S-FM 302: Magellan (15p)

From Black Flag Nightless:

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Originally Posted by Voss

If we see anyone that participated in this game do this type of ragequit/angleshooting again, harsher punishments than ladder point withholding and single game bans will be given. You've seen it happen here. You've been warned. Don't do it.

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I don't see anything in here about "if you insinuate someone is not smart, go toe to toe with a player that is baiting you/egging you on and call them mean names such as 'moron/idiot', and insult the host in a personal message again, harsher punishments than ladder point withholding and single games bans will be given". So the argument of "you were toxic 2 games in a row which justifies a 2 game ban instead of a warning such as Frinckles received" is invalid.

I played this game exactly the same as I've played all my recent games since returning to the site. Aggressive, abrasive, but holding my tongue a lot more than in the past.

I invite FM staff to go back and read through all my recent games, and punish me for all those as well. For consistency sake of course.

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Originally Posted by aamirus

You can think what you want, i reviewed his infraction history before I posted. And I was simply suggesting that fm staff COULD have referenced some of that history in the punishment post to show that it’s not just the single ragequit, and help justify why an offense here would merit a harsher punishment

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You literally just wrote an essay shitting all over the infraction process, and now you're citing that record to brand a player as having a "serious issue with toxicity going back years on this site". Can't you just swallow your pride and acknowledge you're acting like an authority on issues you weren't even here for? This isn't me "thinking what I want". This isn't me defending a mate. I've barely spoken to him off site. I'm telling you something literally anyone other than the notoriously toxic players from the time period would tell you. You said something absurd and you're getting the consensus view.

Looking forward to getting self righteous sass from the next mod in 4 years who throws this infraction in my face as "proof of toxic history".

Me strolling into the thread after reading my zero mentions knowing that no one besides Varcron and SB16 acknowledged my posts
:gun: ResidentSleeper

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Originally Posted by deathworlds

Me strolling into the thread after reading my zero mentions knowing that no one besides Varcron and SB16 acknowledged my posts
:gun: ResidentSleeper

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I see and appreciate your posts DW

My most recent infraction was August of 2018

Not counting the one from yesterday of course for abusing the reporting feature lol

(why would that one count, it was after punishment was dealt)

Edit: Also not including the rage quit, which again is completely unrelated

As someone who participated in this game and as former FM staff I'll have to disagree with how Banana is being punished.
The only player I could possibly see any evidence that they were potentially the victim of "excessive toxicity" on site is Jan. And even then I don't think punishing banana here makes sense, because a lot of players were insulting not only jan but eachother during this game.
What bothers me about how this is being handled is that FM staff doesn't seem to have really come to a consensus here in regards to why banana is being punished. Is it for insulting host? Is it for making jan leave? Is it for bullying omgroflbbq (who's COM we still don't know, which is entirety unprecedented for fm on this site)? Who knows!

I've always been an advocate for host's rights, how 'bout this, if y'all really wanna punish Banana, put him on the greylist, let the next few hosts decide if they want him in their games or not.

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Originally Posted by yzb25

You literally just wrote an essay shitting all over the infraction process, and now you're citing that record to brand a player as having a "serious issue with toxicity going back years on this site". Can't you just swallow your pride and acknowledge you're acting like an authority on issues you weren't even here for? This isn't me "thinking what I want". This isn't me defending a mate. I've barely spoken to him off site. I'm telling you something literally anyone other than the notoriously toxic players from the time period would tell you. You said something absurd and you're getting the consensus view.

Looking forward to getting self righteous sass from the next mod in 4 years who throws this infraction in my face as "proof of toxic history".

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i left it at "you can think what you want" because i don't intend to share his history. i was just offering a suggestion to the fm staff as i said repeatedly. i'm not entirely sure what you're taking offense at man

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Originally Posted by aamirus

i left it at "you can think what you want" because i don't intend to share his history. i was just offering a suggestion to the fm staff as i said repeatedly. i'm not entirely sure what you're taking offense at man

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I'm saying you don't know his history. At best, you have the site-equivalent of a highlight reel of his worst moments for the last 7 years. Your sample is ass and biased by design.

And I'm getting worked up because I don't want 5 more dweebs who joined in 2017 saying "oh BC? Yeah he has a history of serious toxicity like PTB and duck right?" I'm literally just trying to clear the air.

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Originally Posted by deathworlds

Me strolling into the thread after reading my zero mentions knowing that no one besides Varcron and SB16 acknowledged my posts
:gun: ResidentSleeper

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Huh?

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Originally Posted by yzb25

I'm saying you don't know his history. At best, you have the site-equivalent of a highlight reel of his worst moments for the last 7 years. Your sample is ass and biased by design.

And I'm getting worked up because I don't want 5 more dweebs who joined in 2017 saying "oh BC? Yeah he has a history of serious toxicity like PTB and duck right?" I'm literally just trying to clear the air.

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oh are you just defending him from an accusation of being toxic in the past? He had already said that was true and that he was trying to be better now, that's the only reason i mentioned that

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Originally Posted by deathworlds

As someone who participated in this game and as former FM staff I'll have to disagree with how Banana is being punished.
The only player I could possibly see any evidence that they were potentially the victim of "excessive toxicity" on site is Jan. And even then I don't think punishing banana here makes sense, because a lot of players were insulting not only jan but eachother during this game.
What bothers me about how this is being handled is that FM staff doesn't seem to have really come to a consensus here in regards to why banana is being punished. Is it for insulting host? Is it for making jan leave? Is it for bullying omgroflbbq (who's COM we still don't know, which is entirety unprecedented for fm on this site)? Who knows!

I've always been an advocate for host's rights, how 'bout this, if y'all really wanna punish Banana, put him on the greylist, let the next few hosts decide if they want him in their games or not.

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DW's post here makes sense especially this and that. There is no 100% consensus by FM management as to why Banana was punished, reasons varying from toxicity to making someone ragequit, hell, at this point the reason could be saying interesting. I concur with DW that he should be added into the greylist for a few games and let the hosts decide.

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Originally Posted by Varcron

DW's post here makes sense especially this and that. There is no 100% consensus by FM management as to why Banana was punished, reasons varying from toxicity to making someone ragequit, hell, at this point the reason could be saying interesting. I concur with DW that he should be added into the greylist for a few games and let the hosts decide.

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Please use the quote break button

ami probably has steam coming out of her ears right now

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Originally Posted by aamirus

oh are you just defending him from an accusation of being toxic in the past? He had already said that was true and that he was trying to be better now, that's the only reason i mentioned that

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Even narrower than that - purely the exact phrasing of what you said implied he's been causing drama in every other game for years rather than being a guy who made some mistakes in a handful of a hundred. The others are better authorities on the broader discussion.

Again, just clearing the air.

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Originally Posted by BananaCucho

Please use the quote break button

ami probably has steam coming out of her ears right now

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I could've quote broke it, but the colors look nicer.

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Originally Posted by BananaCucho

Please use the quote break button

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heehee <3

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Originally Posted by BananaCucho

ami probably has steam coming out of her ears right now

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I do not agree to the greylist idea btw

Because I just read the reasoning that the list exists:

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Originally Posted by greylist

Recently, some members have been playing around the FM rules while not clearly breaking them. They were playing against their win conditions in a way that is hard to see as unintentional, especially when repeated several times in several games, while they sometimes kept interest in their games. That created a grey area, but still heavily hurt the quality of games. In order to put a stop to this, the FM Greylist is now being established. Serial rule circumventers who have hurt the quality of games on a long-term basis by intentionally playing suboptimally and who have showed no intent to improve their play and behavior will be put on this list.

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This does not describe this situation at all

I will however, accept a new "bananalist" if you want to put me on that. For "not making people rage quit, but still needing to be punished because they are banana"

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Originally Posted by Varcron

I could've quote broke it, but the colors look nicer.

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yo I could set it so it automatically does something like this:

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Originally Posted by Varcron

I could've quote broke it,

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test

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Originally Posted by Varcron

but the colors

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1234

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Originally Posted by Varcron

look nicer.

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5678

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Originally Posted by aamirus

yo I could set it so it automatically does something like this:


test


1234



5678

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That actually would be a really time effective way to color coat while also quote breaking.

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Originally Posted by aamirus

yo I could set it so it automatically does something like this:


test


1234



5678

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Those are super ugly, unreadable, and tbh you should ban yourself for even posting this post, yuck

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Originally Posted by BananaCucho

Those are super ugly, unreadable, and tbh you should ban yourself for even posting this post, yuck

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omg okay pick some better colors but i just meant i could make it alternate. Or hell it could just pick a random color each time from a set of banana approved colors

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Originally Posted by aamirus

omg okay pick some better colors but i just meant i could make it alternate. Or hell it could just pick a random color each time from a set of banana approved colors

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Neon yellow every time

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Originally Posted by aamirus

omg okay pick some better colors but i just meant i could make it alternate. Or hell it could just pick a random color each time from a set of banana approved colors

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I think the quote break feature is fine tho, let people pick their own nasty colorses

I think Aamirus was just giving her civil input as a community member here, and that is welcomed, like all civil input from all community members here, including Banana (despite his disagreement with the punishment, he has been speaking in a civil manner, and I do think that is noteworthy and thank him for it).
@Stealthbomber16 I said AIVION and I said the same thing, not Ganelon. Ganelon acted without our consent, and what he said is NOT official, unlike what AIVION and myself have said here. What we said and what Ganelon said is indeed contradictory, yes, and the staff's position consists only in what AIVION and I said.

Note that the concerns of the community on Banana's punishment are being discussed internally at the moment.

That's a lot of fancy colored names viewing the thread.

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Originally Posted by Varcron

That's a lot of fancy colored names viewing the thread.

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we need a yellow so we can make a rainbow

they're all yellow because they're all donors. how do you think they became staff?

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

I think Aamirus was just giving her civil input as a community member here, and that is welcomed, like all civil input from all community members here, including Banana (despite his disagreement with the punishment, he has been speaking in a civil manner, and I do think that is noteworthy and thank him for it).
@Stealthbomber16 I said AIVION and I said the same thing, not Ganelon. Ganelon acted without our consent, and what he said is NOT official, unlike what AIVION and myself have said here. What we said and what Ganelon said is indeed contradictory, yes, and the staff's position consists only in what AIVION and I said.

Note that the concerns of the community on Banana's punishment are being discussed internally at the moment.

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Lol this starting to make me think about the Blink battle of the 42 hour days lol. I like Bannana go team Bannana. Lol

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Originally Posted by aamirus

we need a yellow so we can make a rainbow

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Well here you go lol

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Originally Posted by Mike

Lol this starting to make me think about the Blink battle of the 42 hour days lol. I like Bannana go team Bannana. Lol

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https://youtu.be/7m1h0Hf5uMs

Amendment of the verdict

After internal discussion prompted by the community's feedback, BananaCucho's punishment has been reduced to a simple warning for personal attacks. Although he did personally attack Jan, Rotholfo and the host, and that this is not something that is acceptable, the circumstances in which this happened do make it less damning than we originally thought.

We maintain that Banana attacked Jan strongly, even compared to others; attacking him even after he stated he was quitting because of toxicity was definetly overboard and unique to Banana. Proof: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...508#post874508
However, Jan seems not to have taken offense about it after the game, and Banana was not the only contributor to his departure; there was a misjudgement from staff on the gravity of this point.

We also maintain that Banana's attacks against Rotholfo were not warranted by Rotholfo's behavior: calling someone a moron/idiot thrice because he's wrong is not ok, and Rotholfo had not told Banana he had anger issues at that point.
Proof: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...l=1#post874152 and the posts after it.
However, it seems that Banana actively tried to avoid being toxic at Rotholfo after Rotholfo told him that, which shows that he did make efforts to limit toxicity and didn't intend to insult him. This matters a lot, because the main point of moderation is to ensure that future games go well.

As for insulting the host, we understand that being told during a game that you specifically will be infracted, especially without being judged by the staff team beforehand, can generate justified anger. Although insulting isn't the solution (posting an appeal or a report in the appropriate forum is), given the circumstances in which this happened and since it involves a member of staff making serious mistakes, we are more lenient on that point.

Although the original judgement was done in good faith, people in post-game chat have brought to our attention that some things the staff considered as unacceptable were considered by the community as rather soft issues. The rules and the way staff enforces them are here to make the community better and funner, and they have to follow the community's mentality to a reasonable extent in order to achieve this goal. This is why Banana's punishment is changed to a warning. I apologize in the name of staff for the aforementioned disparity between the community's will and the staff's first action, and for the drama this first action created.
I'd also like to thank the community and especially Banana himself for remaining civil in their criticism. That is highly appreciated, and I think staff will agree about this. The debate was actually constructive, and allowed us to make some changes to the way similar situations are handled.

I hope that we can move forward to the next game without bad feelings, that we can all have fun there, and that we'll see @BananaCucho in it too :)

yay

I'm very happy that Fm staff is mature and open enough to take input from the community!

Also, I'd like to point out that their end all/be all goals here are to make the community a better place. They spent a lot of time deliberating before the first verdict, and poured a FUCKTON of time into rereading parts of the game. Keep in mind, the FM staff have lives outside, and they are sacrificing their time to try and make a better experience for the community. Sure they might not get it right all the time, but I'd like to highlight that their initial ruling was not one of malice or vengeance (although it's understandable why banana felt this way). No member of the staff relishes rereading posts, arguing about punishments and engaging in drama. They just want to run and play mafia games, and I think they're doing it the best they possibly can. And the fact that they changed their ruling bc of the feedback from the community enshrines this. A shitty fm staff would have given y'all the finger.

And also would like to apologize to Banana for what he went through the past few days. I played a part in the ruling, and personally, I was saddened when Banana said he knew what the community wanted and was actively trying to reign in his gameplay to be more in line with the community. Banning is a much better tool for people that are refusing to change, and this is definitely not one of those cases.

When there's a big fm, I'll for sure break my self imposed ban on fm games here and would love to play with you Banana. And I know I'm not the only one.

No hard feelings. Ya'll want a more inclusive community and I get that

I'll work on scaling back my aggressiveness more

Also to everyone I called names or insulted this game, I apologize for that. It's not personal when I get heated in FM. I'll work on that going forward regardless.

And by the way, I am the one who advised privately, after seeing toxicity and ragequits which I discussed the host, to announce in the thread that infractions would be given for this game to stop the toxicity. That part is not Ganelon's fault, but mine (although it is not wrong either, because Frog was in a clear case of ragequitting here). Sorry for the bit of drama that created.

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Originally Posted by BananaCucho

No hard feelings. Ya'll want a more inclusive community and I get that

I'll work on scaling back my aggressiveness more

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Originally Posted by BananaCucho

Also to everyone I called names or insulted this game, I apologize for that. It's not personal when I get heated in FM. I'll work on that going forward regardless.

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Where's the rep for post-game?

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Where's the rep for post-game?

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Its that little triangle/caution button in FM. It has to be manually added, just fill out the box that comes up

Ignore the text, that just has to be changed, the rep will go through tho

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Originally Posted by BananaCucho

Also to everyone I called names or insulted this game, I apologize for that. It's not personal when I get heated in FM. I'll work on that going forward regardless.

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I like thunderdoming with you in games though ._.

The site would be easier to monitor if we just banned people who cant display common sense.

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Originally Posted by Mesk514

The site would be easier to monitor if we just banned people who cant display common sense.

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But then there will be no staff left! It will just be Arsonist left with MasterNinja.

Moofia.

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Originally Posted by Frinckles

Moofia.

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That's a pretty spicy opinion on all of this.

pog

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Originally Posted by BananaCucho

Also to everyone I called names or insulted this game, I apologize for that. It's not personal when I get heated in FM. I'll work on that going forward regardless.

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Dude I lived the back and forth with you in game.

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Originally Posted by Voss

I'm very happy that Fm staff is mature and open enough to take input from the community!

Also, I'd like to point out that their end all/be all goals here are to make the community a better place. They spent a lot of time deliberating before the first verdict, and poured a FUCKTON of time into rereading parts of the game. Keep in mind, the FM staff have lives outside, and they are sacrificing their time to try and make a better experience for the community. Sure they might not get it right all the time, but I'd like to highlight that their initial ruling was not one of malice or vengeance (although it's understandable why banana felt this way). No member of the staff relishes rereading posts, arguing about punishments and engaging in drama. They just want to run and play mafia games, and I think they're doing it the best they possibly can. And the fact that they changed their ruling bc of the feedback from the community enshrines this. A shitty fm staff would have given y'all the finger.

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That is very true. We all know when that happens on the past. I am happy to see the positive changes from the old way things used to be.. but Avis is still mafia

-vote Voss

I just found out that the stuff that Banana was telling the mod in game was not 2 friends hovering smack to each other. That it was real. Now that is not acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Mike

I just found out that the stuff that Banana was telling the mod in game was not 2 friends hovering smack to each other. That it was real. Now that is not acceptable.

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In game? Or the private message stuff? I don't think I ever claimed that what I said in the private message was just "talking smack amongst friends". I was fired up and angry and reacted accordingly

Mike it's not as simple as that. Please do not stoke any more unneeded flames.

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Originally Posted by BananaCucho

In game? Or the private message stuff? I don't think I ever claimed that what I said in the private message was just "talking smack amongst friends". I was fired up and angry and reacted accordingly

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I am saying I misread it as friends talking smack. Mag is a good guy and the dude try’s not cool to take that crap out on him. I like you banana. But the tear down on Mag now I see was real over the line. I wax on your side because I thought it was all about Jan and his rage quit and I don’t think you should be blamed for that at all.