Why do admins, developers, and moderators allow prefer and blacklist abuse system to persist?

How many times does the actual playerbase need to tell you prefer and blacklist is broken before something is done about it? Just like the racism problem which took far long to start banning, it seems that the powers that be, the developers, and admins, seem to prefer to have this system in place to allow people who paid for points the ability to abuse the system.

Stop pandering to the so called 'veterans' who do nothing but abuse the system. You lose far more new players than you would lose vets from removing or severely nerfing these functions.

And it is sad thin skinned people like rumox have chosen to silence any discussion of this topic on discord, but I don't expect much from him anyway.

Dec 31, 2021
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...ghlight=prefer

Nov 22, 2021
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...ghlight=prefer

May 8th, 2021
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...ghlight=prefer

July 10th, 2013
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...efer+blacklist

March 31, 2012
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...efer+blacklist



Is the solution for people to start preferring gov, using the same name over and over again, and dying n1?

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Originally Posted by Renegade

it seems that the powers that be, the developers, and admins, seem to prefer to have this system in place to allow people who paid for points the ability to abuse the system.

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Humor me why would they care about the donor part

Aha, look at this discussion from 2016.

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...t=prefer+abuse

There were multiple "veterans" including me who supported nerfing the feature to make it more inclusive for new players without utterly screwing old players over.

Funny how Voss realized prefer ws a terrible idea for Narrator.

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Originally Posted by Voss

Thinking about implementing prefer. Does 'prefer'ing give the user any information on what's in the game? If so what could be a good system to implement that avoids this?

*I'm thinking of generating the roles list first, then doling out roles based on what's available.

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Originally Posted by Cryptonic

It does give information. If you prefer something in a game and don't receive that role, it means that the role isn't in the game or that someone else who has prefer got it.

I am kind of against prefer function, tbh lol, so I am biased against it.

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Originally Posted by Elixir

^ this.

blacklist gives a whole lot less information. So if you were going to put any reward system in, the ability to veto a few roles generally can't tell you anything.

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Originally Posted by Voss

yeah, I definitely see how introducing prefer could impact people who play a lot, and motivation, so the actual allowed use cases should probably be revisited at some point. I was just asking on if there's any extra info on playing with prefer.

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And dear rumox, regarding this:

rumox — Today at 10:25 PM
What annoys me the most about this entire situation is Frinckles has publicly stated his is aware of peoples concerns regarding the commands. If you are upset that he isn't working fast enough, cry me a fucking river because you don't pay him to do that

I'm pointing out how again and again there has been absolutely nothing concrete on the record about these systems changing, other than nebulous "let's look at it", despite time and time again many people bringing it up.

Sorry that you feel the need to abuse your discord mod powers, but, then again, I'm not surprised.

I mean he released 2.0 less than a month ago. You could just calm down and acknowledge that Frinckles has not been in charge of development for that long.

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Originally Posted by Recett

I suggest remove the -prefer feature. Troll always abuse that feature.

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From 2014!

Mmmm. I hate the text size in the first post.

Puts me off bigtime.

Something to keep in mind is that giving someone something is reacted to in a positive way as 'nice'
Taking something away from people is reacted to in a negative manner but on a much more extreme level as 'WHAT THE FUCK! I SPENT 200 HOURS TO EARN THIS BENIFIT!'

These are things that take consideration when dealing with game development. Its about creating a positive experience but when you establish goals people work for and then take their reward away it destroys loyalty in a way that is unfair. You can say that the system itself is unfair to some but I do not think the solution would be to eliminate the functions entirely.

I will also say your connecting donations to prefer/blacklist is misguided. Its never been a pay-to-win function and the amount of money that comes from donations is nothing these days. Lots of stuff has been done over the years to address prefer/blacklist abuse that you probably don't know about. At one point I was tracking active large point players and integrated a system to break those commands for anyone not on an exception list to prevent bank editing players on smurf accounts from spam creating accounts to reveal the mafia team. Also a limit was placed on the functions while they were initially made without any.

To the point it would be more constructive for you to talk about potential solutions than just rant about how the entire staff must be corrupt and greedy for donations. I worked on moderation and on the map itself for many years and have never gotten a dollar for it. Outside of the occasional 'Let me order a pizza for you' that happens from internet people hanging out I can confidently say no admin or mod ever received income from the game in any way.

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Originally Posted by Helz

To the point it would be more constructive for you to talk about potential solutions

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Potential solutions have been discussed ad nauseum in the linked threads.

As for changes to them, I was always under the impression that blacklist was 10 roles and prefer 3, in some of the referenced threads people believe it is 5 and 5. Come to find out it is actually 10/10.

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Originally Posted by Renegade

Potential solutions have been discussed ad nauseum in the linked threads.

As for changes to them, I was always under the impression that blacklist was 10 roles and prefer 3, in some of the referenced threads people believe it is 5 and 5. Come to find out it is actually 10/10.

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You would have to ask Frinckles if that is intended. I believe it was something like 5/5 when I messed with the map and I remember at one point Rev intentionally nerfed the function to be less than it was originally.

Again though, There may be an issue worth addressing here but you are not going about it in a way that is productive to creating that change. The level of aggression and assumption of bad faith actions you are pushing do not line up with what you can reason about the situation.

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Originally Posted by Helz

You would have to ask Frinckles if that is intended. I believe it was something like 5/5 when I messed with the map and I remember at one point Rev intentionally nerfed the function to be less than it was originally.

Again though, There may be an issue worth addressing here but you are not going about it in a way that is productive to creating that change. The level of aggression and assumption of bad faith actions you are pushing do not line up with what you can reason about the situation.

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I linked several posts that show the discussion over YEARS has gone absolutely no where.

So what do you suggest? Another thread of suggestions to add to the pile?

Blacklist was always 10 slots (mafia/triad roles always take 2 slots each tho) and Prefer was always 15 slots.

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Originally Posted by Renegade

I linked several posts that show the discussion over YEARS has gone absolutely no where.

So what do you suggest? Another thread of suggestions to add to the pile?

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Except that Frinckles wasn’t making changes during those years that you continuously refer to.

Anyone can see that Frinckles is listening to the players and actively changing/adding things to the game based on player opinion. He has also stated he’s pushing an update out in February, so maybe wait for him to finish working on that and give him a chance to actually consider these changes that you and others have brought up. This isn’t something that will get changed in a day, and you repeatedly bringing up the same points over and over is not going to make it faster.

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Originally Posted by Renegade

I linked several posts that show the discussion over YEARS has gone absolutely no where.

So what do you suggest? Another thread of suggestions to add to the pile?

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Sure. But think about it. You start off the conversation by accusing all staff of acting against the community to profit from donations in huge lettering and then spam a bunch of links. Put yourself in my shoes. If you just told me I am a greedy asshole for not resolving an issue how motivated am I to go dig through those links and comments to look at arguments and potential solutions?

As others have said Freckles is doing amazing things for the map but he is just getting going and has a lot on his plate. Being critical of him as a dev is unfair. So here are some suggestions-

1- Give thought to what you say before you say it. The arguments you made were both insulting and irrational in some respects.
2- Be respectful of the people working to create a good experience. Do not start out by insulting their integrity when asking them to do work for your benefit.
3- Offer workable solutions while presenting a problem. Anyone can yell about something being screwed up but that does very little to solve the issue.
4- Do leg work to solve the problem you are presenting. I am sure in the truckload of links you dumped there is good feedback but why not sort that information to make it accessible.

Just imagine how different this conversation could have gone if you were like "Hey guys, The prefer/blacklist system is unfair to new players and this has been an issue for years. Why don't we limit the slots to X under X logic?"

I am just trying to underline how ineffective it is to insult people, demand they work for your benefit and also expect them to find solutions to the problem you present. There are better ways to advocate for changes.

Protect Frinckles plz.

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Originally Posted by Helz

Just imagine how different this conversation could have gone if you were like "Hey guys, The prefer/blacklist system is unfair to new players and this has been an issue for years. Why don't we limit the slots to X under X logic?"

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You didn't look at the recent threads I listed, did you.

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Originally Posted by Renegade

You didn't look at the recent threads I listed, did you.

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No. Why would I? I acknowledged the issue you voiced is potentially a problem that should be addressed and I also pointed out how poorly you went about doing it.

What makes you feel its acceptable to expect others to do that leg work for you in general? Why don't you take a moment to consolidate opinions you see that would be good solutions so a good solution could be implemented without demanding other people (who already have obligations on their time to help the community,) to be required to do that leg work? On the most basic level if you were to treat yourself as a part of the streamlined process to resolve an issue at scale you should acknowledge how contributing to the solution is a function.

..If that makes sense..

If people like Frinckles/Elixir/Helz (I know there are others I’m missing) weren’t doing more updates to the game, then it would stay the same as it has been for these past several years and prefer definitely wouldn’t be seeing any changes. There’s a lot of work that goes into it and they definitely get more grief than they deserve for doing anything to begin with. Appreciate the fact that anything is happening to begin with.

You can heckle me all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that all of what you are asking for Helz has already been done and (apparently) largely ignored.

And of course I understand the thankless task of being a developer. I'm a donor, I don't expect anything of it, but that doesn't mean I won't point out how this has been an issue brought up for YEARS and tabled every single time.

So many complaints about lobbies not filling, yet you let the so called "veterans" reign over the game with broken mechanics like prefer for... reasons? to appease them?

I guarantee you would get more new players over time than lose so called "veterans" if they couldn't prefer.

And if somemone needs prefer to enjoy sc2mafia, then that says a lot about them.

Funny. I have been -prefer constable, jester, jailor, vigilante for days now and have gotten Jailor once. I was starting to think that -prefer had been modified, but then I remembered that nothing is guaranteed.

I like -prefer and -blacklist and hope they stay. Not just because people have paid real money to support the mod, and they should be respected, but because it gives people something to work towards.... an ultimate goal. There is value in that.

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Originally Posted by Frinckles

Monitoring this thread, but roles are generated before prefer.

You cannot -prefer cult to invoke cult 100% of the time if it has a 0.001% to spawn.

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Frinckles clearly indicates he is aware of your concern in one of the threads you linked. Discussion has happened and will keep happening regarding it until a final consensus is found. There is also a thread he made for ideas that this would fall under here. If you want to help, throw your idea(s) in there. When looking at overhauling prefer/blacklist it brings into question the entire point system itself. Sure Frinckles could just remove the feature all together, but that's quite the kneejerk reaction that shouldn't be done until other alternatives are exhausted.

There isn't some conspiracy to ignore prefer/blacklist. Stop looking for a boogeyman that isn't there. Your concern is noted and Frinckles is planning on something to resolve this. If you aren't happy that it hasn't been resolved yet, I suggest you respect that Frinckles has a life.

iirc Frinck said on Discord he has an idea in mind about prefer and will implement it in Feb patch.

He is aware of the feedback and is working on it.

We should wait until Feb patch before commenting further. I don't think there's much constructive conversation to be had now.

Also heckling him is DEFINITELY counter-productive and not very nice to a volunteer developer. He has done and is doing a lot for the community without asking for reward. The least we can all do is show him some respect.

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Originally Posted by Renegade

You can heckle me all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that all of what you are asking for Helz has already been done and (apparently) largely ignored.

And of course I understand the thankless task of being a developer. I'm a donor, I don't expect anything of it, but that doesn't mean I won't point out how this has been an issue brought up for YEARS and tabled every single time.

So many complaints about lobbies not filling, yet you let the so called "veterans" reign over the game with broken mechanics like prefer for... reasons? to appease them?

I guarantee you would get more new players over time than lose so called "veterans" if they couldn't prefer.

And if somemone needs prefer to enjoy sc2mafia, then that says a lot about them.

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I apologize if thats what you feel I am doing. It is not my intention and I am more trying to address 'how' you went about this issue than 'what' you were discussing.

Although I disagree nothing has been done. I am not sure how its at 10/10 now but Rev nerfed blacklist and prefer back in the day because of feedback. There was also a change to tie them to banks to allow the functions to persist through games eliminating the requirement to punch in the roles every time at some point. I believe prefer or blacklist also got a probability nerf at one point reducing their function behind the scenes.

I feel like some of this is an issue of perspective. Every player that comes to the forum has ideas they want implemented and things they see as problems. Its easy to grab 1 thing and point to it as being ignored. You could probably dig up some role or mechanic suggestion thats been brought up 20 times over the years but the simple fact is that time is limited and this is not a professional 'for profit' organization. Its not that there is some evil interest in not doing something players voiced they want, its that there is a holy fucking shit amount of stuff the playerbase asks for and limited resources to implement stuff. Combine that with the fact players do not understand when and how changes are made and its easy to think nothing is being done and people are apathetic to the problem.

As I said before if you present a solution with a problem it decreases the time demand on the people who do not have enough time to do everything the community wants anyways and increases the chances a problem will be fixed. Assembly line functions in healthcare refer to these demands as barriers to treatment. If you have 'free' healthcare that requires 20 hours of paperwork you will be less likely to show up for treatment. The cost/benefit of time requirements directly impacts throughput so pragmatically speaking if your goal is to 'fix' an issue reducing the cost while leveraging the benefit would be a more effective way to market the issue.

Are we seriously still complaining about this? And since when did few loud minority became the 'actual playerbase?'

The developers are aware of this issue. What is so hard to understand that things take time. Is Frinckles someone who gets paid 6 figures with a team of 100 software engineers? He is doing this in his own time. So respect the work they are doing by keeping quiet after you alerted them with your problem with the game.

And why is it so wrong for developers to 'appease' veterans who has SUPPORTED THIS GAME OVER THE YEARS BY ACTUALLY PLAYING THIS? Without so called veteran players, SC2 wouldn't be here now. Because of veteran players who maintained this game, we are still enjoying it. Is that hard to understand? Every other game has some sort of progression system that allows veteran players to let others know they have supported the game? If someone wants to show they have earned what they earned, don't antagonize them for something they earned and let them! Or do you want to remove cosmetics and colour names as well because they 'flaunt' your veteraness as well? How about the achievement list? Heck, let's just remove the whole point system huh because that's the root cause of your problem?

I've already gone over this in the other thread how unlikely it is for you to actually get the role even if you 'prefer'. It's not like everyone who can, prefer every game anyway. So I'm not going to go over this again, but the bottom line is, prefer is perfectly fine as is. If you are still looking for faults in the system, then it is more likely to be with blacklist because blacklist is even more powerful than prefer as it pushes unwanted roles to other players.

It's probably been suggested but I stopped reading after I posted my last one because I thought it was pointless to discuss further. But since the 'actual playerbase' apparently still deeply cares enough to create yet another thread, the solution is simple.

Nerf size of blacklist and prefer, e.g. 4-5 blacklists, 2-3 prefer.


Stop pursuing this issue until the developers make a decision about it and work on it. You are free to dislike the state of the game, but you are also free to not play this game if it affects you this much.