S-FM 305: Spirits II (Ladder Game)

Spoiler : Bakermir wall post :

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakermir

I have been hyperactive and this can be exhausting for readers so I am really sorry for all of that.

From my POV, I felt like this would be ok approach to D1. I am trying my best to contribute for town. This is a long game though so I hope people will read my posts down in the line and see this spotlight I am being put in to. It is horrible to be me right now thanks to scum team I have been alienated from everyone.

I will keep everything in one post. I won't be voting until it is very late or maybe not vote at all depending on how scum are voting. If there is nothing interesting then I will be probably placing my vote on Martin/Frinckles or Victor if we change our mind to lynching this slot.


Town:

Renegade
Bystander to D1. He invested considerable effort on observing the details about me and Mike. This makes me believe he is town. His other posts were also quite town indicative except his exchanges with Zedus which I am not sure what is the purpose behind. I still want to believe he was genuine when he said we shouldn't scumtunnel by describing Zedus' playstyle to be "bombastic". This was constructive, at least for me so I will take that positive too.

Mike
In general, I like the game he started. But I also felt like somebody had to start a debate and point out what could be troubling for town on the long run. I have felt that he is either town or Alpha Wolf. The way he placed himself in this game fits the most desirable Alpha Wolf play. However, it is still D1 and all I wanted to make sure with Mike is that my eyes would be on him and I expect no less in return, he will be keeping an eye on me. With MM's intervention we have discovered more about each other and came to consensus that attacking each other is not helpful for town. We needed to look at others and not be stuck in status quo because thats what scum team would want. Leaving my speculations behind, I have no choice but put him in my D1 town reads.

Varcron
Similar game like Renegade. I don't see any harm yet from this slot. They haven't taken a clear stance most of the time and have been a bystander. Still did put effort on trying to understand what is going on and evaluate people. He has been objective and fair just like Renegade and opposite of what Frinckles/Martin doing. That gives me town vibes so he is TR.

MM
Normally I would assume this to be scum buddying me but I think no scum would go this far to provide point by point analysis and he did actually worked on reading me and not just Mike. He does question me not only Mike. However, his input and suggestions, his active involvement on stage have been very constructive and progressive. I believe he is town. One problem, his first vote on Mike and now voting DM indirectly puts me in a horrible spot. It looks bad and I don't know what to do about it but voice it.


Town lean:

Mesk
Another bystander. Less invested into the game than Renegade, Auwt and Varcron. That's a bit hmmmmmm but can't blame them. I wanted to know more about them. In general they haven't tried to manipulate anyone so I give them that plus they haven't taken a stance either. Fully neutral and I don't know why would they have no questions for anyone. Maybe they will provide reads soon. Oh, I am not sure what was that exchange between MM and I hope it has nothing to do with this game. If it is, please can someone who knows both mesk and MM to look into it? It is confusing to me. Town lean here.


Auwt
Have been a bystander but did invest time and effort trying to understand all parties, be it zedus, DM, mike, me. However, I feel like there is something off with Auwt but then they mentioned their disappointment in what happened last game so I believe he is town lean here with their stance. I just hope I can earn their trust because they know me more than anyone here thanks to sc2 mod. What sc2mod bakermir do you see Auwt? I have been a terrible liar last game I admit. I have lied to your face there and I never said sorry after the game. It was dirty of me. However you see in that game I wasn't this much aggressive. This game is more in line with my first game. I have tried my best to distinct the two bakermir's from past two games because of my current wincon which is the exactly same as my first game with you on FM. Also it would help people who read my past two games to understand I am playing according to my rolecard. I am not white mage as Mike puts it. That's why we collided because I cc'd him in a certain way and wanted to see the game from his perspective. I did my best to overcome my paranoia here. Anyway, this is about you Auwt. I don't like how you are not taking a clear stance up until this point and it looks suspicious to me. You are also subtly pushing me off which indicates I am not that important to you and that you would be ok with voting me today. I just hope you are town and you can see in to me. Your reserved approach makes me double think your alignment at this point. I don't believe town Auwt would just tunnel but consider all possibilities. Town lean for Auwt.


Zedus
I have done a lot of exchanges with this slot. I still believe something is off with them but I am still unsure about the nature of things behind. He did the right thing by stepping back and that makes him townlean for me. If he wants to go after Dark Magician or me at any point, I don't mind. I was only afraid he might have been a scum because of his "Bombastic" approach pointed out by Ren. He is as town as he can ever get. The weird part about him is his exchanges with others but mostly Martin. IF DM and I flip town today/tomorrow then this would be a slot everyone should look at. Zedus paired us. I am not sure about DM but I can assure you I will flip town and will disappoint everyone.

Null:

Victor
No posts, no participation. We don't know anything and I believe we won't know anything even with a replacement. I think this slot shouldn't be ignored. I recommend this slot to be lynched or taken a very close look at tomorrow once the replacement is done. I can assure we are going to have a lot of headaches from this one.

Scum lean:

Frinckles
He was townread for me most of the time. I understand where he is coming from and his passive stance as a bystander was justified. In contrast to that, his focus on me isn't justified. He given no reads, no questions, nothing. Just said "bakermir pinged me twice so i vote him" and disappeared. I thought they would have cancel it after some point and actually participate in the game. Sadly nothing happened. If he doesn't cancel his vote by EOD1 or I am lynched then I believe he is one of the scum. I will explain the math on this later. He is scumlean for me right now and depending on their EOD1 and D2 input he will be placed in either scum or town. He is Null to Scumlean lean. One of the people I would vote today.


DM
Tried to brave the storm in the beginning. He had a nice counter point to Martin's tpr claim but what he did wrong was to paint a target on Martin's head. This is not good for town. He should have kept this to himself. Once multiple people started to question his motives he pulled back and played an opposite of the game he was playing before. So I still believe this was a town reflex coming from him. For a long time I felt like DM was only trying to figure out alignment of people not roles. This is why I was reading him town but now after Martin's weird push on me he surfaced back and considering me suspicious. Wagon escape? What happened to the exchanges between DM and Martin early game? Was it only bussing? I don't know what to make of them. This is very inconsistent of them. I still think this slot needs to live another day just like how most of us should in that sense. Oh and inb4 he votes me today because I already have 2 votes and he is potentially consig or enforcer/virus or wants to save himself. I want to believe he is town deep down there and I hope he proves me that later. Now, I initially wanted to defend him seeing I kinda liked his effort on alignment hunt of Martin, this was seen differently by everyone else. I have to admit I have no idea about DM's alignment and if I defended him today and he flips scum, I would be big suspect and cause a mislynch on me. This is a fair point, we don't know his alignment because he shown very little town indication and more scum indication. This essentially made me look scum but I can see everyone's point here. I shouldn't blindly trust this type of gameplay, a mistake I have done in my first game. A lot of questions in this slot so I am putting them on scumlean for now.


Martin

Started the game with D2 claim. Indicated that he is not willing to share much on D1. This is understandable. He was confronted by DM on a fair point but the approach was indeed scummy by DM simply because DM have conditioned Martin way early on. I still believed I had no reason to trust either Martin or DM after this. People in general recognized this behavior of DM to be scum and now he is getting voted. What if this was bussing? Why do we just throw away all possibilities?

Especially Martin. I believe you are capable of doing more than this. I still don't understand why would you push me like this. I have no debt to MM or DM and I don't understand this scum team claim of yours. You on the other hand placed yourself in a spot where you can claim anything tomorrow. Assuming you are not scum then I still don't understand why would you vote me as I have posed no threat to your indications and claims.

This position you have now is really opportunistic Martin. This is where I stop seeing you as town but scum and this is why I agree with DM on why you could end up being a liar. All because you have been voting me. This is the PROOF you are scum. You could have voted DM, who actually tried to expose you but instead you vote me for BS. It feels like there is something off with your reads with certain people. Mainly Zedus and DM. I have a feeling you have bussed with one and later on one of you will be sacrificed and other one will get full towncred then win the game for mafia. When I look at Martin's slot, things he have said and the position he takes only indicates he is most probably trying to get on the good side of everyone but still having some doors open. He is literally fencesitting here with Zedus and essentially his read on DM contradicts his other posts.

Either way, this guy now thinks I am a threat and wants me out. If he doesn't remove his vote then he is legit scum.

Martin avoided me as both of us were online together for a long time. His game changed suddenly when I was missing for good 10+ hours he used this time to make propaganda against me after Frinckles shot a fire.

Any town with an ounce of brain wouldn't follow this train.


A wolf voting a sheep.

THIS IS NOT JUSTIFIED.

You can't expect doctor to heal you after all of this. What is your game Martin? You are reeking wolf here and a very scum one. You are at the bottom of my list too because you have NOTHING against me. This is all fake. A true townie TPR wouldn't vote me like this and be active in propaganda. So DM is right and if you ever claim TPR at any point you will be a liar. You have shown colours and you have only one chance to correct this Martin. Take your vote back and lets reassess this situation. You vote me = you will help DM or scumteam form a case against you. So this vote of yours is only indicates you are a scum or a townie digging his grave. I believe you will show reasoning here and understand your mistake. Until then, you are scum for me. Also sorry for this read on you, it turned into more of a personal rant than actual read but you gotta understand your slot is really frustrating and I don't want to put you in a horrible position if you ever somehow turn out to be town. But yeah, this is what you wanted I guess. I stand firm you are guilty until proven otherwise.



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Anyway, this is my train of thought and analysis of D1 in general;

Everyone agrees that scum will start a vote on someone for D1. It would be impossible for all 4 scums to hammer as it would be too revealing. One or two of them will leave a vote and rest will follow at some point. They will do their best to avoid suspicion for tomorrow. Heck maybe the later votes from scum team might not even happen(especially with virus) if town is trapped. I feel like this push on me by Frinckles and Martin doesn't feel right and rest of town is being pulled into this trap.

I believe in the following math for D1 based on my reads.

By excluding the 50/50 scenarios I get the following;

Virus will be passive on D1. This slot may end up voting last or maybe not vote at all.

At least 1 scum will be passive on D1 and have a similar play with virus during the day. this scum will be enforcer.

At least 1 scum will carry the flag on D1 via votes or posts. this leader is either godfather or consig.

I suspect vigilante's to TPR hunt but subtly.

I suspect sheriffs to act like citizens and consig to act like wolf.

Detective, Doctor and Citizens are going to be a lot of WIFOM and this is where I suspect enforcer and virus to hide.




Also everyone, please refer to my post #266 as it was clear indication on how I felt about the DM and Martin exchange also I've hinted at a possible scum attack on me later on D1 with this certain poem.



If @Martin and @Frinckles doesn't remove their vote from me, they should be put under spotlight as soon as possible and therefore people should consider my vote on one of them for today. Not much time left anyway. I will be here all day for discussion with anyone if people want anything from me.

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Spoiler : My direct answer :

Wow that a huge post.
I have to give you credits for that, as it seems to be a really fed content.
I'm having quite several issues to take a definitive stance, I'm fairly opposed to befriend early on.
When the vote and the night will be over, if I'm still alive I will try my best to give my trust to some of you.

During the previous game, you played to your wincondition, and you saw I was "ready to not oppose you at least". You managed to bring a great win to the scumside.
I keep no grudges, as you played the game in a great way ! : )

Considering the sc2 mod, I tend to see a bakermir that is usually quite passive in the early game with the famous "uwu" nick.
When thing spice up, at least you take part in the discussion, which I feels is important (whatever alignment you are).

Spoiler : Reaction toward leans and locked :

I agree for Mike. I still do not know if I should put him in town or virus box
I do not agree that much for Renegade. He has been put in several town lock, I didnt read anything that would make him very townie so far.
Same goes for Varcron.
I overall agree for MM, but I do not exclude the possibility of you two being together.

By the way between MM and bakermir, who did vote first Mike?

Considering Mesk, Frinckles, I cannot know what they are thinking about or planning. They are really mysterious to me.
Zedus is acting like his usual town game, but i keep being distrustful with his play sometimes. Then again we haven't seen any scum!Zedus ever so far, could be just playing the same way

Victor and Thaiax, somehow unreadable
I feel like Dark Magician is trying to paint Martin as a Citizen/Mafia/Virus, and then if Martin would ever claim TPR, Dark Magician will just start voting Martin based on that.
I want to see more interactions between those 2, to make sure this actual mindset is right or not.
About Martin, I just overall do not believe his vote is supported by strong arguments.

Hope this can help to make you see a little bit more in my mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thaiax

Hey team. I'll be honest with y'all.
A ton of the "reads" I'm seeing I simply can't follow the logic. If somebody is quiet how does that make them any more likely to be scum? And how can you POSSIBLY lynch on Day 1?
The above is also the reason for my "inactivity". I'm reading, just feel I have nothing to add (because I think, frankly, everything being said is baseless)

Also mike claimed VT, not martin. I misremembered.

As a direct result I'll let a replacement take over for me; It's not that I don't want to play mafia, it's that this way of playing makes absolutely no sense to me. If you're enjoying yourselves then great. Have a good one, team.

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Nobody called you scum.

For me you are on null to slight scum lean simply because your first post indicated you will be following a train and second post had false information.


It is okay with taking a passive stance and seeing you are reading the game. Being new here, you are already given a lot of room for mistakes by anyone I am quite sure. So be brave and don't feel this way imo

Just play the game and throw yourself out there and see how it feels. I mean what you do is nothing wrong either since you didn't really manipulate anyone or pushed some agenda. So that makes you look less evil than let's say someone like Frinckles, who I believe contributed less than you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark Magician

For now? If EoD is today why didn’t you vote me sooner?
Anywho I still have this Martin/Zedus Scum Team theory and I hope I’m right about it.

-vote Martin

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You need to vote his full name for the bot to pick it up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall

Still waiting on your conclusions there @Renegade : you brought up a good point about Mike and an... arguable point about Zedus, but didn't finish your reasoning. What does their behaviors mean to you alignment-wise?

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I think Mike was acting hysterical and defensive. My overall read on him is slight town lean. That doesn't make the other side of the coin scum though. It seems to me to be a TvT scenario.

I don't have enough time (before EOD) to fully back this up but I believe bakemir's side of Bakemir/MartinGG9. But we need a majority to lynch and most people seem afk so its probably either DM or no lynch. DM has been acting strange enough to garner a vote from me.

-vote Dark Magician

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Auwt

Spoiler : Bakermir wall post :

Spoiler : My direct answer :

Wow that a huge post.
I have to give you credits for that, as it seems to be a really fed content.
I'm having quite several issues to take a definitive stance, I'm fairly opposed to befriend early on.
When the vote and the night will be over, if I'm still alive I will try my best to give my trust to some of you.

During the previous game, you played to your wincondition, and you saw I was "ready to not oppose you at least". You managed to bring a great win to the scumside.
I keep no grudges, as you played the game in a great way ! : )

Considering the sc2 mod, I tend to see a bakermir that is usually quite passive in the early game with the famous "uwu" nick.
When thing spice up, at least you take part in the discussion, which I feels is important (whatever alignment you are).

Spoiler : Reaction toward leans and locked :

I agree for Mike. I still do not know if I should put him in town or virus box
I do not agree that much for Renegade. He has been put in several town lock, I didnt read anything that would make him very townie so far.
Same goes for Varcron.
I overall agree for MM, but I do not exclude the possibility of you two being together.

By the way between MM and bakermir, who did vote first Mike?

Considering Mesk, Frinckles, I cannot know what they are thinking about or planning. They are really mysterious to me.
Zedus is acting like his usual town game, but i keep being distrustful with his play sometimes. Then again we haven't seen any scum!Zedus ever so far, could be just playing the same way

Victor and Thaiax, somehow unreadable
I feel like Dark Magician is trying to paint Martin as a Citizen/Mafia/Virus, and then if Martin would ever claim TPR, Dark Magician will just start voting Martin based on that.
I want to see more interactions between those 2, to make sure this actual mindset is right or not.
About Martin, I just overall do not believe his vote is supported by strong arguments.

Hope this can help to make you see a little bit more in my mind.

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Renegade and Varcron played a similar game like you. I don't see why wouldn't you TR them. Well, ok Ren did defend Zedus by claiming Zedus can't play town better than that and we should take him for granted. Thats like the only negative I can find in Ren.


I did vote Mike first. This is why I am seen as a scum by people like Zedus. Only two people I voted so far were Mike and Zedus. I have no idea how Martin gets all these ideas about me xD

But anyway, thank you for reading it. I did put a lot of effort in there and tried my best to not expose people who put effort in D1. Except for Frinckles. I don't like what he started lol

I have been reading the posts I took a step back just to evaluate. I have to admit this set of players have made this game a lot more enjoyable that the old sc2 mafia games.

Bad part of that making it a lot harder to find scum.

We do need to vote but we need to be smart about it. We have to consider also who’s flip would give town the most info. Do to integrations with the people they interacted with. We are the majority with the least amount of info. So we need to do our day 1 lynch smart. 2 picks up there. Who’s flip would give town the most info if flipped.

In my eyes it would be bakermir. His interactions his reads his pushes. Plus day 2 I will explain why I do not want DM lynched today. I have asked that we give DM a day 1 pass.what bothers me about MM is why he did not catch what I caught and is asking for DM to be given a day 1 pass. Sometime players will soft things .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakermir

Renegade and Varcron played a similar game like you. I don't see why wouldn't you TR them. Well, ok Ren did defend Zedus by claiming Zedus can't play town better than that and we should take him for granted. Thats like the only negative I can find in Ren.


I did vote Mike first. This is why I am seen as a scum by people like Zedus. Only two people I voted so far were Mike and Zedus. I have no idea how Martin gets all these ideas about me xD

But anyway, thank you for reading it. I did put a lot of effort in there and tried my best to not expose people who put effort in D1. Except for Frinckles. I don't like what he started lol

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Ok backer if you are town. Please give us you legacy reads info things that we can use with your flip. If you are scum we will ignor what you post. If you are town we can use that.

DM same goes for you.

People we don’t know if we are lynching a scum or town day 1. But let’s not waist a lynch and. Just have a pissing battle just to live. Give us real info. This setup flips roles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark Magician

For now? If EoD is today why didn’t you vote me sooner?
Anywho I still have this Martin/Zedus Scum Team theory and I hope I’m right about it.

-vote Martin

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I meant that unless you manage to change my mind or at least a better target, my vote will stay on you.
Usually I am not voting quite early.
Considering the lynch type being majority, I just want to make sure that the scummiest to my eyes will be voted off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike

Ok backer if you are town. Please give us you legacy reads info things that we can use with your flip. If you are scum we will ignor what you post. If you are town we can use that.

DM same goes for you.

People we don’t know if we are lynching a scum or town day 1. But let’s not waist a lynch and. Just have a pissing battle just to live. Give us real info. This setup flips roles.

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I am confused by this. What are you asking exactly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakermir

I am confused by this. What are you asking exactly?

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Because I think you both are town. Is why I have not voted yet. But if one of you die your reads we know are real if you flip town. But I would like you lynched you over DM just because I read him telling town it would be a mistake to read into him more would harm town as a soft. If he had not posted that I would be voting him. Now I can be wrong.

Also your flip would give more info to town because of your interactions with other people in game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike

Because I think you both are town. Is why I have not voted yet. But if one of you die your reads we know are real if you flip town. But I would like you lynched you over DM just because I read him telling town it would be a mistake to read into him more would harm town as a soft. If he had not posted that I would be voting him. Now I can be wrong.

Also your flip would give more info to town because of your interactions with other people in game.

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I just provided full reads on post #390. I did my best to not reveal my guesses on roles and also not put anyone in scum roles.


But I think you already know what I think about you. If I am lynched now or die at N1, you will be one of the biggest suspects. I am not sure if this indicates a setup by mafia or you are scum.

I would like to believe you are town too.

I will reveal another thing; I guess DM is the hunter and thats like the only town explanation I can give for his play. At the same time, his vote on Martin now looks really weird so idk if he flip scum I will not change my mind on DM and Martin bussing each other.


Am I the only one seeing this? I mean Martin have been exposed by someone else badly and Martin is not much bothered by it.

There is no reason to vote me today and I refuse to take the DM vs Bakermir choice. it doesn't feel right at all that I am being used like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakermir

I just provided full reads on post #390. I did my best to not reveal my guesses on roles and also not put anyone in scum roles.


But I think you already know what I think about you. If I am lynched now or die at N1, you will be one of the biggest suspects. I am not sure if this indicates a setup by mafia or you are scum.

I would like to believe you are town too.

I will reveal another thing; I guess DM is the hunter and thats like the only town explanation I can give for his play. At the same time, his vote on Martin now looks really weird so idk if he flip scum I will not change my mind on DM and Martin bussing each other.


Am I the only one seeing this? I mean Martin have been exposed by someone else badly and Martin is not much bothered by it.

There is no reason to vote me today and I refuse to take the DM vs Bakermir choice. it doesn't feel right at all that I am being used like this.

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You are seeing what I am seeing.

-vote martin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakermir

I just provided full reads on post #390. I did my best to not reveal my guesses on roles and also not put anyone in scum roles.


But I think you already know what I think about you. If I am lynched now or die at N1, you will be one of the biggest suspects. I am not sure if this indicates a setup by mafia or you are scum.

I would like to believe you are town too.

I will reveal another thing; I guess DM is the hunter and thats like the only town explanation I can give for his play. At the same time, his vote on Martin now looks really weird so idk if he flip scum I will not change my mind on DM and Martin bussing each other.


Am I the only one seeing this? I mean Martin have been exposed by someone else badly and Martin is not much bothered by it.

There is no reason to vote me today and I refuse to take the DM vs Bakermir choice. it doesn't feel right at all that I am being used like this.

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I believe Martin isnt aware of DM's vote yet.

There are two votes on Martin and I would consider being a third but you people are voting his name correctly.

MartinGG99 not Martin.

Also I doubt we will have a majority be EOD anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renegade

There are two votes on Martin and I would consider being a third but you people NOT are voting his name correctly.

MartinGG99 not Martin.

Also I doubt we will have a majority be EOD anyway.

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Whoops forgot "not" there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renegade

There are two votes on Martin and I would consider being a third but you people are voting his name correctly.

MartinGG99 not Martin.

Also I doubt we will have a majority be EOD anyway.

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-vote MartinGG99

..

I am busy with my job, but I see what's happening here with one eye.
Notice, that there is no player with name "Martin" in game, so your votes not accepted by bot counter. His name is MartinG99.
I hope Marting will appear here to say something.
My vote stays the same. The strange thing for me is the difference between Barkermir and Dark Magician's reaction on votes.

Barkermir active with protecting himself and give town a lot of his conclusions in the case he will be lynched or maybe killed n1.
DM playing "I don't care" card. Maybe that's the kind of defence, like in MOD (lynch me, noobs, I don't care), but mafia can use this too. More likely to me that he just wants to give as less info as possible for town.

Maybe this is the key of my "feeling" to not vote Barkermir. Sorry, I cannot read with greater attention because of job.

Also
1. If player dies, we will see his alignment, not the role, if I got it correct. So I ask every honored town to form up lw with his role. We should know, do we lost cit or tpr to count roles.
2. @AIVION must we create LW now? Or we can do this during next 24 hours of game night? And how can we send it, need pm-ing to you?

typo again :( MartingGG99
and one more question for @AIVION , can we have some visible timer like in previous game? I live in another timezone, also we using in Russia the time format you calling "military time", so it's realy hard for me to get how much time we realy have with all this AM/PM things and timezone differences.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zedus

typo again :( MartingGG99
and one more question for @AIVION , can we have some visible timer like in previous game? I live in another timezone, also we using in Russia the time format you calling "military time", so it's realy hard for me to get how much time we realy have with all this AM/PM things and timezone differences.

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Question One: You can create a Last will whenever you please. Just know if you don't have one made before you die, obviously, you don't get to post one. Question two: Take another look at my day opening post. At the very bottom I have a functioning Timer that is accurate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Auwt

I believe Martin isnt aware of DM's vote yet.

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I will do some ISO meanwhile.



That's Martin's fault for voting me instead of someone who exposed him:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark Magician

That was the point of my post.
My point is if he claims PR he’s lying.

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He is asking Zedus his opinion on Martin in order to find a middle ground. I find this progressive:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark Magician

This was a bit difficult to read NGL.
I think it’s worded weird but maybe that’s just me.
So just 2 quick questions.
What was the point of Bolded?
What’s your current stance on Martin?
I

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Zedus explaining why he stopped talking with Ren and Martin and very irritated by DM:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zedus

This is Zedus vs Dark Magician, probably. You have seen the Zedus vs Martin series, so nothing new for you :)

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There is one post there where Frinckles is kinda defensive of Martin which is understandable seeing DM did really poke hard there.

But then both Frinckles and Martin reacted to my entrance. At this point i was townreading Frinckles and seen Martin as possible scum buddying me into what's going on. I decided to bring a new perspective here and go after Mike.



Especially this post made me suspect Martin:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MartinGG99

I have had quite a few things learned since last time I've played. I don't focus as much on reads lists, for example. They're important, but I'm less likely to give them as I've learned that the more information a townie gives, the more likely scum can manipulate them or the town's perspective of them. In my last (and only) scum game, I was hit preety harshly by a townie who kept their thoughts veiled and they surprise voted my scum buddy. Given my tendency to offer or be okay my own yeet, it was a very awkward position to be the last scum in the game. I didn't get to deal with it though because when the modbot yeeted my scum buddy, it also had an error and yeeted the counter-wagon too.

I haven't changed entirely, but I have in small ways in small aspects.

---

Here Martin admits he didn't like being in this position as scum where one wagon would end his scum mate and other wagon would kill a townie.

I don't like him admitting all of this then looking at his vote on me now. Especially when I tried to poke him he gives me the following response:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

This is essentially a question that I answered before with Mike at p#8 about the setup, just worded differently to get the same information. I'm not sure if I like that.

---

He doesn't like me asking the question essentially similar to what DM did but worded differently.

I wanted to see the things from DM's eyes here and also Martin's.

This is where I was convinced that I should look elsewhere for the time being because I believed Martin could be potentially town and putting more pressure on him would result in town losing a valuable member.


But later down I find the following:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

So I've thought a fair bit about mike and his claim, and I think he's more likely to be town rather than scum for it at the moment.

Here's a few issues/pointers:

-Its not exactly PR hunting. It only removes them from the possibility of being healer in the future -- there's a lot of other possible town slots or roles he could be.

-Lets assume its PR hunting. Since that's supposedly scummy, why would he start with himself as scum??? He already knows he's not-town (if he's scum), so why clear himself of being a Healer when he already knows that?

-Not to mention, this could just be to WIFOM the scum and virus into thinking he is not the healer when he is.

Overall, regardless of what town slot he is (assuming he is town, which i believe to be more plausible than scum), this is a really safe and smart move. Anyone attacking him for a relatively safe move that isn't truly PR hunting is just foolish or scum looking for something they thought was a cheap shot that was good.

---

Martin claims PR hunting is not scummy.Well, make up your mind Martin. DM called you out on that.
Mike was either setting up a trap for scum in which you fell for OR you are seeing him as Alpha Wolf. Considering Martin's vote on me and placing Mike on town way after this post, I believe Martin was fencesitting in this post

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

I think I got a relative GTH (gun-to-head) read on everyone here who has posted so far:

Townier
Mike
Auwt
Frinckles
Marshmallow Marshall
Dark Magician
Mesk514
Varcron
Renegade
Zedus
bakermir
Thaiax
Victor (Hasn't posted at all so if I can't put him anywhere I'll put him here for the time being. Prob subbed/replaced by D2?)
Scummier

Those with lower post counts are more subject to change, though tbh this goes for everything on this list as with d1 reads in general.

---

DM is on his Town list and quite high.. yet he was exposed + threatened by DM.

WHAT THE HELL?


"Those with lower post counts are more subject to change" and thats why Frinckles is on Martin's TOP 3 right? Or is it because they are teamed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Magician

Yeah They didn’t even say this sites greatest line “Town Takeover”
Before saying how we should VETO Him, MM and Mike.

---

This is where DM starts to soften back with Martin, right after Frinckles started a train and Martin started shouting my name. Before this only Martin was trying to soften with DM while everyone else believed DM is scum. MM voted DM up for example. Zedus sees DM as scum too and voted up before. I think everything is crystal clear they have tried to bus each other. If they didn't then call me a tinfoil hat idiot.

There is still this small chance of DM being hunter but otherwise he is scum.

There is no chance for Martin to be town in my eyes. He have been exposed as a wolf and if he claims TPR I will never trust him. He has been contradicting himself really bad in this.

I think we need
1. Lynch DM.
2. If he is inno, track/shoot Martin.
3. If he is mafia, track/shoot Barkermir.
4. If he is virus... Well, I don't know.

Wait, DM now in Bakermir scum list...
Now I am completely confused.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zedus

I think we need
1. Lynch DM.
2. If he is inno, track/shoot Martin.
3. If he is mafia, track/shoot Barkermir.
4. If he is virus... Well, I don't know.

---

What do you suggest if there is no lynch, which seems increasingly likely here?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renegade

What do you suggest if there is no lynch, which seems increasingly likely here?

---

I don't know. I need more time to think about it, but timer is almost down. I will have time soon and I will try to form up huge lw in the case I will die this night, I hope it will helps. There will me a lot if "IF ... THEN ..." in it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zedus

I think we need
1. Lynch DM.
2. If he is inno, track/shoot Martin.
3. If he is mafia, track/shoot Barkermir.
4. If he is virus... Well, I don't know.

---

correction:

if anything, shoot frinckles. thats what I would do tonight for real

24 hours of night will be enougth to think about everything and consider something. I missed the line a bit for now because of IRL busyness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakermir

correction:

if anything, shoot frinckles. thats what I would do tonight for real

---

and doc can decide who to save. frinckles or me.

Well, prot on bakermir maybe?

I believe this D1 vote should end in one of those ways :

- DM voted off
- MartinGG99 voted off
- Frinckles voted off

Also bakermir isnt an option to my perspective.
If a consensus has to be made between those three, I would follow.

10 minutes left.
Well, looks like noone will be lynched. And maybe this is not as bad, as lynch townie.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zedus

Well, prot on bakermir maybe?

---

actually i don't mind if doc doesn't heal me tonight. I am a threat to mafia during the day.


the real problem will be virus soon and I can sense Martin's fear of Virus since his first posts.

Reminding everyone that VIRUS can be massmurderer and not sk.

We will probably have a lot of people starting to die on D2/D3 to virus. Virus is more lethal than mafia or town and Martin clearly indicated he is willing to go after the people based on their participation and amount of posts. so there you go another proof.

So, mafia, do you afraid of hunter shooting last voter? :)
Or we just got one of you to lynch?
It's now or never, tomorrow we will got you all and lynch one by one.
Do you have balls to vote now?

-vote Frinckles

I will go with him. I can change vote if we need to lynch someone but im also ok with no lynch lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakermir

-vote Frinckles

I will go with him. I can change vote if we need to lynch someone but im also ok with no lynch lol

---

this is simply because I have seen him online and lurking, he didn't even bother to remove vote or join this.

I am convinced he is one of the scum.


I feel like Martin at least put some effort. Frinckles didn't.

Lets continue this on D2.

Most logical vote is Frinckles. That's a scum 100% he is lurking

I will be closing the thread due to Day ending here in 5 minutes! Just a heads up!

Well, I am afk, slowly forming last will and reading whole day from start again. GL HF.

DAY HAS ENDED! STAND BY FOR DAY END POST!!

DAY 1 HAS ENDED! NIGHT 1 HAS BEGUN!



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pr...oyAcDgP0-d_aag

You awake in what feels like a dream. You're in a forest of some sorts. The air is crisp and nippy, and you can feel slushy white coldness from beneath your feet. You look down. You see white. Cold, Wet, White. You recognize this. You haven't seen this in a long time. I believe your people called it snow. You look back up. It's a beautiful starry night sky. You are wondering how you got here.

Then you remember. The chill you felt.. The wolves you saw. It comes back to you in one large emotional swoop. You stumble a bit, catching yourself before you fall. You steady yourself on your walking stick. You start to move forward. Ever forward, hoping to make it to the mountain. The feeling of adrenaline from the unknown fueling your movement. The end feels near but you cannot see the finish line. Where will you go? What will meet you there? Will you Survive what's to come? Only time will tell.

Admist your thoughts you were interrupted by a loud noise, like a shock wave. Rippling through the forest you reside in. It sounded like Wolves howling. If you didn't know any better... you'd think it sounded like they were celebrating.

Your stomach dropped as that thought sinked into your mind... and you started to move faster. As the night all of a sudden didn't feel that safe.

The Day ended in a No Lynch!

Final Vote count for Day 1:
Frinckles (1 [L-6]):
bakermir
Dark Magician (4 [L-3]):
Marshmallow Marshall, Zedus, Auwt, Renegade
MartinGG99 (1 [L-6]):
Mike
bakermir (2 [L-5]):
Frinckles, MartinGG99

Alive: @Dark Magician @Marshmallow Marshall @MartinGG99 @bakermir @Renegade @Varcron @Frinckles @Victor / @Gyrlander @Zedus @Auwt @Mesk514 @Mike @Thaiax / @blinkskater Dead: No one's spirit has passed on just yet!

REMINDER! If you want to make a Last will You should Make one and post it to me by the end of Night 1. Also, if you have Night Actions before to submit them to me Either here on the site through a DM Labeled (Night action) Or to me on Discord if you have the ability to do so. Either way works for me! Just make sure to submit the Night action 1 hour before EoD otherwise you will be considered taking no action. This goes the same for the Last will as well (If you DM me on the site your last will make sure to call the subject "Last will" As well!) Thank you! :D

REPLACEMENTS: @blinkskater has replaced Thaiax! @Gyrlander Has replaced Victor!

Night 1 Ends August 11th at 12:30 PM EST:
https://www.timeanddate.com/countdow...=cursive&csz=1

NIGHT 1 HAS ENDED AND DAY 2 BEGINS!



https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...MEX1A&usqp=CAU

You are freezing. You don't really understand how it became so cold all of a sudden... kind of feels like an otherworldly presence is affecting the weather. You trekked on through the night, stopping to make a fire to eat and sleep for a few winks. You are near the base of the mountain. That Wolf howl still haunting your nightmares and filling your spirit with dread. It didn't feel natural. It didn't feel safe... What's going to happen next?

Before you knew it, you saw a man walking past you in the forest canopy. You crouch and observe. He's walking to what looks like a lake. He has a Ice pick in hand and is probably wanting to extract water for sustenance. Just then you heard it... that sound that pierces your very soul.

The infernal howl. In that instant a Wolf jumps ontop of the man and starts to gnaw into his flesh. The man's screams ringing through the air like an avalanch, breaking the very foundation of reality. The wolf had a glow to them... almost like the wolf wasn't really there. The man's cries died down as his body now lay limp, his blood and entrails leaking onto the snowy canvas like some sick twisted masterpiece. The wolf nowhere to be seen.

You are frozen in terror. Unable to move. Unable to think clearly. What will you do? What CAN you do? You can't move. You can barely breath. What if the wolf comes for you next?

Only time will tell... until then you must keep moving if you want to survive.

@Auwt has been killed by the wolves! His role is Shaman (White Mage)

He left a last will next to his corpse:

Spoiler : Last will :

LW : I decided to heal Renegade N1. Didn't know who else to heal.
Heavy scum lean : Dark Magician, Frinckles, Martin (some or at least one of them may not be scum tho)
Please also try to push Varcron, Mesk, Frinckles, and now Gyrlander and Blinkskater.
We know very little from them. And except Frinckles, none of them have taken clear stance.
Also do not exclude possible Zedus/Renegade. Not very likely tho, but who knows...
Mike, bakermir and MM look the towniest. I suspect Mike to be Virus though considering the way he reacted to DM early (no role hunting).

Alive: @Dark Magician @Marshmallow Marshall @MartinGG99 @bakermir @Renegade @Varcron @Frinckles @Gyrlander @Zedus @Mesk514 @Mike @blinkskater Dead: @Auwt - Shaman (White Mage)

Link to day 1: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...s-II-(Ongoing)

Link to Night 1: https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showt...090#post881090

with 12 players remaining, it is 7 votes to hammer.



Day 2 Ends August 13th at 12:30 PM EST:
https://www.timeanddate.com/countdow...=cursive&csz=1

Wow gg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakermir

You are at the bottom of my list too because you have NOTHING against me

---

Alright, I have quite a few things to say about bakermir. I will show I have a lot more than just "NOTHING" against him.

The short version of it is:

-He is misrepresenting or misinterpreting some of my actions or posts (although a select few are true except for the misjudgment that I'm scum)

-He is taking advantage of the fact that there have been only very limited windows for me to interact or, as he says "confront" him on things I was bothered by him.

-He has repeatedly asked as well as wanting to discuss again and again: mafia, town, and virus play. (Though I don't think town play discussion is bad)

-Much of what he has done closely represents (at least in my point of view) what I tried to do in my last and only scum game:

1. Get into a fight with someone very early on
2. Collect as much information as possible from townies
3. Power wolf with manipulation tactics, with the aid of given information from townies

With the way he has acted towards me and others I cannot feel this is purely towny, and perhaps even trying to LAMIST ("look at me I'm so town"), among other things.

Now, on to addressing bakermir's 'concerns', and to providing and supporting my claims against bakermir:

Spoiler : My Defense :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakermir

I see I am late to the party and somehow Martin consistently made me look evil without even confronting me. All I can see is Martin taking everything I say out of context and scumpaint me. He also avoided me yesterday when I was active.

---

Firstly, I am inactive from around 2am/3am to 12pm/1pm every day (EDT; any time mentions here are EDT in my time). A lot of the posts you made that I had problems with, such as #234 (made at 9:56 AM on August 9th), were made between that inactivity time. Ironically, you show up 30 minutes after my last post of D1, and you start laying down the lies that I haven't been confronting you when it’s quite clear that we often aren't active at the same time.

You were more active around my time on August 8th, but that was before I had problems with you such as your #234 post and therefore couldn't confront you because I had little reason to do so yet, though you were on my radar.

There was also a (roughly) 4 hour window between me being active and you disappearing at 4:11 PM of August 9th. During that window I had just woken up, and was reviewing the interactions and posts that took place while I was gone. Yes, it could have been a good opportunity to ask and confront you, but do you really think I'm so quick as to do things right on the spot within 4 hours of when I woke up (among the other things to do such as having breakfast or evaluating other players)?

Also, bakermir keeps on saying (or implying) this but I haven't seen him quote a single post (or part of a post) where I got it wrong in terms of context and him correcting me. So I have absolutely no clue what he's talking about here, since he has made no effort to specify what was out of context. When people take me out of context (like Dark Magician), I point it out. He mistook me for talking about myself and I was actually just talking about Mike. I haven't seen bakermir do the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakermir

All because you have been voting me. This is the PROOF you are scum. You could have voted DM, who actually tried to expose you but instead you vote me for BS.

---

1.The first half of that statement there is almost completely reminiscent of how you interacted with Mike at times. And yet you TR him in the end. That, by itself only, just looks like pure OMGUS. I imagine you you knew that, so you've created other reasons for it, such as accusing me of an inconsistency that doesn't exist. See below at to why.

2. I have my own reasons for town reading Dark Magician. I haven't said them yet because I don't want scum to manipulate me into town reading you and other scum. My reasoning for the town read solely exists as this:

-Dark Magician, like you said, seems to be a smurf who knows the game of Mafia. Which is what I agree with.

-However, if he's a veteran then I cannot imagine a veteran doing such a derp-post where it says "okay you're definitely not a PR" -- many scums are self-conscious, he doesn't have that anywhere here. I'm inclined to believe he's just a pure town even if his reasons or beliefs are potentially wrong just because he isn't self-conscious here.

-Besides, if we WIFOM it, it can provide good TPR cover. Or maybe I am a TPR. Who knows?

Thanks to you however, I cannot really town read anyone making a derp anymore after this because now this information is out in the open for possible manipulation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakermir

Here Martin admits he didn't like being in this position as scum where one wagon would end his scum mate and other wagon would kill a townie.

---

I'm not sure how or where you get this conclusion from. I really don't. Please explain this to me if you can. Because this just really feels like you trying to fit your arguments into places where they don't fit.

All I said, according to the part you highlighted, was "I haven't changed entirely, but I have in small ways in small aspects." --- Seriously, how does this relate at all? It feels like you're trying to fit me into some crazy story you have in your head, and in the process of doing that you're making weird conclusions from statements about myself as compared to the past. It looks forced.

And even considering the non-highlighted part of the quote you're responding to, I was referring to a game on a different website, with a completely different setup. How does that have any influnence on this game? Furthermore, you said yourself (or implied, see post #83) at the beginning of this game that I was different from the time we first played. This is clearly an acknowledgment that I've changed, but you don't seem to recognize that for the argument or point you make here as it connects to a topic related to a game I had about a month ago. Or, rather, you intentionally disregarded that in order to push a narrative about me.

Spoiler : Related quote :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MartinGG99

So I've thought a fair bit about mike and his claim, and I think he's more likely to be town rather than scum for it at the moment.

Here's a few issues/pointers:

-Its not exactly PR hunting. It only removes them from the possibility of being healer in the future -- there's a lot of other possible town slots or roles he could be.

-Lets assume its PR hunting. Since that's supposedly scummy, why would he start with himself as scum??? He already knows he's not-town (if he's scum), so why clear himself of being a Healer when he already knows that?

-Not to mention, this could just be to WIFOM the scum and virus into thinking he is not the healer when he is.

Overall, regardless of what town slot he is (assuming he is town, which i believe to be more plausible than scum), this is a really safe and smart move. Anyone attacking him for a relatively safe move that isn't truly PR hunting is just foolish or scum looking for something they thought was a cheap shot that was good.

---

The only valid complaint I've seen so far was my post about Mike (see spoiler above) in response to bakermir. The wording does suggest that TPR hunting isn't scummy, but in all honesty I was writing from a stream of conciousness, and usually I am good at putting it together but this time it didn't. I had two thoughts running at the time:

-Mike isn't really TPR hunting

-Yet bakermir is presuming that this is scummy

When those two thoughts combine in my head, it created that weird message where I suggest TPR hunting wasn't scummy as I was trying to convince bakermir that it wasn't TPR hunting by (rhetorically) assuming it was for a moment. I ask anyone who reads this to recognize this belief has been inconsistent with my play and actions -- if I did truly believe it wasn't scummy then I would've been TPR hunting. Besides, who says that as any alignment?

Any other argument's I've seen about me are based on "Martin is probably scum teamed with X" and I can't really defend myself from that since I'm town. Any sort of "teaming" might be the wolves trying to pocket me or otherwise get me killed.
Besides, if its related to Zedus then I think that is just taking advantage of the circumstances between me and him and I would like to see reasons as to why I’m scum unrelated to him.

Spoiler : Why Bakermir is scummy :

Alright, here's where I think bakermir is probably scum, and a fair bit has to do with my last scum game on MU (read if you wish): https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...99s-Paradise-3

Basically, I went and did three things (as stated above in this post):

1. Get into a fight with someone early on; have it resolved as TvT (this was within the first 200ish posts of the scum game)

2. Repeatedly attempt to gain information from townies. (I at various points posted my own reads lists and often asked for the reads lists of everyone else, especially D1 in my scum game)

3. Use that information to manipulate and power wolf through everyone (I used the reads to push consensus votes in my scum game)

Spoiler : Evidence for number 1 :

Well, the evidence for him getting into an early fight with Mike is obvious and comes across numerous posts. However, what bugs me is how he ends it, with his #234 post:

Spoiler : #234 post :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakermir

I disagree with this. I wanted to explain why but then I would be exposing someone who could essentially flip town even though I give it no chances. I know I should have kept silent but I had to mention this because we need more town reads before making a move. Also, continuing this mike vs bakermir, mm discussion will only help mafia agenda to figure out more things about rest of us. That's why I didn't wanna push and every time MIke went for it. Now I feel like I am spilling some beans here, that's another scum point for him. This is not a sheep play coming from him. So his citizen claim is bogus and contradictory to his play.

We like to believe speculating is bad, I see some people are not interested in this. So, It is WIFOM game for everyone it seems. Because of this masquerade we are placed in, I have no other tool than speculating with reads and leads.

At any point, I will not stop speculating. Will I share my thoughts? Only when I need it to win (insert evil laughter here if you want)


Here is the basis of my speculation which I would like to share with everyone since we are on this stage for so long anyway;

Mike is not innocent at all and successfully placed himself to a place where mafia or virus won't touch and placed both me and MM on the other side where only one of us will get to live if mafia or virus ever takes a chance at night.

This wasn't my choice. Mike placed us in this.

With that said, all three of us are lynch proof for the time being. That is what mafia knows for D1.


Think about D2 from out position;

If one of us die tonight, the other two will be the biggest suspects tomorrow. Only one of the remaining could flip town or both could flip scum, seeing the person died at night is town.

So only one of us is vulnerable to mafia tonight. Other two will be protected by mafia at night.


This is of course if they decide visit one of us. Honestly, I give this a small chance. There is a second, more normal scenario:

I think mafia will be killing someone else tonight and instead we will most likely attract the virus as a result of all this exchange with Mike.


So if we are visited tonight, that only means one of us is most likely evil. If none of us are visited then it opens up the possibility where all 3 of us could be town with a possibility of one of us dying to virus or being the virus itself.


Assuming the virus will be very passive on D1 and mafia will have at least one "spokesperson", there is a higher chance all 3 of us could be town. But down in the line, we are in this place where 3 of us are on plate and we don't know who will be served first.

I am quite concerned by all of that honestly.

Take my speculations serious or not. Everyone will make their own reads and work for their wincon. I am not out here to convince people to believe in my speculations. So ignore my ideas if you are convinced in to another world but please don't forget any of this if one of us die tonight.


I townread MM, I just don't see how Mike scumreads him based on MM's involvement in favor of my case. MM and I have nothing to do with each other but we ended up having similar concerns on how Mike tried to place himself on the good side of both town and mafia.




Do not think this post is about me fencesitting between MM and Mike. It is not a trap for town. I just can't think of any other scenario between the three of us.

---

Colors originally in the post disabled for argument's sake, any colors here are added by me.

Your initial statement contradicts what you do for the rest of the post -- I am quite sure you could've "spilled the beans" about your "lynch proof" predicament but nothing resulting from that calls for you to openly speculate about generalized plausible play.

Quite frankly, if you do anything that looks like a foolish early D1 attack on another person you know to be town (or provoke it from them), people generally read it as TvT. I did this in my scum game, and I don't think it takes a whole lot to imagine or think of. Especially for someone who has given a lot of wall posts with quite a bit of speculation.

This seems or feels like saying "hey, this was kinda my plan all along, and we've arrived at this 'lynch proof'" state, and trying to earn town points from your evaluation from it. Also, I don't really think you need to share all your thoughts (or speculation) to win unless you're scum and are doing what I'm overall accusing you of in the rest of this case.

Spoiler : Evidence for number 2 :

As much as I do think some speculation is fine, I think bakermir takes it to a whole new level where either he has a million speculations or he has put every speculative thought he had out there.

Spoiler : Series Of Quotes :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakermir

I disagree with this. I wanted to explain why but then I would be exposing someone who could essentially flip town even though I give it no chances. I know I should have kept silent but I had to mention this because we need more town reads before making a move. Also, continuing this mike vs bakermir, mm discussion will only help mafia agenda to figure out more things about rest of us. That's why I didn't wanna push and every time MIke went for it. Now I feel like I am spilling some beans here, that's another scum point for him. This is not a sheep play coming from him. So his citizen claim is bogus and contradictory to his play.

We like to believe speculating is bad, I see some people are not interested in this. So, It is WIFOM game for everyone it seems. Because of this masquerade we are placed in, I have no other tool than speculating with reads and leads.

At any point, I will not stop speculating. Will I share my thoughts? Only when I need it to win (insert evil laughter here if you want)


Here is the basis of my speculation which I would like to share with everyone since we are on this stage for so long anyway;

Mike is not innocent at all and successfully placed himself to a place where mafia or virus won't touch and placed both me and MM on the other side where only one of us will get to live if mafia or virus ever takes a chance at night.

This wasn't my choice. Mike placed us in this.

With that said, all three of us are lynch proof for the time being. That is what mafia knows for D1.


Think about D2 from out position;

If one of us die tonight, the other two will be the biggest suspects tomorrow. Only one of the remaining could flip town or both could flip scum, seeing the person died at night is town.

So only one of us is vulnerable to mafia tonight. Other two will be protected by mafia at night.


This is of course if they decide visit one of us. Honestly, I give this a small chance. There is a second, more normal scenario:

I think mafia will be killing someone else tonight and instead we will most likely attract the virus as a result of all this exchange with Mike.


So if we are visited tonight, that only means one of us is most likely evil. If none of us are visited then it opens up the possibility where all 3 of us could be town with a possibility of one of us dying to virus or being the virus itself.


Assuming the virus will be very passive on D1 and mafia will have at least one "spokesperson", there is a higher chance all 3 of us could be town. But down in the line, we are in this place where 3 of us are on plate and we don't know who will be served first.

I am quite concerned by all of that honestly.

Take my speculations serious or not. Everyone will make their own reads and work for their wincon. I am not out here to convince people to believe in my speculations. So ignore my ideas if you are convinced in to another world but please don't forget any of this if one of us die tonight.


I townread MM, I just don't see how Mike scumreads him based on MM's involvement in favor of my case. MM and I have nothing to do with each other but we ended up having similar concerns on how Mike tried to place himself on the good side of both town and mafia.




Do not think this post is about me fencesitting between MM and Mike. It is not a trap for town. I just can't think of any other scenario between the three of us.

---

Discussing speculation about scum play. I think discussing scum play is dangerous and prone to being manipulated by scum. I think its usually okay when discussing whether one person is scum or not, but if you start from this speculation as a reason for suspicion then you're quite manipulatable. Although you can't really be manipulated if you're scum....However he states he isn't trying to convince anyone of his speculation, but it does seem to factor into the arguments he makes in the thread at times, so I think inevitably he is trying to convince people of his speculation on scum play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakermir

Sure thing, it is all speculations at this point. I am trying my best to not sound aggressive but I will reiterate what I said earlier;

I still believe the virus would lay low D1 and mafia would have at minimum 1 "spokesperson". Maybe a second one for a potential bussing or teaming. I don't believe there would be an active third and yes I also think at least 1 (be it virus or 1 mafia member) scum is in inactive slots.


Now reading the rolecards, I have a strong feeling the Alpha Wolf would be the this designated spokesperson simply because they are immune to vigi shots and sheriff reads as long as the enforcer is alive. I believe the investigative wolf would be the less active but still playing their own game, especially indicating how we need them on D2. This slot could take the risk of bussing with Alpha or buddying townies. The most vulnerable wolf is the one doing legwork and it would be most logical if they were to be passive in D1 chat to avoid sheriff's and detectives. Thats my theory and the puzzle pieces I can see. I can put names on them and try to figure out who is matching the descriptions, in which I did and justifies all I have done against certain people.

I am chill though, maybe I am just speculating everything wrong and getting memed by mafia. Possible

---

I don't understand how he can’t see saying his speculation has potential in changing the very scum play that he's hunting for? I mean, If I were scum that it would be quite easy to avoid being scum read by him based on how much he information he has given out in the previous paragraph of this here quote.

Not to mention, he has asked for these kinds of thoughts from other players, which is what I find concerning. Normally you would ask maybe one or two people if you were secretly scum hunting them based on their answer, but I don't think it’s good that he's trying to reveal all the town's cards:

Spoiler : More quotes :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakermir

This is interesting.


What do you think the mafia strategy will be for this game?

---

As I said in an earlier response to this, this is quite similar to a question to an answer I gave on post #8. Just worded differently in order to try and get the same information that I didn't wish to reveal. It looks like you’re trying to start a discussion on this that (in my firm opinion) has potential to harm town more than it’ll help town.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bakermir

I did read that post carefully and also the post I've quoted about the town strategy.


I should have asked it in a better way I believe. Maybe make it in smaller pieces.

What kind of a concept are we facing here? Is is Mafia vs Virus vs Town or Evils vs Town? How does the priority list for town look like?



Who would be the top priority target for mafia? Both day and night, like would they lay low on day 1 or soft claim stuff? Maybe push people around?


Should vigilante's shoot on N1? Is it a smart idea to visit highly suspicious players tonight and get multiple people sick?

I have so many questions in my head, trying to figure this out from every role's perspective ugh

---

Okay, I'll give you this. I think some topics are fine to openly discuss and speculate. Such as possible town priorities. It is ones that tend to assume scum will act a certain way are what bother me, such as here. They're dangerous assumptions or speculations to make, and provided scum knows everyone's thoughts on scum play, they can just weasel right by it without ever being caught. Although, I do think some of the possible subjects exist in a sort of "grey area", and I'm not sure if they should be discussed. On the one hand, discussing optimal vigilante play prevents scum from claiming vigilante and blending in with the claims on who they "shot" as well as making sure our vigilantes are efficient as possible, on the other hand such information can prepare scum for who they can expect to die. If they can expect who dies, they have better control of the game.

Spoiler : Evidence for number 3 :

I will admit, #3 is yet to be seen but if there are two scum (including bakermir) in that "lynch proof" state then he has already started to work his magic.

I just think #2 is the excuse for him to allow his scum buddies slip by to win the game, which will be #3.

If anything, this is the weakest point of my argument and/or case here.

So, I hope you all have looked at the evidence for the number 1, 2, and 3 parts. I also hope that you all can see where I am coming from, and why I wish to put bakermir under a magnifying glass -- and consider elimination. Because I feel like his actions as displayed in #1 are indicative and along with #2 displays a level or degree of open speculation to the point that it may as well be anti-town for its potential to leave him and/or others to be manipulated.

However, there was one final point I wanted to make:

Spoiler : One Final Point :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakermir

I would rather lynch Victor here because I don't want to have a potential scum slot replaced with a veteran then when we want to analyse this person, we will have nothing to work with. no day 1 participation. This looks to me like the most logical lynch. But again, I won't be starting any trains.

---

I quite disagree with the elimination of slots that are bound to be replaced. I believe someone said it earlier, but statistically speaking they're more likely to be town than not, provided no participation.

Given the above, along with some of your other actions, I have to say this: If your most likeliest elimination vote is the people who vote you, or the people who don't post at all, then this just really looks like scum grasping at straws here because they had TMI and relatively townread everyone else. That, or you need to up your scum hunting game because if you're aren't courageous enough to look at people who don't attack you or do post much then a lot of scum can just slip by you by virtue of knowing that.

I'll die if I have to prove this point to you (or the town) about this.

Please note that the above statement isn't meant to offend you or attack you as a person --- its just of my personal opinion (and argument) that I grossly disagree with your statement and arguments at times as a slot, as well as actions.

There, @bakermir

Do you have anything else to say about how I am scum? I believe I've addressed everything (if not most) here with this comprehensive case. Hopefully you more closely understand my perspective of you, or how to manipulate and distort it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AIVION

Auwt has been killed by the wolves! His role is Shaman (White Mage)

---

Ouch.

Holy wallpost, pretty sure martin is town. Not for the really well put wallpost either. But more because after having read the game i find most of his reads align with mine. Coming in i had baker as top scum, likely alpha based on his play. I saw a lot of things he said that i didn't agree with. I also have the same reasoning to townread DM. I don't see his early thought process as ever coming from a scum .

ITS TIME FOR A TOWN BLINK TAKEOVER

Oh right hi...I'm blink. Im replacing Thaix or whatever his name was. I implore yall to look at his post talking about how everything that everyone was saying was all baseless accusations. Then i need you to put yourself in a 1st time townies shoes of a certain variety. Next i want you to imagine your a first time wolf. In my very honest opinion that type of post would N E V E R come from a 1st time wolf lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MartinGG99

Alright, I have quite a few things to say about bakermir. I will show I have a lot more than just "NOTHING" against him.

The short version of it is:

-He is misrepresenting or misinterpreting some of my actions or posts (although a select few are true except for the misjudgment that I'm scum)

-He is taking advantage of the fact that there have been only very limited windows for me to interact or, as he says "confront" him on things I was bothered by him.

-He has repeatedly asked as well as wanting to discuss again and again: mafia, town, and virus play. (Though I don't think town play discussion is bad)

-Much of what he has done closely represents (at least in my point of view) what I tried to do in my last and only scum game:

1. Get into a fight with someone very early on
2. Collect as much information as possible from townies
3. Power wolf with manipulation tactics, with the aid of given information from townies

With the way he has acted towards me and others I cannot feel this is purely towny, and perhaps even trying to LAMIST ("look at me I'm so town"), among other things.

Now, on to addressing bakermir's 'concerns', and to providing and supporting my claims against bakermir:

Spoiler : My Defense :

Firstly, I am inactive from around 2am/3am to 12pm/1pm every day (EDT; any time mentions here are EDT in my time). A lot of the posts you made that I had problems with, such as #234 (made at 9:56 AM on August 9th), were made between that inactivity time. Ironically, you show up 30 minutes after my last post of D1, and you start laying down the lies that I haven't been confronting you when it’s quite clear that we often aren't active at the same time.

You were more active around my time on August 8th, but that was before I had problems with you such as your #234 post and therefore couldn't confront you because I had little reason to do so yet, though you were on my radar.

There was also a (roughly) 4 hour window between me being active and you disappearing at 4:11 PM of August 9th. During that window I had just woken up, and was reviewing the interactions and posts that took place while I was gone. Yes, it could have been a good opportunity to ask and confront you, but do you really think I'm so quick as to do things right on the spot within 4 hours of when I woke up (among the other things to do such as having breakfast or evaluating other players)?

Also, bakermir keeps on saying (or implying) this but I haven't seen him quote a single post (or part of a post) where I got it wrong in terms of context and him correcting me. So I have absolutely no clue what he's talking about here, since he has made no effort to specify what was out of context. When people take me out of context (like Dark Magician), I point it out. He mistook me for talking about myself and I was actually just talking about Mike. I haven't seen bakermir do the same.



1.The first half of that statement there is almost completely reminiscent of how you interacted with Mike at times. And yet you TR him in the end. That, by itself only, just looks like pure OMGUS. I imagine you you knew that, so you've created other reasons for it, such as accusing me of an inconsistency that doesn't exist. See below at to why.

2. I have my own reasons for town reading Dark Magician. I haven't said them yet because I don't want scum to manipulate me into town reading you and other scum. My reasoning for the town read solely exists as this:

-Dark Magician, like you said, seems to be a smurf who knows the game of Mafia. Which is what I agree with.

-However, if he's a veteran then I cannot imagine a veteran doing such a derp-post where it says "okay you're definitely not a PR" -- many scums are self-conscious, he doesn't have that anywhere here. I'm inclined to believe he's just a pure town even if his reasons or beliefs are potentially wrong just because he isn't self-conscious here.

-Besides, if we WIFOM it, it can provide good TPR cover. Or maybe I am a TPR. Who knows?

Thanks to you however, I cannot really town read anyone making a derp anymore after this because now this information is out in the open for possible manipulation.




I'm not sure how or where you get this conclusion from. I really don't. Please explain this to me if you can. Because this just really feels like you trying to fit your arguments into places where they don't fit.

All I said, according to the part you highlighted, was "I haven't changed entirely, but I have in small ways in small aspects." --- Seriously, how does this relate at all? It feels like you're trying to fit me into some crazy story you have in your head, and in the process of doing that you're making weird conclusions from statements about myself as compared to the past. It looks forced.

And even considering the non-highlighted part of the quote you're responding to, I was referring to a game on a different website, with a completely different setup. How does that have any influnence on this game? Furthermore, you said yourself (or implied, see post #83) at the beginning of this game that I was different from the time we first played. This is clearly an acknowledgment that I've changed, but you don't seem to recognize that for the argument or point you make here as it connects to a topic related to a game I had about a month ago. Or, rather, you intentionally disregarded that in order to push a narrative about me.

Spoiler : Related quote :

The only valid complaint I've seen so far was my post about Mike (see spoiler above) in response to bakermir. The wording does suggest that TPR hunting isn't scummy, but in all honesty I was writing from a stream of conciousness, and usually I am good at putting it together but this time it didn't. I had two thoughts running at the time:

-Mike isn't really TPR hunting

-Yet bakermir is presuming that this is scummy

When those two thoughts combine in my head, it created that weird message where I suggest TPR hunting wasn't scummy as I was trying to convince bakermir that it wasn't TPR hunting by (rhetorically) assuming it was for a moment. I ask anyone who reads this to recognize this belief has been inconsistent with my play and actions -- if I did truly believe it wasn't scummy then I would've been TPR hunting. Besides, who says that as any alignment?

Any other argument's I've seen about me are based on "Martin is probably scum teamed with X" and I can't really defend myself from that since I'm town. Any sort of "teaming" might be the wolves trying to pocket me or otherwise get me killed.
Besides, if its related to Zedus then I think that is just taking advantage of the circumstances between me and him and I would like to see reasons as to why I’m scum unrelated to him.

Spoiler : Why Bakermir is scummy :

Alright, here's where I think bakermir is probably scum, and a fair bit has to do with my last scum game on MU (read if you wish): https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...99s-Paradise-3

Basically, I went and did three things (as stated above in this post):

1. Get into a fight with someone early on; have it resolved as TvT (this was within the first 200ish posts of the scum game)

2. Repeatedly attempt to gain information from townies. (I at various points posted my own reads lists and often asked for the reads lists of everyone else, especially D1 in my scum game)

3. Use that information to manipulate and power wolf through everyone (I used the reads to push consensus votes in my scum game)

Spoiler : Evidence for number 1 :

Well, the evidence for him getting into an early fight with Mike is obvious and comes across numerous posts. However, what bugs me is how he ends it, with his #234 post:

Spoiler : #234 post :

Colors originally in the post disabled for argument's sake, any colors here are added by me.

Your initial statement contradicts what you do for the rest of the post -- I am quite sure you could've "spilled the beans" about your "lynch proof" predicament but nothing resulting from that calls for you to openly speculate about generalized plausible play.

Quite frankly, if you do anything that looks like a foolish early D1 attack on another person you know to be town (or provoke it from them), people generally read it as TvT. I did this in my scum game, and I don't think it takes a whole lot to imagine or think of. Especially for someone who has given a lot of wall posts with quite a bit of speculation.

This seems or feels like saying "hey, this was kinda my plan all along, and we've arrived at this 'lynch proof'" state, and trying to earn town points from your evaluation from it. Also, I don't really think you need to share all your thoughts (or speculation) to win unless you're scum and are doing what I'm overall accusing you of in the rest of this case.

Spoiler : Evidence for number 2 :

As much as I do think some speculation is fine, I think bakermir takes it to a whole new level where either he has a million speculations or he has put every speculative thought he had out there.

Spoiler : Series Of Quotes :

Discussing speculation about scum play. I think discussing scum play is dangerous and prone to being manipulated by scum. I think its usually okay when discussing whether one person is scum or not, but if you start from this speculation as a reason for suspicion then you're quite manipulatable. Although you can't really be manipulated if you're scum....However he states he isn't trying to convince anyone of his speculation, but it does seem to factor into the arguments he makes in the thread at times, so I think inevitably he is trying to convince people of his speculation on scum play.

I don't understand how he can’t see saying his speculation has potential in changing the very scum play that he's hunting for? I mean, If I were scum that it would be quite easy to avoid being scum read by him based on how much he information he has given out in the previous paragraph of this here quote.

Not to mention, he has asked for these kinds of thoughts from other players, which is what I find concerning. Normally you would ask maybe one or two people if you were secretly scum hunting them based on their answer, but I don't think it’s good that he's trying to reveal all the town's cards:

Spoiler : More quotes :

As I said in an earlier response to this, this is quite similar to a question to an answer I gave on post #8. Just worded differently in order to try and get the same information that I didn't wish to reveal. It looks like you’re trying to start a discussion on this that (in my firm opinion) has potential to harm town more than it’ll help town.


Okay, I'll give you this. I think some topics are fine to openly discuss and speculate. Such as possible town priorities. It is ones that tend to assume scum will act a certain way are what bother me, such as here. They're dangerous assumptions or speculations to make, and provided scum knows everyone's thoughts on scum play, they can just weasel right by it without ever being caught. Although, I do think some of the possible subjects exist in a sort of "grey area", and I'm not sure if they should be discussed. On the one hand, discussing optimal vigilante play prevents scum from claiming vigilante and blending in with the claims on who they "shot" as well as making sure our vigilantes are efficient as possible, on the other hand such information can prepare scum for who they can expect to die. If they can expect who dies, they have better control of the game.

Spoiler : Evidence for number 3 :

I will admit, #3 is yet to be seen but if there are two scum (including bakermir) in that "lynch proof" state then he has already started to work his magic.

I just think #2 is the excuse for him to allow his scum buddies slip by to win the game, which will be #3.

If anything, this is the weakest point of my argument and/or case here.

So, I hope you all have looked at the evidence for the number 1, 2, and 3 parts. I also hope that you all can see where I am coming from, and why I wish to put bakermir under a magnifying glass -- and consider elimination. Because I feel like his actions as displayed in #1 are indicative and along with #2 displays a level or degree of open speculation to the point that it may as well be anti-town for its potential to leave him and/or others to be manipulated.

However, there was one final point I wanted to make:

Spoiler : One Final Point :

I quite disagree with the elimination of slots that are bound to be replaced. I believe someone said it earlier, but statistically speaking they're more likely to be town than not, provided no participation.

Given the above, along with some of your other actions, I have to say this: If your most likeliest elimination vote is the people who vote you, or the people who don't post at all, then this just really looks like scum grasping at straws here because they had TMI and relatively townread everyone else. That, or you need to up your scum hunting game because if you're aren't courageous enough to look at people who don't attack you or do post much then a lot of scum can just slip by you by virtue of knowing that.

I'll die if I have to prove this point to you (or the town) about this.

Please note that the above statement isn't meant to offend you or attack you as a person --- its just of my personal opinion (and argument) that I grossly disagree with your statement and arguments at times as a slot, as well as actions.

There, @bakermir

Do you have anything else to say about how I am scum? I believe I've addressed everything (if not most) here with this comprehensive case. Hopefully you more closely understand my perspective of you, or how to manipulate and distort it.

---

@MartinGG99

I am not gonna read this right now because I am already cringing that you still think I am scum. I believe there are a lot of manipulations here and I am not falling into your trap. I advise everyone else the same regarding Martin.


As for my defense, here is a part of my LW, I prepared a chart for everyone here, the same chart I was working on during D1.


Auwt is dead. His LW matches my chart. His role and alignment matches my chart.

He was convinced you are scum and I am good.


I expected some of the people who interacted with me to die. I knew I would be day target of mafia all along. I knew this risk since the beginning when I threw myself on stage.


Here I present the chart part from my LW:

https://i.ibb.co/x3HPSSC/Untitled-Diagram-2.png

(I can explain this chart in detail if you have questions, right now I have to be away a bit)




IF @MartinGG99 claims to be townie, then I challenge him to put a part of his LW down where he doesn't reveal his role. Or propose a solid evidence. Otherwise he is scumtunneling me and I want him to be today's lynch because of the post above which smells scum and full of vendetta. I refuse to play a part in his status-quo for his selfish gains.




I am willing to work with anyone here except for Martin until he proves me he is not scum. He is clearly tunneled on me and fail to provide anything progressive for us town.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blinkskater

Oh right hi...I'm blink. Im replacing Thaix or whatever his name was. I implore yall to look at his post talking about how everything that everyone was saying was all baseless accusations. Then i need you to put yourself in a 1st time townies shoes of a certain variety. Next i want you to imagine your a first time wolf. In my very honest opinion that type of post would N E V E R come from a 1st time wolf lol.

---

Hmmm. I suppose I can town read it, and take your word for it.

I never really came to FM completely new like he did (since I had studied a fair bit), but I didn't have the experience. So I kind of don't truly know how new wolves or new townies always act.

But I think I'm going to stay at least a little suspicious of it -- anyone can do anything as a response to stress, and judging by the slot's posts it seemed they were overwhelmed by the tasks of playing the game.

Doc dead N1 is giving me champs flashblacks.