Uvalde and American Gun Control

This is partly just starting a topic on an interesting conversation we were having in Skwirl discord

Spoiler : Uvalde Shooting :

Some verified facts from the Director of Texas State Police in a special senate committee before their full investigation is concluded. I figured outlining it could contribute to the conversation of gun control

-The shooter had been charged with domestic abuse but the local courts did not report it to the federal government allowing him to pass a background check and buy firearms
-The exterior door lock failed to engage allowing the shooter uninhibited access to the building
-Even if the exterior door lock had engaged it was not built to established standards and would have been easily breached
-There was no duress (mass alert) system resulting in some teachers not knowing there was a mass shooting going on in their school for some time
-The emergency evacuation diagrams were missing in many locations and some were wrong. (They are generally used by first responders to understand building layouts and such for immediate decisions so they dont have to wait for blueprints)
-The incorrect diagrams resulted in a sniper being sent to a position in the library to have a window shot at the suspect while no such shot was possible
-The interior classroom doors were not built with hardware that allowed teachers to lock them from inside. The strike plate for the door lock was compromised. Requests were made by teachers to have the lock fixed but those requests were ignored
-The school resource officer was off location and actually drove past the shooter as he was headed towards the school
-The local Chief of police was the first on scene and took the role of scene commander personally
-The Chief of police did not have a radio resulting in him trying to coordinate the scene by phone with dispatch
-Inside of the school every agency's other than border patrols radios would not function well to communicate outside of the school
-The dispatcher conveyed the wrong room number initially briefly sending police to the wrong room
-Standard Operating Procedure for an active shooter is to immediately assault. Standard Operating Procedure for a barricaded suspect is to isolate and distract. The Chief made the decision to isolate the shooter and wait for Swat against SOP
-Multiple officers pushed to assault but were ordered to hold a perimeter and wait
-Some officers acted against orders to wait and instead evacuated children
-The state investigation concluded within 3 minutes enough officers (7) were on site with appropriate equipment to act
-The Chief declined others suggestions to breach in favor of waiting for a master key
-There was no 'Knock box' which is a box that is suppose to exist with keys for first responders
-The Chief declined others suggestions to engage the suspect through exterior windows in favor of waiting on getting a key to the door
-The school had multiple master keys resulting in it taking longer
-The parents of children's response to try to rush the building resulted in many police being pulled off the situation to hold back parents
-BORTAC (pretty much like a swat unit on steroids that specializes as cartel killers) ended up finally breaching and killing the shooter roughly an hour and a half later

The ideology of the 2nd Amendment is contested on a few points:
-Some believe guns should only exist for personal defense or hunting
-Others believe they exist as a balance towards an oppressive government (with the inclusion of having a well trained militia)
-Some believe the amendment did not account for how advanced guns have become and should not apply to some classes of weapons

I feel that no reasonable steps are taken to help the issue because the two major positions want absolute extremes:
-One side wants some guns banned for everyone without exception and a long term goal of removing them entirely
-The other side wants all guns to be legal and feels any step towards restriction is a violation of civil rights

On gun control I personally disagree with the idea of trying to disarm American civilians. I get that worked for most places in the world but that ship sailed a very long time ago here and I do not see it as a viable solution. The credible number I found was in 2017 there are 1.2 guns for every person in America.

I also feel an intelligent conversation on American gun control should include consideration to the unique issue America has that other places do not- Massive amounts of armed criminals and an aggressive cartel presence.

German police fires about 35-75 bullets at people per year, killing between 6 and 15 people. Every bullet is recorded.

Ohio police just fired more bullets at a single unarmed man than German police uses in an entire year.

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Originally Posted by SuperJack

German police fires about 35-75 bullets at people per year, killing between 6 and 15 people. Every bullet is recorded.

Ohio police just fired more bullets at a single unarmed man than German police uses in an entire year.

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Please tell me your not talking about Jayland Walker. The guy that stole a car and shot at cops.

There is a really disgusting industry out there just dedicated to spreading misinformation about police. Sadly by the time people figure out they have been told some bullshit the riots have already happened and the 'oh we were wrong' is a squeak that does nothing to recover the damage done to police reputation.
I honestly do not think any other country in the world has such groups and individuals that go out of their way to profit from pushing a hateful rhetoric about police.

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Originally Posted by Helz

Please tell me your not talking about Jayland Walker. The guy that stole a car and shot at cops.

There is a really disgusting industry out there just dedicated to spreading misinformation about police. Sadly by the time people figure out they have been told some bullshit the riots have already happened and the 'oh we were wrong' is a squeak that does nothing to recover the damage done to police reputation.
I honestly do not think any other country in the world has such groups and individuals that go out of their way to profit from pushing a hateful rhetoric about police.

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You mean whilst they where driving there was something that might of sounded like a gunshot and a flashing light near the car?
Being shot 60 times is definetly a resonable amount of times then, would make more sense to use a grendade launcher next time though or possible an Uzi.

Tell the kids at the schools next time ther is a mass shooter, steel a car.

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Originally Posted by SuperJack

You mean whilst they where driving there was something that might of sounded like a gunshot and a flashing light near the car?
Being shot 60 times is definetly a resonable amount of times then, would make more sense to use a grendade launcher next time though or possible an Uzi.

Tell the kids at the schools next time ther is a mass shooter, steel a car.

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The amount of shots really doesn't mean much to me. Just look into Roy Benavidez who was shot 37 times, blown up by two grenades, stabbed with a bayonet and struck with a rifle butt all in one session but never stopped fighting. Life is not a video game or a movie where 1 shot drops a person.

Maybe I am just a skeptic but I see these stories all the time pushed in utter bad faith. Last one people went nuts over was Leonna Hale. 26 year old black woman who was pregnant and got shot 5 times. Those people that profit from spreading hate pushed for a long time that she was unarmed and gunned down. After a few days of riots the police released this photo grabbed from badge cam to calm people down.
Attachment 28689
Clearly shows she had a gun. What did those same outlets do? Kept stoking the hate arguing the image artifacting like her right ankle appearing to be invisible was proof they photo shopped the image to cover it up. I am not sure why anyone would believe cops would photo shop a gun into an image but then delete the girls ankle for giggles but they pushed that message well. 'Unarmed pregnant black woman gunned down by cops'

I am not going to say that 'I know the cops were justified.' But when I hear a guy was shot 60 times I expect there is more of a reason than 'being black in public.' Its easy to get all worked up on stuff out of context before any information is released but from the limited information available my understanding is that he shot at cops, stole a car and fled. He probably didn't have a gun on him when he was shot but that does not change the totality of the situation. Im certain footage will be released soon although it won't matter. The riots will have already happened even if their actions were justified and there will be those who will ignore any facts and just say 'American police system is fucked because those cops didn't go to jail.'

People are so critical of American police but they work in an environment of hostile criminals with guns. Thats not the case for Germany. Comparing the two is very unfair in my opinion. I do not know why its treated as such a shocking concept that police gun use is so much higher in a place where so many criminals have guns.

I mean if the solution to gun problems are more guns then lol.
Should this happen to anyone that is running away and might have a gun? Put so many bullets in them you can melt them down and build a cooker.

People are critical of police but they have to deal with all these guns, but lowing the amount of guns is impossible because America is America, so solution is allow more guns.

Wonder what happens then? Cops have to escalate, and the cycle continues.

I don't think the number of guns is an issue. Switzerland also has shittons of guns and you don't see these kind of weird attacks there lol
America is just... a very violent place, it seems. Why? That could be anybody's guess. It's not like there's more psychopaths in America, right?

At the very least, I really do not see why there would be more psychopaths there. Maybe they're just more visible or something

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Originally Posted by Oberon

I don't think the number of guns is an issue. Switzerland also has shittons of guns and you don't see these kind of weird attacks there lol
America is just... a very violent place, it seems. Why? That could be anybody's guess. It's not like there's more psychopaths in America, right?

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I'm sorry but you forget the only reason Switzerland has that many guns is because without them there would be no cheese exports.

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Originally Posted by Oberon

I don't think the number of guns is an issue. Switzerland also has shittons of guns and you don't see these kind of weird attacks there lol
America is just... a very violent place, it seems. Why? That could be anybody's guess. It's not like there's more psychopaths in America, right?

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Yeah, pretty much if you think about it, you could gimme a gun and I wouldn't start shooting up people. So the only conclusion is that something is wrong with Americans, not the guns.

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Originally Posted by SuperJack

I mean if the solution to gun problems are more guns then lol.
Should this happen to anyone that is running away and might have a gun? Put so many bullets in them you can melt them down and build a cooker.

People are critical of police but they have to deal with all these guns, but lowing the amount of guns is impossible because America is America, so solution is allow more guns.

Wonder what happens then? Cops have to escalate, and the cycle continues.

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I don't think more guns is a solution at all. But I also have no idea what would be a solution. A magic wand?

So I did watch the dashcam and bodycam footage for Jayland Walker. He certainly was armed and shot at cops.
Attachment 28693 Thats a real photo of his gun. He left in the the car when he ditched it.

The reason he got so shot up was that after stealing a car, leading cops on a high speed chase and shooting at them a LOT of cops responded. They chased him into a field where he did 3 really dumb things. Reached in his waistband, turned around to face the cops, and made a big forward motion with his arm after having shot at them earlier.
Attachment 28694
Its a little gritty but in the video you can clearly see that motion. Im not sure if this was a straight suicide by cop or if the guy accidently dropped his gun in the car with the adrenaline and was moving to shoot the cops but this shooting looks very justified to me. Maybe stealing cars and shooting at cops is more to blame for the guy ending up a piece of swiss cheese than the cops or their training in this one.

Its also interesting that the guy was dressed up like a cartoon burglar with a full face mask and gloves. No part of his skin was really visible and it happened in the dead of night but people will still make it a race thing. Expect more riots when the investigation comes back that the officers were justified. I do not see a victim here. I see a guy that made some very poor choices.

Imagine if neither of them had guns.

More than 220 shot and killed in U.S. gun violence over July 4 holiday weekend seems a lot.


Also wouldn't bear spray work better then arming everyone with guns?

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Originally Posted by SuperJack

More than 220 shot and killed in U.S. gun violence over July 4 holiday weekend seems a lot.

Also wouldn't bear spray work better then arming everyone with guns?

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The issue is that the guns do exist. There are more guns than people in America. If you were to prevent the access to more guns it does not solve the problem and it creates a world where criminals have guns but law abiding citizens have none. I totally agree with you but I just do not see it as a functional solution to the problem. To actually use this approach you either need a time machine to go back 100 years and stop the issue from getting so bad or a magic wand.

Its like having a conversation of
'Nukes are a bad thing'
'Ok, how do we solve this problem?'
'Just imagine they never existed'
or
'What if we prevent the responsible nations from having them'
While I do get the thinking and I see it as being functionally used to prevent the issue in other parts of the world I feel like talking about a method that prevented a problem from existing does nothing to suggest a way to solve a problem that does exist.

I don't think bear spray is a good option against a gun. A few weeks ago a guy got shot up across the street from a house party I was at. I did not engage the guy because he had a rifle and I only had a pistol. Even though I had a gun and probably am much better trained I was not comfortable taking on that fight because of the difference in our tools. If he did not have a rifle sure.. But that goes back to the magic wand solution of saying 'just imagine if there was no problem to begin with'

I mean, if there is a problem of too many guns then adding more won't solve it, and make the problem worse.

Just reduce the amount of criminals.

In your example, having a pistol was not the solution. And not having a pistol would leave you in the same situation.
For somebody less thoughtful and wise than you, having a pistol may of made the situation worse and ended with even more deaths.

What if we banned people instead of guns

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Originally Posted by Oberon

What if we banned people instead of guns

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Do it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperJack

I mean, if there is a problem of too many guns then adding more won't solve it, and make the problem worse.

Just reduce the amount of criminals.

In your example, having a pistol was not the solution. And not having a pistol would leave you in the same situation.
For somebody less thoughtful and wise than you, having a pistol may of made the situation worse and ended with even more deaths.

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Its not about solving it in the same way that putting a bandage on a cut does not prevent the cut from happening. Cut off the supply of guns and there are still more guns than people in America with a black market that smuggles truckloads of every other illegal thing into America.

California had an issue of people getting robbed going to the gun range for a while. They passed laws saying you had to keep ammo and guns separate and all that so criminals knew they could just wait until someone was walking into the gun range and rob them of their guns. When you prohibit law abiding citizens from defending themselves criminals take advantage and a 'greater good' argument is hard to justify when the solution is both unlikely to eliminate the supply of guns to criminals as well as likely taking multiple generations to impact the problem.

Reduction of criminals would be great. There is a big issue that current gun laws are not even prosecuted and America has turned its justice system into a revolving door focused on generating income for the prison industry and municipalities. I could ramble about my thoughts on how laws target certain groups and the legal system turns people to a life of crime more than it reforms them but thats a mess of a topic.

For my situation I am very glad I had a pistol. If that guy had decided he wanted no witnesses I would have been in a gun fight but I would have had a decent chance. If I did not me and my friends would probably have just gotten gunned down as we tried to run away with my best option being throwing myself at the guy so my friends had time to run.