The End of the 72222 Experiment Results.

72222 was a save that aimed to create a game mode with a 33-33-33 winrate split between the 3 main factions. The Town (7 Players) The Mafia/Triad (4 Players) and the Cult/Neutral(2 Players)

Due to the no faction really having a solid majority it was a chaotic mode where no faction could realistically acheive a voting block and the games were most often decided on the final day only.
It was like a box of chocolates. You never knew what you were going to get.
Anyway as you know due to circumstances outside of my control I am never allowed to host 72222 nor play sc2mafia again therefore I thought I'd post the final results of 72222.
Ideally I wanted a solid 100 games of it to get a really fleshed out picture of the balance of the save, but unfortunately this is all I can do.

Total Full 72222 Games Played (That I witnessed) : 68

Town Wins : 22
Mafia Wins : 10
Triad Wins : 16
Cult Wins : 17
Solo Neut Wins : 3

So in the end 72222 achieved nearly what it set it to do acheiving a 32/38/29 win distribution.

My only complaint would be that the night immunity of the Triad/Mafia helped that eek out that extra win precentage which is why I added jailors back in to the mix halfway through. If I could change one mechanic about the game it would be that solo Dragonheads and Godfathers would be able to demote to Enforcer, forcing the mafia/triad gun dilemma, and eliminating the wins mafia/triad got by having a night immune DH/GF alive.

Anyway to those that didn't rage quit out of 72222 and enjoyed the save, I thank you for playing it with me and helping me test it. It was a good time. Carry on the 72222 legacy.

so that's why u acted like a troll.

? I've never acted like a troll. I genuinely enjoy the 72222 save. Sorry if you didn't enjoy it, but I hosted the save because I liked it.

This is awesome.
Good work zz orange

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Originally Posted by SuperJack

This is awesome.
Good work zz orange

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UWOWU HEWWO!!!

Cult roles shouldn't exist in any form of Mafia games..

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Originally Posted by theoneceko

UWOWU HEWWO!!!

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I have no idea what this means but you can have a hug *hug*

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

Cult roles shouldn't exist in any form of Mafia games..

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Cults are absolutely terrible.

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

Cult roles shouldn't exist in any form of Mafia games..

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Cult is broken game mechanic.

cult wins more often than Mafia/Triad who would've guessed
also this save sounds awful, 3 night kills per phase? how long do games last?

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Originally Posted by OzyWho

Cult roles shouldn't exist in any form of Mafia games..

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Debatable, but if you put them in a game - you should not have any other major evil faction. It's incredibly imbalanced

Oh yeah Oberon, there's no neutral killing probably should have stated that somewhere its two killing roles per night, the neutrals are weighted heavily towards benign roles, evils are also in there such as high % Auditor, which often makes the Triad/Mafia weaker, when the Dragonhead/GF gets audited. It also spawns citizens which can lead to town won ties in the right circumstances.

Having played your 72222 save at least 5 times but probably closer to 10 times, here are my thoughts on it:

I think you did succeed in creating a save at that had a roughly 33-33-33 winrate split between the different factions, but you paid a very high cost for it. That cost being a significant decrease in player agency.

The save felt much more random than a traditional save with a much lower emphasis on deception, reads, and spotting lies, and a much greater emphasis on random luck. As every faction in the save it felt like your ability to influence the outcome of the game was significantly lower than in a normal game. This was especially true for the town roles. Mafia/Triad still got a lot of value out of their reads in eliminating the right targets, and cult working with town could form a large enough voting block to eliminate the killers (but even then cult was best off just remaining silent so they weren't targeted), but as town lacking a majority voting block you would often get stonewalled during the day with most, if not all, of the evils just remaining silent, providing very little information to go off of.

Furthermore being a vocal townie would put a large target on your back with both Mafia and Triad looking to kill you while cult would actively avoid recruiting you due to your lowered life expectancy - this further encouraged unproductive days where the most effective way to get people on trial was through memeing about them. Playing as town felt like you were just waiting for enough evils to kill each other or visit the town veteran for town to manage to get a majority, and only then could town start having a significant role.

Even in games where the days were productive and town managed to lynch a scum every single day, town would still often lose as they would bleed players to mafia/triad kills and cult conversions faster than they could kill off the evils.

So overall while the save might be balanced in theory (where balanced means equal win rates for the different factions), it comes at the cost of much more random game with lower player agency and therefore a less enjoyable experience.

Just my two cents on it.

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Originally Posted by LagAttack

Having played your 72222 save at least 5 times but probably closer to 10 times, here are my thoughts on it:

I think you did succeed in creating a save at that had a roughly 33-33-33 winrate split between the different factions, but you paid a very high cost for it. That cost being a significant decrease in player agency.

The save felt much more random than a traditional save with a much lower emphasis on deception, reads, and spotting lies, and a much greater emphasis on random luck. As every faction in the save it felt like your ability to influence the outcome of the game was significantly lower than in a normal game. This was especially true for the town roles. Mafia/Triad still got a lot of value out of their reads in eliminating the right targets, and cult working with town could form a large enough voting block to eliminate the killers (but even then cult was best off just remaining silent so they weren't targeted), but as town lacking a majority voting block you would often get stonewalled during the day with most, if not all, of the evils just remaining silent, providing very little information to go off of.

Furthermore being a vocal townie would put a large target on your back with both Mafia and Triad looking to kill you while cult would actively avoid recruiting you due to your lowered life expectancy - this further encouraged unproductive days where the most effective way to get people on trial was through memeing about them. Playing as town felt like you were just waiting for enough evils to kill each other or visit the town veteran for town to manage to get a majority, and only then could town start having a significant role.

Even in games where the days were productive and town managed to lynch a scum every single day, town would still often lose as they would bleed players to mafia/triad kills and cult conversions faster than they could kill off the evils.

So overall while the save might be balanced in theory (where balanced means equal win rates for the different factions), it comes at the cost of much more random game with lower player agency and therefore a less enjoyable experience.

Just my two cents on it.

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Wow. Dude

@LagAttack

Go sign up for this game.

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...384#post924384

I agree with your evalution LagAttack. I didn't really know how best to solve that problem, I wanted there to still be role variety by adding the 2 randoms, but I feel Town also needs more protective roles at the same time to help fight the cult. If I were to change one final thing, I think I might mess around, with allowing all mafia to be roleblocked making escort a fearsome role, and also increasing the spawn chances of town power roles, be it veteran, investigator, jailor, vigilante and making other less useful roles, like spy/ coroner/ sheriff, detective, less common. Even if coroner is the best role in the game, it doesn't work as well in 72222. I feel the save needed a tad more player agency, but I feel it also added a lot back in the form of unique scenarios and alliances that would otherwise never show up in normal games. Like if you were a citizen in the end game you might be able to actually afford to lynch the last cultist and survive with your vest and clutch the win. I also tried to make neutral roles more beneficial overall to the town with executioners obviously not always having a town target, amnesiac not being able to become mafia, low survivor chance, higher jester chance leading to potential mafia deaths etc.... Also nerfed evils to prevent them from helping other evils snowball. It's not a save I would want to become commonplace, but I like it as a save that gets played every 1/10 games or so that is solid to shake up the regular mafia landscape.

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Originally Posted by SuperJack

@LagAttack

Go sign up for this game.

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...384#post924384

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The game looks like it's already full and also starting in a few days, I'm going to be increasingly busy during that time so it's best I not sign up for it anyway. Although I have been eyeing Auwt's open 14p game... will consider signing up for that one once it becomes more clear when it will start!

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Originally Posted by ZZorange

I agree with your evalution LagAttack. I didn't really know how best to solve that problem, I wanted there to still be role variety by adding the 2 randoms, but I feel Town also needs more protective roles at the same time to help fight the cult. If I were to change one final thing, I think I might mess around, with allowing all mafia to be roleblocked making escort a fearsome role, and also increasing the spawn chances of town power roles, be it veteran, investigator, jailor, vigilante and making other less useful roles, like spy/ coroner/ sheriff, detective, less common. Even if coroner is the best role in the game, it doesn't work as well in 72222. I feel the save needed a tad more player agency, but I feel it also added a lot back in the form of unique scenarios and alliances that would otherwise never show up in normal games. Like if you were a citizen in the end game you might be able to actually afford to lynch the last cultist and survive with your vest and clutch the win. I also tried to make neutral roles more beneficial overall to the town with executioners obviously not always having a town target, amnesiac not being able to become mafia, low survivor chance, higher jester chance leading to potential mafia deaths etc.... Also nerfed evils to prevent them from helping other evils snowball. It's not a save I would want to become commonplace, but I like it as a save that gets played every 1/10 games or so that is solid to shake up the regular mafia landscape.

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I agree with most of your comments here, other than I'm not convinced that jesters can ever be beneficial to town on average, simply due to the jester meta being exceedingly antagonistic towards town - they might cause a scum to suicide from time to time, but scum is much more likely to abstain than town is, so on average I believe town will be suiciding more often to a jester lynch, not to mention the jester being lynched in place of a true scum.

I originally was going to say that I don't think executioners could be beneficial to town on average either, since with 14 other players for their target, 7 of them being town, 7 of them being scum, they're at best breaking even with targeting scum half the time and town the other half. But thinking about it a bit more, the executioner is likely to be vocal, drawing attacks from the mafia and triad and therefore potentially sparing some townies for a night, so on average a slightly positive buff to town, albeit with a very high variance as they'll still be targeting town half the time.

I did not enjoy playing the save at first, but admittedly by the the time I had played it a few times I didn't mind playing it every now and then... although that might also be because I figured out what town roles I needed to blacklist so I would never be town. But playing it as one of the evil factions, it was an interesting change of pace.

There is also one role which had a particularly interesting dynamic that I think is worth mentioning.

The cultist. And specifically the cultist, NOT the witch doctor. Because the cultist could be healed by the Witch Doc every night, they could lead the town, earning the trust of the Masons (and avoiding the bludgeoning), while still being protected from the attacks of the mafia and triad thanks to the witch doctor's protection.

Ahh yes the cultist sheriff a classic 72222 maneuver as both cult and town benefit from the removal of gangs. One of my favourites as well.

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Originally Posted by LagAttack

The game looks like it's already full and also starting in a few days, I'm going to be increasingly busy during that time so it's best I not sign up for it anyway. Although I have been eyeing Auwt's open 14p game... will consider signing up for that one once it becomes more clear when it will start!

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I have a strong hunch that one of them has long forgotten about the game. It's also the one we have no idea how to contact. :(

You can always sign as a reserve if you want to, i.e. a replacement if someone goes inactive in the middle of the game or cannot play anymore due to real life constraints, @LagAttack .

Your analysis is very good in my humble opinion, by the way. Town is meant to be the uninformed majority, which implies that... they're a majority! Else, it becomes much more of an "ally with this scum and pray" game, which is an issue often encountered in games with multiple factions with factional kills. The fact every town member is a power role (by power role, I mean non-citizen role) adds to the significant drop in the importance of actual deception and of day chat. Another factor to this is the omnipresence of kills, as you mentioned; any efficient townie will instantly get attacked if scum are somewhat clever.

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I like the spirit of the setup @ZZorange . It comes down to one word: balance. However, it's pretty hard to balance a 15 players game where everyone has a power, where town doesn't have majority and where there are 3 scum factions and 2 neutrals. Cult itself is a very powerful enemy and should probably not be in any game that also has mafia or triad factions; it's a faction by itself, and probably the strongest in the game.
Therefore, here are my suggestions to improve this setup considering the Arcade's meta (i.e. not in an FM spirit):

- Increase the amount of townies so that town has the majority and can keep it for a reasonable time. Town shouldn't lose majority after one mislynch outside of very specific and unlikely circumstances, for example.

- Decrease the amount of power roles. In other words, add citizens, even just a few. If there are really not many of them, they act as another category that can be used simply enough to solve the game through role counting. This will increase the power of deception and logic and decrease the influence of night actions. Plus, "citizens" with a one-use vest can be quite powerful. In forum mafia, that'd actually count as a power role lol.

- Remove cult! It doesn't belong in a multifactional game.

This should lead to something along the lines of a 9/2/2/2, or of a 8/3/2/2 (with the 3-member mafia team having less powerful roles than the 2-member triad team, perhaps even without a factional kill but with a one-time killing role like kidnapper or disguiser), or a 8/3/3/1 (the neutral being a benign to avoid giving too much power to the evils, or with a neutral evil and both mafia and triad having no factional kill, only mafia killing roles). If those numbers seem a bit high for town to you, remember you're putting citizens in there, which decreases the town's power.

Of course, that only works if you have people willing to try setups that aren't highly conventional, as you already noticed... This kind of setup thinking is more fit for Forum Mafia, which has a culture of originality and openness in setups. It would be amazing if the Arcade had a bit of that culture too, and it's good to see people trying to implement it!

i don't think anyone in the mod thought zz's 72222 was an attempt at a legitimate save. i thought he was just trying to ruin other players' games. there are some truly wonky saves ppl try to host in setup, and 72222 definitely fell in that category. IT'S EVEN ANNOYING TO FUCKING SPELL. YOU HAVE TO TYPE THE '2' FOUR TIMES!!! if u explained why u made 72222 before getting banned, the sc2maf custom mod community would've seen u in a better light and as a result not have filed all those reports on you.

it's been a while, but there were times when i said "glhf" at start of matches just bc i realized how toxic i usually am on the mod. things like this will always improve ur relationship with the community, since authentic and fake politeness are both extremely hard to find in these games. you could've (and should've) done something similar if u didn't want most ppl to advocate for ur ban.

ur insistence to lynch defaults and those who protect them can prevent people who -prefer evil from pretending afk, but ur also reducing the quality of games by centering discussions around "ceko protected default, he must be scum!!" also, the fact u continually targeted me for about a week after my first report just made things worse for YOU (extra 4 reports for arrow to consider xD)

however, good effort with keeping tally of each faction's win---if you actually did that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by LagAttack

I agree with most of your comments here, other than I'm not convinced that jesters can ever be beneficial to town on average, simply due to the jester meta being exceedingly antagonistic towards town - they might cause a scum to suicide from time to time, but scum is much more likely to abstain than town is, so on average I believe town will be suiciding more often to a jester lynch, not to mention the jester being lynched in place of a true scum.

I originally was going to say that I don't think executioners could be beneficial to town on average either, since with 14 other players for their target, 7 of them being town, 7 of them being scum, they're at best breaking even with targeting scum half the time and town the other half. But thinking about it a bit more, the executioner is likely to be vocal, drawing attacks from the mafia and triad and therefore potentially sparing some townies for a night, so on average a slightly positive buff to town, albeit with a very high variance as they'll still be targeting town half the time.

I did not enjoy playing the save at first, but admittedly by the the time I had played it a few times I didn't mind playing it every now and then... although that might also be because I figured out what town roles I needed to blacklist so I would never be town. But playing it as one of the evil factions, it was an interesting change of pace.

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YESS, I CAN'T WAIT TO PLAY FM WITH YOUWU, UWOWU HEWWO!!! ALWAYS TOWNCORE TOGETHER. UWOWU, HEWWO!!!

and ur profile pic. it UFOFU HEFFO!!!!