Electro and Poisoner Considered Useless: Frinckles Manages to Ignore the Community Once Again

Frinckles has a WILDLY different game design philosophy than the previous devs. He continually rejects most community feedback that has wide support in favor of his own design philosophy.

Case and point: Night Immunity

Frinckles has gone on the record waxing about how he believes in player agency and that night immunity runs against that. His recent patch doesn't do nearly enough to fix it for poisoner and electro.

The issue is, he is adding roles without night immunity in a game with several roles with night immunity creating a huge disparity. The night immune roles have a massive advantage and no amount of tweaking the poisoner or electro, even a one night vest, is going to fix that. There is virtually NO WORLD where you can compensate for not having night immunity. We can do the math and run the numbers on the likelihood of a non NI NK to win compared to a NI NK, but I don't think we need to. It is fairly obvious.

The main save setups of the game, 8331 and 933, were designed with a NIGHT IMMUNE NIGHT KILLING in mind. That is not going to change, you just ruin and severely imbalance games by putting handicapped roles like electro and poisoner in the mix.

Frinckles has been given pages https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...Night-Immunity and pages https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...te-of-the-Game of feedback by plenty of community members who are much more graceful than I am. Yet he chooses to inflict his philosophy on us - a philosophy that WONT work unless the whole game is reworked, say by removing NI from everyone and making a 2 NK save the norm. Nobody wants that. He didn't even address the night immunity points raised by Guy, which I also pointed out. What do we get? A still stilted half baked role with a 1 night auto vest. It simply isn't enough to keep up with SK, MM, and Arson. HAVING NI IS MORE VALUABLE THAN ANYTHING LIKE PIERCING NI.

GIVE THEM NIGHT IMMUNITY.

I understand you may not have time to continue development. My criticism is having time to make radical changes and then walking away from the game for months at a time; for rushing half baked roles through and then neglecting them; and finally NOT EVEN PLAYING THE GAME IN ITS CURRENT STATE TO SEE HOW MISERABLE IT IS TO ROLL A USELESS ELECTRO OR POISONER.

QUANTITY IS NOT QUALITY.

It is not worth giving feedback to a developer who ignores it. I really don't care if people don't like my tone. Far friendlier tones have been used yet they get ignored.

My question is Frinckles:
Why the stubborness on night immunity? Don't you see how your new philosophy does not mesh well with how the game was structured?
Why the lack of transparency?
Why not poll and listen to the community?
Why isn't quality prioritized over quantity?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frinckles

if a player clicks the button next to your name and they are supposed to make you die, I think you should.

---

This is why I mean by the new philosophy. Frinckles believes in player agency, but not community feedback.

Quote:

---

Frinckles —
As far as NI goes. I guess people want me to make a major write up about it to see why I don't always jump for night immunity. Maybe I should, but in the meanwhile I think Poisoner definitely needed something to give him a little bit of a buff. (edited)

So the one-shot autovest should give him some more presence.

---

This total dictatorship is killing the game. It is all only about what Frinckles wants, and he doesn't believe in night immunity, so poisoner and electro you are screwed, despite the massive amount of community feedback on this issue.

yes! i agree and even heartbreaker isn't logic as mafia role...

Cry more & then host a save without new roles. DRINK CHEESE JUICE!

Until this issue is addressed, please join me and other reasonable players in 1.0 lobbies. See you there!

I don't know why you insist on throwing a fit on Friday night when I wanted to relax and drink a few beers. I listened to everything Guy wrote and decided that he's right about a lot of things but just to be clear that he knows that I'll go ahead and ping him here @Guy

Adjustments were made to Lover, Heartbreaker, Swinger, Poisoner and Electromaniac. Oracle will receive a slight buff next week in terms of how it interacts with being Sanitized, Caporegime will also get something to make it a bit better in a 3Mafia team. I don't agree with Guy's presumption that Party Host is underpowered because anyone who has been Mafia during a party knows how disruptive a party can be for coordination. As far as the Any Random balance problem goes, more roles will need to be released for Neutral Benign (and Neutral Evil) to balance it out; That means I need time to actually make them but I acknowledge it is a concern.

I also want to add that when I said "I suppose I play them differently" in regards to Heartbreaker/Swinger I should have elaborated. When I play Heartbreaker for example, I love somebody on night one and publicly claim that THEY were the one who loved me whilst claiming Doctor or something. Most of the time, doing so gives the town a 50/50 that I can usually win if they even choose to lynch there. I recognize that not all players want to present that kind of challenge each game and so I considered options to make the role a bit more flexible. In fact, let's go over what I patched last night.


-Lover, Heartbreaker, Swinger have no restriction on when they can target, why? As I said above, I agreed with you that sometimes it sucked having to be locked onto a slot on the first night. PQR actually messaged me last night echoing the same thoughts because it limited the ability for the roles to actually try to deduce the best target for their ability. While I hope it doesn't make it too easy to win as, Lover will now be able to survive easier and find a good candidate to target. Similarly, Heartbreaker and Swinger will be able to latch onto confirmable roles or Town Gov to hold them hostage. I will continue to monitor how they do with these changes and if it proves to be too much, I'll probably make them use it by night 3.

-Electromaniac can now charge two players as long as he did not electrocute anyone the prior night, why? Brock and Graky haven't been the only ones to bring up the fact that Electromaniac doesn't often get to make an impact in a game (gonna ping them too @Drizzt @Grakylan ) It simply takes too long to charge one person at a time and expect reasonable results so I let him charge two at the same time. You get Target A and Target B, and if you want to (idk why) you can actually just select Target A and the player will still get charged. That means a hypothetical 8 kill on night 4 which is in-line with some other neutral killing roles, the benefit being that if Godfather happens to be any of those unfortunate players, he gets toasted too. In fact, the way it is now, Electromaniac is possibly killing two players on the first night. The only thing stopping the EM from charging is whether or not one of his charges (specific to the EM) was involved in a kill the previous night, at which point you can still charge one person.

-Poisoner can now block one night of attacks automatically (autovest), why? You weren't the only person requesting some sort of buff to Poisoner. NI isn't the only thing that has been requested. I buffed it by taking away doctor heals, autopoison on roleblockers etc. and I agree, the role was still a bit too weak. So I listened and caved I guess and gave it some form of night immunity. Previously I had given Witch and Spy similar forms of NI but they didn't really work on those roles and I figured that it might actually work decently on Poisoner. Thus far, it's been pretty okay and depending on the circumstances, Poisoner is now on-par or slightly stronger than SK. But for all the shit you give me about apparently "not listening to Guy" you seem to have not read what he wrote:

Quote:

---

Poisoner and Electromancer are fun roles to play with, but in the setting of 8331/933, Poisoner and Electromancer DO NOT have the ability to win games by themselves in ways that SK/Arso/MM usually do, and this is because of the lack of immunity. As frinkies has stated, giving those roles immunity might actually make them too strong for the town to handle, which is understandable thanks to the Poisoners similarity to 'dousing' and nigh-unblockable kill.

---

You are teetering on the edge of stupid power creep cliff if you think night immunity is a solve-all for balance discrepancies. That's not how you balance a game. That's how you fuck up a game by making every role you concoct into a superman role that has to be lynched via the same player-base you talk shit about constantly. You will find yourself in more F3 Kingmaker situations because any other avenue of solving has been closed. They get to pick who wins now, why? Well not because of how well anyone played but just because they can. Why do you think Executioner does not have night immunity anymore? Why would you ever want to play Survivor over a night immune Exe?

And honestly, what the fuck are you so scared of? You said you'd run the numbers. Do it. In it's current state, Electromaniac has one concern on N1; Hopefully don't get killed by a Godfather on night 1. Guess what though? Electromaniac can also charge two people and then Godfather might go up in smoke anyway. So again, what are you afraid of? Do you think a Vigilante shouldn't be allowed to actually remove a player from the game by playing good -- that he's only able to take out his teammates by having shit reads? Like give me a break. And regardless of any of this you never mention the fact that Constable, Double Flower and Arsonist can erase anyone who is night immune during the day. You apparently have no problem with that.

I don't have a problem with Night Immunity. I made Armorsmith which is a role that literally fucking hands out night immunity. I've tried multiple occasions to see if night immunity worked on different roles. The difference is that in your mind it is a band-aid that you can slap on anything expecting good results and not thinking about the downsides. Sometimes you get killed on night one. Get over it and don't give me shit about it ruining the balance of the game because instead of a Godfather killing Poisoner or Electromaniac it could easily be a Jailor or Kidnapper who just so happened to pick right.

I've been communicating with this community since day one including you. We have a discord chat log of our talks that's pretty extensive where I asked you specifically what you thought about a lot of different things. I've even made change to the game at your request but I guess you forgot. I guess you also forgot about about how like 10 of us, including you, were in voice chat on discord talking balance and design. But you know what it's all good, I respect you and appreciate your opinions on balance even if it's accompanied by incessant bitching. Just don't try to start a shitstorm on my Friday night when I'm relaxing and having a beer and don't accuse me of not playing the fucking game I develop or being out of touch with it. If you don't see me playing I'm probably not on my main account because I don't want to be bothered.

I'll just disable all the new roles and host my own lobbies. If I get repicked then to echo the famous clan, CHOO CHOO. It's not worth playing useless broken roles.

I'm not going to run the numbers to reveal the obvious, because even if I did you wouldn't back down on your stubbornness to fix the broken roles

I have a lot of problems with some of the new roles, but I chose to focus on these two because it is the most blatant and glaring example of your "vision" just not working. Poll the community on it.

Please don't add more roles. Far too many were rushed through as it is.

I'd love to have a conversation about day kills. But why even try?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renegade

I'll just disable all the new roles and host my own lobbies. If I get repicked then to echo the famous clan, CHOO CHOO. It's not worth playing useless broken roles.

I'm not going to run the numbers to reveal the obvious, because even if I did you wouldn't back down on your stubbornness to fix the broken roles

I have a lot of problems with some of the new roles, but I chose to focus on these two because it is the most blatant and glaring example of your "vision" just not working. Poll the community on it.

Please don't add more roles. Far too many were rushed through as it is.

---

Nothing has stopped you or other players from disabling them before. I know Exeter disables some support roles so bringing that up is pointless.

You said we can do the math and run the numbers in your first post. Do it. You think in your world where Poisoner and EM have night immunity they won't be killed by a jailor? Is that just good luck? Okay then how about a kidnapper who has two teammates to reduce the pool? You don't want to run the numbers because you know your wrong.

You played like 3 games last night, one of which ironically had an Electromaniac jailed and killed n1. If only he had been night immune right?

Post what you don't like about other roles. Guy made a fantastic post about his thoughts on them and you just complained about lover and NI the whole time. I can't read your mind. Hell, tell me what you think about day kills. You can disable those too.

I like soup

All in all. Frinckles has done a good job. Remember, part of the process requires testing. Some things work, some do not. But what we can control in the meantime is our attitude. Frinckles is the only one in many years who is willing to work pro bono so we can continue. Be nice, be grateful. Ren your criticisms may be on point, but you need to work on delivery.

I DEMAND TO SEE A MANAGER

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frinckles

I don't know why you insist on throwing a fit on Friday night when I wanted to relax and drink a few beers. I listened to everything Guy wrote and decided that he's right about a lot of things but just to be clear that he knows that I'll go ahead and ping him here @Guy

Adjustments were made to Lover, Heartbreaker, Swinger, Poisoner and Electromaniac. Oracle will receive a slight buff next week in terms of how it interacts with being Sanitized, Caporegime will also get something to make it a bit better in a 3Mafia team. I don't agree with Guy's presumption that Party Host is underpowered because anyone who has been Mafia during a party knows how disruptive a party can be for coordination. As far as the Any Random balance problem goes, more roles will need to be released for Neutral Benign (and Neutral Evil) to balance it out; That means I need time to actually make them but I acknowledge it is a concern.

I also want to add that when I said "I suppose I play them differently" in regards to Heartbreaker/Swinger I should have elaborated. When I play Heartbreaker for example, I love somebody on night one and publicly claim that THEY were the one who loved me whilst claiming Doctor or something. Most of the time, doing so gives the town a 50/50 that I can usually win if they even choose to lynch there. I recognize that not all players want to present that kind of challenge each game and so I considered options to make the role a bit more flexible. In fact, let's go over what I patched last night.


-Lover, Heartbreaker, Swinger have no restriction on when they can target, why? As I said above, I agreed with you that sometimes it sucked having to be locked onto a slot on the first night. PQR actually messaged me last night echoing the same thoughts because it limited the ability for the roles to actually try to deduce the best target for their ability. While I hope it doesn't make it too easy to win as, Lover will now be able to survive easier and find a good candidate to target. Similarly, Heartbreaker and Swinger will be able to latch onto confirmable roles or Town Gov to hold them hostage. I will continue to monitor how they do with these changes and if it proves to be too much, I'll probably make them use it by night 3.

-Electromaniac can now charge two players as long as he did not electrocute anyone the prior night, why? Brock and Graky haven't been the only ones to bring up the fact that Electromaniac doesn't often get to make an impact in a game (gonna ping them too @Drizzt @Grakylan ) It simply takes too long to charge one person at a time and expect reasonable results so I let him charge two at the same time. You get Target A and Target B, and if you want to (idk why) you can actually just select Target A and the player will still get charged. That means a hypothetical 8 kill on night 4 which is in-line with some other neutral killing roles, the benefit being that if Godfather happens to be any of those unfortunate players, he gets toasted too. In fact, the way it is now, Electromaniac is possibly killing two players on the first night. The only thing stopping the EM from charging is whether or not one of his charges (specific to the EM) was involved in a kill the previous night, at which point you can still charge one person.

-Poisoner can now block one night of attacks automatically (autovest), why? You weren't the only person requesting some sort of buff to Poisoner. NI isn't the only thing that has been requested. I buffed it by taking away doctor heals, autopoison on roleblockers etc. and I agree, the role was still a bit too weak. So I listened and caved I guess and gave it some form of night immunity. Previously I had given Witch and Spy similar forms of NI but they didn't really work on those roles and I figured that it might actually work decently on Poisoner. Thus far, it's been pretty okay and depending on the circumstances, Poisoner is now on-par or slightly stronger than SK. But for all the shit you give me about apparently "not listening to Guy" you seem to have not read what he wrote:



You are teetering on the edge of stupid power creep cliff if you think night immunity is a solve-all for balance discrepancies. That's not how you balance a game. That's how you fuck up a game by making every role you concoct into a superman role that has to be lynched via the same player-base you talk shit about constantly. You will find yourself in more F3 Kingmaker situations because any other avenue of solving has been closed. They get to pick who wins now, why? Well not because of how well anyone played but just because they can. Why do you think Executioner does not have night immunity anymore? Why would you ever want to play Survivor over a night immune Exe?

And honestly, what the fuck are you so scared of? You said you'd run the numbers. Do it. In it's current state, Electromaniac has one concern on N1; Hopefully don't get killed by a Godfather on night 1. Guess what though? Electromaniac can also charge two people and then Godfather might go up in smoke anyway. So again, what are you afraid of? Do you think a Vigilante shouldn't be allowed to actually remove a player from the game by playing good -- that he's only able to take out his teammates by having shit reads? Like give me a break. And regardless of any of this you never mention the fact that Constable, Double Flower and Arsonist can erase anyone who is night immune during the day. You apparently have no problem with that.

I don't have a problem with Night Immunity. I made Armorsmith which is a role that literally fucking hands out night immunity. I've tried multiple occasions to see if night immunity worked on different roles. The difference is that in your mind it is a band-aid that you can slap on anything expecting good results and not thinking about the downsides. Sometimes you get killed on night one. Get over it and don't give me shit about it ruining the balance of the game because instead of a Godfather killing Poisoner or Electromaniac it could easily be a Jailor or Kidnapper who just so happened to pick right.

I've been communicating with this community since day one including you. We have a discord chat log of our talks that's pretty extensive where I asked you specifically what you thought about a lot of different things. I've even made change to the game at your request but I guess you forgot. I guess you also forgot about about how like 10 of us, including you, were in voice chat on discord talking balance and design. But you know what it's all good, I respect you and appreciate your opinions on balance even if it's accompanied by incessant bitching. Just don't try to start a shitstorm on my Friday night when I'm relaxing and having a beer and don't accuse me of not playing the fucking game I develop or being out of touch with it. If you don't see me playing I'm probably not on my main account because I don't want to be bothered.

---

I was pinged, so I shall comment. Electro has been greatly improved by allowing two charges. Some folks still use both to kill one person, but others are patient and it pays off by throwing off everyone's expected calculations on what can happen at any point in the game. Could Electro use a buff with night immunity? That is a tough one, played correctly they can kill NI targets, correct? Cause massive devastation, correct? Perhaps making Electro NI to any target he charges would be a compromise? Or, giving electros more immunity to investigative roles might help, if you do not want NI Frink.

Poisoner - This fudging role I have seen alter games that were objectively going one way at day 4 then suddenly in the span of two days that faction is crippled and losing. IMO, making it NI would be a mistake simply because it partners with no one, and can kill anything with a pulse in the town. Could it use some other minor buff to make it more elusive to investigators or a vest or something, yes. It is a hard role to win, but that doesn't mean it doesn't rock the shit out of factions and pose a threat to the balance of power.

Renegade, you might be onto something with NI with electro or perhaps a minor buff would be more appropriate. But with poisoner, I simply disagree with NI. I think a buff is in order to help it win, but that should be the starting point to see how the change works out.

First off, I would like to say thank you to Frinkles for his work in updating this game, overall they have added some spice to the game and I have some suggestions to make it more balanced and some glaring flaws in the current design of the roles and balance of the game.
In my opinion, the electro should be able to either have an option to take one hit like the poisoner, or have an option to make it detection immune. The role just needs something right now. Its very hard to win when one of 3 mafia can just shoot you at any point they choose and you have no teammates. Being able to take a hit as the poisoner is nice, but comparing it to roles like an arson which is now actually nearly on par with mafia if it has strongest settings or the sk, it becomes obvious the electro definitely needs a buff and poisoner probably needs at least a slight one still. The goal of the game is to win so roles should have at least somewhat similar win rates, especially if it is for the same role type. Teams with more players should have a higher winrate in my opinion, but the disparity should not be as big as it is. For example the mafia should not be winning 3 times as much as the neutral killing, but if it is an electro the disparity is probably even bigger than that.

The neutral roles win rates really just feel out of whack. For example the lover just feels bad, like really bad compared to amne or survivor. I could be a lover which has to survive itself as well as its true love, or I could just be survivor who only has to survive itself and even gets vests. Or instead of being lover I could be amne and just become confirmed town after announcing my role before the game reveals it (or just become a role that is easily verifiable if this setting is off) alternatively I could just join the mafia. Now, I don't immediately lose if one of two people die in the game. In fact, I would now be on a team and could win even if I die. My chances of winning are very high if I just join whatever team was in the lead thereby increasing that team's advantage even further by being another confirmed (if town) member of that team. The lover is easily the worst neutral benign role in the entire game, the tooltip is very misleading as well. It says on "any night you choose" when in reality, you must choose somebody to love by night 3 or you automatically lose the game (unless you get culted or audited and win that way I suppose). The role definitely needs something to force you to choose by night 3 if the tooltip is going to straight up lie about what you can do. It should also force you to love your jailor/kidnapper if they jail you night 3 as that could also be an instant loss if you save your ability for night 3. As far as buffs go the lover should be able to heal its love every night in the game. Tbh it probably needs more to make it on par with survivor/amne but at least this would help.

Another glaring issue is how bad the winrates are for the neutral evils. The witch and auditor are the biggest victims. They are an evil role with no teammates meaning if they die or get voted off they lose, they also have virtually no survivability with the auditor having literally no survivability, at least the witch can control killings/heals to help themselves if they figure roles out. They are also completely dependent on the killing roles and have no means of doing so themselves. The evil roles actually all have fairly strong powers, but since they are so vulnerable and are dependent on other evils to do anything they are very weak roles. The cult and maybe the witchdoctor are the only evils that feels balanced in terms of its own winrate as it can make teammates so it won't auto lose if it dies. The judge feels almost up to par just because of its very strong power but like the auditor you are completely at the mercy and goodwill of the evil roles and will lose if anything at all kills you/betrays you.

Like seriously the witch and especially auditor are just so laughably bad winrate wise I'm surprised they haven't been given huge buffs. Let's look at all the auditor must accomplish almost all of which is out of their hands in order to win: they must avoid detection from the town lest they be lynched, easier said than done considering they can be caught by any town investigative role since they have corruption and people know they are audited except for the sheriff and to some degree the coroner, they must survive which is very hard as they have no survivability whatsoever and do not have any easy role fake claims that look suspicious unlike some evils such as kidnapper or consort so are likely to be lynched or killed by town killing roles, they must hope the other evil roles do well otherwise winning becomes almost impossible as they are unable to kill at night, finally (and tbh there is probably some bs against them I'm forgetting) they must hope the evils actually decide to let them win with them. It is shocking how over a third of the evils I play with decide to just kill me as (or even other auditors) the auditor after I did everything in my power to hand them the game on a silver platter and despite their mediocre gameplay and getting carried they just kill me and say lol at the end.

I would recommend at least one if not two of these buffs to the witch and auditor as the judge is probably fine (at least for now). Buff option one-give the auditor and witch a single attack block similar to the poisoner's. This would greatly help their survivability which is one of their biggest problems. Buff option two-let the auditor and witch become the deceased neutral killing's role if no evil killing roles are left in the game as well as no cult, also if they win it should still show as the witch/auditor wins so those achievements/win screens do not become impossible, alternatively you could just let them kill one person a night in place of their power but remain witch/auditor should there be no evil killing roles left. This would reduce their complete dependency on the killing evil roles in the game and would really help balance the roles. Buff option three-the witch and auditor can win with the neutral killing roles from beyond the grave and vice versa, the stipulation being that the auditor or witch must get their win screen shown for the neutral killing role to win from beyond the grave with the witch. This also should only go in effect if only one neutral killing role is in the game. This would help fix the problem with the discrepancies with the neutral evil and killing role's win rates being so low compared to other roles. There would be more to figure out with these new settings should they be implemented that I am not thinking of for example: what if an amne becomes the neutral killing, should the witch/auditor still be able to kill roles at night even though there is a killing role now?

Anyhow thanks for reading this long winded post and if you don't like these ideas that is perfectly ok. I know you already tried the witch night immunity thing and it didn't work but an attack block would be more in line with the role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by minnorobot

Spoiler : minno reply :

First off, I would like to say thank you to Frinkles for his work in updating this game, overall they have added some spice to the game and I have some suggestions to make it more balanced and some glaring flaws in the current design of the roles and balance of the game.
In my opinion, the electro should be able to either have an option to take one hit like the poisoner, or have an option to make it detection immune. The role just needs something right now. Its very hard to win when one of 3 mafia can just shoot you at any point they choose and you have no teammates. Being able to take a hit as the poisoner is nice, but comparing it to roles like an arson which is now actually nearly on par with mafia if it has strongest settings or the sk, it becomes obvious the electro definitely needs a buff and poisoner probably needs at least a slight one still. The goal of the game is to win so roles should have at least somewhat similar win rates, especially if it is for the same role type. Teams with more players should have a higher winrate in my opinion, but the disparity should not be as big as it is. For example the mafia should not be winning 3 times as much as the neutral killing, but if it is an electro the disparity is probably even bigger than that.

The neutral roles win rates really just feel out of whack. For example the lover just feels bad, like really bad compared to amne or survivor. I could be a lover which has to survive itself as well as its true love, or I could just be survivor who only has to survive itself and even gets vests. Or instead of being lover I could be amne and just become confirmed town after announcing my role before the game reveals it (or just become a role that is easily verifiable if this setting is off) alternatively I could just join the mafia. Now, I don't immediately lose if one of two people die in the game. In fact, I would now be on a team and could win even if I die. My chances of winning are very high if I just join whatever team was in the lead thereby increasing that team's advantage even further by being another confirmed (if town) member of that team. The lover is easily the worst neutral benign role in the entire game, the tooltip is very misleading as well. It says on "any night you choose" when in reality, you must choose somebody to love by night 3 or you automatically lose the game (unless you get culted or audited and win that way I suppose). The role definitely needs something to force you to choose by night 3 if the tooltip is going to straight up lie about what you can do. It should also force you to love your jailor/kidnapper if they jail you night 3 as that could also be an instant loss if you save your ability for night 3. As far as buffs go the lover should be able to heal its love every night in the game. Tbh it probably needs more to make it on par with survivor/amne but at least this would help.

Another glaring issue is how bad the winrates are for the neutral evils. The witch and auditor are the biggest victims. They are an evil role with no teammates meaning if they die or get voted off they lose, they also have virtually no survivability with the auditor having literally no survivability, at least the witch can control killings/heals to help themselves if they figure roles out. They are also completely dependent on the killing roles and have no means of doing so themselves. The evil roles actually all have fairly strong powers, but since they are so vulnerable and are dependent on other evils to do anything they are very weak roles. The cult and maybe the witchdoctor are the only evils that feels balanced in terms of its own winrate as it can make teammates so it won't auto lose if it dies. The judge feels almost up to par just because of its very strong power but like the auditor you are completely at the mercy and goodwill of the evil roles and will lose if anything at all kills you/betrays you.

Like seriously the witch and especially auditor are just so laughably bad winrate wise I'm surprised they haven't been given huge buffs. Let's look at all the auditor must accomplish almost all of which is out of their hands in order to win: they must avoid detection from the town lest they be lynched, easier said than done considering they can be caught by any town investigative role since they have corruption and people know they are audited except for the sheriff and to some degree the coroner, they must survive which is very hard as they have no survivability whatsoever and do not have any easy role fake claims that look suspicious unlike some evils such as kidnapper or consort so are likely to be lynched or killed by town killing roles, they must hope the other evil roles do well otherwise winning becomes almost impossible as they are unable to kill at night, finally (and tbh there is probably some bs against them I'm forgetting) they must hope the evils actually decide to let them win with them. It is shocking how over a third of the evils I play with decide to just kill me as (or even other auditors) the auditor after I did everything in my power to hand them the game on a silver platter and despite their mediocre gameplay and getting carried they just kill me and say lol at the end.

I would recommend at least one if not two of these buffs to the witch and auditor as the judge is probably fine (at least for now). Buff option one-give the auditor and witch a single attack block similar to the poisoner's. This would greatly help their survivability which is one of their biggest problems. Buff option two-let the auditor and witch become the deceased neutral killing's role if no evil killing roles are left in the game as well as no cult, also if they win it should still show as the witch/auditor wins so those achievements/win screens do not become impossible, alternatively you could just let them kill one person a night in place of their power but remain witch/auditor should there be no evil killing roles left. This would reduce their complete dependency on the killing evil roles in the game and would really help balance the roles. Buff option three-the witch and auditor can win with the neutral killing roles from beyond the grave and vice versa, the stipulation being that the auditor or witch must get their win screen shown for the neutral killing role to win from beyond the grave with the witch. This also should only go in effect if only one neutral killing role is in the game. This would help fix the problem with the discrepancies with the neutral evil and killing role's win rates being so low compared to other roles. There would be more to figure out with these new settings should they be implemented that I am not thinking of for example: what if an amne becomes the neutral killing, should the witch/auditor still be able to kill roles at night even though there is a killing role now?

Anyhow thanks for reading this long winded post and if you don't like these ideas that is perfectly ok. I know you already tried the witch night immunity thing and it didn't work but an attack block would be more in line with the role.

---

Great feedback, thank you for contributing. Unfortunately, based on Frinckle's design philosophy, I doubt he will be interested in giving more roles night protection/ one shot auto vests. He believes that if someone with the ability to kill wants to kill you, that you should die. Unfortunately, this new philosophy does not mesh well with the long established meta around saves and neutral killing being NI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renegade

Great feedback, thank you for contributing. Unfortunately, based on Frinckle's design philosophy, I doubt he will be interested in giving more roles night protection/ one shot auto vests. He believes that if someone with the ability to kill wants to kill you, that you should die. Unfortunately, this new philosophy does not mesh well with the long established meta around saves and neutral killing being NI.

---

renegayde

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renegade

Great feedback, thank you for contributing. Unfortunately, based on Frinckle's design philosophy, I doubt he will be interested in giving more roles night protection/ one shot auto vests. He believes that if someone with the ability to kill wants to kill you, that you should die. Unfortunately, this new philosophy does not mesh well with the long established meta around saves and neutral killing being NI.

---

i heard this frinckles guy was a fan of hitler's economic policies

When I was once a very active player of SC2 Mafia I can say the game had its issues but was for the most part, pretty decently balanced. Now having played very infrequently and actually having returned from a 6 or 7 month hiatus and still running into the same issues that plagued it pre 2.0 And that Electromaniac and Poisoner are still just awful roles.

This thread is pretty relevant still. I'm surprised that a few people beforehand did not take it seriously.