Witch is extremely weak and underwhelming, propose that Witch sees their target's feedback

Witch as of now is incredibly ineffectual. A part of that is that the witch has no way of knowing if the person they are controlling is actually doing anything unless they get lucky and witch a killing role.

I propose that the witch receives the feedback of whoever they target for the night. For example, if their target is a sheriff and the sheriff sees feedback that their own supposed target is Mafia, the witch ALSO sees that. If their target is roleblocked, the witch sees that as well.

The in-game explanation is that the witch controls other people by "seeing through their eyes".

This would 1: give witch utility in the form of information gathering, either to help the other neutrals, or to hide from town (e.g. claim they are escort when their target was roleblocked), and 2: allow the witch to more properly strategize and improve their targets as the game goes on. This is essentially a soft-detect feature. Witch can infer from feedback (or lack thereof) what class of role their target might be. Witch can also see if they are actually doing anything.

This also gives the "target knows he is being witched" option more balancing credibility, as a target would know that whatever feedback he got for the night, the witch would know. And thus he should keep a look out for particular claims OR pms going on in day. It also adds another level of intrigue. For example, if a target was roleblocked, and two people claim to be the escorts who roleblocked them, Town must figure out who is telling the truth and who is lying.

Witch is a very strong role but it's not brainless like Judge. It does benefit a lot from people openly claiming but figuring out who is who without that is also part of the fun. Giving Witch too much info will make it too easy to claim strong roles with it which Evils shouldn't be able to do with how much power they have. Worst case scenario a Witch is a roleblocker, in best it can kill and create false info for invests. No reason to buff it.

I agree with the spirit of the idea, but Witch shouldn't be told exact feedback, to account for concerns of Witch just grabbing really strong claims and becoming "brainless" as Rufus puts it. When I suggested the same idea a while back I merely suggested "tell the Witch if their target actually visit anyone", b/c it just says "You controlled # to visit #" which can be said even if you control a non-visiting role.

But one thing people tend to forget about Witch is that Witch can actually make non-visiting roles visit people. This is a feature no one is able to exploit b/c its so unknown and so situational. Or maybe because I'm wrong about it all along and I was just hallucinating. So any "witch knows some sort of feedback" suggestion needs to account for that in mind and have messages that reflect that.

"Your target, #, normally gets out. You controlled them to go to #." at end of the night, if the person you are witching to visit is a visiting role.
"Your target, #, usually isolates themselves. You controlled them to go to #." at end of the night, if the person you are witching to visit is a non-visiting role forced into action to visit someone.

And if your witching causes a self-visit, then it will say "Your target, #, blah blah, to go to (same #)". no change in message's wording.

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Originally Posted by Grakylan

I agree with the spirit of the idea, but Witch shouldn't be told exact feedback, to account for concerns of Witch just grabbing really strong claims and becoming "brianless" as Rufus puts it. When I suggested the same idea a while back I merely suggested "tell the Witch if their target actually visit anyone", b/c it just says "You controlled # to visit #" which can be said even if you control a non-visiting role.

But one thing people tend to forget about Witch is that Witch can actually make non-visiting roles visit people. This is a feature no one is able to exploit b/c its so unknown and so situational.

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This is the first I have even heard of this. This absolutely needs to be made visible in the role card.

I can agree with your analysis. I think some form of feedback for the witch is needed, but it doesn't need to be a hard-detect sort of deal.

Making non-visiting roles visit is not a hidden mechanic. Witching revealed Town Gov into confirmed Vet is a common strategy.

Witch has sufficient feedback as it is, there is no need to buff it.
Receiving the target's feedback basically makes Witch an exact role Investigator, that's ridiculously OP.
Witches can already tell if their targets visit or not (if you witch someone who's jailed / RB'd, it will just say You controlled X to visit [blank]).
Receiving feedback about whether or not the target USUALLY visits is again, an unnecessary buff.

imo witch is the 2nd strongest neut evil behind judge

But it has a high skill cap. You get limited feedback but based off that feedback you can make a lot of inferences. You have information about players that they don't even have about themselves. You do have to gamble a little.

At the very least, like any other non-town you can go for an executioner-style play and since you KNOW that the people you controlled have bogus LWs it shouldn't be that hard to either get yourself 'confirmed' as town invest or as executioner. You can sneakily push someone for trolly reasons without drawing too much attention to yourself and then once you've actually seen their LW decide whether you want to double down with a claim against them.

and as the other guy said you can force people to visit veterans and force vigs to shoot confirmed townies which are both really powerful plays

in the end game you can control the mafia so they don't shoot you, and even force a solo win by making them kill themselves

overall i don't agree that it's weak. With victim knows they are controlled on it does nerf you a little and force you to be more cautious about trying to lynch your victims but generally these saves have enchantress so you just need to keep a decent fake lw which you should be doing anyway

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Originally Posted by aamirus

With victim knows they are controlled on it does nerf you a little and force you to be more cautious about trying to lynch your victims but generally these saves have enchantress so you just need to keep a decent fake lw which you should be doing anyway

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It's not even about having to be cautions, this option basically makes witch only able to roleblock and interact with killing roles because people know their feedback isn't valid anymore. I really don't like this setting and i would never turn it on i keep it off for enchantress also.

Witches role is to confuse town. It is strong enough to wreck havoc amongst invests even if you don't know what you are doing, and if you are perceptive to what your victims say during the day, that is all the feedback you need to further cause chaos. Sometimes you get lucky and get instant feedback from a vet, vigi kill or invest coming out claiming they found evil. It is a high skill cap and extremely difficult to win solo, but it is definitely possible. Getting definitive feedback is unnecessarily retarding the role and would become way too powerful. Witches are fine as they are in my opinion, and it is always my wish to get the role.