Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
I've always wanted to post this, and with the 2.0 update this problem has been way more severe and is making the game unfair to new players.
People asking Street Racer claims about their car model should be considered cheating. People should not ask Oracles, Doctors and other roles for the message they receive during night sequences either.
Situation 1.
I'm an evil claiming SR, people ask me about the car model and I can't came up with an answer. What will most likely happen is that I will get lynched for being "fake SR".
Situation 2.
I'm a noob SR claiming SR, people ask me about the car model and I can't came up with an answer because I never drifted and didn't know about the car model's name. What will most likely happen is that I will get lynched for being "fake SR".
Situation 3.
I'm an evil claiming SR, people ask me about the car model and I chose a random one from my list of car models that may show up in game. Then there's a good chance I get innoed not because I'm real SR, but because people think I'm real SR.
Do you see the problem? If people are judging SR claims by whether they can give a correct car model name, what will ultimately happen is that experienced players will just collect a list of correct car models and that's about it. No mind games, no strategy, no counting, no psychology. And this puts new players at a disadvantage.
Oracles claims can have this problem too. If I'm a player who never played oracle once and is fake claiming oracle, I'm certainly not going to know the message Oracles receive upon divination. In fact, I was surprised that the verb "divine" is used to describe the action when I play oracle for the first time.
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Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
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Mafia is a game about deception, of course, but that doesn't mean one should lie about game mechanics and mislead new players to gain an advantage.
Suppose i'm in a game with a only 3 players, me the Mafioso, a Sheriff and a noob who's also town. I managed to get the sheriff on trial, and the sheriff says something like "n1 #5 ns, n2 #6 is Mafia", and then I proceeds to spam "LIES SHERIFF DETECTS CRIMES AND INVESTIGATORS DETECT ALIGNMENT, GUILTY THIS MAFIA SCUM". If the noob town believed me and lynched the sheriff claim, resulting in a mafia win, will I be proud of myself for being good at lying? No, I will be ashamed of myself.
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
I honestly agree only on the SR car thing. It doesn't help that the car list is full of things nobody has ever heard of, so you can't come up with a fake car on the spot.
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
It's been a rule since 2013 at the latest that forcing players to quote their role info verbatim is not allowed
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rumox
It's been a rule since 2013 at the latest that forcing players to quote their role info verbatim is not allowed
And this happens almost every game where there's a SR claim in the current meta, why don't I see anyone being punished for it?
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tauntshaman
And this happens almost every game where there's a SR claim in the current meta, why don't I see anyone being punished for it?
Have you reported anybody for it? I’ve reported a jailor for demanding my roleCard be read to them or ask what sound it made when I got my role. Generally the person didn’t consider that they were being unfair and immediately stops once they’re told.
But honestly you make a fair point - I wonder if
@Frinckles
considered this implication when he made the car types or if that was just supposed to be fun flavor.
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DJarJar
Have you reported anybody for it?
C'mon aamirus you know how things are done here, if you spot a crime in a report that's not being reported, you add the crime to the report, you can't just let it slip because nobody is reporting it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DJarJar
Generally the person didn’t consider that they were being unfair and immediately stops once they’re told.
NO, just come online and play a few games as SR, and try to tell them asking for car model is illegal on trial. Good luck on not getting lynched.
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Feel free to report people in the future
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tauntshaman
C'mon aamirus you know how things are done here, if you spot a crime in a report that's not being reported, you add the crime to the report, you can't just let it slip because nobody is reporting it.
NO, just come online and play a few games as SR, and try to tell them asking for car model is illegal on trial. Good luck on not getting lynched.
1) a reviewer is not going to catch EVERY crime in a game because they’re probably going at 8x speed and just focused on the reported issue. As you know from experience
2) feel free to cite some report threads where this issue happened…
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Oh boy, gonna be hard to enforce this one considering how common it is.
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Going to go a little bit against the grain on this one but... people claim the car model because it's fun flavor text.
No one tries to ask people what word oracle feedback uses, like is it "divine" or "foretell" or "read the bones" or whatever because who cares? No one tries to ask people what sound their role made at the start of the game because who cares? They're nice little pieces of flavor that make the game feel more alive - but ultimately they're forgettable pieces of flavor - that's it. They're details of the game that no one really pays attention to. And the few people that do are generally only paying attention to it to try to game it by catching liars - and those people pretty quickly find out that doing that is against the rules and so they stop after a report and all is good.
The flavor text for the street racer is different though... It's neat, it's fun - you see it and are like "hell ya, I'm driving my Mitsubishi Lancer" (idk if this is a car used in the game or not lol) and then you want to talk about it when you get put on the stand like "I couldn't have killed them, I was too busy driving my MITSUBISHI LANCER!" When I received Street Racer the first time, that's exactly what I did anyway - I'd completely forgotten about the rule - I'd never thought about claiming the flavor texts for other roles ever before, but with the street racer, the uniqueness and the specificity of that feedback just makes people WANT to hard claim the car they're driving.
I think viewing it as a problem with how people are playing the games (e.g "Claiming the car they're driving is against the rules!") is a little bit myopic because I believe that my reaction of wanting to talk about the car model is also most everyone's initial reaction too. Just making it against the rules is still going to have new players coming in and trying to claim their role by stating what car they're driving. Whereas that kind of claiming literally never happens with new players when it comes to claiming other flavor text/sounds.
I think viewing it as a problem with the role flavor is also anti-fun. I think having unique names for the different cars is neat, it adds to the experience.
The best solution is probably to just add a list of possible car models in the role's tooltip or something, and then stop worrying about it.
But that's just my 2 cents. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lag
Going to go a little bit against the grain on this one but... people claim the car model because it's fun flavor text.
No one tries to ask people what word oracle feedback uses, like is it "divine" or "foretell" or "read the bones" or whatever because who cares? No one tries to ask people what sound their role made at the start of the game because who cares? They're nice little pieces of flavor that make the game feel more alive - but ultimately they're forgettable pieces of flavor - that's it. They're details of the game that no one really pays attention to. And the few people that do are generally only paying attention to it to try to game it by catching liars - and those people pretty quickly find out that doing that is against the rules and so they stop after a report and all is good.
The flavor text for the street racer is different though... It's neat, it's fun - you see it and are like "hell ya, I'm driving my Mitsubishi Lancer" (idk if this is a car used in the game or not lol) and then you want to talk about it when you get put on the stand like "I couldn't have killed them, I was too busy driving my MITSUBISHI LANCER!" When I received Street Racer the first time, that's exactly what I did anyway - I'd completely forgotten about the rule - I'd never thought about claiming the flavor texts for other roles ever before, but with the street racer, the uniqueness and the specificity of that feedback just makes people WANT to hard claim the car they're driving.
I think viewing it as a problem with how people are playing the games (e.g "Claiming the car they're driving is against the rules!") is a little bit myopic because I believe that my reaction of wanting to talk about the car model is also most everyone's initial reaction too. Just making it against the rules is still going to have new players coming in and trying to claim their role by stating what car they're driving. Whereas that kind of claiming literally never happens with new players when it comes to claiming other flavor text/sounds.
I think viewing it as a problem with the role flavor is also anti-fun. I think having unique names for the different cars is neat, it adds to the experience.
The best solution is probably to just add a list of possible car models in the role's tooltip or something, and then stop worrying about it.
But that's just my 2 cents. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is exactly the solution. List of car models in the tooltip. Then it's left up to chance.
That said, it's a game of deception. To allow someone to report someone else for lying opens up an entire can of worms:
1. I'm an liaison, and claim escort. Lag cries "ESCORT ISNT POSSIBLE READ THE ROLE LIST". Now reportable
2. I'm a witch and claim enchantress. Tauntshaman tells people that "ENCHANTRESS CAN'T MAKE YOU VISIT SOMEONE ELSE ONLY THEMSELVES"
Asking SR for their car is attempting to prove a nearly unproveable role. There's nothing abusive about it. If someone wants to BS to get them lynched, it's literally the game.
Funny how TauntShaman, who has been SR at least 40-50 times that I've seen, only cries about that now that he got a griefing & reactionary gamethrowing report against him for his actions following this event.
Only when it's convenient for him, huh.
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lag
people claim the car model because it's fun flavor text.
No one tries to ask people what word oracle feedback uses, like is it "divine" or "foretell" or "read the bones" or whatever because who cares? No one tries to ask people what sound their role made at the start of the game because who cares?
No idea what you are talking about, Did you read my post thoroughly?
Are you interpreting my post as me being against people claiming their car model to increase the legitimacy of their claims? How many 2.0 games have you played?
People claim the car model not because it's fun, but because they are forced to. If they don't do so, they get lynched for "fake claiming" SR. And that is what I'm against.
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CaNNoN
That said, it's a game of deception. To allow someone to report someone else for lying opens up an entire can of worms:
1. I'm an liaison, and claim escort. Lag cries "ESCORT ISNT POSSIBLE READ THE ROLE LIST". Now reportable
If escort is possible(free slots in roles list that can fit in an escortg) and someone is trying to convince noobs escort is impossible, I'm not against it.
If escort is possible(expected count>0) and someone is trying to convince noobs escort is impossible(expected count=0), then it indeed should be reportable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CaNNoN
2. I'm a witch and claim enchantress. Tauntshaman tells people that "ENCHANTRESS CAN'T MAKE YOU VISIT SOMEONE ELSE ONLY THEMSELVES"
Which is correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CaNNoN
Asking SR for their car is attempting to prove a nearly unproveable role. There's nothing abusive about it. If someone wants to BS to get them lynched, it's literally the game.
And doctor is more unprovable than SR, yet more ppl fake claim doc than SR. Why? Because people like you ask SR for car model, while doctor roles don't have unique UI text.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CaNNoN
Funny how TauntShaman, who has been SR at least 40-50 times that I've seen, only cries about that now that he got a griefing & reactionary gamethrowing report against him for his actions following this event.
Only when it's convenient for him, huh.
lol "only cries about that now". I've always been against asking SR for car model. Just ask
@ChannelMiner
, I called it cheating when he did like a few months back. Also, how the hell was I griefing & reactionary gamethrowing? By calling you a cheater?
Re: Confirming a role by asking the UI text only the role will see should be considered cheating
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tauntshaman
If escort is possible(free slots in roles list that can fit in an escortg) and someone is trying to convince noobs escort is impossible, I'm not against it.
If escort is possible(expected count>0) and someone is trying to convince noobs escort is impossible(expected count=0), then it indeed should be reportable.
Which is correct?
And doctor is more unprovable than SR, yet more ppl fake claim doc than SR. Why? Because people like you ask SR for car model, while doctor roles don't have unique UI text.
lol "only cries about that now". I've always been against asking SR for car model. Just ask
@
ChannelMiner
, I called it cheating when he did like a few months back. Also, how the hell was I griefing & reactionary gamethrowing? By calling you a cheater?
It's simple. Then delete the SR car model. It exists as a confirmation method and nothing further.
Delete it, if not. Make them like doctor.
You reactionary gamethrew by leading a lynching against me next game. You made your name [Cheater] CaNNoN, and then spammed that I was a cheater, two people took that seriously and lynched me without literally any proof, solely because you called me a cheater.
I'll make it simple for you: Lying in a game of deception is not cheating. If people are too fucking stupid to read rolecards, then it's on them.
