional state. It's hard to gauge someone's alignment merely from what they're doing in the thread. And I don't agree Distorted was Gish galloping as Town. Almost every time he did that he was scum. He would hit you with a flurry of arguments that he considered to be correct, if he scumread you and he was town. But he never lied about reads when making a serious push at someone.

He would sometimes throw random shit your way if he was trying to figure out your alignment, but it was never as intense as when he scum painted ppl as Mafia.

I'm also not sure if MM realises that when a scum is Gish-galloping they no longer care about being townread. You can be scummy af and yet still push a Lynch even with people mistrusting you if you push it hard enough and don't relent to explain yourself. In fact, even with a good argument, if you keep doubting yourself and people aren't reading, they will likely sooner listen to the more aggressive, assertive person, even if they find them objectively scummy.

What’s Gish-galloping refer to? That’s a new one for me

Basically flooding the thread with BS

most of the time I expect scumreads to react to it especially if they're invested into the game

bc if I'm town and their town then we gotta work together to find eachother

though I think it can be more nuanced than this

it doesn't have to be anger though or big appeals-to-emotions; just something to see they took note of it and are adjusting accordingly to help me find them town and my reads will further develop one way or another based on that

seeing relaxation or ignorance generally is a problem for me unless its very early game or they have the sort-of player archetype to support that response or play; otherwise imo they're just ignoring it because they either

1) Don't find it important to correct me
2) Are hoping relaxation and that "a wolf wouldn't do this" will save them
2b) Don't think they can convince me or something

Yeah some Town mislynches can feel like a throw from the perspective of someone invested in the game..

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Originally Posted by Helz

What’s Gish-galloping refer to? That’s a new one for me

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oberon

Basically flooding the thread with BS

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I'd bet that Helz can't fathom how would that not get insta lynched. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Oberon

You need to read into players' emotional state. It's hard to gauge someone's alignment merely from what they're doing in the thread. And I don't agree Distorted was Gish galloping as Town. Almost every time he did that he was scum. He would hit you with a flurry of arguments that he considered to be correct, if he scumread you and he was town. But he never lied about reads when making a serious push at someone.

He would sometimes throw random shit your way if he was trying to figure out your alignment, but it was never as intense as when he scum painted ppl as Mafia.

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Three words.

Black
Flag
Nightless

Remember the crazy TvT fight I had with him in which I deliberately tunneled him (and stopped later so that we could actually win)? We were scumpainting eachother like crazy lol, and he was town. I think that was your first FM game ever, actually ^^

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Three words.

Black
Flag
Nightless

Remember the crazy TvT fight I had with him in which I deliberately tunneled him (and stopped later so that we could actually win)? We were scumpainting eachother like crazy lol, and he was town. I think that was your first FM game ever, actually ^^

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Yeah but he genuinely believed you were evil.

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Originally Posted by Oberon

Yeah but he genuinely believed you were evil.

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Yes, but that's past the point: he was town, yet he pressured and gish-gallopped like crazy. My gambit was really weird in hindsight, and I think it worked only because we all were more or less new and because we were really chaotic players.

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Yes, but that's past the point: he was town, yet he pressured and gish-gallopped like crazy. My gambit was really weird in hindsight, and I think it worked only because we all were more or less new and because we were really chaotic players.

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I dare say it worked by because 2 out of 3 mafias were completely new players who got frozen; one of which hard bussed the other unnecessarily, after which he subbed out. Tbh, I wouldn't know what to do today either. But I would had felt good about the credit I gained from the hard bus I guess.

Whatever happend to Ratatoskr btw? He was so good I think. Is he Frinckles? Feels like Frinckles is him idk why.

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Yes, but that's past the point: he was town, yet he pressured and gish-gallopped like crazy. My gambit was really weird in hindsight, and I think it worked only because we all were more or less new and because we were really chaotic players.

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No lol it's exactly the point: Gish-galloping is throwing nonsense you don't even believe in. In his mind it was not nonsense, no more than the accusations I throw in the mod at people are nonsense. there's a huge difference between Gish-galloping (which is scumpainting done right) and scumreading someone.

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

I dare say it worked by because 2 out of 3 mafias were completely new players who got frozen; one of which hard bussed the other unnecessarily, after which he subbed out. Tbh, I wouldn't know what to do today either. But I would had felt good about the credit I gained from the hard bus I guess.

Whatever happend to Ratatoskr btw? He was so good I think. Is he Frinckles? Feels like Frinckles is him idk why.

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Ratatoskr is... a weird person. No, Frinckles is not Ratatoskr. Let's just leave it at "weird". It's a relatively long story what happened to him. Suffice it to say he no longer liked Skwirl and left.

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Originally Posted by Oberon

No lol it's exactly the point: Gish-galloping is throwing nonsense you don't even believe in. In his mind it was not nonsense, no more than the accusations I throw in the mod at people are nonsense. there's a huge difference between Gish-galloping (which is scumpainting done right) and scumreading someone.

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Wasn't it just about throwing immense amounts of arguments (good or not) to overload others?