Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Through the last several months, many players, myself included, have had mixed experiences with -Mafia 2.0-. I have embarked on a quest to see where these experiences diverge. What is working? What isn't working? What needs desperate attention? I've compiled lots of information and data over the past couple weeks from arcade players and held several long-winded conversations over Discord about the current state of the game.
Here is my interpretation of the SC2 Mafia 'meta' and how its evolved/morphed to fit the new dynamic of -Mafia 2.0- .
[ META ] - (Most Effective Tactic/s Available) is a term used to describe the most effective method of achieving victory in a game or setting. In the case of -Mafia-, the 'meta' is both the standard 8331 or 933 setup as well as how players navigate this setup with their own intuition and strategies.
It's worth noting that every game in -Mafia- is different. Sometimes the meta is in play, sometimes its not. Many people refer to the meta as "game within a game" because of the strategies that develop back and forth between players. Essentially, its a strategic and logistical "Mind Game" that never stops shifting in strategy.
First and foremost, Starcraft 2 itself is outdated. Very few new players are actively joining the Arcade, and I think everyone knows this. There isn't really a solution to this, SC2 has been neglected by Blizzard Admins for a few years now, and auto-bot moderation has taken over any sort of moderation that was going on. The best thing i can think of for -Mafia- community to survive LONG TERM is porting ourselves as a F2P game on Steam. Not only a logistical challenge, but we as the -Mafia- community enjoy a certain aspect of liberty and freedom of speech in our games. If we were to be assimilated into the corporate Hiveminds of Steam, Origin, etc., we would lose a lot of that autonomy that we enjoy.
With the deterioration of the Arcade, the player base is becoming more rigid, and people who enjoy the Arcade are actually branching out to other games. So, while the Arcade and SC2 itself are on the proverbial clock, -Mafia- has actually seen an increase in player count. And I don't mean old players coming back from hiatus, I mean old arcade veterans who've decided to branch out to see if -Mafia- is worth their time. This is where I will target most of my research, taking the point of view of older arcade veterans as they learn and struggle to grasp the intricate chat-based gameplay.
To start, 2.0 has 15 new roles to play with. At surface level, this is great. New roles are almost ALWAYS appreciated. I cannot describe how excited i was to see our players genuinely happy and ecstatic to try out the new roles. This is both good and bad. New evil roles and new neutral roles are fine, because of the way Standard 933/8331 setups are arranged, having a singular neutral evil that could potentially be 1 out of the 5 evil roles doesn't affect the game. The problems start to arise with the new Town roles. In a game of Mafia, typically every person counts. Whether they are totally AFK, screeching obscenities in day chat, or just generally being stupid, Every Single Townie plays a vital and important role in the maintenance and survival of the rest of the town. Think of it this way;
If a save contains two Protective slots, these slots can be filled with (Doctor, Bodyguard, Armorsmith). Each of these roles serves a vital role and has the potential to completely flop a game in one way or another. A Bodyguard is an invaluable asset to the Town Government.
Spinning the pendulum, if a role list contains two Support slots, these slots can be filled with (Party Host, Escort, Oracle, Street Racer). The problem here, is that some of these roles "outperform" the others.
Party Host in general is seen with loads of distaste in the -Mafia- community, simply because it's mechanics just aren't helpful to the town as a whole. Hosting parties is a good way to keep dialogue between townies going, especially when there is a government role. Party Host has very little practical applications. The best way i've been Party Host used is by hosting parties to confirm themselves. While i think the Party Host is a flavorful role, i don't think it has any business being in a traditional 8331 or 933 setups. A maximum of two parties means on average a party is hosted N1 78.2% of the time. This means on average a party host will have 1-2 parties left to play around with in a given setup. Assuming they don't die, the odds of a Party Host attempting to userp the position of a dead Government, are 0%. Especially if there are other townies who outclass the Party Host in terms of raw strength, like a Veteran or Vigilante.
Tying into the dislike of Party Host, the number of Town roles has increased by 6. This affects the 'Role Pool' significantly, it means every role has a less % chance to spawn on average. This means that the number of town roles that don't spawn increases. Some roles are present every game, and that's important for the stability of the meta. The -Mafia- meta has undergone some changes since I started playing, generally there was a shift from 933 to 8331 because of the extra diversity and freedom the "Any Random" slot allowed in terms of both assigning roles to the town, and evil roles capability to forge claims. The addition of new roles, while positively welcome, has overall had a detrimental effect on the stability of the meta thanks to there being too much diversity on the side of the Town. The new roles are great, and they each are fun to play, but they don't Synergize very well together.
The Oracle, one of the magical support roles, does absolutely NOTHING 'support' related. Comparing Oracle to Street Racer is like comparing Investigator to Bus Driver. Each of the Support roles does something specific, like the Escort, or the Street Racer, that usually involve some type of manipulation not found in any other role. The Oracle serves more in line with Investigative roles, except its WORSE because the Oracle needs to die in order to actually be of any use. I would argue that a mechanic that requires a player to die in order to work isn't very fun to play around with.
I haven't even started on the Triad/Mafia side of the argument. Because of the 3 players on the Triad/Mafia team, this 'role pool dilution' is even more extreme. It is absolutely imperative that the Mafia/Triad have roles in their roster that can stay active and stay alive even if one of them drops off. Each team got both 2 unique roles, and 2 roles that are available to each other team. Double Flower, 49er, Soldato, and arguably Caporegime each have mechanics and abilities that keep the Triad and Mafia actively participating in the game.
(Caporegime has unfortunately suffered from the problem above. He takes up a very valuable slot as the third mafia member, and he sucks in the sense that swapping other mafia's roles is such a niche ability, it rarely ever plays out in favor of the Mafia.)
Swinger/Heartbreaker, and Actress/Diva, on the other hand, seem to have 'flopped' in terms of playability. Actress/Diva are very good roles mechanically wise. Interacting with the graveyard is something few roles possess, and for good reason. A single dead Actress/Diva can mislead and misdirect the town simply by existing as a dead entity in the graveyard. It's a great mechanic, but the veteran -Mafia- players wizened up to these Actress/Diva situations, so i think Actress and Diva are in a good spots mechanically and logistically.
Swinger, Heartbreaker, and Lover are not in good positions in the current meta. Lover, as I have explained before, is bad. Very bad. The problem with Lover lies in its ability. The Lover MUST fall in love with another player. If the Lover does not pick a target N1, they will suicide. And that's the "Lover" experience. If you were AFK while the game started and missed n1, sorry bro, no game for you. If you got redirected, manipulated, or otherwise, sorry bro, no game for you.
Falling in Love also presents its own problem. You tie your hitbox to another player. You essentially make any player that is alive in the game and double the chance for him to die at night. If you die, the other will die, and vice versa. While it's a good idea on paper, and even better considering it mirrors an already existing role, Executioner, in practice it's just the absolute WORST role you can get assigned. And i feel partially responsible for that since I threw the idea out there in the first place.
If you are a Lover, and you end up falling in love with a Veteran, you just killed 2 people.
Now imagine you pick another player, let's say you land on the Arsonist. Sure, the Arsonist is now disillusioned to dousing you, but now you've essentially nullified the Immunity a killing role possessed. If you fall in love with a role which has night immunity, you just stripped them of their night immunity.
The best way for a Lover to play the game, right now, is to just afk and not love anyone n1. This way, you're eliminating yourself from the game without taking anyone with you, and you're allowing the town to cross off the potential Benign role.
It's also worth mentioning that Heartbreaker and Swinger suffer from this problem too, they don't really do anything in the games they exist in. It's actually the meta right now to completely AFK and focus on fabricating a good fake role claim rather than use your ability as Swinger/HeartBreaker, because the role is just so underwhelming and underpowered, its best to just not interact with it at all.
Poisoner and Electromancer are fun roles to play with, but in the setting of 8331/933, Poisoner and Electromancer DO NOT have the ability to win games by themselves in ways that SK/Arso/MM usually do, and this is because of the lack of immunity. As frinkies has stated, giving those roles immunity might actually make them too strong for the town to handle, which is understandable thanks to the Poisoners similarity to 'dousing' and nigh-unblockable kill.
Overall, I believe that our development team should slow down with production/implementation of new roles and focus on ironing/polishing the roles that already exist. Adding new roles tips the fragile balance of power that currently exists in -Mafia-. If players feel like their role isn't fun, they stop playing, or just don't participate like they normally would, and this dampens overall playability and game progression.
Thank you for reading/skimming over this report. I love -Mafia- and its community, and that's why I want what's best for the new roles that are added/removed/changed, this game will always be close to my heart, and if possible, I will keep this games heart beating for as long as it will allow.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
x1000.
You have far more patience than me Guy.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guy
First and foremost, Starcraft 2 itself is outdated. Very few new players are actively joining the Arcade, and I think everyone knows this. There isn't really a solution to this, SC2 has been neglected by Blizzard Admins for a few years now, and auto-bot moderation has taken over any sort of moderation that was going on. The best thing i can think of for -Mafia- community to survive LONG TERM is porting ourselves as a F2P game on Steam. Not only a logistical challenge, but we as the -Mafia- community enjoy a certain aspect of liberty and freedom of speech in our games. If we were to be assimilated into the corporate Hiveminds of Steam, Origin, etc., we would lose a lot of that autonomy that we enjoy.
This I absolutely agree with. Funny thing, I was introduced to Town of Salem by my friends back in late 2014 - early 2015. Back then it was very much in Beta. When I was snooping around its item shop, I saw "DarkRevenant" skin, and wondering if that was a YouTuber, found out he made the game that inspired Town of Salem: SC2 Mafia. Since I was also getting into Starcraft at the same time, I decided to give it a try. Even back in 2015, lobby wait times were long, and they were definitely a LOT more restrictive with saves despite the greater degree of freedom you had for save-making. In 2015 ToS, "rainbow" saves and 15 Any saves were the norm in custom lobbies which everyone loved. When I tried to host a rainbow save in 2015 SC2Mafia, I got leavetrained.
Now, Town of Salem has grown into a much larger game, has taken a much more different direction from SC2Mafia, adding some microtransactions, and made it as family-friendly as possible. You could still speak literal hate speech back in 2015 Town of Salem without any repercussions, but that's certainly not the case in modern ToS. Despite all the new additions to ToS I think I still prefer SC2Mafia but that's probably b/c I have played SC2Mafia for so long with a lot of familiar names while I barely tried to re-enter ToS b/c the "false similarities" btwn ToS and SC2Mafia have become too jarring on top of the world of mechanical differences and mindsets btwn playerbases.
I think if we tried to do a seperate Mafia game on Steam, we would be safe from the decay of SC2, but we would need to go full politically-correct (which I am sure like the majority of SC2Mafia community will protest) in order to compete with Town of Salem for the favor of YouTubers and megacorps. But honestly, I think most of us wouldn't mind if the game just exists under the radar in a state of "more open to noobs than inside SC2 while not trying to sell out our beliefs for fame". And considering that SC2Mafia is previously free, a high enough paywall would piss off many people. Although I would be willing to pay 5-10$ to play our standalone Mafia game if the majority of the community follows long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guy
Party Host in general is seen with loads of distaste in the -Mafia- community, simply because it's mechanics just aren't helpful to the town as a whole. Hosting parties is a good way to keep dialogue between townies going, especially when there is a government role. Party Host has very little practical applications. The best way i've been Party Host used is by hosting parties to confirm themselves. While i think the Party Host is a flavorful role, i don't think it has any business being in a traditional 8331 or 933 setups. A maximum of two parties means on average a party is hosted N1 78.2% of the time. This means on average a party host will have 1-2 parties left to play around with in a given setup. Assuming they don't die, the odds of a Party Host attempting to userp the position of a dead Government, are 0%. Especially if there are other townies who outclass the Party Host in terms of raw strength, like a Veteran or Vigilante.
Party Host is pretty good at shutting down evil night chats. He shuts down Judge, he shuts down Mafia/Triad chat, he shuts down Cult chat.
That atleast puts a stop to them coordinating, and if evils were able to say something to their compadres at the first second of the night only to be caught saying something incriminating in front of the town, that is even better...
Which is why its better for PH to party mid-game. But the players have not realized that yet, and blow off their load on N1 when evils have now adjusted to the possibility of N1 Party, and when mafia/cult/triad dont coordinate as much on N1 as they do later on.
But as you said, the meta will adjust for that soon enough. I don't recall seeing distaste for Party Host as a role. I just think most people can play it better, and I can and I will. Hope you learn from the example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guy
Tying into the dislike of Party Host, the number of Town roles has increased by 6. This affects the 'Role Pool' significantly, it means every role has a less % chance to spawn on average. This means that the number of town roles that don't spawn increases. Some roles are present every game, and that's important for the stability of the meta. The -Mafia- meta has undergone some changes since I started playing, generally there was a shift from 933 to 8331 because of the extra diversity and freedom the "Any Random" slot allowed in terms of both assigning roles to the town, and evil roles capability to forge claims. The addition of new roles, while positively welcome, has overall had a detrimental effect on the stability of the meta thanks to there being too much diversity on the side of the Town. The new roles are great, and they each are fun to play, but they don't Synergize very well together.
One, I think I influenced a lot of the shift because in a time where 933 was dominant, I hosted 8331. The funny thing about my 8331 that draws a lot of people's ire is that my Any Random allows for a fourth member of the dominant gang to show up. And later on it allowed a lone member of the rival gang to show up. At first, my 8331 was a Triad save, and my Any Random started out as allowing Town/Neut/Triad with no killers or Mafia. But then as I realized the potential of lone mafia as a way to introduce more diversity into a save, I started having my Any Random include basically anything under the sun (except cult,SK,MM,arso due to them being individually very powerful and too destabilizing for my admittedly intentionally-chaotic save). And then when I learned that Triad will always win a Mafia vs Triad tie, I swapped the factions: now the Mafia is the dominant gang and the lone rival is Triad, which is definitely a huge change for my save that more or less stayed the same aside from minor changes since 2016 or so. Yes my 8331 is older than the 8331 meta itself.
Which is why I genuinely think that anyone who basically makes their Any Randoms Town/Neutral no killers without adjusting neutral weight are basically meta-following NPCs. Lone Triad in a 8331 is a still very novel concept that I think I only got correct so far, adding in the fun triad roles without the ability to turn to enforcer to have them play as Neutral Evils that can not under any circumstance let Mafia win in lategame. There's a lot of potential for interesting games there (probably helped that I did play a lone Interrogator in a Mafia 8331 once and almost won) but people complain about it and it rarely shows up anyways.
That is the eternal problem with SC2Mafia. The community doesn't like to experiment, and if the meta does shift than it tries to stay as close to the previous status quo as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guy
The Oracle, one of the magical support roles, does absolutely NOTHING 'support' related. Comparing Oracle to Street Racer is like comparing Investigator to Bus Driver. Each of the Support roles does something specific, like the Escort, or the Street Racer, that usually involve some type of manipulation not found in any other role. The Oracle serves more in line with Investigative roles, except its WORSE because the Oracle needs to die in order to actually be of any use. I would argue that a mechanic that requires a player to die in order to work isn't very fun to play around with.
Street Racer is a fucking trash role. It's infinitely more useless than Oracle. Investigators (unless the save somehow allows Exact Role Detect + makes GF/DH not detect immune) can't find GF/DH but Oracles can with a bit of intuition for the actual finding part and a bit of manipulation of others or plain luck for the revealing part. Street Racer does nothing except prevent 1 or 2 Mafia/NK kills by sheer fucking luck and manipulation that looks similar to vetbait, and the town rewards street racer claims with just plain lynching b/c its an easy cop-out for evils AND useless for town. It's no wonder I make Street Racer fucking 0% in every single one of my saves. Hell I would probably rolequit it if I ever got it.
"A mechanic that requires a player to die isn't fun", go tell that to the Bodyguard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guy
(Caporegime has unfortunately suffered from the problem above. He takes up a very valuable slot as the third mafia member, and he sucks in the sense that swapping other mafia's roles is such a niche ability, it rarely ever plays out in favor of the Mafia.)
Eh. I haven't experienced Caporegime enough times to make remarks on it other than the fact that I have to exclude it in my Gang War saves (8-2-2-2-1) since my Any Rand excludes Mafia/Triad (whatever gang earns the 3rd member gains a unfairly huge advantage, even more so than 4 triad/mafia in a 8331), making Caporegime a waste of space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guy
COLOR="#ADD8E6"]Swinger[/COLOR], Heartbreaker, and Lover are not in good positions in the current meta. Lover, as I have explained before, is bad. Very bad. The problem with Lover lies in its ability. The Lover MUST fall in love with another player. If the Lover does not pick a target N1, they will suicide. And that's the "Lover" experience. If you were AFK while the game started and missed n1, sorry bro, no game for you. If you got redirected, manipulated, or otherwise, sorry bro, no game for you.
Falling in Love also presents its own problem. You tie your hitbox to another player. You essentially make any player that is alive in the game and double the chance for him to die at night. If you die, the other will die, and vice versa. While it's a good idea on paper, and even better considering it mirrors an already existing role, Executioner, in practice it's just the absolute WORST role you can get assigned. And i feel partially responsible for that since I threw the idea out there in the first place.
If you are a Lover, and you end up falling in love with a Veteran, you just killed 2 people.
Now imagine you pick another player, let's say you land on the Arsonist. Sure, the Arsonist is now disillusioned to dousing you, but now you've essentially nullified the Immunity a killing role possessed. If you fall in love with a role which has night immunity, you just stripped them of their night immunity.
The best way for a Lover to play the game, right now, is to just afk and not love anyone n1. This way, you're eliminating yourself from the game without taking anyone with you, and you're allowing the town to cross off the potential Benign role.
It's also worth mentioning that Heartbreaker and Swinger suffer from this problem too, they don't really do anything in the games they exist in. It's actually the meta right now to completely AFK and focus on fabricating a good fake role claim rather than use your ability as Swinger/HeartBreaker, because the role is just so underwhelming and underpowered, its best to just not interact with it at all.
When I first came back and saw Lover, HBer, and Swinger, the first two things I suggested are as such:
- Give Lover, HBer, and Swinger until like N3 to be able to decide on who to love. That gives them much more agency as they can figure out much better whos surviving and whos not, whos evil and whos town gov, and side accordingly for maximum extortion.
- Do not notify HBer/Swinger's victim that they have been loved. Otherwise the victim would start yapping about HBer/Swinger and put them on borrowed time.
Alternatively Lover should be able to wait as long as they want to Love someone, but if they haven't Loved anyone by the end of the game they lose.
If those 2 or 3 suggestions were added, those roles would suddenly be a lot more fun to play and I wouldn't feel compelled to remove them from my saves constantly. But as I mentioned earlier, the SC2Mafia community is very conservative about mechanics, and they also have some horrendously shit takes about mechanics, so alas the devs refuse to fix Swinger/HBer/Lover b/c their beliefs say otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guy
Poisoner and Electromancer are fun roles to play with, but in the setting of 8331/933, Poisoner and Electromancer DO NOT have the ability to win games by themselves in ways that SK/Arso/MM usually do, and this is because of the lack of immunity. As frinkies has stated, giving those roles immunity might actually make them too strong for the town to handle, which is understandable thanks to the Poisoners similarity to 'dousing' and nigh-unblockable kill.
If Poisoner got lucky and dodged all the "killed by mafia/triad n1" fates that seem to happen so often to Poisoner, than they could be pretty powerful. But they almost never get to that step. Unfortunately the vast majority of people don't want Night Immunity for Poisoner but refuse to elaborate on any alternative mechanic to improve Poisoner's defense. His lack of defense alone already makes Poisoner a much weaker NK than SK/Arso/MM despite his offense being very strong. At one point I excluded Poisoner from the NK slot and only allowed him to spawn from Any Rands with a very low chance. Actually in my Gang Wars save which has no NK slot and never intends to have SK/Arso/MM I still allow Poisoner to have a very small chance of slipping through the cracks via Any Rand.
Electromaniac is just sad. A single electromaniac is the most ineffective NK ever. I thought Poisoner was weak, but you just have to feel pity for the lone Electromaniac. Maybe giving him two targets instead of one per night like with Witch would help a lot as it gives him second chances should his targets keep dying and lets him cover more of the lobby up. rn in a game completely favourable to him, 1-target lone electro can only get 1 or 2 pairs of people killed, but give him 2 targets a night and he would become way more of a menace.
The 3-electro save in Chaos Mode is actually pretty fun and is where Electromaniac really gets to shine, although its hard for the 3 Electros to really communicate beyond as-cryptic-as-possible deathnotes. Oh wait I'm not sure Electro and Poisoner even have access to -dn. Last time I checked it didn't seem like they did.
I am glad you made this effortpost, Guy.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
I've been really busy IRL lately but I'm trying to monitor what changes need to be made in a larger upcoming patch. I have already scaled back the addition of more roles and am aware of certain bugs related to save slots. Hoping I can have them fixed soon.
I disagree with how Oracle feels. Yeah, it's ability is only active after death but confirmability is extremely powerful. Not only that, but if you consider the Mafia/Triad perspective it's almost always a preferable target to avoid. There are doctors who go an entire game without saving a target only to get lynched on the final day. That's just the nature of the game.
Party Host feels fine to me. And I'd echo what Grak said above. You pointed out most Phosts use it on the first night which in itself has value. At that point everyone in the game knows the role exists. If anything I'd consider removing the option for a second party because the ability is very strong. It also helps put an emphasis on what players are talking/baiting or just playing the game without the duress of needing to cast a vote. It's ability is strong but as you point out, not as confirmable as vig or veteran -- that's one reason it was not put as a town gov.
I intend to remove the vehicles from Street Racer next patch. It's unfortunate because I worked hard on making it a flavorful role that's a bit different each time but it opened up doors for abuse. Functionally I still think it's fine.
Capo was designed for a 4 Mafia team initially but I can see why he might need a buff in a 3 Mafia team. Personally I use a Mafioso instead of a GF so he can use his ability on the Mafioso and have a 2/3 chance to do it again if he isn't swapped to Mafioso.
I was rather surprised you didn't comment on 49er as much.
I'm not sure I get the whole argument that Swinger/HB aren't useful. I suppose I play them differently. I'll think about giving the 3 roles (including lover) a bit more flexibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brendan
I definitely don't play the mod enough to be familiar with the meta - but would adding an option for poisoner having a one time use vest be a solution to his lack of defense without making them too oppressive?
I can't speak to any of the other problems mentioned as like I said - I don't actively play the mod. Just an outside perspective after reading.
The one-shot vest effects were previous implemented on Spy and Witch and removed for different reasons. Now that you mention it though, I think it could work decently well on poisoner. There's a few different ways to do it:
-one shot NI
-one shot NI vs the first attack (so multiple attackers always kill)
-one vest, usable at any time
Theme takes a back seat to mechanics but I'd also re-write the role to account for why the Poisoner would have such an immunity. If it works out, I'd be willing to consider similar changes to Electromaniac.
Good write up overall.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Also you probably don't want Electromaniac charging two players at once because the kill count would get out of control very quickly. He would need serious restrictions on that.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
I think Frink has done a fine job so far. 2.0 was an update we needed, and given the budget I think it was rolled on schedule and with updates as quickly as possible.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frinckles
I'm not sure I get the whole argument that Swinger/HB aren't useful. I suppose I play them differently. I'll think about giving the 3 roles (including lover) a bit more flexibility.
Please remove the damn roles. They are not fun, not useful, and never should have been added. I don't think you have played the mod enough AS THESE ROLES.
Lover has no protection and quickly becomes number 1 target.
Swinger and HB are locked into a SINGLE claim.
Where is the deception, where is the strategy? You choose people randomly n1. Mind as well blow your retirement at the casino.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
And again, the ability to BE night immune is far superior to the ability to KILL night immune. Not addressed, won't be changed because of Frinckles new philosophy on player agency and night immunity.
The problem is, there are still plenty of roles and years of save meta built around NK having night immunity. Poisoner and Electro have NO MEANINGFUL GAME IMPACTING ADVANTAGE over SK, MM, and Arson.
They make Arson look OP.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
The only thing I'll say about electromaniac is that it is very difficult to achieve the shock value, pun intended, of the electromaniac role with only 1 electromaniac. There needs to be at least 2 running around charging people to have a noticeable effect on town and the other factions.
Poisoner is okay, I have seen poisoner derail so many games that were objectively heading toward one faction winning by day 6 and then suddenly the poisoner's impact on the game hit and you have 3 mafia reduced to 1 in the span of a day if you include other risk factors like lynching or the NK running around.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drizzt
The only thing I'll say about electromaniac is that it is very difficult to achieve the shock value, pun intended, of the electromaniac role with only 1 electromaniac. There needs to be at least 2 running around charging people to have a noticeable effect on town and the other factions.
Ooor you can give Electro 2 targets a night so that he can still fit in a 8331/933 AND be more powerful. Damn the consequences, I prefer OP roles over roles where you are 90% likely to fail or be meaningless/useless due to the innate weakness of your role.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Renegade
They make Arson look OP.
I never understood why people think Arson is "underpowered". Sure it has the same flaw as Electromaniac where a series of unfortunate and unlucky events can result in all your targets prematurely dying, but the payoff is way more immense and satisifying, and can deliver an easy win in late game, provided that none of your victims figured out who you are and visits you...
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
I think doctor should be able to heal 2-3 people per night. it's kinda under powered tbh.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Voss
I think doctor should be able to heal 2-3 people per night. it's kinda under powered tbh.
Yes mock all of the legitimate feedback in this post, feedback that is already being discounted and ignored despite massive community outcry.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Renegade
Yes mock all of the legitimate feedback in this post, feedback that is already being discounted and ignored despite massive community outcry.
It's insulting that you think my legitimate suggestion is mocking. Why can't I say:
I prefer OP Doctor over UP doctor where you are 90% likely to fail or be meaningless/useless due to the innate weakness of Doctor.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Voss
It's insulting that you think my legitimate suggestion is mocking. Why can't I say:
I prefer OP Doctor over UP doctor where you are 90% likely to fail or be meaningless/useless due to the innate weakness of Doctor.
Condescending and unhelpful mockery aside, Doctor is supposed to team up with like 8 other people atleast, and when the town does form a "core" the Doctor becomes useful.
In regards to neutral killers, they usually are a loner. Maybe in a good game they might find one or two other neutrals to ally. Neutral killing roles (or neutral roles in general really aside from cult) should be able to fun to play by yourself. Mafia+triad roles should work within the framework of an informed minority. Town roles should work within the framework of an uninformed majority. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Voss
It's insulting that you think my legitimate suggestion is mocking. Why can't I say:
I prefer OP Doctor over UP doctor where you are 90% likely to fail or be meaningless/useless due to the innate weakness of Doctor.
No one has ever accused doctor of being underpowered. It is just that it is a relatively 'boring' role. The ability to save someone from death each night is extremely valuable, especially with the new gov roles.
Your suggestion comes across as sarcastic and not related to anything in Guy's lengthy detailed post above.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Renegade
No one has ever accused doctor of being underpowered. It is just that it is a relatively 'boring' role. The ability to save someone from death each night is extremely valuable, especially with the new gov roles.
Your suggestion comes across as sarcastic and not related to anything in Guy's lengthy detailed post above.
Your post came across as special pleading; the doctor's ability to contribute towards the game has significantly become less useful with the introduction of more 2.0 roles that can kill at night.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eight
Your post came across as special pleading; the doctor's ability to contribute towards the game has significantly become less useful with the introduction of more 2.0 roles that can kill at night.
Hmmm... shouldn't it be the opposite, though? If more people kill, more people can be healed, and thus doctors become even stronger.
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
A new patch will be out on Friday night to address some of the concerns listed in this thread. One issue that's kind of standing out to me is the dilution if Any Random but that honestly just seems Iike an issue that will resolve itself once more non-town roles are added.
The most needed roles (and also the most difficult to design) have always been NE and NB. I'll be looking into options to expand those two categories in the future.
You all know I dont like power creep and I'm not gonna spill the beans on what's coming up but it should hopefully make some newer and older roles more competitive with their peers.
In the meanwhile, keep shooting ideas. I'm lurkin
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frinckles
In the meanwhile, keep shooting ideas. I'm lurkin
Heartbreaker/Swinger being forced into a "borrowed time" situation regarding what they can claim once their victim yells about them is unfun
Re: Meta Definition // Highlights // State of the Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frinckles
A new patch will be out on Friday night to address some of the concerns listed in this thread. One issue that's kind of standing out to me is the dilution if Any Random but that honestly just seems Iike an issue that will resolve itself once more non-town roles are added.
The most needed roles (and also the most difficult to design) have always been NE and NB. I'll be looking into options to expand those two categories in the future.
You all know I dont like power creep and I'm not gonna spill the beans on what's coming up but it should hopefully make some newer and older roles more competitive with their peers.
In the meanwhile, keep shooting ideas. I'm lurkin
Option for Heartbreaker/Swinger to choose not to have a notification feedback onto their targets being loved would be lovely. This would remove any pigeonholing and give them more breathing room.
