Remove JUDGE night chat?

It's come to our attention that CRIER is substantially underperforming at present. A few options have been presented, such as moving it to Power/Support town spawns, giving an obvious reveal mechanic for when the Crier needs to identify themself.

We view the ability to self-confirm as ESSENTIAL to any town Government role; the only one that can't is CITIZEN (and they get a vest partially for that reason). The Mayor can -vote, the Marshall can -lynch, the Constable can day-execute anyone, the Mason leader(if spawns alone) can recruit Masons and/or purge cultists, and 2 or more Masons can confirm each other. Crier, in theory, should be able to do this too, either by codeword, elaborate colored text, or a daybutton. But none of these are viable as long as the JUDGE can night chat.

Crier's image to us is to be able to, instead of being a trolly citizen, is someone who does things like vote analysis, points out errors in pasted LWs or claims, winnows down the odds, and suggests targets to investigate and kill...and all from a position where the Scum can't easily shut him up, because nobody knows who he is.

So we're thinking of removing the JUDGE night chat. In fact, we think Judge night chat actually hurts the role more than it helps much of the time. No other Neutral Evil (WITCH, AUDITOR) has such a method of communicating to the town or Mafia in an effective manner. Beyond this, if you go into N1 and say "JUDGE HERE, DON'T KILL ODDS", that tells the town roles several things. If you're the VIGILANTE, your list of targets to take out was just halved. If you're jailor, similar. If you're Marshall/Mayor, you know you shouldn't reveal until you know the JUDGE is sucking dirt, and if you're CRIER, the massive CC means nobody will listen to you because they have no way to determine you from the JUDGE.

So what we propose is that the JUDGE will have night chat removed (and, depending on coding difficulty, it may return after he -courts for the first time). Additionally, the Crier might instead be "COURT REPORTER" during court trials or some such, instead of just "COURT".

Expected results to the meta: Buff to crier. Free of the spectre of "being judge", he can lead unimpeded, at least until the JUDGE reveals. He also gets additional cred during court if we change his in-court name.

Buff to Judge. While the JUDGE cannot talk and warn against killing him, mafia can still communicate to him with Death Notes. Furthermore, so long as a JUDGE is not forced into the setup table, and instead spawns randomly, we expect more mid-game "Gotchas!" where a hitherto unknown JUDGE who spawned in a Neutral Evil, Any Neutral, or Random Any slot will will court shortly after someone becomes confirmed and eliminate them, possibly to devastating effect if it was a multiple elimination from a MARSHALL.

We're open to alternate suggestions, if anyone has one, but this is one that we think will make the game overall more fun, interesting, and lead to more shocking endings.

Let us know what you think.

Auditor and Witch have some investigating capabilities so they often find at least 1 triad/mafia to start communication or narrow down the potential triad/mafia members massively. Judge has none of that so he kinda needs the chat to communicate. Also i don't really like the idea of silent Judge in general which a lot of people practice just to catch that unlucky Marshall who got Judge alongside him and called lynch (Mayor can just outvote judge anyway unless the setup favors Judge). I don't agree narrowing numbers for possible Judge by half is that helpful to town, only Investigator could bother using that info but that's about it. Other town roles are more efficient at looking for triad/neut killer than evil. And i still don't think Crier having night chat is useful for anything apart from cult saves where it already can be decently used to confirm he isn't culted. I already said it like 2 years ago but meta is just too fast to use night chat as Crier, if u will wait for the night to try to get some reason into those smooth town brains it's most likely too late and they already lynched the wrong person. Also there is only so much leading u can do without hampering the town, u don't want to give evils too accurate info by sending people to exact numbers in public chat, there is a lot of ways it can be used against town later on. Crier needs anonymous day chat otherwise it will be always underwhelming unless usual setups change. Especially with 8331/834 saves town can lose majority easly by Day 4 already without even a single lynch.

This should be a no-brainer. Even people who like crier rarely assume a coordinating role for town. I am not sure what the original point of crier was, if it was meant to counter-balance Judge, but it has become just a step above citizen in how the average player utilizes the role.

Judge, however, is very powerful with marshall, and given that Crier has never really balanced Judge's "-court," I would love to see the role re-tooled. Thanks for bringing this up Arrow/whomever.

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Originally Posted by Drizzt

I am not sure what the original point of crier was, if it was meant to counter-balance Judge

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My understanding was that Crier existed before Judge.

yea the night chat is really not necessary for judge. Its ability is already 1 of the most powerful in the game. It's not much of a nerf either, as the evils really only 50/50 listen to what judge tells them to do. The only time it's really useful is near the end of the game when you can open-claim without fear of getting lynched. Which you could just do during the day like other neuts anyway.

Judge can also communicate with evils during a court, such as saying "Kill evens", which is pretty much the only useful thing judge can say.

There is no point in judge speaking at night, because most of the time they would want to stay hidden until they can ambush marshall/mayor.

In other words, Judge doesn't need the ability to speak at night, so I agree with this change.

I actually disagree, this will make govs even less prone to revealing with even a slight chance of judge in the game.

Not only that, but night chat while not necessary does make things more fun.

Plus if you are crier and there is no judge you become extremely powerful since evils think there is an extra evil when there actually isn't one. A suggestion could be make it so judge has a charge on how many nights they can talk? That'd probably make the most sense.

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Originally Posted by MrMostache

Judge can also communicate with evils during a court, such as saying "Kill evens", which is pretty much the only useful thing judge can say.

There is no point in judge speaking at night, because most of the time they would want to stay hidden until they can ambush marshall/mayor.

In other words, Judge doesn't need the ability to speak at night, so I agree with this change.

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It removes the variety of how you can play as judge though. Where you once had more than one option of gameplay (like witch can pick multiple different things to do to win with evils) you are now restricted to one way.

I agree with Varcron.

Currently Judge has flexibility in the way they play:
* Stay quiet, risk getting killed by evils, bait Gov to reveal
* Reveal n1, risk getting killed by Town Killing, prevent Gov from revealing

Night chat also allows Judge to coordinate evils, e.g. "Mafia hit odds between 1-7, SK hit odds between 8-15" "Don't target 5, he is Veteran"

This ability is NOT harmful to Judge, on the contrary it is very strong. Judges can lurk or reveal at their own preference and judgement call.

So I do not agree that the proposed change is a BUFF to Judge, nor is the ability to chat at night hurtful to the role.

*****

Moving on to Crier:

Crier is also capable of night chat coordination. Depending on the content of what they say, it should be obvious whether they're Town or Judge.
Like Judge, Crier's night chat ability can be very strong if properly used to coordinate.
"8 is Jailor, Doc on him. 9 is Vigi, BG and LO on him. 4 quietly lurking all game, let's trial him tomorrow. 10's LW doesn't add up, Vigi on him tonight"

Just because the playerbase doesn't use the role to its fullest extent, does not mean the role itself is bad.
While not as dramatic or mechanically powerful as Mayor, Marshall or Constable, being able to talk at night is still a pretty strong ability.

Removing Judge's night chat is a NERF to Judge and a BUFF to Crier.

However, I do not see a need to nerf Judge to make Crier more viable.
Players who are lazy to coordinate at night as Crier will continue to not do so, regardless of Judge's ability to talk.

The problem is not with the role itself, but with the way players use it.
I strongly feel that it's because players need something flashy in order to lend the role any credibility.

In which case, how about a -reveal for Crier that does nothing except confirming the Crier in day-chat or even night-chat?

Vacron and Exeter presented some good points.

Then how about this simple solution: Label Crier as "Crier" and Judge as "Judge" in night chat.

Exeter says that It is easy to identify the difference between a crier and a judge chat (which I personally don't agree with), which means that there is no point in making them both "Cirer".

Don't remove crier, just re-purpose him. Put him Town Support.

I think everyone's problem with crier isn't his ability, it's that when he gets rolled, it usually means he took a TOWN GOV slot. Just make him town support.

I would argue crier is an even stronger role than party host. If a skilled player gets "crier", they can lead town through anonymous guidance at night. It really is a powerful role, like coroner, but you need to know how to use it. As someone who enjoys getting crier, I think if you repurpose it to Town Support you will see what a great role it really is.

I vote in favor of Judge keeping night chat. How'd judge gonna interrupt a marshall lynch, then communicate who he is to mafia amidst that chaos? When Marsh lynch completes, day ENDS. Judge still needs time to communicate to evils who he is.

Judge without night chat is like a 2D character. Night chat makes him 3D. It adds a whole new DIMENSION! How dare you try to destroy this.

I honestly can't believe all these threads that want to change mechanics that have been around for 5 years but many of the new 2.0 roles are extremely unpolished and are equally as worthy victims to the chopping block, if not moreso. Can we focus on polishing the new roles please?

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Originally Posted by MrMostache

Vacron and Exeter presented some good points.

Then how about this simple solution: Label Crier as "Crier" and Judge as "Judge" in night chat.

Exeter says that It is easy to identify the difference between a crier and a judge chat (which I personally don't agree with), which means that there is no point in making them both "Cirer".

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This is also an OK solution to me.

Ties in with Arrow's idea to distinguish Crier during Court, too.

Why would I make crier a support role when I could just make him a true government role, like he was intended to be?

As we've seen, previous meta is familiar but is not always best.

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Originally Posted by RufusPL

Crier needs anonymous day chat otherwise it will be always underwhelming unless usual setups change.

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I honestly love this idea a ton, and think it fits the role and buffs it in a fair and fun way

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Originally Posted by Frinckles

Why would I make crier a support role when I could just make him a true government role, like he was intended to be?

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It's either make crier support and leave him as he is, or rework/tweak him a bit and keep him gov in my eyes, he is super underwhelming with how players use him(not the role's fault) and nerfing judge to make judge a boring role to play will not impact crier enough to change how players play him, at minimum if everything were to stay as is he should gain a vest or cit winning ties is the special thing for cit, current crier has to play anonymous and that goes against the very ideal of what town government is, and if the crier tries to reveal it can be CCed, a fake call, or just killed during the same night.

I also completely agree with Exeter, I don't like the idea of making Judge a 2d role just to attempt to buff a role that needs change, not a buff

Crier has always been a useless role whose only value is that it can always be healed. Anything it can say at night, it can say during the day. Just remove crier already, don't destroy the Judge to make Crier seem useful. Constable is officially 500% better than the Crier could ever hope to be.

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Originally Posted by MrMostache

Vacron and Exeter presented some good points.

Then how about this simple solution: Label Crier as "Crier" and Judge as "Judge" in night chat.

Exeter says that It is easy to identify the difference between a crier and a judge chat (which I personally don't agree with), which means that there is no point in making them both "Cirer".

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Doing this removes the Judge's ability to pretend to be Crier.


Same with giving Crier a way to -reveal in daychat.


I like the idea of putting Crier in Town Support instead of Town Gov.

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Originally Posted by Lysergic

Doing this removes the Judge's ability to pretend to be Crier.


Same with giving Crier a way to -reveal in daychat.


I like the idea of putting Crier in Town Support instead of Town Gov.

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There is no point for judge to pretend to be a crier, Because everyone will assume that you are judge by default. This applies to crier too. they will still assume you are judge.

"I'm 7. Pm me tomorrow". " You are not confirmed crier fuck you".

Then maybe change the crier role all together.

Each night the crier can select one person who's feedback will be broadcast to the town in the morning. Like that.

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Originally Posted by Lysergic

Doing this removes the Judge's ability to pretend to be Crier.


Same with giving Crier a way to -reveal in daychat.


I like the idea of putting Crier in Town Support instead of Town Gov.

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Sup

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Originally Posted by SuperJack

Sup

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oh hai

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Originally Posted by Renegade

Then maybe change the crier role all together.

Each night the crier can select one person who's feedback will be broadcast to the town in the morning. Like that.

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That's basically Journalist. I'd rather have that be it's own role.

I'll post my thoughts on changing crier later.

I'm not entirely opposed to removing Judge night chat.

Judge is perhaps the most powerful neutral evil role, even on the weakest settings.

Honestly, I think it'd be amusing to see CRIER and JUDGE bicker back and forth at night, being properly labeled with their actual roles instead of just being called 'Crier.' I also think that CRIER being a more common role would be more fun, as I've not played a single game where there was a CRIER. I think this is because it's always disabled because it gets in the way of other government roles. Either that, or CRIER gets their own special little Daychat, letting JUDGE have control of the nightchat.

Either way, I think there should definitely be some changes to CRIER - I haven't played a single game where there was a CRIER in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Frinckles

That's basically Journalist. I'd rather have that be it's own role.

I'll post my thoughts on changing crier later.

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Then what do you have in mind for a Crier rework? B/c making a potential rework of Crier be its separate role isn't helping the Crier role itself.

As for the actual Judge night chat. It's fine as it is, although I wouldn't mind it saying "Judge" instead of "Crier". I just disagree with removing it.

As Judge you have two strategies you can do:

You can start talking and coordinating with evil from the very first night. This suppresses potential town leaders and investigatives, pressuring them not to reveal themselves or their leads, since you will guarantee the wrath of a united evil vote on their ass.

ooooor

You can not talk at all, meaning no coordination with evils and leaving them exposed to town, and you run the risk of being mistakingly shot by a fellow evil. However, this makes it harder for town to find out who the Neutral Evil is at first, since you wouldn't be speaking and making yourself known, allowing for more possible townies or NBs to be mislynched before you court. The best part about this strategy however is that you can lull the town into a false sense of security, and ambush the first townie to dare out an evil or take leadership of the town. The evils will still be united in voting them out anyways.

Me personally, I play the second strategy. But there is a lot of merit to the first strategy and it comes down to personal perference or what strategy genuinely is better for a certain game. We should not be restricting the strategies you can play with a role.

Nothing's wrong with Judge. In all actuality, a lot of things are wrong with Crier, and at the very least, before we could agree on a rework, we could atleast agree on making Judge night chat say "Judge" instead of "Crier", since it wouldn't change ability to do the above two strats while giving Crier some sort of a chance.

I completely agree with the post. Crier is a useless role made even more useless by Judge. At the very least, Crier should get a Court Reporter highlight during Judge court.