Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ganelon
Would you say we should all get divorces then?
I know what you’ll say, that I demonized the victim. I’m not. I think it’s deplorable these things happen. That doesn’t make divorce GOOD. It makes it the lesser of two evils.
Divorce is neither moral or immoral.... it's the actions or landscape that determine the morality of it. You are falling back on "so you're saying" points that your idol Peterson was the subject of, not very cash money.
Quote:
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
My honest opinion is I think you need to reflect more. A lot of what you say is very disconnecting. This is in part of my opinion that you argue in bad faith.
Last post in this thread, exhausted my will to continue.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ganelon
I’m not resentful or anything over that, but I’m just saying. I grew up in a very religious country and even there, nobody really gave a shit what your religion was. We even have a Protestant President now. Nobody actually gives a shit.
It's a different culture then. You wanted to know why I was so "anti religious", I explained why.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
At least you can maybe see now why someone like me might take issue with their country's motto being "In god we trust"? It's not just this harmless thing.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rumox
Divorce is neither moral or immoral.... it's the actions or landscape that determine the morality of it. You are falling back on "so you're saying" points that your idol Peterson was the subject of, not very cash money.
My honest opinion is I think you need to reflect more. A lot of what you say is very disconnecting. This is in part of my opinion that you argue in bad faith.
Last post in this thread, exhausted my will to continue.
My point was more a snide remark. I didn’t actually think you’d say that. But... I cannot see how a divorce is good lol. It never is. It can be better than the alternative, but that’s not good.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BananaCucho
At least you can maybe see now why someone like me might take issue with their country's motto being "In god we trust"? It's not just this harmless thing.
Yeah I think it’s pretty deplorable that thing is happening. Now that you mention it, religious nutters in Romania (where I’m from) also used religion to justify banning gay marriage. So you do have a point there. For the record I actually completely detest organized religion in Romania (it sucks; that’s not even the sole reason why it sucks). Many people say they believe to fit in and then they act completely contrary to their beliefs. It’s disgusting.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ganelon
My point was more a snide remark. I didn’t actually think you’d say that. But... I cannot see how a divorce is good lol. It never is. It can be better than the alternative, but that’s not good.
You can't just put all "marriage" into a good bucket, and all of "divorce" into a bad bucket. What about religious individuals that abuse their position of authority and power to coerce underage girls to marry them? Is that type of marriage "moral", and the girl later wanting to escape "immoral"?
Marriage isn't even for everyone. It shouldn't be for everyone. Some people want to marry. Others don't. The ones that choose to marry aren't in any way more moral than those that choose to never marry. Como se te occure.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
You could make the argument of "if you want to start a family, you should marry" - but we're already into the "ifs" at that point. It's all circumstance. Not the act itself.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BananaCucho
You can't just put all "marriage" into a good bucket, and all of "divorce" into a bad bucket. What about religious individuals that abuse their position of authority and power to coerce underage girls to marry them? Is that type of marriage "moral", and the girl later wanting to escape "immoral"?
Marriage isn't even for everyone. It shouldn't be for everyone. Some people want to marry. Others don't. The ones that choose to marry aren't in any way more moral than those that choose to never marry. Como se te occure.
No, that isn’t okay, and divorce is then justified. That’s orobably one of the few cases where it isn’t wrong in some manner.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Helz
We are totally going to have to just agree to disagree here. Im not sure there is any chance of us finding common ground when you admit in your own statement that of course the Union would not allow the confederacy to go peacefully while simultaneously blaming the confederacy as the aggressor.
Wanting to leave and wanting war are two ideas I will never consider synonymous.
I believe they want to call themselves CHOP now? And why on earth would I make such an absurd argument?
I do love that place. Its the total face of hypocrisy.
They say they want independence but then turn around and demand donations of food, berthing, clothing, and medical supplies.
They say police are too violent and AR-15s are unnecessary but then they create their own cops geared out with AR-15s and physically assault people who wear anything that resembles a police support patch.
I think my favorite moment was when someone was dying and they refused to allow police and emergency services into the area but then blamed the government for that persons death when they didnt get treatment fast enough.
I like what they are doing because it demonstrates how bullshit their beliefs are in actual practice. Kinda reminds me of all the Anti-Gun nuts that hit me up for a gun as soon as they were afraid that the government may fall at the start of this COVID thing. Before people could only argue hypotheticals but now we get to grab the popcorn and watch their hypocrisy unfold in real time. Its very entertaining : )
To your insinuation of the US government allowing anything to separate now its an invalid argument in my opinion for a number of reasons. The biggest is that at the time of the civil war there was nothing prohibiting states from leaving. That had simply not been addressed in any form. Now there is agreements and law prohibiting any state from leaving. Texas joined as sovereign nation and does not have the legal right to leave. These issues did not exist back then.
The second issue is that now we have national debt and every American citizen owes 67,000 dollars twards that debt. So say..Wyoming (which has the smallest population in the US) wanted to leave they would need to fork over 38.7 billion dollars just to cover that National Debt.
Thats not even touching on state / municipality debt, or the federal subsidization that keeps state funded public services and infrastructure working, or even the federal land holdings within the state.
TLDR- Trying to compare areas separating from the US today is totally different than it was back then and makes no sense.
Which laws and agreements prohibit secession? Unilateral secession is illegal, but secession through revolution or consent isn't. I suppose if you consider CHAZ a revolution, that makes it legal, no?
Also glad to hear that the criteria for something being aggressive or not is whether it's legal.
I'm curious to hear what you think should have actually happened during the Civil War, because the cognitive dissonance is dizzying. You say that slavery was bad and the Union was bad because they didn't end slavery 5 milliseconds after Lincoln was elected, yet them trying to stop the Confederacy from leaving to form a racist slave nation was aggressive and bad as well? I guess it is quite typical that "centrists" would argue that everyone should compromise and we should only enslave half the black people.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Personally I don’t think they’re either moral or immoral, they’re good or wrong. I think marriage compels people to adopt more responsibility which is a good thing (generally speaking), although as with most things there are exceptions, I don’t think people are immoral by not getting married though. My point is that religious people do have point when they argue that divorce is wrong. I can’t see it as right (again, generally speaking). This isn’t to say that we should shame people who get divorced though, just that people should have a very long think before they do it and figure out how it came to that and what they might do in the future to avoid something similar occurring.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ganelon
No, that isn’t okay, and divorce is then justified. That’s orobably one of the few cases where it isn’t wrong in some manner.
Yet you just said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ganelon
My point was more a snide remark. I didn’t actually think you’d say that. But... I cannot see how a divorce is good lol. It never is. It can be better than the alternative, but that’s not good.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ this is the whole point we're trying to make. The act of marriage is not moral. The act of divorce is not immoral. It's all circumstance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rumox
Divorce is neither moral or immoral.... it's the actions or landscape that determine the morality of it. You are falling back on "so you're saying" points that your idol Peterson was the subject of, not very cash money.
My honest opinion is I think you need to reflect more. A lot of what you say is very disconnecting. This is in part of my opinion that you argue in bad faith.
Last post in this thread, exhausted my will to continue.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rumox
Divorce is neither moral or immoral.... it's the actions or landscape that determine the morality of it. You are falling back on "so you're saying" points that your idol Peterson was the subject of, not very cash money.
My honest opinion is I think you need to reflect more. A lot of what you say is very disconnecting. This is in part of my opinion that you argue in bad faith.
Last post in this thread, exhausted my will to continue.
No man please we need rational voices here.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ganelon
Personally I don’t think they’re either moral or immoral
Then we are in agreement and at this point are arguing for the sake of arguing lol
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
See we can find some common ground lol
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Sorry I feel I should present the entire situation as it is.
Divorce, generally speaking, is wrong. It’s indicative of something going horribly wrong at some point in time. Maybe you married the wrong person. Maybe you just couldn’t settle your differences properly. Maybe... there’s a lot of maybes. It’s the correct pathway when you’re in an abusive relationship, or when you literally cannot continue to coexist peacefully.
Its justified (but wrong) if the person you married doesn’t cut it (even if they’re not abusive). You have a duty to yourself to live the life you want to live. That doesn’t make divorce good - you still need to consider the consequences it will have on the other person and your children. But it can be justified in that scenario. There’s a very fine line between ‘my current partner isn’t very exciting and I don’t want to spend the rest of my life with them’ and ‘marriage is just about the thrill and divorce is juce’. There’s some situations where uts... not really right but not wholly the wrong thing to do, either.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Marriage can be the right thing to do. It depends on a lot of things. Not everyone should be a parent, and people who don’t want to raise children SHOULDN’T marry someone. Or they can marry, they just shouldn’t have kids.
Marrying someone because you were forced to do so (rape) is wrong. There’s nothing good about it.
But the thing is, marriage forces people to become more responsible (generally speaking). It is definitely the right thing to do for mature adults who want children.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
In keeping with what I’m saying, I think there’s a lot of things that are wrong but that are sometimes justified. For example, if someone holds a gun to your children’s head, killing them is wrong but you’re justified in doing that. I don’t think something being wrong means you (necessarily) shouldn’t do it. It means yiu should consider your actions very carefully before you do something that’s wrong.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
Okay the comparison either murder is a bit dramatic. Let’s say instead that lying is wrong but it’s justified sometimes. Doesn’t make any less wrong though.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
The whole point of marriage is that a serious effort is made to maintain the relationship following the marriage. Various laws / benefits can only be feasibly applied to married couples on this basis. If the institution of marriage becomes sufficiently redundant, many of these laws would become redundant too. People who get married and divorce a week later are undermining the institution of marriage and are showing a lack of respect. Of course, the person you marry may spontaneously reveal themselves as a psychopathic abuser after 3 days and then you're fully justified in leaving them =P. However, you're kind of dodging the discussion by insisting that "the actions or landscape determine the morality of it" - that applies to literally every decision anyone ever makes.
Re: Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism
To be clear, it's not like I look down my nose at individuals who get divorces. It's their life to live and it's not my place to judge them. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't possibly fully know their circumstances. But acting like marriage and divorce are moral choices that can be made in a solely individualistic context strikes me as a little off.