/ fence-sitting / waffling / hedging / flailing /

What are the differences?

And are there other?

Fencesitting: not clearly picking a stance on your reads, often associated with fearing to place votes.

Waffling: Huh? :D I'd assume it's the same as fluffing (posting a lot of stuff that looks useful but that isn't)

Hedging and flailing are pretty similar, although flailing often has a "shit cases" dimension to it. Basically flip-flopping on multiple people, if I'm not mistaken. Those terms are pretty large, though, and are "buzzwords", so there's a reason you're unsure about their meaning.

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Fencesitting: not clearly picking a stance on your reads, often associated with fearing to place votes.

Waffling: Huh? :D I'd assume it's the same as fluffing (posting a lot of stuff that looks useful but that isn't)

Hedging and flailing are pretty similar, although flailing often has a "shit cases" dimension to it. Basically flip-flopping on multiple people, if I'm not mistaken. Those terms are pretty large, though, and are "buzzwords", so there's a reason you're unsure about their meaning.

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You forgot Flailing. The only word in the list that Google doesn't know and you have to check a FM Wiki.


Fun part about Waffling is that it's a normal English expression apparently, except it has completely different meaning in NA than in British.

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speak or write at length in a vague or trivial manner.

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fail to make up one's mind.

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Fence sitter is a normal English expression too apparently:

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a person who remains neutral or uncommitted on an issue.

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Hedging though, now that's technically a term for a "risk management strategy" and the fun part about that is that it's in neither Wiki. But in the above link it reads:

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When a player does not commit to a stance and stays on the fence regarding a topic, usually the alignment of a player.

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Apart from Flailing, the word that I don't understand even after reading about it.
The other 3 are all the exact same?

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

Hedging though, now that's technically a term for a "risk management strategy" and the fun part about that is that it's in neither Wiki.

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It may be related to how you can use hedges instead of fences on land, and therefore tangentially related to "fence sitting" as a term.

https://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...fidbJCUD-x-itw

Though I've never heard of a "hedge sitter" or "hedge sitting".

And don't ask me why we have so many words for preety much the same thing.

However Flailing is probably among the more specific of them where it likely refers to someone under pressue and they either concede things too quickly or give out a bunch of suggestions as if they're panicking.

Waffling might be a bit more specific if someone puts a significant amount of effort into trying to read someone only to come up with nothing, where as fence-sitting and hedging aren't related to level of effort I think.

I just remembered that @Helz had Flailing explained in his Guide.

What I find fascinating is that he, @Marshmallow Marshall and @MartinGG99 all gave slightly different answers regarding Flailing.
MM's is more similar to the one in the Wiki page.
Martin's is more similar to the one in Helz's Guide.

This leads me to believe that using the word Flailing is actually counter productive in an actual game? As in, It is better in every possible aspect to just say what you mean instead of relying that others would know what it is. Assuming you have the time, of course.
That would be the case for all such terms wouldn't it? Describing in detail just has more power to it than using some term.

I like Martin's explanation of Waffling. It combines the NA and the British meanings, both in one.

There's probably a consensus regarding fence-sitting here.

Hedging though. For MM hedging is synonym to his meaning of Flailing, while for Martin hedging is synonym for fence-sitting. What's worse, the word doesn't exist in Wiki pages.
Hedging bad word.

I support Martin’s definition of flailing. That is how I use it.

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Originally Posted by MartinGG99

It may be related to how you can use hedges instead of fences on land, and therefore tangentially related to "fence sitting" as a term.

https://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...fidbJCUD-x-itw

Though I've never heard of a "hedge sitter" or "hedge sitting".

And don't ask me why we have so many words for preety much the same thing.

However Flailing is probably among the more specific of them where it likely refers to someone under pressue and they either concede things too quickly or give out a bunch of suggestions as if they're panicking.

Waffling might be a bit more specific if someone puts a significant amount of effort into trying to read someone only to come up with nothing, where as fence-sitting and hedging aren't related to level of effort I think.

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Hedging might refer to the shape.

I also resonate with martin's definition of flailing. Seems like that's how ppl generally use the term, then.

tbh, this entire time I was reading waffling with the British meaning, so I must have been totally misinterpreting what American ppl meant when they used it LOL.

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Originally Posted by Grayswandir

Hedging might refer to the shape.

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Friend, sometimes you have really random thoughts in your head.

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Fencesitting: not clearly picking a stance on your reads, often associated with fearing to place votes.

Waffling: Huh? :D I'd assume it's the same as fluffing (posting a lot of stuff that looks useful but that isn't)

Hedging and flailing are pretty similar, although flailing often has a "shit cases" dimension to it. Basically flip-flopping on multiple people, if I'm not mistaken. Those terms are pretty large, though, and are "buzzwords", so there's a reason you're unsure about their meaning.

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yeah, a large part of the lexicon starts to feel very arbitrary and context-based after a while. Flipflopping can often be used interchangeably with flailing without ppl raising eyebrows, which can often be used interchangeably with fence-sitting without raising any eyebrows, which now apparently can often also be used interchangeably with waffling.

When scums do an ISO their commentary on every post is often just "[buzzword]? Or maybe even [buzzword]?" over and over and somehow get away with it because every town is assigning their own nuanced interpretation of what the scum meant LOL.

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Originally Posted by yzb25

yeah, a large part of the lexicon starts to feel very arbitrary and context-based after a while. Flipflopping can often be used interchangeably with flailing without ppl raising eyebrows, which can often be used interchangeably with fence-sitting without raising any eyebrows, which now apparently can often also be used interchangeably with waffling.

When scums do an ISO their commentary on every post is often just "[buzzword]? Or maybe even [buzzword]?" over and over and somehow get away with it because every town is assigning their own nuanced interpretation of what the scum meant LOL.

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sorry if this is broadening the intended topic too much, but I wanna mention that "buddying" is an extremely vague term that can be used for pretty much any friendly, positive or even decent interaction between two people. "pocketing" potentially includes literally every single usage of "buddying", yet somehow when someone says the latter it sounds like they're saying something more meaningful because they're also insinuating some kind of scum intent, when in practice they're objectively saying less. Isn't it so weird how your dumb, easily-manipulated town brain works? XD. Or maybe this only works on me, idk.

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Originally Posted by yzb25

When scums do an ISO their commentary on every post is often just "[buzzword]? Or maybe even [buzzword]?" over and over and somehow get away with it because every town is assigning their own nuanced interpretation of what the scum meant LOL.

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Ambiguity as a scum tactic :thinking:
Never thought of that.

Nobody can read you when you yourself can't read you. https://blog.101domain.com/wp-conten...t-thinking.jpg

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Originally Posted by yzb25

sorry if this is broadening the intended topic too much, but I wanna mention that "buddying" is an extremely vague term that can be used for pretty much any friendly, positive or even decent interaction between two people. "pocketing" potentially includes literally every single usage of "buddying", yet somehow when someone says the latter it sounds like they're saying something more meaningful because they're also insinuating some kind of scum intent, when in practice they're objectively saying less. Isn't it so weird how your dumb, easily-manipulated town brain works? XD. Or maybe this only works on me, idk.

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This is precisely the sort of thing I meant in the 2nd question in the OP. :blink1:

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

Friend, sometimes you have really random thoughts in your head.

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Lol, I saw Martin’s picture of a hedge and I immediately thought it was because the hedges there have a bifurcated ‘roof’, so maybe hedging meant to say something that could to go both ways.

Incidentally I went to the Wikipedia page, and there was a maze of hedges there, so maybe it’s from that instead. A statement that is like a maze of hedges so you don’t know which ‘way’ to take it. Or maybe I’m just overgeneralizing an example again. xD

When I heard waffling I just pictured someone making a waffle sandwich. And the scum would be the caught in between the two waffle pieces. So waffling would be to catch the scum. Rofl

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Originally Posted by yzb25

I also resonate with martin's definition of flailing. Seems like that's how ppl generally use the term, then.

tbh, this entire time I was reading waffling with the British meaning, so I must have been totally misinterpreting what American ppl meant when they used it LOL.

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Lol, imagine mislynching someone because of linguistic differences in semantics.

Hedging refers to building a hedge around oneself, by using expressions of uncertainty, allowing one to back away of a statement when necessary.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedge_(linguistics)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...stic-hedges-do

It's more about the choice of words in regards to one single opinion, while fence-sitting is about being on the fence between multiple stances.

Flailing = Flip-flopping I think. Changing opinions quickly, acting irrationally, giving in quickly under pressure
Dunno about waffling, but it does sound like hedging

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

I just remembered that @Helz had Flailing explained in his Guide.

What I find fascinating is that he, @Marshmallow Marshall and @MartinGG99 all gave slightly different answers regarding Flailing.
MM's is more similar to the one in the Wiki page.
Martin's is more similar to the one in Helz's Guide.

This leads me to believe that using the word Flailing is actually counter productive in an actual game? As in, It is better in every possible aspect to just say what you mean instead of relying that others would know what it is. Assuming you have the time, of course.
That would be the case for all such terms wouldn't it? Describing in detail just has more power to it than using some term.

I like Martin's explanation of Waffling. It combines the NA and the British meanings, both in one.

There's probably a consensus regarding fence-sitting here.

Hedging though. For MM hedging is synonym to his meaning of Flailing, while for Martin hedging is synonym for fence-sitting. What's worse, the word doesn't exist in Wiki pages.
Hedging bad word.

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Correct, using "flailing" and especially "hedging" has always resulted in people asking "what do you mean" in my experience, when people weren't just ignoring the sentence that contained the word. As for "waffling", I've never really seen it used in a meaningful way. Fencesitting is common and good to use though.

Also, when I see people accused of "flailing", they usually flip town... does anyone have a similar or different experience to share?

I feel like hedging and flailing are different

I look at flailing as a player constantly shifting what they are saying to justify a thought process they never had while I look at hedging as an informed scum knowing the misslynch he is pushing will flip town and lays the ground work for that flip by ‘hedging’ his read. The typical ‘I scum read him so let’s lynch but he could totally be town’ type of thing.

Fence sitting allows a scum to avoid taking a hard position while stalling to see how the town moves and works great to set yourself up as a kingmaker play. I feel like it’s name is self explanatory

This is an interesting thread. It’s cool to see how different people interpret the same terms in different ways

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

As for "waffling", I've never really seen it used in a meaningful way. Fencesitting is common and good to use though.

Also, when I see people accused of "flailing", they usually flip town... does anyone have a similar or different experience to share?

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I have no clue what waffling is suppose to mean in Mafia. In sky diving it refers to being too rigid with your body causing you to rock back and forth in accelerated free fall so maybe some connection there?

I have seen quite a bit of flailing tell mysslynches although I think that’s more from the tell being used wrong than it being ineffective

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Originally Posted by Helz

I feel like hedging and flailing are different

I look at flailing as a player constantly shifting what they are saying to justify a thought process they never had while I look at hedging as an informed scum knowing the misslynch he is pushing will flip town and lays the ground work for that flip by ‘hedging’ his read. The typical ‘I scum read him so let’s lynch but he could totally be town’ type of thing.

Fence sitting allows a scum to avoid taking a hard position while stalling to see how the town moves and works great to set yourself up as a kingmaker play. I feel like it’s name is self explanatory

This is an interesting thread. It’s cool to see how different people interpret the same terms in different ways

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Huh. When I've seen it used, people were using it as "flip-flopping with weak cases against multiple people". Granted I've mostly heard that on Mafiascum, so it may not be the standard use elsewhere; your definition is apparently more accurate than mine here, since people here use it that way.

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Originally Posted by Helz

I have no clue what waffling is suppose to mean in Mafia. In sky diving it refers to being too rigid with your body causing you to rock back and forth in accelerated free fall so maybe some connection there?

I have seen quite a bit of flailing tell mysslynches although I think that’s more from the tell being used wrong than it being ineffective

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Perhaps. Meta is often misused too, and it doesn't mean it is to be completely disregarded. That being said, I wouldn't hold it in high regard.