Beguiler should be allowed to safely beguile to Vet wihout dying.

There has been roles that can safely "nest" inside the Veteran like Lookout and that can safely visit the veteran like Witch, they come visit him then come out of his alert unscathed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gS7...ew?usp=sharing
(sorry, default attachment manager is not working at all right now so i had to use google drive to share the replay)
The replay attached here serves as a fine example. Witch fed an executioner to veteran, and lives. Lookout could watch over the veteran and live.

So how come the beguiler/deceiver, when he visits the veteran, successfully redirects visitors to the vet (exemplified by the Oracle in the replay being beguiled to read me the beguiler as the vet I made him visit) at the cost of himself? I think beguiler should be able to walk out of beguiling to a veteran unscathed. It provides a vulnerability to veteran, especially one that instantly confirms themselves to the town and takes leadership, and allows mafia/triad to have another counterplay option against veteran besides "wait until we gain majority" that won't have a chance of backfiring on mafia. Also to keep it consistent with other roles such as Lookout and Witch, and to make Beguiler/Deceiver a more approachable role for most as it gives a "jumping off" point to understand the role better, something that I think is lacking right now with the role specifically.

If the person that visited the beguiler left a last will then what does the beguiler do?
If they claim veteran then the actual veteran can counter claim because they're the one that actually had the visitor feedback and made the kill. And so the beguiler is outted.

Which means the beguiler has to just claim that a witch redirected to veteran, but that doesn't work if multiple people got redirected or if witch isn't possible because of dead neutrals. And people generally ignore witch defenses anyway.

It's still a buff since being outted is better than being dead, but I don't think it will counter the veteran as much as you say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lumi

If the person that visited the beguiler left a last will then what does the beguiler do?
If they claim veteran then the actual veteran can counter claim because they're the one that actually had the visitor feedback and made the kill. And so the beguiler is outted.

Which means the beguiler has to just claim that a witch redirected to veteran, but that doesn't work if multiple people got redirected or if witch isn't possible because of dead neutrals. And people generally ignore witch defenses anyway.

It's still a buff since being outted is better than being dead, but I don't think it will counter the veteran as much as you say.

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It doesn't necessarily have to insta-out the beguiler. If the victim didnt leave a LW, Beguiler can claim Vet. If the Beguiler does -colors after a vetkill (during night) to determine who died, Beguiller can say "im vet i killed so and so" on the first second of the day before the victim even shows up as dead to everyone (this is a tactic I often use to confirm myself as vet in case my victims provide no LWs). Actually, someone who tried to visit the Beguiler but gets beguiled to veteran will prob end up leaving a LW outting you as the "veteran". In that case, real veteran actually has less leads confirming him, and people can and will treat the Beguiler as the "real" Veteran, especially if there's not a single hint of witch or bus driver.

If the current situation is egregiously close, having two vets claim with no LWs confirming one or the other can confuse town long enough into a critical mislynch that gives evils majority.

Absolutely not. By that logic, why not let a Vanguard survive a vet too? The relationship between Veteran and Mafia/Triad is already fine and balanced. No change is needed.