* * * SC2 Mafia Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Führer Trump https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47503 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : September 25th, 2020 11:22 PM Title : Führer Trump https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1i5IIYfFhI There's a lot of relatively bad stuff in there (I'll just mention the complete lack of mention of any form of legitimacy given to actually peaceful and righteous protesters to balance the strongly emphasised repression of rioters as an example), but timestamp 11:17 is what frightened me when I listened to his speech, because it looked like a Mussolini speech. Appealing to the nation's greatness and to the people's pride in it to demolish its enemies who want to weaken the great nation and make it "atone for its sins"? Come on. The only strong difference with Mussolini speeches is that he doesn't call to war against other countries, although he does escalate against China pretty strongly over time in his speeches in general. I was looking for Mussolini speeches to compare them with Trump's, and found this among other things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNX2V5wXDWg Heh. Looks like I wasn't the only one lol. I also found this article, and although it's not completely damning by itself, it's becoming hard to deny that he was inspired by fascist leaders, at the very least in the way he talks to the people... https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-ex-wife-once-said-he-kept-a-book-of-hitlers-speeches-by-his-bed-2015-8?op=1 Pleaaaaase... get him out........ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Auteur : Oberon Date : September 26th, 2020 02:23 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Trump has indicated he would first look at the results and if it looks like no foul play was involved he will accept it. However, if not... he implied he wouldn’t go down LOL. I don’t blame him one bit. You can’t shortcircuit democracy by stealing votes and expect nothing to happen. If war is the alternative, then maybe there should be a war. There’s been plenty of those in the past, but we all know where rigged elections lead to. FWIW, trump has said on numerous occasions that if he legitimately loses to Biden, he will just go play golf and we’ll never hear about him again. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Auteur : Oberon Date : September 26th, 2020 03:02 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump BTW, fascism and naziism cannot be equated, because they are not the same. It’s just a buzzword. If you really wanna call trump something, call him ‘authoritarian’. Kinda doesn’t feel right saying that, does it? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Auteur : Oberon Date : September 26th, 2020 03:04 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Thirdly, did you know Trump is the only US President in I believe 38 years not to have started another senseless war? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Auteur : Helz Date : September 26th, 2020 03:34 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Pleaaaaase... get him out........ I have a friend thats a big Trump supporter and another who is a hardcore anti-trump ANTIFA member. I dont really see much of a difference between the two of them. I very strongly disagree with both sides. I hate the rhetoric of hatred they both cast over society and I wish news organizations were held accountable for the destruction they cause. This election I am not voting. Both party's disgust me on many levels and I hate how their 'lesser of two evils' rhetoric is tearing my country apart. But it even sucks more with each side setting up some story before the election about how if they loose the election was rigged. I was looking forward to this election ending so it would fucking end but right now it looks like whichever side looses there will be some stupid "They cheated lets drag this shit out forever" nonsense. I personally just want this nightmare to be over and could give a fuck less who wins at this point. It really sucks how every other nation in the world feels like they should have some voice on the subject as well. What is the cost for peace of mind? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : September 26th, 2020 04:05 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump What are the odds that Trump will ever accept a loss at being fair lmao. If you seriously believe he will think that his loss was fair, you're either a gullible moron or straight up lying. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : September 26th, 2020 04:09 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I have a friend thats a big Trump supporter and another who is a hardcore anti-trump ANTIFA member. I dont really see much of a difference between the two of them. I very strongly disagree with both sides. I hate the rhetoric of hatred they both cast over society and I wish news organizations were held accountable for the destruction they cause. This election I am not voting. Both party's disgust me on many levels and I hate how their 'lesser of two evils' rhetoric is tearing my country apart. But it even sucks more with each side setting up some story before the election about how if they loose the election was rigged. I was looking forward to this election ending so it would fucking end but right now it looks like whichever side looses there will be some stupid "They cheated lets drag this shit out forever" nonsense. I personally just want this nightmare to be over and could give a fuck less who wins at this point. It really sucks how every other nation in the world feels like they should have some voice on the subject as well. What is the cost for peace of mind? Except only one candidate has outright said they will not accept the election results. Hint: it wasn't Biden: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/sep/17/joe-biden-i-will-accept-election-results/ Also this post reminds me of this meme lmao: https://i.imgur.com/LMCJBpU.jpg -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Auteur : Oberon Date : September 26th, 2020 04:16 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump yes, because trump wants to kill millions for their racial, ethnic religious etc background. I forgot about all those concentration camps they keep hidden on Mars -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : September 26th, 2020 04:20 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump yes, because trump wants to kill millions for their racial, ethnic religious etc background. I forgot about all those concentration camps they keep hidden on Mars What the fuck are you talking about lmao -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Auteur : Helz Date : September 26th, 2020 04:34 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump What are the odds that Trump will ever accept a loss at being fair lmao. If you seriously believe he will think that his loss was fair, you're either a gullible moron or straight up lying. Except only one candidate has outright said they will not accept the election results. Hint: it wasn't Biden: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/sep/17/joe-biden-i-will-accept-election-results/ Also this post reminds me of this meme lmao: https://i.imgur.com/LMCJBpU.jpg I feel like this reaction illustrates one side of the issue very well. Its no better from the trump supporters but it holds every bit as much conviction regardless of if the person is even a voter or lives in america. Its an attitude of republican vs democrat toxic enough to envelope the rest of the world with a smile. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Auteur : Helz Date : September 26th, 2020 04:36 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump My point is that once the election ends either side will claim their loss was not fair. I have never seen ground work laid for that argument in the way it has been for this election. Blame it on either side but it just spells hell for Americans regardless of which way the election goes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : September 26th, 2020 04:41 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump My point is that once the election ends either side will claim their loss was not fair. Except one side has said they will accept the results of the election, and the other has signalled they won't. You realize that your centrist conviction is also a form of "taking a side" as you like to say. Being steadfast in the opinion that both sides dumb and supporting one particular side is bad is as much of a misguided and toxic attitude as any democrat/republican's conviction in their candidate. I don't know why you take hold your so-called centrism in such condescendingly high regard when it's not unique or even particularly enlightening. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : September 26th, 2020 04:51 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I have a friend thats a big Trump supporter and another who is a hardcore anti-trump ANTIFA member. I dont really see much of a difference between the two of them. I very strongly disagree with both sides. I also have to show the point you inadvertently made here though. Antifa is the extremist fringe people on the American left, like the straight up anarchists and shit. Meanwhile, "big Trump supporters" are basically just normal Republicans. You're equating one side's political extremists to the other side's run-of-the-mill supporters. I don't think that's quite what you were trying to illustrate though. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Auteur : Helz Date : September 26th, 2020 04:54 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Except one side has said they will accept the results of the election, and the other has signalled they won't. You realize that your centrist conviction is also a form of "taking a side" as you like to say. Being steadfast in the opinion that both sides dumb and supporting one particular side is bad is as much of a misguided and toxic attitude as any democrat/republican's conviction in their candidate. I don't know why you take hold your so-called centrism in such condescendingly high regard when it's not unique or even particularly enlightening. Well for 1 I have to live here and deal with the actual results of this election. This equates to a personal sacrifice for my belief system in which I endure consequences for my actions (and inaction) I also heavily advocate that america functions as a plutocracy in some form of an oligarchy pretty much always as a Corporatocracy. I do believe my position that convoluting the ideas of socialism with subsidized capitalism are original. Maybe I am wrong but if I am I get to suffer the consequences of my being wrong which is much different from sitting on the outside declaring whats right or wrong for my country. What I do not understand is why the republican and democratic sides both push how the other side is wrong but the idea of both sides being wrong is viewed as so untennable. Why is it so radical to say both sides are wrong? Why is everyone so hell bent on accepting some 'lesser of two evils?' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Auteur : Helz Date : September 26th, 2020 05:02 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Except one side has said they will accept the results of the election, and the other has signalled they won't. You realize that your centrist conviction is also a form of "taking a side" as you like to say. Being steadfast in the opinion that both sides dumb and supporting one particular side is bad is as much of a misguided and toxic attitude as any democrat/republican's conviction in their candidate. I don't know why you take hold your so-called centrism in such condescendingly high regard when it's not unique or even particularly enlightening. Have you ever questioned your die hard dedication to a political party in a country you do not even live in? Consider that you are not unique in your belief. That theres a truckload of others who are also just as dedicated to American politics and pushing the rhetoric you push. Why? Think about it. How hard you fight for the democratic party. Sure you can call the republican party evil but how much better is the democratic party and how did you get so caught up in this fight your so willing to push against anything that could even be considered republican? This is the power of the toxic rhetoric produced by political groups. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Auteur : Oberon Date : September 26th, 2020 05:03 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump If we’re talking about the Republican Party as a whole, I think the party is quite horrible as well (although probably not as corrupt as the democrats are... yet). Trump himself, while not ideal, is, in my opinion, as a president, the best man for the job if you compare him with every president since ~1984-1990. He says lots of dumb things sometimes, and doesn’t always act the way he should, and IMO he trolls a bit too much, more than the President of the most powerful country in the world should. He’s also a bit narcissistic (which in some sense is good; the dude has been attacked and defamed every day since 2016 just for being, I think a normal person would’ve just collapsed, lol). But, if you look at what he does, he: a) Sealed a peace deal in the Middle East b) Cut taxes, just like he said he would c) Put pressure on China d) Did not start an additional stupid war I’d say those things are pretty damn good. One thing I like about him is paradoxically his loud mouth. He’s not afraid to call out the media and politicians for what they really are or are doing, which almost everyone else who is a politician seems to be reluctant on doing. Nobody has any balls anymore. That’s also why I love the fact that he banned CRT training in the government. If I had to choose between a non-Trump Republican and a Democrat... fuck, I do not know what I’d do. Tough choice. Pick your poison. Probably would still be voting Republican since the so-called third parties are actually even worse than the two main ones (which is impressive). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Auteur : Oberon Date : September 26th, 2020 05:08 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump FWIW, I also do not understand the hatred oops has for Republicans. While I strongly dislike the Democratic Party, I don’t hate people who vote Democrat and I don’t hate people who are not conservative or who are socialists. I only hate radical leftism, which is currently pushing absurd ideologies centered around the issue of ethnic/sexual/gender/religious/etc identity. It’s quite ironic that they’re the ones doing it... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Auteur : yzb25 Date : September 26th, 2020 05:10 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump It really sucks how every other nation in the world feels like they should have some voice on the subject as well. What is the cost for peace of mind? I can't imagine what it's like having to put up with everyone else shit-talk your country constantly these days but, depending on where we live and who we are, this election is going to impact our lives more than two elections in our own countries combined. Me and my dad were up all night after Qassam Soleimani was assassinated drinking coffee, watching news and shitting ourselves. We thought my stepmum could get caught in Syria.2 when Iran started firing missiles on American bases. The whole family's been arguing about Trump's reelection chances since. That doesn't even get into how Trump could impact the UK post-brexit. As the old saying goes, when America sneezes the world catches a cold. Go easy on us T_T -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : September 26th, 2020 05:18 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Well for 1 I have to live here and deal with the actual results of this election. This equates to a personal sacrifice for my belief system in which I endure consequences for my actions (and inaction) I also heavily advocate that america functions as a plutocracy in some form of an oligarchy pretty much always as a Corporatocracy. I do believe my position that convoluting the ideas of socialism with subsidized capitalism are original. Maybe I am wrong but if I am I get to suffer the consequences of my being wrong which is much different from sitting on the outside declaring whats right or wrong for my country. What I do not understand is why the republican and democratic sides both push how the other side is wrong but the idea of both sides being wrong is viewed as so untennable. Why is it so radical to say both sides are wrong? Why is everyone so hell bent on accepting some 'lesser of two evils?' I am skeptical to this radical centrism because it seems incredibly disingenuous to me. In this thread there are two sides: Trump saying that he may not accept the results of the election, and Biden saying that he will. And yet you continue to insist that, even in this context, both sides bad and centrism is the best. It's bizarre to me and reeks of the idea that you're performing mental gymnastics to maintain the illusion to yourself that you're perfectly in the middle and above all this bickering BS. Also Trump's victory very strongly influences my home country. I don't have a die hard dedication to the Democrats, I just think that the precedent set by Trump's presidency and the damage it does to the institution of democracy and truthfulness worldwide is damaging. Not to mention material damages to other countries. Just look at COVID; Trump talked shit about masks and spread misinformation so he could swing his balls around. As a result, the pandemic did massive damage in the states. Even if you insist I shouldn't care about a bunch of Americans dying, my home country's proximity to the US means that Americans fucking up the pandemic influences us as well. The first cases in my country came not from Europe or China, but from America. It's absurd to think that the politics of the largest democracy in the world, both economically and population-wise, shouldn't affect or even be the concern of people in other countries. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Auteur : Helz Date : September 26th, 2020 05:20 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I can't imagine what it's like having to put up with everyone else shit-talk your country constantly these days but, depending on where we live and who we are, this election is going to impact our lives more than two elections in our own countries combined. Me and my dad were up all night after Qassam Soleimani was assassinated drinking coffee, watching news and shitting ourselves. We thought my stepmum could get caught in Syria.2 when Iran started firing missiles on American bases. The whole family's been arguing about Trump's reelection chances since. That doesn't even get into how Trump could impact the UK post-brexit. As the old saying goes, when America sneezes the world catches a cold. Go easy on us T_T I hear you. Whats sad is small countries around the world are impacted much more by US elections that US citizens are. Its just exhausting to hear so many people outside of America to judge whats going on in America from social media. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Auteur : Helz Date : September 26th, 2020 05:29 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I am skeptical to this radical centrism because it seems incredibly disingenuous to me. In this thread there are two sides: Trump saying that he may not accept the results of the election, and Biden saying that he will. And yet you continue to insist that, even in this context, both sides bad and centrism is the best. It's bizarre to me and reeks of the idea that you're performing mental gymnastics to maintain the illusion to yourself that you're perfectly in the middle and above all this bickering BS. Also Trump's victory very strongly influences my home country. I don't have a die hard dedication to the Democrats, I just think that the precedent set by Trump's presidency and the damage it does to the institution of democracy and truthfulness worldwide is damaging. Not to mention material damages to other countries. Just look at COVID; Trump talked shit about masks and spread misinformation so he could swing his balls around. As a result, the pandemic did massive damage in the states. Even if you insist I shouldn't care about a bunch of Americans dying, my home country's proximity to the US means that Americans fucking up the pandemic influences us as well. The first cases in my country came not from Europe or China, but from America. It's absurd to think that the politics of the largest democracy in the world, both economically and population-wise, shouldn't affect or even be the concern of people in other countries. Sure, Maybe I am wrong. If trump gets re-elected and there is 0 blow back feel free to say 'I told you so' for the following year. What I am seeing in America is a lot of crazy shit from both sides on the mail system. Take my words for whatever but I think whichever side looses will be a very sore looser in this election. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Auteur : Voss Date : September 26th, 2020 09:21 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump If we’re talking about the Republican Party as a whole, I think the party is quite horrible as well (although probably not as corrupt as the democrats are... yet). Trump himself, while not ideal, is, in my opinion, as a president, the best man for the job if you compare him with every president since ~1984-1990. He says lots of dumb things sometimes, and doesn’t always act the way he should, and IMO he trolls a bit too much, more than the President of the most powerful country in the world should. He’s also a bit narcissistic (which in some sense is good; the dude has been attacked and defamed every day since 2016 just for being, I think a normal person would’ve just collapsed, lol). But, if you look at what he does, he: a) Sealed a peace deal in the Middle East b) Cut taxes, just like he said he would c) Put pressure on China d) Did not start an additional stupid war I’d say those things are pretty damn good. One thing I like about him is paradoxically his loud mouth. He’s not afraid to call out the media and politicians for what they really are or are doing, which almost everyone else who is a politician seems to be reluctant on doing. Nobody has any balls anymore. That’s also why I love the fact that he banned CRT training in the government. If I had to choose between a non-Trump Republican and a Democrat... fuck, I do not know what I’d do. Tough choice. Pick your poison. Probably would still be voting Republican since the so-called third parties are actually even worse than the two main ones (which is impressive). a) Cutting taxes for his rich friends during an economic upswing isn't isn't an accomplishment. b) He never released his tax returns, just like he said he would. c) He embraces support from white nationalists. d) He incited violence at his rallies and at protests. e) His goons used tear gas on American citizens so that Trump could get a photo op with the Bible. f) He expresses his support for conspiracy theorist QAnon. Domestically, this guy's a shit show and a threat to the democratic psyche of the American people. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Auteur : Voss Date : September 26th, 2020 09:22 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I don't really have the time today to play keyboard warrior today though. Maybe later. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : September 26th, 2020 10:42 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Trump has indicated he would first look at the results and if it looks like no foul play was involved he will accept it. However, if not... he implied he wouldn’t go down LOL. I don’t blame him one bit. You can’t shortcircuit democracy by stealing votes and expect nothing to happen. If war is the alternative, then maybe there should be a war. There’s been plenty of those in the past, but we all know where rigged elections lead to. FWIW, trump has said on numerous occasions that if he legitimately loses to Biden, he will just go play golf and we’ll never hear about him again. Yes, but it is terribly obvious that he will contest the election's result... he has been preparing the way for that for MONTHS with his "this election will be the biggest fraud in American history" and similar. BTW, fascism and naziism cannot be equated, because they are not the same. It’s just a buzzword. If you really wanna call trump something, call him ‘authoritarian’. Kinda doesn’t feel right saying that, does it? No no, I'm specifically calling him fascist. ..because it looked like a Mussolini speech. Appealing to the nation's greatness and to the people's pride in it to demolish its enemies who want to weaken the great nation and make it "atone for its sins"? Come on. The only strong difference with Mussolini speeches is that he doesn't call to war against other countries, although he does escalate against China pretty strongly over time in his speeches in general. I didn't call him a nazi, only a fascist. There's indeed a difference :P. ~~ Helz, the reason why people in other countries feel like they have something to say about it (or at least my reason) is because the US are still the leader of the Western bloc. If that country is screwed because it descends into a civil war or into authoritarianism, then we can all say hello to other, non-democratic powers such as China and Russia (sorry Russia, you're not democratic lol). As for both sides saying their loss wasn't fair if they lose, that is true, but the difference between them is that while Biden will just be angry and call Trump out for it and then call it a day, Trump could very well try to cling to power: he's preparing the way for that possibility. And if your point is "why not be at peace in your own country and leave us be", which is basically "it's not really your business", well... sorry, but the first democratic power worldwide remaining a strong democratic power is the business of pretty much everyone when it comes to geopolitics. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : September 29th, 2020 11:44 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Fuck Trump -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Auteur : Sylvanas Date : September 29th, 2020 02:31 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump As the old saying goes, when America sneezes the world catches a cold. The new saying states that America didn't sneeze because the cold virus is a liberal hoax intended to prevent Trump to steal money from his charities (but he did anyway). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Auteur : Firebringer Date : September 29th, 2020 05:48 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Except one side has said they will accept the results of the election, and the other has signalled they won't. You realize that your centrist conviction is also a form of "taking a side" as you like to say. Being steadfast in the opinion that both sides dumb and supporting one particular side is bad is as much of a misguided and toxic attitude as any democrat/republican's conviction in their candidate. I don't know why you take hold your so-called centrism in such condescendingly high regard when it's not unique or even particularly enlightening. Enlightened Centrism is the path forward. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Auteur : Firebringer Date : September 29th, 2020 05:50 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Fuck Trump Thats Stormy Daniels job -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : September 29th, 2020 06:01 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Enlightened Centrism is the path forward. And who's at the center of the State? The King. Long live Frederick the Great! What is "enlightened centrism" though? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Auteur : Firebringer Date : September 29th, 2020 08:40 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump And who's at the center of the State? The King. Long live Frederick the Great! What is "enlightened centrism" though? The idea that both sides can make good and bad points, and to understand those points and principles/values and to take those ideas and to craft a position which reflects more nuance -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Auteur : Exeter350 Date : September 29th, 2020 09:43 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump The idea that both sides can make good and bad points, and to understand those points and principles/values and to take those ideas and to craft a position which reflects more nuance Agreed. I think people get too fixated on specific details and fail to evaluate based on the big picture. What they should do is: (1) Compare and evaluate official issue-by-issue stance of each political party (what they SAY they will do ; Is their logic sound? ; Do I agree with this stance?) (2) Track past record to see what issues were actually followed through and what were not (will they do what they say?) (3) Apply #2 to #1 and re-evaluate considering the likelihood that so-and-so issues will be followed through (4) Cast vote But obviously there’ll be too much info involved for a casual politics discussion / heated Internet “debate” (lol how much info can they communicate effectively for big picture discussion?). In other words, online politics debates are superficial and narrow. They do not capture the overall picture comprehensively. They are good for getting additional viewpoints that people may miss out on their own. However, online discussions are not conclusive on their own. Ultimately, voters have the responsibility to do their own in-depth research before casting their votes. (Online / irl discussions do not count as research; I’m talking about actual fact finding, cross referencing, etc.) Unfortunately, when you have too many lazy / uneducated voters in a country, it is the junk votes that determine the outcome, not the properly-researched votes. As somebody else on the forums said recently, “What an intellectual disaster.” I’m just glad I don’t live in the States lol. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Auteur : Ash Date : October 1st, 2020 01:41 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Have you ever questioned your die hard dedication to a political party in a country you do not even live in? Consider that you are not unique in your belief. That theres a truckload of others who are also just as dedicated to American politics and pushing the rhetoric you push. Why? Think about it. How hard you fight for the democratic party. Sure you can call the republican party evil but how much better is the democratic party and how did you get so caught up in this fight your so willing to push against anything that could even be considered republican? Let's start here, you immediately assume that every person that votes for their party is a "die-hard" fanboy. Wrong on so many levels. Because you see people like Ganelon (not even American) on these forums, doesn't mean that every person that votes for Trump will be a die-hard fanboy. In modern USA, neither Trump or Biden are trying to convince the far-right or far-left to vote for them, they are both aiming for centrist/undecided voters. I also heavily advocate that america functions as a plutocracy in some form of an oligarchy pretty much always as a Corporatocracy. I do believe my position that convoluting the ideas of socialism with subsidized capitalism are original. Maybe I am wrong but if I am I get to suffer the consequences of my being wrong which is much different from sitting on the outside declaring whats right or wrong for my country. What I do not understand is why the republican and democratic sides both push how the other side is wrong but the idea of both sides being wrong is viewed as so untennable. Why is it so radical to say both sides are wrong? Why is everyone so hell bent on accepting some 'lesser of two evils?' Your shitty nihilistic take on politics is so cringe, it's like you were just born yesterday and have no idea how politics work. BOTH sides will push on how the other side is wrong, because we are in a TWO-PARTY SYSTEM. It's their jobs to shit smear each other in hopes of swaying undecided voters to vote, and in hopes of non-voter idiots like you to show up to a poll booth and vote. Both sides are going to be wrong, because again we are in a two-party system. Red or blue, there is no orange, no purple, no teal. Take global warming for example. Are you for or against global warming? I shouldn't even have to go in-depth about global warming because it's clear that Trump rolled back every Obama-era regulation in terms of slowing down global warming. There is no "maybe", it's just a clear yes or no. You're not smarter by not voting, you're just a clear-cut idiot. Your ideas aren't original. Just seems like you're a Bernie-bro that's in denial and doesn't want to vote for anyone else. Funny thing is that even Bernie wants Biden to win because he realizes how shitty and corrupt Trump is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO1o66Ti2bA I have a friend thats a big Trump supporter and another who is a hardcore anti-trump ANTIFA member. I dont really see much of a difference between the two of them. I very strongly disagree with both sides. I hate the rhetoric of hatred they both cast over society and I wish news organizations were held accountable for the destruction they cause. This election I am not voting. Both party's disgust me on many levels and I hate how their 'lesser of two evils' rhetoric is tearing my country apart. But it even sucks more with each side setting up some story before the election about how if they loose the election was rigged. I was looking forward to this election ending so it would fucking end but right now it looks like whichever side looses there will be some stupid "They cheated lets drag this shit out forever" nonsense. I personally just want this nightmare to be over and could give a fuck less who wins at this point. It really sucks how every other nation in the world feels like they should have some voice on the subject as well. What is the cost for peace of mind? You realize that antifa is short for anti-fascism, correct? Are you FOR fascism, or are you AGAINST fascism? Very simple take. Again, you can't disagree with both sides because it's a clear-cut FOR or AGAINST answer. The entirety of the Republican party ever since Trump's campaign took off, is to just run smear campaigns against the opposing party. To divide the country, shit-stir and cause race problems so that they can later point the finger at people that fight against systemic racism. Continue systemic racism, cut taxes for themselves, and continue reaping the farm of unfortunate individuals. You're really not smart and you really don't have any higher ground by saying "I'm not gonna vote haha I'm smart", because you're literally falling into what Republicans want you to do LOL. It was quite clear on the debate who actually cared about the well-being of America when Biden actually looked at the camera and Trump only cared about interrupting his valid arguments. I also have to show the point you inadvertently made here though. Antifa is the extremist fringe people on the American left, like the straight up anarchists and shit. Anti-fascism isn't extremist, and isn't radical. It's funny how everything that Trump disagrees with is immediately labeled as radical and extremist. Trump trying to weaponize the word "radical" on the debate floor was quite funny. Helz, if you were truly centrist, you would be stating good policies on both sides, instead of being the embodiment of pure nihilism. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : October 1st, 2020 01:53 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Like, let's be clear here. Both of these guys are dumbass idiots. They both had a handful of good moments during that debate but it was mostly garbage. They literally stopped mid-debate and started arguing about who interrupted the other person more. If you don't vote, and you are upset at the result of the election or you are mad at a policy being passed in the next 4 years, you are at fault. You have a chance to make your voice heard right now instead of just being tilted on online forums, and you're choosing not to take it. That's irresponsible. I will not be voting red in this election because I don't trust this country going into an economic recession from a man who has declared bankruptcy six times. I'm undecided on whether or not I want to vote for Emperor Joe Palpatine or third party. But I have a chance to make my voice count and I'm going to take it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 1st, 2020 02:18 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Like, let's be clear here. Both of these guys are dumbass idiots. They both had a handful of good moments during that debate but it was mostly garbage. They literally stopped mid-debate and started arguing about who interrupted the other person more. If you don't vote, and you are upset at the result of the election or you are mad at a policy being passed in the next 4 years, you are at fault. You have a chance to make your voice heard right now instead of just being tilted on online forums, and you're choosing not to take it. That's irresponsible. I will not be voting red in this election because I don't trust this country going into an economic recession from a man who has declared bankruptcy six times. I'm undecided on whether or not I want to vote for Emperor Joe Palpatine or third party. But I have a chance to make my voice count and I'm going to take it. D= stealth can vote now -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Auteur : theoneceko Date : October 1st, 2020 02:57 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Like, let's be clear here. Both of these guys are dumbass idiots. They both had a handful of good moments during that debate but it was mostly garbage. They literally stopped mid-debate and started arguing about who interrupted the other person more. If you don't vote, and you are upset at the result of the election or you are mad at a policy being passed in the next 4 years, you are at fault. You have a chance to make your voice heard right now instead of just being tilted on online forums, and you're choosing not to take it. That's irresponsible. I will not be voting red in this election because I don't trust this country going into an economic recession from a man who has declared bankruptcy six times. I'm undecided on whether or not I want to vote for Emperor Joe Palpatine or third party. But I have a chance to make my voice count and I'm going to take it. TRUMP 2020!!! MADE THAT TEXT RED AND BLOLDAND UNDDEERLING SO U ALL CAN GET MAD. ALSO MAKING THIS TEXT WHITE AND BLUE TO SHOW MY PATRIOTISM AND NATIONALISM SO PPL GET EVEN MORE MAD!!! key words are: GETTING PEOPLE MAD !!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Auteur : theoneceko Date : October 1st, 2020 02:59 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump TRUMP 2020!!! MADE THAT TEXT RED SO U ALL CAN GET MAD. ALSO MAKING THIS TEXT WHITE AND BLUE TO SHOW MY PATRIOTISM AND NATIONALISM SO PPL GET EVEN MORE MAD!!! key words are: GETTING PEOPLE MAD !!! PLS. NO ONE REPLY TO THIS AND IGNORE IT LIKE THE TROLL POST IT IS. I SPAM THIS IN SC2MAF GENERAL/ARCADE CHAT TO GET R E A C C T I O N S, BUT I EXPECT MORE FROM YOU ALL!!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 1st, 2020 03:17 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump both sides suck, its just that one 'side' sucks less. in that case, its just the president who sucks less. i have no idea whats gonna happen to america when trump leaves office, because you have to realize trump was the best candidate (still is). the two parties are absolutely horrendous, and the so-called 'third-parties' are even worse (which is an achievement). you have the libertarian party which is a club of completely naive/downright malevolent/power-hungry idiots, with a minority of normal people who are just pro-small government. the libertarian party is mostly ancap. they literally want to disestablish the state. if i have to choose between them and the democrats, i honestly don't know who i'd choose. idk what the libertarians would do if elected to power, but if they did exactly what they stated they would, i think a catastrophe bigger than all the communist purges would occur. i mean, capitalism is significantly more efficient than communism. many more would die. thats not to speak of the absurd corruption that their government system (if you can call it that) would allow. they want to make taxes OPTIONAL. how much more smoofer-brained can you get? imagine just buying out the police force LMFAO -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 1st, 2020 03:20 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Imagine seriously thinking that Trump sucks less -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Auteur : Norwee Date : October 1st, 2020 03:23 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I also heavily advocate that america functions as a plutocracy in some form of an oligarchy pretty much always as a Corporatocracy. I do believe my position that convoluting the ideas of socialism with subsidized capitalism are original. Maybe I am wrong but if I am I get to suffer the consequences of my being wrong which is much different from sitting on the outside declaring whats right or wrong for my country. Maybe you should consider the fact that USA has a lot of influence in the world. Wanna know why people don’t give a shit who wins the election in Denmark vs the USA? Because the USA has a huge army and line of influence that has caused a lot of change in the world. The invasion of Iraq toppled an entire country, so much for not meddling with other countries affairs eh? Bay of Pigs saw CIA trained troops openly attempting an coup. But of course Anerican exceptionalism seems to make you balk at the thought that other countries and people outside of the US care about what kind of country the USA is, and what it will become. Trump has been a shock to the world and seen the rise of look-alikes such as Borin Johnson in the UK. This isn’t an domestic issue. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 1st, 2020 03:27 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump i think taking the average trump supporter to indicate what a candidate is like is imo pretty weird. the average person is stupid. and, imo just like oops said, you're comparing the average trump supporter to the average antifa supporter. one is part of a minority group on the far left, the other is a relatively normal person. it just so happens that the average normal person is dumb, HOWEVER, you're missing the fact that 'most' people (and yes I know trump 'lost' the popular vote) voted for Trump in 2016. i dont like appeals to majority but honestly, if trump were as bad as people said, 48% of the population wouldn't have voted for him. i mean when you have people voting for a 'pedophile' and whatever else he got called, you gotta realize some of the bullshit people said about him (most of it, in fact) was either wrong or exaggerated. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 1st, 2020 03:29 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Boris Johnson isn't Trump though I respect Boris Johnson but the Conservative Party (including Johnson) is kind of... left wing, especially when you compare it to the republican party. I think Nigel Farage is a much better comparison, because whilst they are not the same (and I think Nigel Farage is superior to Trump, at least as a person), they are at least fairly similar. Except, idk if Nigel Farage has the strength to go through 4-8 years of people constantly slandering in the most absurd ways possible. I know Trump does. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 1st, 2020 03:39 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump i think taking the average trump supporter to indicate what a candidate is like is imo pretty weird. the average person is stupid. and, imo just like oops said, you're comparing the average trump supporter to the average antifa supporter. one is part of a minority group on the far left, the other is a relatively normal person. it just so happens that the average normal person is dumb, HOWEVER, you're missing the fact that 'most' people (and yes I know trump 'lost' the popular vote) voted for Trump in 2016. i dont like appeals to majority but honestly, if trump were as bad as people said, 48% of the population wouldn't have voted for him. i mean when you have people voting for a 'pedophile' and whatever else he got called, you gotta realize some of the bullshit people said about him (most of it, in fact) was either wrong or exaggerated. Your logic here is very bad. First of all, 48% of the population didn't vote for Trump. 45% of voters voted for Trump. Roughly 43% of eligible voters did not even vote. An estimated 232 million Americans were eligible to vote in 2016, and just under 63 million voted for Trump. So roughly 27% of the population. Just over a quarter. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/12/about-100-million-people-couldnt-be-bothered-to-vote-this-year/ Secondly, you are completely ignoring the nature of politics, and the fact that many votes FOR Trump were actually votes AGAINST Clinton, and vice versa. You can't just say "oh look, he got 45% of the vote and therefore things said about him must be bullshit cause otherwise people wouldn't vote for him". What on earth is that. I know plenty of conservatives that did not like Trump and voted for him solely because they were scared that Hilary was "of the devil and will destroy America" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 1st, 2020 03:46 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump yes, and an extra 3% not voting for him means he must be horrible. i forgot thats how percentages work. keeping the percentages the same, 55% of those who voted voted for clinton. i dont really see the difference, if 50% of people voted, the number is still relatively significant. me too! i am also one of those conservatives, i too would've seen my vote for trump as more of a vote against clinton because trump was... 1) painted by the media, 2) a media whore who didn't seem like he knew what he was doing, 3) just another TV star who wanted and loved publicity. that being said, trump's impressed me rather favorably. he's done well as president (IMO), and in any event better than I thought he would (even though he continues to say stupid things on a semi-regular basis). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 1st, 2020 03:49 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump yes, and an extra 3% not voting for him means he must be horrible. i forgot thats how percentages work. keeping the percentages the same, 55% of those who voted voted for clinton. i dont really see the difference, if 50% of people voted, the number is still relatively significant. me too! i am also one of those conservatives, i too would've seen my vote for trump as more of a vote against clinton because trump was... 1) painted by the media, 2) a media whore who didn't seem like he knew what he was doing, 3) just another TV star who wanted and loved publicity. that being said, trump's impressed me rather favorably. he's done well as president (IMO), and in any event better than I thought he would (even though he continues to say stupid things on a semi-regular basis). wtf are you even arguing -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 1st, 2020 04:00 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump On a slightly more on-topic note, I remember hearing the upper ranks of the US military aren't so keen on Trump, and probably wouldn't back him in a coup. So, I think realistically the worst case scenario is the republicans take it to the courts and drag out the transition of power, in the case of a democrat win. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 1st, 2020 04:03 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump What's more important is the precedent this sets. Trump has changed our understanding of political campaigns forever, and I fear Trump will be followed by more clever, more effective Trumps, both at home and abroad. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 1st, 2020 04:09 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Let's start here, you immediately assume that every person that votes for their party is a "die-hard" fanboy. Wrong on so many levels. Because you see people like Ganelon (not even American) on these forums, doesn't mean that every person that votes for Trump will be a die-hard fanboy. In modern USA, neither Trump or Biden are trying to convince the far-right or far-left to vote for them, they are both aiming for centrist/undecided voters. Your shitty nihilistic take on politics is so cringe, it's like you were just born yesterday and have no idea how politics work. BOTH sides will push on how the other side is wrong, because we are in a TWO-PARTY SYSTEM. It's their jobs to shit smear each other in hopes of swaying undecided voters to vote, and in hopes of non-voter idiots like you to show up to a poll booth and vote. Both sides are going to be wrong, because again we are in a two-party system. Red or blue, there is no orange, no purple, no teal. Take global warming for example. Are you for or against global warming? I shouldn't even have to go in-depth about global warming because it's clear that Trump rolled back every Obama-era regulation in terms of slowing down global warming. There is no "maybe", it's just a clear yes or no. You're not smarter by not voting, you're just a clear-cut idiot. Your ideas aren't original. Just seems like you're a Bernie-bro that's in denial and doesn't want to vote for anyone else. Funny thing is that even Bernie wants Biden to win because he realizes how shitty and corrupt Trump is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO1o66Ti2bA You realize that antifa is short for anti-fascism, correct? Are you FOR fascism, or are you AGAINST fascism? Very simple take. Again, you can't disagree with both sides because it's a clear-cut FOR or AGAINST answer. The entirety of the Republican party ever since Trump's campaign took off, is to just run smear campaigns against the opposing party. To divide the country, shit-stir and cause race problems so that they can later point the finger at people that fight against systemic racism. Continue systemic racism, cut taxes for themselves, and continue reaping the farm of unfortunate individuals. You're really not smart and you really don't have any higher ground by saying "I'm not gonna vote haha I'm smart", because you're literally falling into what Republicans want you to do LOL. It was quite clear on the debate who actually cared about the well-being of America when Biden actually looked at the camera and Trump only cared about interrupting his valid arguments. Anti-fascism isn't extremist, and isn't radical. It's funny how everything that Trump disagrees with is immediately labeled as radical and extremist. Trump trying to weaponize the word "radical" on the debate floor was quite funny. Helz, if you were truly centrist, you would be stating good policies on both sides, instead of being the embodiment of pure nihilism. This is a little disingenuous. The philosophy of Antifa is to prevent the rise of fascism, by any means necessary. They support the use of threats, arm-twisting and even physical violence in service of this goal. They define fascists performatively, meaning they will sometimes target people who deny being fascists. This means they reject the notion of a state monopoly on violence, even if that state is legitimate, which has been in place in all societies for a long ass time. That's pretty bloody radical. That said, they are a decentralised movement and different subgroups have varying approaches. Meaning some subgroups are more level headed, and some are more thick headed. P;edit I found this to be a really informative video, even if you disagree with the guy's ideology. (He's a Marxist who endorses Antifa) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bgwS_FMZ3nQ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Auteur : Mugy Date : October 1st, 2020 04:32 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Just to pick on something that I see again and again in these discussions. Trump is not tough on China; China LOVES Trump. Why? Because Trump is removing US influence from the south China region, now China can go back to the imperial China days of influencing Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, and the lot! Next stop Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Phillipines, and Australia! Do you seriously think the fucking trade war is actually bad for China? The TPPA would've cemented dependency between the pacific and the US. Sure the US would've lost money, but the US gets to tie the wealth of countless pacific nations to the US. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 1st, 2020 05:14 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump This is a little disingenuous. The philosophy of Antifa is to prevent the rise of fascism, by any means necessary. They support the use of threats, arm-twisting and even physical violence in service of this goal. They define fascists performatively, meaning they will sometimes target people who deny being fascists. This means they reject the notion of a state monopoly on violence, even if that state is legitimate, which has been in place in all societies for a long ass time. That's pretty bloody radical. That said, they are a decentralised movement and different subgroups have varying approaches. Meaning some subgroups are more level headed, and some are more thick headed. P;edit I found this to be a really informative video, even if you disagree with the guy's ideology. (He's a Marxist who endorses Antifa) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bgwS_FMZ3nQ Sorry, disingenuous isn't the right word. That implies I think you're scheming something lol. I just meant your attitude is a bit like calling people who oppose the pro-life movement anti-life. I'll stop spamming now. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : October 1st, 2020 08:36 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump i think taking the average trump supporter to indicate what a candidate is like is imo pretty weird. the average person is stupid. and, imo just like oops said, you're comparing the average trump supporter to the average antifa supporter. one is part of a minority group on the far left, the other is a relatively normal person. This is an awful comparison. It's like comparing a bicycle to a ferraria. The obvious issue here is that not every biden supporter is an antifa supporter. That would be like saying every trump supporter is a member of the proud boys or another white supremacy group. Most people are "relatively normal" people. Otherwise there wouldn't be normal. Even IF antifa were to be considered a "minority group" (which does not follow what Trump's FBI director has stated) brushing every biden supporter as "antifa" is disregarding a massive portion of his voting class. it just so happens that the average normal person is dumb, HOWEVER, you're missing the fact that 'most' people (and yes I know trump 'lost' the popular vote) voted for Trump in 2016. i dont like appeals to majority but honestly, if trump were as bad as people said, 48% of the population wouldn't have voted for him. Aside from the fact that most people did NOT vote for trump according to the popular vote and there shouldn't have been any quotes around 'most' (not arguing the verdict here by the way, if popular vote were how the election were decided it would not give rural counties like where i currently reside a strong voice in the vote)... Trump in the media was probably overexaggerated in 2016. I can't speak extremely much on that because I didn't follow the 2016 election because this is the first year I can vote. The amount of people genuinely crushed or depressed that hillary didn't win 2016 is honestly sad. It's the president, yeah, but a local mayor or city council election will probably effect your life way more. I just want a dude who won't send me to war and won't nuke the economy. There were definitely extremists on both sides though, and people way too happy that Trump won, or people who were way too happy that Hillary lost. Last election there was a debate about Obama and I recall Orpz posting a car with a bumper sticker with a noose that said "hang in there obama". Shit's wild on all sides. What I CAN say is that right now Trump has committed a long ass list of things that I not only morally or ethically disagree with, but he has also demonstrated an extreme disregard for his council and employees opinions. You can reference the debate where he dissed antifa as a group and then shot down the moderator when the moderator told him that the FBI director that HE elected said something else. I also do not want a president who advises white supremacy groups to "be ready". Any kind of supremacy group is toxic and I don't want a president who supports any of them, much less commands them like some kind of fucking militia. i mean when you have people voting for a 'pedophile' and whatever else he got called, you gotta realize some of the bullshit people said about him (most of it, in fact) was either wrong or exaggerated. This point is moot because both of the candidates are pedophiles and/or sex offenders who shouldn't be in office in the first place. yes, and an extra 3% not voting for him means he must be horrible. i forgot thats how percentages work. keeping the percentages the same, 55% of those who voted voted for clinton. i dont really see the difference, if 50% of people voted, the number is still relatively significant. No, the issue here is that 43% of voters didn't vote. We're missing a lot of data here. You're focusing on the wrong part of the post. Only roughly 1/4th of the American population actually voted for Trump last election. me too! i am also one of those conservatives, i too would've seen my vote for trump as more of a vote against clinton because trump was... 1) painted by the media, 2) a media whore who didn't seem like he knew what he was doing, 3) just another TV star who wanted and loved publicity. I will respectfully disagree with your result here. Your process and eval of trump makes sense, and I didn't like clinton either, but I would've probably voted clinton because I think she would be far more mature than trump. that being said, trump's impressed me rather favorably. he's done well as president (IMO), and in any event better than I thought he would (even though he continues to say stupid things on a semi-regular basis). Trump's handling of the corona outbreak is honestly downright depressing. My life comes first, not anything else he's done. I'm going to college to be an entertainer. My preferred career path would have me performing every day. Covid has been leaving people with permanent lung damage. Some of broadway's top performers who recovered from it still experience shortness of break and dizziness when they practice. If I catch covid and get permanent lung damage my career is over before it even starts. I can't risk that, not even looking at the fact that I suffer from a chest deformity that could theoretically put me at risk (I don't think it realistically does due to my singing training giving me stronk and healthy lungs.) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 1st, 2020 09:10 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump "This is like saying every Trump supporter is a member of the proud boys" Except I wasn't talking about the average Biden supporter, I was talking about the average antifa supporter. "Most people did not vote for Trump" Most people are voting for Trump now. And the most hilarious part about that election is that the media used to love Trump, but they started hating him because he 1) ran for president and wasn't part of the political club 2) insulted/attacked people who were (like Obama). Trump managed to steal that election even though literally nobody would have considered Trump a viable candidate. This goes to show just how shit the other candidates (I'm including Republicans here as well) were, that people were willing to risk an unconventional, bombastic, inexperienced, very disagreeable person for presidency, in spite of all the other choices that were there. Remember that the Republicans themselves couldn't provide a better candidate. That's how horrible the Republican party was (and is). "I don't want a President who advises white supremacist groups to be ready" More slander. What are you referring to? "Both candidates are pedophiles/sex offender" Don't believe everything you hear on TV. Politicians getting slandered for things that they didn't do isn't worthy of mention. I'm including Biden and nearly everyone who's gotten accused of pedophilia, from British royals to whoever else you want (unless there's strong evidence for it, like there was for Epstein). "Only 1/4 of the population voted for Trump" Only 1/2 of the population voted. I fail to see how that's relevant. What's the usual turnout? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 1st, 2020 10:34 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Most people are voting for Trump now. [citation needed] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 1st, 2020 10:45 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump [citation needed] HE NEVER GIVES ANY -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 1st, 2020 10:47 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump HE NEVER GIVES ANY Neither does his president, so I guess it's appropriate. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 1st, 2020 11:07 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Well if you look at the polls, and if you consider the polls to be accurate (watch what happened previously), most people, of a significant proportion, ARE voting for trump. [citation needed] https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/presidential-polls-trump-biden - U.S. as a whole, Biden is +8 (if polls are as wrong as in 2016, then +5) https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/ - Biden leading significantly https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-tight-race-in-ohio-biden-tops-trump-in-nevada-and-pennsylvania - According to Fox News, Biden leads Trump in Nevada and Pennsylvania. Which polls do I need to look at to see Trump winning "significantly"? Stormfront's poll? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 1st, 2020 11:10 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump "I don't want a President who advises white supremacist groups to be ready" More slander. What are you referring to? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xumSYFtQIt0 come on lol Antifa is extreme left and isn't innocent, that is true... but it's definetly not true that the right has nothing to do with the riots either (if moderate left had been listened to, the issues causing riots wouldn't be there anyway). But most importantly, whether you agree with my views on the riots or not, you have to admit that Trump literally told a known fascist group to "stand back and stand by". -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 1st, 2020 11:48 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Well firstly, I did not state that Trump was winning at all. I said Trump had a significant number of voters -- 41%, most polls show him somewhere between the 40 - 50% range. Why would you misconstrue my words like that? Even the 40% is a significant portion of people, worthy of being "most", as Oberon would describe. Of course, not a majority, but we know that majority vote wins elections, right? Dude, I know how to scroll up by 1 post. This is what you said: Well if you look at the polls, and if you consider the polls to be accurate (watch what happened previously), most people, of a significant proportion, ARE voting for trump. You said according to polls, most people (of a significant proportion, which I took to mean by a significant margin) are voting for Trump. According to polls (which I linked to you), that is not the case, and it seems like most people are voting for Biden (aka Biden is winning). The only poll I found that didn't indicate Biden was just flat out ahead was the Fox News one, which said Biden was ahead in key battleground states and that they were tied in others (aka not "most people" voting for Trump, and definitely not by a large margin). So which polls were you referring to? lol at this whole "how could you twist my words?" spiel. Obvious scum tactic is obvious. Plotato -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 1st, 2020 11:55 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Dude, I know how to scroll up by 1 post. This is what you said: You said according to polls, most people (of a significant proportion, which I took to mean by a significant margin) are voting for Trump. According to polls (which I linked to you), that is not the case, and it seems like most people are voting for Biden (aka Biden is winning). The only poll I found that didn't indicate Biden was just flat out ahead was the Fox News one, which said Biden was ahead in key battleground states and that they were tied in others (aka not "most people" voting for Trump, and definitely not by a large margin). So which polls were you referring to? lol at this whole "how could you twist my words?" spiel. Obvious scum tactic is obvious. Plotato You're arguing with Potato -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 1st, 2020 11:57 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump You're arguing with Potato Don't be fooled by a Jester claim. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 2nd, 2020 12:05 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Jeez you are no fun at all. I could pick up the new oxford dictionary and see "lysergic" under the definition of "actually", and perhaps "narcissist" too. It's actually a precursor chemical for LSD. Anyway, if my basement was flooded up to 40% of the total volume would I say, oh well, its not at halfway capacity, guess I'll ignore it the situation. If I had a glass that was 40% full, I would not say "most of this glass is full" because I know what words mean. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Auteur : Plotato Date : October 2nd, 2020 12:14 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I feel so reassured that I can sit on airplanes knowing that the plane will always fly over your head, even for one as inflated as your lexicon! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 05:30 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I don't trust the polls. All I know is that many democrats this summer are voting for Trump. Nobody likes Biden or those riots. The riots are effectively a massive "Joe Biden for President rally". And yeah as far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no way Trump won't win this election lol. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 05:46 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xumSYFtQIt0 come on lol Antifa is extreme left and isn't innocent, that is true... but it's definetly not true that the right has nothing to do with the riots either (if moderate left had been listened to, the issues causing riots wouldn't be there anyway). But most importantly, whether you agree with my views on the riots or not, you have to admit that Trump literally told a known fascist group to "stand back and stand by". "It's definitely not true that the right has nothing to do with the riots" No, it is true. The overwhelming majority of the rioters were anarchists/BLM/insert-your-other-left-wing-group-here. "Stand back and stand by" What Trump said is that he isn't concerned about extremist right wing groups (because their... influence and numbers are vanishingly small), as most of "what's happening is coming from the left". I actually watched that and I agreed with him. Did you know Chris Wallace is a member of the Democratic Party? So much for Fox News being hard-right. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 05:48 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump [citation needed] https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/presidential-polls-trump-biden - U.S. as a whole, Biden is +8 (if polls are as wrong as in 2016, then +5) https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/ - Biden leading significantly https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-tight-race-in-ohio-biden-tops-trump-in-nevada-and-pennsylvania - According to Fox News, Biden leads Trump in Nevada and Pennsylvania. Which polls do I need to look at to see Trump winning "significantly"? Stormfront's poll? Those polls are I'm pretty sure fake or wrong. That's what happened to the polls in 2016, too. Also, it's a literal fantasy that more people would vote for Biden than for Trump. Biden doesn't inspire confidence in anyone, he's literally senile lol. Edit: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/02/us-election-polls-tracker-who-is-leading-swing-states-donald-trump-joe-biden I found an aggregate of multiple polls showing Biden winning several states that Trump won in 2016, and that is literally a fantasy. Do you really think Trump has lost voters between 2016 and 2020? Because he hasn't. I personally know many people who are very anti-Trump over here who've told me they would vote for Trump if they were American simply because all other options were untenable. Joe Rogan, who's a Bernie Sanders supporter (can't get more left than that), also said he would vote for Trump over Biden, simply because he would vote for anyone over Biden. Those polls are so wrong you have to wonder if they correct for sampling bias or indeed if they willfully engage in it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 65] Auteur : Norwee Date : October 2nd, 2020 06:18 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Trump caught Covid i just heard. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 66] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 2nd, 2020 06:24 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Trump caught Covid i just heard. The irony is something else. Honestly, you couldn't make this stuff up. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 67] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : October 2nd, 2020 08:59 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "It's definitely not true that the right has nothing to do with the riots" No, it is true. The overwhelming majority of the rioters were anarchists/BLM/insert-your-other-left-wing-group-here. "Stand back and stand by" What Trump said is that he isn't concerned about extremist right wing groups (because their... influence and numbers are vanishingly small), as most of "what's happening is coming from the left". I actually watched that and I agreed with him. Did you know Chris Wallace is a member of the Democratic Party? So much for Fox News being hard-right. lmao ok He wasn't asked to comment on left wing groups. Left wing extremism is just as bad as right wing extremism. Trump was asked to condone right wing supremacy groups and he couldn't. He physically could not. It doesn't matter whether or not he's concerned about them, what matters is whether or not he shuts them down, because like it or not, a lot of these groups support and follow trump. They would listen if he said to fuck off. They will definitely listen if he says "stand back and stand by". At this point its clear you're delusional. As in FM, if you come to a conclusion before you do the research, all of the research you do will magically support your conclusion. Even if faced with evidence that disproves it you'll still be focused on that end goal. Let it be clear here that I don't think Trump is fascist or that he'd try to remove the two term limit or anything. I do think that he is definitely not the choice. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 68] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : October 2nd, 2020 09:07 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "Both candidates are pedophiles/sex offender" Don't believe everything you hear on TV. Politicians getting slandered for things that they didn't do isn't worthy of mention. I'm including Biden and nearly everyone who's gotten accused of pedophilia, from British royals to whoever else you want (unless there's strong evidence for it, like there was for Epstein). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H5NJZMDumY For the record I fucking hate the music and editing on this video but it gets the point across https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormy_Daniels%E2%80%93Donald_Trump_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations This isn't just "the media". These are genuine people. And there are around 100 of them coming out against Trump. That's ridiculous. I don't care about political policy at that point. I care about electing someone who isn't a fucking predator. It's insane that I can't choose to do that this year. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 69] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 2nd, 2020 09:30 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Some of the paedophillia accusations in recent years have been very dubious. But the accusations against Prince Andrew hold a lot of weight. He made several very absurd statements in an interview intended to clear his name of the accusations, including the claim that he has a disorder that prevents him from sweating due to "trauma from the Falklands war" and a claim that he couldn't have been with the minor on the night of intercourse 20 years ago because he remembers being at a pizza express that day (he remembers going to pizza express that exact day because it was a pizza express he typically doesn't go to) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 70] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 2nd, 2020 09:35 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/11/17/prince-andrew-pizza-express/ ^this article is really funny and also horrible. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 71] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 2nd, 2020 09:50 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "It's definitely not true that the right has nothing to do with the riots" No, it is true. The overwhelming majority of the rioters were anarchists/BLM/insert-your-other-left-wing-group-here. "Stand back and stand by" What Trump said is that he isn't concerned about extremist right wing groups (because their... influence and numbers are vanishingly small), as most of "what's happening is coming from the left". I actually watched that and I agreed with him. Did you know Chris Wallace is a member of the Democratic Party? So much for Fox News being hard-right. But he was asked specifically to condemn them... He's not saying he "isn't concerned" about them, he's literally telling them to "STAND BY", that's his words. Also, I don't know Chris Wallace and don't watch Fox News, so the "Fake News" narrative doesn't work here :P. And sure, the majority of the rioters were from the left, but the original protesters were right to protest, and if there hadn't been a real issue, there would have been no protests leading to no riots and to no radicalisation. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 72] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 2nd, 2020 09:53 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Imagine seeing riots under a Trump presidency, and somehow coming to the conclusion that "a vote for Biden = a vote for more riots" and "a vote for Trump = a vote for less riots" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 73] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 10:21 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump But he was asked specifically to condemn them... He's not saying he "isn't concerned" about them, he's literally telling them to "STAND BY", that's his words. Also, I don't know Chris Wallace and don't watch Fox News, so the "Fake News" narrative doesn't work here :P. And sure, the majority of the rioters were from the left, but the original protesters were right to protest, and if there hadn't been a real issue, there would have been no protests leading to no riots and to no radicalisation. He did actually denounce them later, and said he didn't know anything about them (tbh he should've said so at start, but thats just Trump for you). Anyways, idk much about them either. That was literally the first time I've heard of them. 'Legitimate issues to protest' To some degree, yes. The police seem to have a bit too much power in America (that or they aren't well-trained enough). The data does not indicate that the police is racist (which... think about it for a second: in order for a government organization like the police to be racist like that, they need to have racist people recruiting other racist people to become cops, KEEP it SOMEHOW hidden from the rest of the population, and going 'hey, go arrest more black people than white people, I won't care'. like seriously has anyone actually thought about the implications of that?), however, which is what most of the protests and the riots were about. That being said, I'm not sure what your point with the protesters having a legitimate point is, unless you're arguing that Trump failed to fix that or caused it; which is wrong. The number of police shootings of unarmed people has decreased since 2016. I don't even necessarily think Trump had anything to do with that decrease, it's just strange to lay that at his feet. Also, at the end of the day, I think the influence/danger posed by/the membership of right-wing extremist groups is exaggerated. KKK has what, a few thousand members? And the proud boys have a couple hundred. And yet, the head of the FBI says white supremacists are the biggest threat in the country ??? I don't see white supremacists looting stores or beating people senseless on the street just for carrying the American flag; its not that they wouldn't do harm, its just that... there's very, very few of them. Nazism has such a tainted past that nobody in the world is a nazi right now. No, right now the real danger is coming from left (and IMO, although right now it isn't such a big threat, the Libertarian Party also has the 'potential' to become one, assuming people will actually vote for them which I don't think will happen). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 74] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 10:27 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I also think the decrease in police shootings has many variables influencing it, though IMO BLM has ironically played a huge part in it indirectly. White cops who don't want to be seen as racist will try to avoid shooting blacks even if it means taking a (personal) risk. If you were a BLM supporter, you would've expected police shootings to go up after Trump got elected President. Lo and behold, the complete opposite happened: they went down, thus heavily discrediting the theory of institutional racism. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 75] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 2nd, 2020 11:45 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I also think the decrease in police shootings has many variables influencing it Why lie about something so easily verifiable? https://killedbypolice.net/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 76] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 2nd, 2020 12:02 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Why lie about something so easily verifiable? https://killedbypolice.net/ I wish I could rep every one of your posts -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 77] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 12:51 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump those are the total fatal police shootings. these include police shootings of ARMED suspects. the number of unarmed people killed by police has decreased. it isnt even a very high number and actually never was. https://dailycaller.com/2019/11/24/epidemic-racist-police-shootings/ last year for instance, only exactly 40 unarmed people died shot by police. MANY more policemen die in the line of duty. https://dailycaller.com/2020/06/03/tucker-carlson-police-shootings-genocide/ also, if we're going to engage in blatant personal attacks and call what other people are saying "lies" without even verifying if you're correct, you better buckle up, mate. here's the statistics for 2019: https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/hans-bader/narrative-racist-police-killings-melts-when-you-know-these-stats also, the stats for 2020: https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/09/chart-of-the-day-police-shootings-of-unarmed-people-are-down/ the narrative breaks down. unarmed police shootings are down PRECISELY because people don't want to be seen as racist/want to avoid another George Floyd incident. the data simply doesn't support that theory. i'd post a video by tucker carlson where he actually mentioned the total number of police shootings of unarmed suspects over the years, but a) I can't find it b) i know you dont like tucker. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 78] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 2nd, 2020 01:14 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump those are the total fatal police shootings. these include police shootings of ARMED suspects. the number of unarmed people killed by police has decreased. it isnt even a very high number and actually never was. https://dailycaller.com/2019/11/24/epidemic-racist-police-shootings/ last year for instance, only exactly 40 unarmed people died shot by police. MANY more policemen die in the line of duty. https://dailycaller.com/2020/06/03/tucker-carlson-police-shootings-genocide/ also, if we're going to engage in blatant personal attacks and call what other people are saying "lies" without even verifying if you're correct, you better buckle up, mate. here's the statistics for 2019: https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/hans-bader/narrative-racist-police-killings-melts-when-you-know-these-stats also, the stats for 2020: https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/09/chart-of-the-day-police-shootings-of-unarmed-people-are-down/ the narrative breaks down. unarmed police shootings are down PRECISELY because people don't want to be seen as racist/want to avoid another George Floyd incident. the data simply doesn't support that theory. i'd post a video by tucker carlson where he actually mentioned the total number of police shootings of unarmed suspects over the years, but a) I can't find it b) i know you dont like tucker. Denounce white supremacy, NOW. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 79] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 01:26 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump but im not white im jewish i cant be a white supremacist :P -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 80] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 2nd, 2020 01:42 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Why won't you denounce white supremacy? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 81] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:01 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump do you really want me to go on full troll mode? lol im not denouncing it for the same reason i didnt ask you to denounce antifa: if youre an antifa supporter, that's YOUR problem, not mine. i aint gonna deal with someone else's issues. also, denouncing something is incredibly easy and means absolutely nothing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 82] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:06 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump oh shit, saint peter hath blessed us with plotato -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 83] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:21 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump those are the total fatal police shootings. Wow, an almost textbook example of moving the goal posts. “Police shootings have decreased.” “No they haven’t.” “Obviously I meant police shootings of unarmed people! How could you twist my words and personally attack me? Muh victimhood.” It’s also baffling to me that you can acknowledge something like “police are being more careful not to murder unarmed people due to the BLM movement” while simultaneously supporting a president who claims the BLM movement is a bad thing that hasn’t accomplished anything except rioting. Like the cognitive dissonance is remarkable - you can’t make the jump to “maybe there was a problem to begin with, if suddenly the police aren’t just executing suspects after months of civil unrest over police executing unarmed suspects.” , though IMO BLM has ironically played a huge part in it indirectly. Btw, this is not what “indirectly” means, nor is this ironic. If the police are killing fewer unarmed people because they are worries about negative attention from the public because of BLM, then there is nothing indirect about that - that’s a direct result of the BLM movement. And if that is the case, it’s not ironic - it’s exactly what I would expect to happen. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 84] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:34 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I don't denounce antifa because I think antifa is pretty cool guys. I denounce white supremacy. Why don't you want to denounce white supremacy? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 85] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:35 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump 'moving the goal posts' having a discussion on something is not moving the goal posts. the change in the total number of deaths is irrelevant if those were attributed to people committing. the best metric is how many unarmed people get killed by police, because there is a much higher probability that one is innocent if unarmed than if they are armed. much, much higher. its a better metric. a lot of those 'deaths' of armed suspects can literally just be people pointing guns at policemen or stupidly reaching for their guns when stopped by police, or some other bullshit like genuinely shooting at cops. its a lot harder for unarmed people to pose a genuine threat, which is those are the ones you want to look at, and fortunately, theres not even that many unarmed shootings. tucker carlson broke them down (the ones for 2019) in that video i just linked. 'it's not ironic' considering that BLM has been saying that police are racist and whatnot, i find it pretty damn ironic, if you ask me. primarily because BLM supporters would expect police brutality and whatnot to have INCREASED, not DECREASED, since 2016. the data literally contradicts this theory. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 86] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:38 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I don't denounce antifa because I think antifa is pretty cool guys. I denounce white supremacy. Why don't you want to denounce white supremacy? i don't give a shit about denouncing anyone, idk why thats relevant on a forum that only around 10-20 people frequent... i honestly think this is taking things FAR too seriously lol (although that was already the case... pages back). like, what? what the fuck do you think "denouncing antifa" or "denouncing white supremacy" does? thats just a form of virtue signalling in this context LOL. sure the president should, but there needs to be a recipient. who is the recipient? everyone else on the forum? lol -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 87] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:42 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Why is it so hard for you to say the words "white supremacy is bad"? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 88] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:42 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump also, you're failing to take into account the fact that we DON'T know who the people that didn't get shot this time around were. police being afraid of shooting suspects isn't necessarily a good thing. maybe they avoided shooting genuinely innocent people or maybe they avoided shooting criminals who went on to kill others. further, officers are putting themselves at risk by doing these things. and its quite ironic that policemen have been getting a bad rep because honestly, a lot more policemen get killed every year fighting crime than unarmed civilians do (from cop shootings). 41 have already died this year. and only around 10-20 unarmed people died. furthermore, look at New York. after BLM got what it wanted (defunding the police), the crime rate exploded. they don't care about black lives. in fact, they don't care about any lives, at all. and how ironic that many of these high-level dudes pushing this movement are themselves WHITE, not black. just goes to show how much some people would sacrifice in the pursuit of power. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 89] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:43 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Why is it so hard for you to say the words "white supremacy is bad"? oh, white supremacy is bad. but, probably because im a white supremacist, amirite? :weed: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 90] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:44 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump No, all you have to just do is denounce white supremacy. It's really not hard... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 91] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:45 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump also completely off-topic btw. i dont see what white supremacy has to do with police shootings of unarmed people, unless you weren't trying to make a point about that, and your intent is simply to troll and to move away from a part of the conversation that you don't like? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 92] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:45 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I've done it and I'm not a white supremacist... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 93] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:45 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump oops_ur_dead confirmed scum -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 94] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:48 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Why is it so hard? I denounce white supremacy, why can't you? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 95] Auteur : Ash Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:51 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump and how ironic that many of these high-level dudes pushing this movement are themselves WHITE, not black. just goes to show how much some people would sacrifice in the pursuit of power. Yeah, why are white people marching with black people? Why aren't we segregating the blacks from the whites? TRUMP DO SOMETHING. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Civil_Rights_March_on_Washington%2C_D.C._%28Dr._Martin_Luther_King%2C_Jr._and_Mathew_Ahmann_in_a_crowd.%29_-_NARA_-_542015_-_Restoration.jpg -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 96] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:58 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump having a discussion on something is not moving the goal posts Making a general, inaccurate statement and then when correctly called out on it trying to spin it as a much more specific statement that wasn’t reflected in the original post = moving the goal posts. the change in the total number of deaths is irrelevant if those were attributed to people committing. It’s relevant when you make a super broad statement like “police shootings are down” when that isn’t the case. the best metric is how many unarmed people get killed by police, because there is a much higher probability that one is innocent if unarmed than if they are armed. much, much higher. So those open carrying NRA-types are far, far more likely to be criminals? I always suspected that was the case. Clearly the police need to crack down on open carry, by your own logic. i find it pretty damn ironic, I find it ironic that you admit that before BLM the police were unnecessarily killing unarmed people while still trying to claim that there is no issue with racism in policing. Because I know what irony is. Protip: it’s NOT like rain on your wedding day. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 97] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 2nd, 2020 02:59 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Why is it so hard for you to say the words "white supremacy is bad"? I have a theory. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 98] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 03:03 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Making a general, inaccurate statement and then when correctly called out on it trying to spin it as a much more specific statement that wasn’t reflected in the original post = moving the goal posts. It’s relevant when you make a super broad statement like “police shootings are down” when that isn’t the case. So those open carrying NRA-types are far, far more likely to be criminals? I always suspected that was the case. Clearly the police need to crack down on open carry, by your own logic. I find it ironic that you admit that before BLM the police were unnecessarily killing unarmed people while still trying to claim that there is no issue with racism in policing. Because I know what irony is. Protip: it’s NOT like rain on your wedding day. "before BLM the police were unnecessarily killing people" no, i claimed no such thing. again, we don't know who the people they would've killed were. maybe they were completely innocent or maybe they were ted bundies. the world will never know. "making a general, inaccurate statement" my statement was not inaccurate. the number of unarmed deaths by police is very relevant, being much more indicative of "police brutality" than the number of armed deaths. "NRA-types are criminals" NRA types don't get shot by police. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 99] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 03:06 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump lmao what is that -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 100] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 2nd, 2020 03:06 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump NRA types don't get shot by police. https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/09/rittenhouse-1.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1 They get a bottle of water and pat on the back instead. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 101] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 2nd, 2020 03:08 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump lmao -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 102] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 2nd, 2020 03:18 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump lmao Oh yeah, gun violence, hilaaaaaarious. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 103] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 2nd, 2020 07:45 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump This is a not exactly friendly reminder to keep posts on topic. Spammy/unrelated posts will be moved/deleted and infracted. ~~ White supremacists and the mentality they bring, along with what they influence directly or indirectly, certainly cause a lot of racial tensions, and racial tensions eventually lead to police shooting innocent black people (or to police shooting people who aren't innocent but don't need to be shot because of their origins)... But all of this is past the point! Why would the President of the USA be so reluctant to condemn white supremacists, be they reponsible of anything related to riots or not? That is a red flag by itself. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 104] Auteur : Firebringer Date : October 3rd, 2020 06:08 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/09/rittenhouse-1.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=618&h=410&crop=1 They get a bottle of water and pat on the back instead. I am shocked any time someone posts a picture of kyle rittenhouse in order to make some weird point online. Its like posting a picture of nicholas sandman to prove a point -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 105] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 3rd, 2020 10:16 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I find it so bizarre that some people are so mentally susceptible to right-wing propaganda that they believe everything that certain demagogues say about America, despite any evidence shown to the contrary, and without ever even having set foot in America, as well as meeting countless actual American people who tell them things that go against what they believe. Absolutely perplexing. Is it some sort of smoofness in one's brain that leads to them believing a set of "strong men" over facts? Right-wingers will often say "Jordan Peterson said this" and "Sean Hannity said that", meanwhile I couldn't name a single leftist or even centrist popular figure if you put a gun to my head. I once had someone show me a photoshopped Facebook screenshot as evidence of something. I pointed out that it was obviously photoshopped and asked them to provide me with more evidence. They did; a tweet of Jordan Peterson linking to the same photoshopped screenshot. I think this is a sort of mental predisposition that totalitarian governments have previously tried to tap into and it seems to be successful. Powerful "men of the people" like Stalin, Hitler, Goebbels, the Kim family, etc. And now in the information era, we see it turned up to 11. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 106] Auteur : Ash Date : October 3rd, 2020 11:34 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I find it funny how you guys still bother arguing with Ganelon. He'll always overlook the evidence you provide him and just come up with another shit take. Why bother? Trump supporters don't care that most of Trump's decision has been harmful to the country. They'll focus on 1 or 2 shit takes and try to ride the train as long as they can. The pride is too big to swallow. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 107] Auteur : Mike Date : October 3rd, 2020 12:59 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Except only one candidate has outright said they will not accept the election results. Hint: it wasn't Biden: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/sep/17/joe-biden-i-will-accept-election-results/ Also this post reminds me of this meme lmao: https://i.imgur.com/LMCJBpU.jpg I actually watched the debate live on C-span. I will tell you Binden was Flip flopping. All he wanted to do was Look in cameras with 0 Facts. and say a Bunch of crap. Was Trump a bully to Biden hell yes. But Who do you want running the country Some one who stands up for the Facts or some one who cant even get the facts out strait then when asked to stant any say over and over NO YOU NO YOU NO YOU. All biden did was say No you over and over. I wanted to see what he stood for. All he did was say Trump is evil Trump is bad. NO YOU. over and over. He never told us what he stood for. I was not a trump supporter or Biden. But I would never Vote Biden for President. And anyone that would well God help us. because we will be screwed hard. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 108] Auteur : Mike Date : October 3rd, 2020 01:05 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump This is a not exactly friendly reminder to keep posts on topic. Spammy/unrelated posts will be moved/deleted and infracted. ~~ White supremacists and the mentality they bring, along with what they influence directly or indirectly, certainly cause a lot of racial tensions, and racial tensions eventually lead to police shooting innocent black people (or to police shooting people who aren't innocent but don't need to be shot because of their origins)... But all of this is past the point! Why would the President of the USA be so reluctant to condemn white supremacists, be they reponsible of anything related to riots or not? That is a red flag by itself. He wasnt. They told him to say that. He was looking at them like really? they then told Trump to say it again so he said fine and said it. I am reading so many news and posts that are just Lies. I watched it live on Cspan. Most of what is cliped and said is BS and made in a diffrent light. Like I said I am Not on a side I like facts to be facts. And the fact is Trump was Overbearing yes. but He wanted the facts and truth to be told and I for one respect that. Biden was dealing in Falsehoods. Trump was an annoying Townie Biden was So so Slimy and Scummy. No U -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 109] Auteur : Mike Date : October 3rd, 2020 01:07 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I find it so bizarre that some people are so mentally susceptible to right-wing propaganda that they believe everything that certain demagogues say about America, despite any evidence shown to the contrary, and without ever even having set foot in America, as well as meeting countless actual American people who tell them things that go against what they believe. Absolutely perplexing. Is it some sort of smoofness in one's brain that leads to them believing a set of "strong men" over facts? Right-wingers will often say "Jordan Peterson said this" and "Sean Hannity said that", meanwhile I couldn't name a single leftist or even centrist popular figure if you put a gun to my head. I once had someone show me a photoshopped Facebook screenshot as evidence of something. I pointed out that it was obviously photoshopped and asked them to provide me with more evidence. They did; a tweet of Jordan Peterson linking to the same photoshopped screenshot. I think this is a sort of mental predisposition that totalitarian governments have previously tried to tap into and it seems to be successful. Powerful "men of the people" like Stalin, Hitler, Goebbels, the Kim family, etc. And now in the information era, we see it turned up to 11. because people are lazy and want to Sheep others. No one will take the time to Watch C-Span and see what happened for themselfs. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 110] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 3rd, 2020 01:59 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I watched the whole debate, the last half live and the first half that I had missed later. We had Trump screaming about invalidity of the democratic process while Biden was saying the military has been voting like people will vote this year for a long time. We had Trump coming back to his "forest management only" stuff when there is scientific evidence of climate change and when it's rather obvious that it favors wildfires; Biden supporting the other side. Biden wanted to save Obamacare, to make greener plans (makes sense when you see wildfires and hurricanes). I mean, there sure were some "no u", but that's true on both sides, and saying that Trump isn't going full personal attacks pretty often is just not true. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 111] Auteur : Ash Date : October 3rd, 2020 03:42 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I actually watched the debate live on C-span. I will tell you Binden was Flip flopping. All he wanted to do was Look in cameras with 0 Facts. and say a Bunch of crap. Was Trump a bully to Biden hell yes. But Who do you want running the country Some one who stands up for the Facts or some one who cant even get the facts out strait then when asked to stant any say over and over NO YOU NO YOU NO YOU. All biden did was say No you over and over. I wanted to see what he stood for. All he did was say Trump is evil Trump is bad. NO YOU. over and over. He never told us what he stood for. I was not a trump supporter or Biden. But I would never Vote Biden for President. And anyone that would well God help us. because we will be screwed hard. No, you didn't watch the debate live. Either you're trolling, you're straight up lying, or your IQ falls below the average American IQ. Going to assume the latter because of your last sentence, and you must be another person thats intimidated by Trump supporters just like Helz. I'll break down JUST the first topic of the debate for you, just to prove you wrong. Supreme Court/Healthcare Biden claims Trump wants to get rid of the ACA. Biden claims getting rid of the ACA will strip 20 million people off insurance. Biden claims Amy Barett is against Roe v Wade. Biden claims that 100 million Americans would be affected by removal of ACA. Biden claims that Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barett wants to rule the ACA as unconstitutional. Trump made a claim that Justice Ginsburg said "the president is elected for four years, not three years" (Out of context but I'll give him it) Trump made a claim that Biden will extinguish 180 million people from private healthcare Trump claims he travel-banned China. Trump claims Biden didn't support a ban on China. (Biden never disapproved of the RESTRICTION, he called Trump xenophobic for calling it the China Flu) Green = True Red = False I could make one of these for every topic they discussed, including taxes, global warming, and so on. But there's no point, you need to watch the debate for yourself, instead of acting like you did and not knowing what you're saying. Joe did make a few lies, but extremely less than Trump. Do the fact checking yourself. Seems like Sleepy Joe be less sleepy than most Americans. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 112] Auteur : Firebringer Date : October 3rd, 2020 05:03 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I find it so bizarre that some people are so mentally susceptible to right-wing propaganda that they believe everything that certain demagogues say about America, despite any evidence shown to the contrary, and without ever even having set foot in America, as well as meeting countless actual American people who tell them things that go against what they believe. Absolutely perplexing. Is it some sort of smoofness in one's brain that leads to them believing a set of "strong men" over facts? Right-wingers will often say "Jordan Peterson said this" and "Sean Hannity said that", meanwhile I couldn't name a single leftist or even centrist popular figure if you put a gun to my head. I once had someone show me a photoshopped Facebook screenshot as evidence of something. I pointed out that it was obviously photoshopped and asked them to provide me with more evidence. They did; a tweet of Jordan Peterson linking to the same photoshopped screenshot. I think this is a sort of mental predisposition that totalitarian governments have previously tried to tap into and it seems to be successful. Powerful "men of the people" like Stalin, Hitler, Goebbels, the Kim family, etc. And now in the information era, we see it turned up to 11. Not at all surprising. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 113] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 3rd, 2020 05:19 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Not surprising, just an astonishing frame of thought to me. How can one place so much value in the words of specific men? I can't name a person whose word I would trust so unconditionally in every subject; not a politician I support, a scientist I appreciate, or even my own family members. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 114] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 3rd, 2020 06:12 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I find it funny how you guys still bother arguing with Ganelon. He'll always overlook the evidence you provide him and just come up with another shit take. Why bother? Trump supporters don't care that most of Trump's decision has been harmful to the country. They'll focus on 1 or 2 shit takes and try to ride the train as long as they can. The pride is too big to swallow. I think for myself. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 115] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 3rd, 2020 06:17 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump "don't listen to facts" i've literally provided you with facts as to the police shootings. multiple sources, in fact. "listen to strong-men" jordan peterson is not a strong-man. he isn't even right-wing. hes just a really good psychologist with an avid interest in totalitarianism, morality, politics and religion. also, jordan peterson has genuinely helped me in a way that nobody else has. his self-help doctrine does wonders for you. i think his view on truthfulness and the act of lying is incredibly important; its made me realize that i actually tell many lies, both by acting and by speaking (i.e. actual lies), although those lies tend to be incredibly elaborate and complicated. lies are in fact so complicated that a statement or a thought you have can be objectively true, and yet still a lie. i think theres a higher-order 'truth' that is subjective, and when you tell a subjective falsehood, that is what lying is. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 116] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 3rd, 2020 06:18 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump also Lysergic, I LITERALLY said that I was specifically talking about UNARMED police shootings in my first post about police shootings going down. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 117] Auteur : Lysergic Date : October 3rd, 2020 06:54 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump also Lysergic, I LITERALLY said that I was specifically talking about UNARMED police shootings in my first post about police shootings going down. I've quoted it for you like three times. Would a screenshot make this sink in? lol "Don't believe your lying eyes." -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 118] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 3rd, 2020 06:56 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump He did actually denounce them later, and said he didn't know anything about them (tbh he should've said so at start, but thats just Trump for you). Anyways, idk much about them either. That was literally the first time I've heard of them. 'Legitimate issues to protest' To some degree, yes. The police seem to have a bit too much power in America (that or they aren't well-trained enough). The data does not indicate that the police is racist (which... think about it for a second: in order for a government organization like the police to be racist like that, they need to have racist people recruiting other racist people to become cops, KEEP it SOMEHOW hidden from the rest of the population, and going 'hey, go arrest more black people than white people, I won't care'. like seriously has anyone actually thought about the implications of that?), however, which is what most of the protests and the riots were about. That being said, I'm not sure what your point with the protesters having a legitimate point is, unless you're arguing that Trump failed to fix that or caused it; which is wrong. The number of police shootings of unarmed people has decreased since 2016. I don't even necessarily think Trump had anything to do with that decrease, it's just strange to lay that at his feet. Also, at the end of the day, I think the influence/danger posed by/the membership of right-wing extremist groups is exaggerated. KKK has what, a few thousand members? And the proud boys have a couple hundred. And yet, the head of the FBI says white supremacists are the biggest threat in the country ??? I don't see white supremacists looting stores or beating people senseless on the street just for carrying the American flag; its not that they wouldn't do harm, its just that... there's very, very few of them. Nazism has such a tainted past that nobody in the world is a nazi right now. No, right now the real danger is coming from left (and IMO, although right now it isn't such a big threat, the Libertarian Party also has the 'potential' to become one, assuming people will actually vote for them which I don't think will happen). I bolded it. you know who engages in selective reading? scum. Lysergic -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 119] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 3rd, 2020 10:37 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1i5IIYfFhI There's a lot of relatively bad stuff in there (I'll just mention the complete lack of mention of any form of legitimacy given to actually peaceful and righteous protesters to balance the strongly emphasised repression of rioters as an example), but timestamp 11:17 is what frightened me when I listened to his speech, because it looked like a Mussolini speech. Appealing to the nation's greatness and to the people's pride in it to demolish its enemies who want to weaken the great nation and make it "atone for its sins"? Come on. The only strong difference with Mussolini speeches is that he doesn't call to war against other countries, although he does escalate against China pretty strongly over time in his speeches in general. I was looking for Mussolini speeches to compare them with Trump's, and found this among other things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNX2V5wXDWg Heh. Looks like I wasn't the only one lol. I also found this article, and although it's not completely damning by itself, it's becoming hard to deny that he was inspired by fascist leaders, at the very least in the way he talks to the people... https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-ex-wife-once-said-he-kept-a-book-of-hitlers-speeches-by-his-bed-2015-8?op=1 Pleaaaaase... get him out........ I would like to bring back the specific topic of the thread. Those who agree that Trump is bad, do you think he's bad enough to actually try to turn America fascist, seeing the elements he shares with fascists? Those who don't agree that he's bad, don't you think the resemblance is a little bit frightening? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 120] Auteur : Mike Date : October 3rd, 2020 10:45 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump No, you didn't watch the debate live. Either you're trolling, you're straight up lying, or your IQ falls below the average American IQ. Going to assume the latter because of your last sentence, and you must be another person thats intimidated by Trump supporters just like Helz. I'll break down JUST the first topic of the debate for you, just to prove you wrong. Supreme Court/Healthcare Biden claims Trump wants to get rid of the ACA. Biden claims getting rid of the ACA will strip 20 million people off insurance. Biden claims Amy Barett is against Roe v Wade. Biden claims that 100 million Americans would be affected by removal of ACA. Biden claims that Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barett wants to rule the ACA as unconstitutional. Trump made a claim that Justice Ginsburg said "the president is elected for four years, not three years" (Out of context but I'll give him it) Trump made a claim that Biden will extinguish 180 million people from private healthcare Trump claims he travel-banned China. Trump claims Biden didn't support a ban on China. (Biden never disapproved of the RESTRICTION, he called Trump xenophobic for calling it the China Flu) Green = True Red = False I could make one of these for every topic they discussed, including taxes, global warming, and so on. But there's no point, you need to watch the debate for yourself, instead of acting like you did and not knowing what you're saying. Joe did make a few lies, but extremely less than Trump. Do the fact checking yourself. Seems like Sleepy Joe be less sleepy than most Americans. Yes I did watch it live and no I am not lying or Trolling. I am not intermediated by any trump supporter. I will be voting Trump. I get your points you made. Biden was not giving us his views. Watching his mannerisms every time trump interrupted him It was almost like he was going over script in his head that he rehearsed. I am not going after anyone else views I am expressing what I viewed watching the Debate. Biden was flip flop on alot. Yes Trump kept telling him well you just lost the left. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 121] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 4th, 2020 04:28 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I would like to bring back the specific topic of the thread. Those who agree that Trump is bad, do you think he's bad enough to actually try to turn America fascist, seeing the elements he shares with fascists? Those who don't agree that he's bad, don't you think the resemblance is a little bit frightening? He can't make America fascist. You need the military to start a fascist state. Trump doesn't even have a stable ideology, which is also of understated importance lol. I don't think this is indicative of fascism. I think this is just a new, less stable stage of our democracy. The internet allows politicians to bypass the support of (most of) old media, meaning a president can threaten not to honour an election and the supporters will assume it's the level headed response to voter fraud. In another generation, politicians may be able to accumulate power solely through an online, isolated echo chamber, totally disconnected from any counter-narratives. There won't be fascism because they won't need fascism. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 122] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 4th, 2020 07:21 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Why the focus on unarmed police shootings? This is America we're talking about, like half the people are armed. I hate the implication that people who were shot by police while armed somehow deserved to die. I suppose the cops lighting up this guy was a completely valid reaction because he had a pistol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBaeZIEkd3Y -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 123] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 4th, 2020 08:02 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "I hate the implication that people who were shot while armed deserved to die" Except thats not what I was saying. If you were shot by police, and you were armed, the probability that there were legitimate reasons for the cop to shoot you is substantially higher than if you had been unarmed. "I suppose the cops lighting up this guy" read above. one dude dying in an illicit manner doesn't say anything about the rest of the cases. as far as I know, nobody has attempted to break down police shootings of armed suspects and see which were legit, which weren't, if the cop(s) in question got investigated/charged/fired/ etc, but of course if you find something like this i'll be happy to discuss it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 124] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 4th, 2020 01:50 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump He can't make America fascist. You need the military to start a fascist state. Trump doesn't even have a stable ideology, which is also of understated importance lol. I don't think this is indicative of fascism. I think this is just a new, less stable stage of our democracy. The internet allows politicians to bypass the support of (most of) old media, meaning a president can threaten not to honour an election and the supporters will assume it's the level headed response to voter fraud. In another generation, politicians may be able to accumulate power solely through an online, isolated echo chamber, totally disconnected from any counter-narratives. There won't be fascism because they won't need fascism. You can also use militias to establish a fascist government, you know. Also, I'm pretty sure the military doesn't exactly hate Trump, although that's an undocumented take on the matter. You're right about "not needing fascism eventually", though. That'd need its own name. However, we're not there yet. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 125] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 4th, 2020 02:37 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump You can also use militias to establish a fascist government, you know. Also, I'm pretty sure the military doesn't exactly hate Trump, although that's an undocumented take on the matter. You're right about "not needing fascism eventually", though. That'd need its own name. However, we're not there yet. Maybe, but unless you're suggesting the Proud Boys have the training and resources to seize the White House, I don't think that's a particularly important distinction. The military is not backing Trump's fascist utopia. Adolf Hitler received a First Class Iron Cross in WW1, whereas Trump evaded the Vietnam War Draft. The two are just not comparable. https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2020/08/31/as-trumps-popularity-slips-in-latest-military-times-poll-more-troops-say-theyll-vote-for-biden/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/military-officers-trump/598360/ Some of the second article can be dismissed as gossip. But the parts where generals explicitly name themselves and share their opinions can't really be ignored. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 126] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 5th, 2020 12:28 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Maybe, but unless you're suggesting the Proud Boys have the training and resources to seize the White House, I don't think that's a particularly important distinction. The military is not backing Trump's fascist utopia. Adolf Hitler received a First Class Iron Cross in WW1, whereas Trump evaded the Vietnam War Draft. The two are just not comparable. https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2020/08/31/as-trumps-popularity-slips-in-latest-military-times-poll-more-troops-say-theyll-vote-for-biden/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/military-officers-trump/598360/ Some of the second article can be dismissed as gossip. But the parts where generals explicitly name themselves and share their opinions can't really be ignored. Fair enough; this is quite reassuring. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 127] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 5th, 2020 03:16 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "don't listen to facts" i've literally provided you with facts as to the police shootings. multiple sources, in fact. "listen to strong-men" jordan peterson is not a strong-man. he isn't even right-wing. hes just a really good psychologist with an avid interest in totalitarianism, morality, politics and religion. also, jordan peterson has genuinely helped me in a way that nobody else has. his self-help doctrine does wonders for you. i think his view on truthfulness and the act of lying is incredibly important; its made me realize that i actually tell many lies, both by acting and by speaking (i.e. actual lies), although those lies tend to be incredibly elaborate and complicated. lies are in fact so complicated that a statement or a thought you have can be objectively true, and yet still a lie. i think theres a higher-order 'truth' that is subjective, and when you tell a subjective falsehood, that is what lying is. Not only have you entirely missed my point, but you also proved me right with your post here. Bravo. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 128] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 5th, 2020 03:51 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "proved me right with this post" respecting people who are very capable is not listening to strong-men. "missed my point" no, I did not miss your point. your point is that some people are idiots and don't think for themselves. thats not really a very original or even difficult idea to reach. you might try finding more creative ways of insulting people. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 129] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 5th, 2020 05:07 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump That wasn't my point. Also who did I insult? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 130] Auteur : Sylvanas Date : October 5th, 2020 09:55 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Why the focus on unarmed police shootings? This is America we're talking about, like half the people are armed. I hate the implication that people who were shot by police while armed somehow deserved to die. I suppose the cops lighting up this guy was a completely valid reaction because he had a pistol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBaeZIEkd3Y Oh, I know. Why not take away all their guns? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 131] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : October 5th, 2020 01:04 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump As strongheaded as you are, Oberon I do appreciate this thread because this has encouraged me to do the research that I should've already been doing. I am now much more confident in my position of casting my vote for Biden for the upcoming election. I think that he will be a far better president than Trump because I think that he will listen to his staff and peers. Enjoy your day, and I hope that you feel better now that you know that the political discourse you hosted has truly influenced someone's opinion. Edit: In fact I'm going to go fill out and mail my absentee ballot right now. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 132] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 5th, 2020 01:46 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump lmao -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 133] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 5th, 2020 01:49 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump so seeing BLM's agenda heavily discredited (with facts!), people repeatedly getting called out on misreading/claiming they made a different point than the one they actually made, guns being shown to SAVE lives more often than they take one, all this has made you decide to vote for biden, who literally disagrees with everything i've said? that's impressive. LOL -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 134] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 5th, 2020 02:10 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Trump is the only president in the last 25 years who has enacted federal gun regulations... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 135] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : October 5th, 2020 02:16 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump so seeing BLM's agenda heavily discredited (with facts!), people repeatedly getting called out on misreading/claiming they made a different point than the one they actually made, guns being shown to SAVE lives more often than they take one, all this has made you decide to vote for biden, who literally disagrees with everything i've said? that's impressive. LOL Yeah, pretty much everything you've said has come down to > Something bad about trump is slander (double points if its true) > Something false is true (double points if its about biden) > Statistics with no citations that get disproven You haven't even commented on half of the things I've posted because you don't have a response to them. There is no response to them. It's painfully clear to me that you reached a conclusion before debating and starting scrambling to find things to shore up your argument. I did my research, I watched the debate, I'm making an educated decision about who I believe is the less immature 70 year old. This is my result. I also want to make it incredibly clear that a significant portion of BLM protestors are in favor of the BLM movement and have not gone into researching the BLM organization. The BLM organization sucks dick and I know Biden will never play ball with them. They were just in the right place at the right time. I support BLM as a movement but I do not support the organization because the organization is antisemetic, incompetent, and incredibly short sighted. I also encourage anyone who doesn't understand what I'm saying here to do their own research on the topic. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 136] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : October 5th, 2020 02:17 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Printed off my absentee ballot, filling it out tonight and I'll be mailing it in this week. I'll be ready to vote when it comes around from the comfort of my dormitory. Of course, my vote doesn't count in the president's eyes because it's a mail-in vote. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 137] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 5th, 2020 02:25 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Of course, my vote doesn't count in the president's eyes because it's a mail-in vote. Completely untrue. If you commit voter fraud, like the president advised people to do (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1304769412759724033) then you're doing the nation a service. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 138] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 5th, 2020 02:28 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump You haven't even commented on half of the things I've posted because you don't have a response to them. There is no response to them. Welcome to Gan's politics corner -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 139] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 5th, 2020 03:08 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump "you haven't even commented on half the things i said because there is no response to them" half the things you say are just literary claims with absolutely no basis behind them. "something bad about trump is slander" MOST of the things people say about politicians, not just trump, are slander. "it's painfully clear to me" again, i've literally provided you with sources. multiple, in fact. "i'm making a decision" good for you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 140] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 5th, 2020 03:16 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump "you haven't even commented on half the things i said because there is no response to them" half the things you say are just literary claims with absolutely no basis behind them. "something bad about trump is slander" MOST of the things people say about politicians, not just trump, are slander. "it's painfully clear to me" again, i've literally provided you with sources. multiple, in fact. "i'm making a decision" good for you. :toadette: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 141] Auteur : Voss Date : October 5th, 2020 05:30 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I find it funny how you guys still bother arguing with Ganelon. He'll always overlook the evidence you provide him and just come up with another shit take. Why bother? Trump supporters don't care that most of Trump's decision has been harmful to the country. They'll focus on 1 or 2 shit takes and try to ride the train as long as they can. The pride is too big to swallow. For me, it exercises the same brain cells that I use to play mafia, so I find it fun. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 142] Auteur : Voss Date : October 5th, 2020 05:32 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump "oh em gee, you IGNORED my QUESTIONS and are MISREPRESENTING ME" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 143] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 5th, 2020 06:23 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump "oh em gee, you IGNORED my QUESTIONS and are MISREPRESENTING ME" Instead of responding to this, you should respond to the push backs against your false claim that "nazi's aren't far right" You can't make a false claim and then ignore when your claim is refuted More than one group of people can be right wing Nazis are far right. They are far right. ditto. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 144] Auteur : Ash Date : October 5th, 2020 06:39 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I don't trust the polls. All I know is that many democrats this summer are voting for Trump. Nobody likes Biden or those riots. The riots are effectively a massive "Joe Biden for President rally". And yeah as far as I'm concerned there is absolutely no way Trump won't win this election lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_fYrykccPA -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 145] Auteur : Helz Date : October 5th, 2020 10:06 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Let's start here, you immediately assume that every person that votes for their party is a "die-hard" fanboy. Wrong on so many levels. Because you see people like Ganelon (not even American) on these forums, doesn't mean that every person that votes for Trump will be a die-hard fanboy. In modern USA, neither Trump or Biden are trying to convince the far-right or far-left to vote for them, they are both aiming for centrist/undecided voters. I would say that your purported representation of my view is extremely out of context and I disagree that marketing targets the moderates these days. The new goal is to develop an infrastructure pushing the objectives of their associated political party. Sure the 'moderate' vote swings the election but it is now generally understood how building a culture swings the moderate opinion in the long term. I was attacking the idea that you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. You underscore this concept demanding a choice by virtue of the bipartisan system while I advocate against the concept of having to choose between two 'lesser evils.' Your shitty nihilistic take on politics is so cringe, it's like you were just born yesterday and have no idea how politics work. BOTH sides will push on how the other side is wrong, because we are in a TWO-PARTY SYSTEM. It's their jobs to shit smear each other in hopes of swaying undecided voters to vote, and in hopes of non-voter idiots like you to show up to a poll booth and vote. Both sides are going to be wrong, because again we are in a two-party system. Red or blue, there is no orange, no purple, no teal. Take global warming for example. Are you for or against global warming? I shouldn't even have to go in-depth about global warming because it's clear that Trump rolled back every Obama-era regulation in terms of slowing down global warming. There is no "maybe", it's just a clear yes or no. You're not smarter by not voting, you're just a clear-cut idiot. I disagree with you labeling me into whatever anti or pro Trump whatever. I think you should read a few books on nihilism before trying to use the word. Or maybe at least a dictionary that mentions the word? This view is in the most basic terms a "false dichotomy." Its forcing the options between 2 options when there is many more. You can be in support of proposed environmental measures, opposed to environmental measures or in favor of pushing a different set of environmental measures. I would push option 3 referencing how measures to protect the environment such as pushing solar energy barely function on a financial level even with government subsidization. Are we a two option decision making society with me being wrong for arguing for a 3rd option? No. Your just forcing the conversation in that direction. Your ideas aren't original. Just seems like you're a Bernie-bro that's in denial and doesn't want to vote for anyone else. Funny thing is that even Bernie wants Biden to win because he realizes how shitty and corrupt Trump is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO1o66Ti2bA I do not understand why you felt that youtube video had any relevence. You realize that antifa is short for anti-fascism, correct? Are you FOR fascism, or are you AGAINST fascism? Very simple take. Again, you can't disagree with both sides because it's a clear-cut FOR or AGAINST answer. This is actually a point I had a lot of fun with over the last year. I had a conversation with a group of ANTIFA members and when I asked what the definition of fascism was they could not give me a simple answer. They gave me some rambling nonsense about all things immoral to include sexism, racism, and oligarchy. But there was never any answer to what their understanding of fascism was. I am against fascism but I laugh saying as much considering how little that means to people that actually understand English. The old word for fascism is the new word for communism. The entirety of the Republican party ever since Trump's campaign took off, is to just run smear campaigns against the opposing party. To divide the country, shit-stir and cause race problems so that they can later point the finger at people that fight against systemic racism. Continue systemic racism, cut taxes for themselves, and continue reaping the farm of unfortunate individuals.How is the democratic party any different? As I said in the beginning its silly how each side points to the other as if it excuses their position. Anyone who stands on either side pointing at the other is not morally justified by screaming about morality. They are just as sick and wrong as those they push are evil if not more so. If they are capable of accepting and understanding their own thought processes while also pushing that view point they are a different kind of evil in my book. You're really not smart and you really don't have any higher ground by saying "I'm not gonna vote haha I'm smart", because you're literally falling into what Republicans want you to do LOL. It was quite clear on the debate who actually cared about the well-being of America when Biden actually looked at the camera and Trump only cared about interrupting his valid arguments.I agree with you there. If I was a stronger man I would take the time to understand my local politics and but instead I loose myself in 20 projects at once which is a cowards excuse for me not handling whats in front of me. Im not sure if your qualified to say if I am smart or not but I really do think the higher ground is fighting for a 3rd path. Feel free to push your political views but please be considerate of those who have an opposing view. Even if you disagree with their position the foundation of freedom is built upon the idea that you can express your ideas without discrimination. Anti-fascism isn't extremist, and isn't radical. And that was very rude.. I agree. But I also think theres a lot of 'radical' 'extremists' who use the term 'Anti-Fascism' without any understanding of what it means in order to promote violence and hostility. I personally think anyone who wants to point a green lazer at a cops eyes with the intent to blind them should be shot in the head. Would you agree or would you consider an attempt to blind someone ok? All that said- What would you consider the definition of a 'radical' or an 'extremist'? Where do you draw the line for a society and what measures should individuals be allowed to protect themselves? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 146] Auteur : Helz Date : October 5th, 2020 10:11 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I am shocked any time someone posts a picture of kyle rittenhouse in order to make some weird point online. Its like posting a picture of nicholas sandman to prove a point The guy who killed a straight up pedo and another guy who attacked him who had multiple felony accounts for attacking his wife and kids with a deadly weapon + shooting the arm off some felon who attacked him with a gun. My hero :love: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 147] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 5th, 2020 10:16 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I have a feeling you're gonna get attacked for saying that LOL -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 148] Auteur : Helz Date : October 5th, 2020 10:23 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I have a feeling you're gonna get attacked for saying that LOL Probably. But anyone who kills a pedophile gets a hard thumbs up from me. If anyone wants to argue 'pedo lives matter' thats a tough position to take. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 149] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:23 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump The guy who killed a straight up pedo and another guy who attacked him who had multiple felony accounts for attacking his wife and kids with a deadly weapon + shooting the arm off some felon who attacked him with a gun. My hero :love: yikes (!!!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 150] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:25 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Probably. But anyone who kills a pedophile gets a hard thumbs up from me. If anyone wants to argue 'pedo lives matter' thats a tough position to take. You realize vigilante justice is not really the way we do things in society... right? Don't be dim. Rittenshit didn't kill him because he was a pedo, he killed himself because he was empowered by the dog whistles blasting from the white house. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 151] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:26 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I guess it is open season now, just shoot first and ask questions later, as soon as a skeleton in your closet is found the goofy right wing Fox news brainless consumers will lap that shit right up. 2nd ammendment, amirite? Lock Rittenshite up and throw away the key, we don't need trigger happy teens thinking his behavior is okay in society. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 152] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 5th, 2020 10:27 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump tbh, i read a bit about the rittenhouse thing and... the whole thing just seems like such a huge mess lol like i cannot derive any conclusion from what i read online. it seems to me that he felt he was in danger or something and returned fire? idk, man might just be someone defending himself or he could be a mass murderer i cannot understand what happened there. the fact that the police had to call upon armed citizens to defend people is already pretty fucking bad. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 153] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:28 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I actually watched the debate live on C-span. I will tell you Binden was Flip flopping. All he wanted to do was Look in cameras with 0 Facts. and say a Bunch of crap. Was Trump a bully to Biden hell yes. But Who do you want running the country Some one who stands up for the Facts or some one who cant even get the facts out strait then when asked to stant any say over and over NO YOU NO YOU NO YOU. All biden did was say No you over and over. I wanted to see what he stood for. All he did was say Trump is evil Trump is bad. NO YOU. over and over. He never told us what he stood for. I was not a trump supporter or Biden. But I would never Vote Biden for President. And anyone that would well God help us. because we will be screwed hard. Are you seriously saying Trump stands for facts? Is this a meme? Why is this site full of right wing losers? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 154] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:29 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump tbh, i read a bit about the rittenhouse thing and... the whole thing just seems like such a huge mess lol like i cannot derive any conclusion from what i read online. it seems to me that he felt he was in danger or something and returned fire? idk, man might just be someone defending himself or he could be a mass murderer i cannot understand what happened there. the fact that the police had to call upon armed citizens to defend people is already pretty fucking bad. I'm sure he felt he was in danger. That's the line the wannabe cop learned to parrot from the hundreds (thousands?) of other police shootings. If you are going to take a life you should have to be actually correct, not think you were correct in the moment. But the right wing only values life in the form of a fetus. Imagine if only fetuses caught covid, goofy ass conservatives would be all over covid restrictions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 155] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:30 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Too many right wing hawks for me here. Kinda disgusting TBH. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 156] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:31 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I am totally for freezepeach but I don't believe in the "both sides" bullshit the right pushes to get their megaphone heard. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 157] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:35 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Right wing violence is the top threat in this country. Why wouldn't Trump disavow? Stand back and stand by? https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2020/10/dallas-fbi-warns-against-right-wing-extremist-violence-ahead-of-election/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 158] Auteur : Helz Date : October 5th, 2020 10:35 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump You realize vigilante justice is not really the way we do things in society... right? Don't be dim. Rittenshit didn't kill him because he was a pedo, he killed himself because he was empowered by the dog whistles blasting from the white house. Orrr maybe he killed him because he was being attacked and afraid for his life? From what I have seen he should not have been there but a bunch of rioters (or peaceful protesters looking to peacefully light a dumpster on fire and roll it down a hill at other people) were disrupted when he put out their literal dumpster fire. When he tried to leave after doing so he was attacked by Rosenbaum who was a felon with convictions of beating his family with a weapon and he killed him at the same time as another person shot at him. After he ran away and was once again attacked he killed some pedo who was attacking him. People like to pretend some 'this is wrong' level of justification but I straight up support the killing of pedophiles regardless of the context. I would be interest to see anything supporting the idea that the white house should be blamed for 'empowering vigilante justice.' And honestly a hard thumbs up to anyone who supports the killing of pedos in my book. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 159] Auteur : Helz Date : October 5th, 2020 10:38 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Too many right wing hawks for me here. Kinda disgusting TBH. How is the right any less disgusting than the left though? My entire point is that neither side is doing whats best for the citizens. Why are you sold on one side being justified while both sides profit from going against the interest of the citizens they pretend to represent? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 160] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:38 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Orrr maybe he killed him because he was being attacked and afraid for his life? From what I have seen he should not have been there but a bunch of rioters (or peaceful protesters looking to peacefully light a dumpster on fire and roll it down a hill at other people) were disrupted when he put out their literal dumpster fire. When he tried to leave after doing so he was attacked by Rosenbaum who was a felon with convictions of beating his family with a weapon and he killed him at the same time as another person shot at him. After he ran away and was once again attacked he killed some pedo who was attacking him. People like to pretend some 'this is wrong' level of justification but I straight up support the killing of pedophiles regardless of the context. I would be interest to see anything supporting the idea that the white house should be blamed for 'empowering vigilante justice.' And honestly a hard thumbs up to anyone who supports the killing of pedos in my book. The guy being a pedo has not a fucking thing to do with the loser teenage blowing him away. Very simple! Why do you keep bringing it up? How is that a defense for Rittenshite? OHH JURY I KILLED HIM CUZ HE WAS A PEDO. Not how shit works, yikes!!!! Kill pedos in any context - what a dumb fucking thing to say. Holy shit. Only loser republicans deal in absolutes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 161] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:39 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump How is the right any less disgusting than the left though? My entire point is that neither side is doing whats best for the citizens. Why are you sold on one side being justified while both sides profit from going against the interest of the citizens they pretend to represent? No thanks. False equivalence, whataboutism, more common fox news drivel - I'd prefer not to listen to Kayleigh McGoofeny's fake news pressers on repeat. BUTTEREMAILS -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 162] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 5th, 2020 10:41 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump In case you need it Helz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence STAND BACK AND STAND BY - maybe listen your god emperor on this one before typing more bullshit. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 163] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 5th, 2020 10:42 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump (!) yikes -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 164] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 5th, 2020 10:43 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I started reading this thread but felt like going through 15 pages of a debate on categorization would give me cancer so I skipped here. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 165] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : October 5th, 2020 10:49 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I think I finally understand Plotato 's mind a bit -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 166] Auteur : Helz Date : October 5th, 2020 10:52 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump The guy being a pedo has not a fucking thing to do with the loser teenage blowing him away. Very simple! Why do you keep bringing it up? How is that a defense for Rittenshite? OHH JURY I KILLED HIM CUZ HE WAS A PEDO. Not how shit works, yikes!!!! Kill pedos in any context - what a dumb fucking thing to say. Holy shit. Only loser republicans deal in absolutes. The defense for Kyle Rittenhouse is based upon the fact he was running away and being attacked while being shot at. The fact he shot 3 felons- 2 who died (with 1 being a pedo and the other being a man who beat on women and children with a deadly weapon) makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. I keep bringing it up because its damaging to the narrative that some evil teenager ran around killing people. I support this kid and I would have supported him if he kicked in the door of a pedo's house and shot him in the face. But thats not what happened. He was attacked by a pedo and killed him in self defense. He was running away after putting out a fire. Why is that so offensive to you? If its so terrible to say "kill pedos in any context" please explain to me your belief system. Would you rather allow them to rape their way through generations of our society? Why does my view have to be associated with republicans? And why do 'absolute republicans' have to be loosers? I would be interested in hearing your justification for a number of these positions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 167] Auteur : Helz Date : October 5th, 2020 10:55 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump In case you need it Helz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence STAND BACK AND STAND BY - maybe listen your god emperor on this one before typing more bullshit. Uhhhh....? Feel free to fuck right off with this one to include the insinuation I am republican and follow some trump supremacy shit. No thanks. False equivalence, whataboutism, more common fox news drivel - I'd prefer not to listen to Kayleigh McGoofeny's fake news pressers on repeat. BUTTEREMAILS So one thing I have no respect for is the idea of 'whataboutism.' Its the practice of pushing an idea while invalidating concepts that matter as if they had no bearing (like a red herring) although they did. Its the equivalent of pushing 'Im gona ignore this thing because its against what I am pushing for' while somehow pretending its justified by a logic structure. Maybe if you want to push the whole idea that pedos existence should not be terminated I will take the time to bring forward some nice photos detailing that 17 year old kid being attacked by felons. I think anyone who rapes a child should burn in hell but thats just me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 168] Auteur : rumox Date : October 6th, 2020 01:03 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump But did he kill them with knowledge of their crimes? I have no context of what happened with how and why, but it's not good to condone what happened solely with after matter facts of the victims character. It's only relevant if the killer knew of this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 169] Auteur : rumox Date : October 6th, 2020 01:04 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Like simply speaking, yeah the world can do without those guys but still... lol. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 170] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 6th, 2020 01:10 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Ah yes, here we see a rare moment. Enlightened centrist philosopher Helz has finally abandoned his long-standing principle that the outcome of actions don't matter, and it's only the intent of an action that can be used to judge one's character. Although he used his previously-held principle to mount a long discussion about how ackshually if you think about it the Union was just as bad as the Confederacy because, even though they freed the slaves, maybe Lincoln didn't actually want to free the slaves, now we see that Helz believes in precisely the opposite and uses it to argue that a right-winger is justified in gunning down random people because one of them was a pedophile by chance. I wonder if this new paradigm of his will last, or if another issue will come up that will necessitate another "flip-flop", so to speak, in order to argue that muh both sides bad. Stay tuned. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 171] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 03:42 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Ah yes, here we see a rare moment. Enlightened centrist philosopher Helz has finally abandoned his long-standing principle that the outcome of actions don't matter, and it's only the intent of an action that can be used to judge one's character. Although he used his previously-held principle to mount a long discussion about how ackshually if you think about it the Union was just as bad as the Confederacy because, even though they freed the slaves, maybe Lincoln didn't actually want to free the slaves, now we see that Helz believes in precisely the opposite and uses it to argue that a right-winger is justified in gunning down random people because one of them was a pedophile by chance. I wonder if this new paradigm of his will last, or if another issue will come up that will necessitate another "flip-flop", so to speak, in order to argue that muh both sides bad. Stay tuned. I find it hilarious that you hate a guy so much just for having his own opinions that contradict yours ^^ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 172] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 6th, 2020 03:49 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I find it hilarious that you hate a guy so much just for having his own opinions that contradict yours ^^ I don't hate him, nor do I really care about his opinions. I just find it hilarious how he flip-flopped hard enough to give himself whiplash when it came time to defend the right. But he's totally a centrist because he also says the right is bad sometimes (but only when the left is bad too because both sides bad amirite). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 173] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 6th, 2020 03:56 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Oh and also, tone policing (like what you're doing) is an actual form of an ad hominem fallacy, for future purposes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 174] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 03:57 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump But did he kill them with knowledge of their crimes? I have no context of what happened with how and why, but it's not good to condone what happened solely with after matter facts of the victims character. It's only relevant if the killer knew of this. Kind of a moot point seeing as the dude acted in self defense. Anyways I think Helz needs to nuance a bit. Like if the pedo in question actually rapes children... yeah, fuck him. If on the other hand, the dude doesnt act on his attraction, then no. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 175] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 03:57 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Oh and also, tone policing (like what you're doing) is an actual form of an ad hominem fallacy, for future purposes. LOL -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 176] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 03:59 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I don't hate him, nor do I really care about his opinions. I just find it hilarious how he flip-flopped hard enough to give himself whiplash when it came time to defend the right. But he's totally a centrist because he also says the right is bad sometimes (but only when the left is bad too because both sides bad amirite). You certainly care enough to engage him when he hasn't even mentioned you! :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 177] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 6th, 2020 04:03 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump LOL What's so funny? Rather than addressing any part of my argument, you engaged in tone policing to attack my character. That is precisely what an ad hominem attack is. Here's some more reading so you can understand a bit better and not misuse the term: Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a term that refers to several types of arguments, most of which are fallacious. Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. This avoids genuine debate by creating a diversion to some irrelevant but often highly charged issue. The most common form of this fallacy is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong". The valid types of ad hominem arguments are generally only encountered in specialized philosophical usage. These typically refer to the dialectical strategy of using the target's own beliefs and arguments against them, while not agreeing with the validity of those beliefs and arguments. Say chicken in your next post to prove you read this. Ad hominem arguments were first studied in ancient Greece; John Locke revived the examination of ad hominem arguments in the 17th century. Many contemporary politicians routinely use ad hominem attacks, which can be encapsulated to a derogatory nickname for a political opponent. You certainly care enough to engage him when he hasn't even mentioned you! :) Absolutely, because I feel like discussing things in this thread. Do you not do the same? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 178] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 6th, 2020 04:47 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump The defense for Kyle Rittenhouse is based upon the fact he was running away and being attacked while being shot at. The fact he shot 3 felons- 2 who died (with 1 being a pedo and the other being a man who beat on women and children with a deadly weapon) makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. I keep bringing it up because its damaging to the narrative that some evil teenager ran around killing people. I support this kid and I would have supported him if he kicked in the door of a pedo's house and shot him in the face. But thats not what happened. He was attacked by a pedo and killed him in self defense. He was running away after putting out a fire. Why is that so offensive to you? If its so terrible to say "kill pedos in any context" please explain to me your belief system. Would you rather allow them to rape their way through generations of our society? Why does my view have to be associated with republicans? And why do 'absolute republicans' have to be loosers? I would be interested in hearing your justification for a number of these positions. Not only are you fixated on a detail Kyle Rittenhouse wouldn't have been aware of (and is hence irrelevant to the judgement of his character), you're baiting people to get into some long argument about the actions of a single individual that we can project our political biases onto. How does proving Kyle Rittenhouse is a saint or the devil change anything whatsoever in the grand scheme of things? We'd all have exactly the same opinions if the incident played out totally differently or never happened. Meanwhile you're also stanning the idea of... indiscriminately killing people we believe to be paedophiles, irrespective of context, because apparently the only alternative is "allow(ing) them to rape their way through generations of our society." Quite an insight. I respect your insights into a lot of topics, but this was like watching you puke over your computer screen lol. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 179] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 6th, 2020 06:25 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Uhhhh....? Feel free to fuck right off with this one to include the insinuation I am republican and follow some trump supremacy shit. So one thing I have no respect for is the idea of 'whataboutism.' Its the practice of pushing an idea while invalidating concepts that matter as if they had no bearing (like a red herring) although they did. Its the equivalent of pushing 'Im gona ignore this thing because its against what I am pushing for' while somehow pretending its justified by a logic structure. Maybe if you want to push the whole idea that pedos existence should not be terminated I will take the time to bring forward some nice photos detailing that 17 year old kid being attacked by felons. I think anyone who rapes a child should burn in hell but thats just me. You think you have some moral high ground because of this strange pedo argument but you don't. It is pretty weak and I think you know it as you are now repeating it constantly after being backed into a corner. I do not believe in letting teenagers run loose to shoot people. I guess you do. I don't want to live in your version of society. Thankfully, you probably have no power to push your warped views in real life lmao. This Rittenshite defense IS Trump supremacy shit so while you spew it you get associated with Trump and his disastrous and divisive leadership. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 180] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 07:46 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump You think you have some moral high ground because of this strange pedo argument but you don't. It is pretty weak and I think you know it as you are now repeating it constantly after being backed into a corner. I do not believe in letting teenagers run loose to shoot people. I guess you do. I don't want to live in your version of society. Thankfully, you probably have no power to push your warped views in real life lmao. This Rittenshite defense IS Trump supremacy shit so while you spew it you get associated with Trump and his disastrous and divisive leadership. "This RIttenshite defense" Would you rather a pedophile survived and raped *your* kids? I'm just curious. I don't even necessarily agree with Helz that pedophiles should be shot on sight, I just can't understand where this resistance to his suggestion is coming from? Surely its not controversial to say that you're glad a murderer/rapist got what was coming to them? Or is it just because Kyle Rittenhouse was big on guns/NRA/law enforcement that its wrong? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 181] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 07:47 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump What's so funny? Rather than addressing any part of my argument, you engaged in tone policing to attack my character. That is precisely what an ad hominem attack is. Here's some more reading so you can understand a bit better and not misuse the term: Absolutely, because I feel like discussing things in this thread. Do you not do the same? "What's so funny" Oh boy. "Absolutely, because I feel like discussing things in this thread" Again, you seem to be having a very emotional response to what Helz is saying :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 182] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 07:49 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "Trump supremacy shit" Maybe you should ask the man if hes even a conservative before you attack him for supporting "Trump supremacy shit". -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 183] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 6th, 2020 07:52 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "Trump supremacy shit" Maybe you should ask the man if hes even a conservative before you attack him for supporting "Trump supremacy shit". Doesn't matter what he says it is clear. Tim Pool and Andy Ngo claim they are liberals too but they aren't fooling anyone. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 184] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 6th, 2020 07:53 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "This RIttenshite defense" Would you rather a pedophile survived and raped *your* kids? I'm just curious. I don't even necessarily agree with Helz that pedophiles should be shot on sight, I just can't understand where this resistance to his suggestion is coming from? Surely its not controversial to say that you're glad a murderer/rapist got what was coming to them? Or is it just because Kyle Rittenhouse was big on guns/NRA/law enforcement that its wrong? I won't even validate this with a response. It is controversial. Rittenshite doesn't get to circumvent the judicial system in a society. That's why he will rot in jail. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 185] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 07:55 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Doesn't matter what he says it is clear. Tim Pool and Andy Ngo claim they are liberals too but they aren't fooling anyone. No, it isn't LOL "Tim Pool and and Andy Ngo" There is a certain subset of liberalism that overlaps with conservatism to a significant degree (old-school liberalism), although that is not what I was referring to. I think Helz is not a conservative; the second amendment is a rather poor indicator of one's affiliation because there's many Democrats who are in favour of the second amendment; it's not a strictly partisan issue. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 186] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 6th, 2020 08:43 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "What's so funny" Oh boy. "Absolutely, because I feel like discussing things in this thread" Again, you seem to be having a very emotional response to what Helz is saying :) Repeatedly slinging ad hom attacks at me and trying to police my tone does not constitute a valid response to anything I said. Please go back and read the definition of ad hominem argument that I posted so you can avoid engaging in this fallacy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 187] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 10:00 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 188] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 6th, 2020 11:10 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump :) You two should really just have sex already -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 189] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 12:59 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump You two should really just have sex already lmao -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 190] Auteur : rumox Date : October 6th, 2020 02:33 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump The self defense argument is actually sound in defense of Rittenhouse pending further investigation, not this vigilante argument defending his actions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 191] Auteur : rumox Date : October 6th, 2020 02:42 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump It's very common for people to approve of mob justice when after matter facts are revealed and it becomes their sole reason for the approval of mob justice. I understand where people are coming from when they say this kind of stuff but it should never be at the forefront of the discussion because imo it perpetuates vigilante justice mentalities and I am hard against letting this thought manifest and spread amongst the people - it's a recipe for disaster and undermines the rule of law. Think of the dumbest person you know then realize half the world is probably dumber than them. Imagine what they would do with this instilled vigilante power they feel after seeing how this kind of stuff is approved. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 192] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 6th, 2020 03:26 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump agreed. vigilante-ism shouldn't be encouraged; at the same time i do see where helz is coming from and i think his point of view is quite understandable, just that people shouldn't have the right to kill for who you are. there are some notable exceptions, such as when a father kills someone who raped his daughter; not sure if that should be 'legal' but i could defs see the father not being charged due to the (unique) circumstances. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 193] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 6th, 2020 03:43 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I actually don't think that Kyle kid went to the protest with a gun so he could just shoot up some protesters because he hates leftists or whatever. I've seen that narrative and I just don't think it makes sense. However, I do think he was an absolute moron who got into edgy "muh right-wing militia" LARPing and got in way too deep for his own good. Then when shit got real he pissed his pants and started recklessly blasting because he was a bitch ass momma's boy who didn't know what else to do. He's still extremely reckless and really fucking stupid, and needs to be punished accordingly, since his actions showed a clear lack of judgment which will carry forward in his life if he gets off scott-free. Also importantly, the precedent can't be set that you can murder people if you do so under the guise of doing so for a popular political movement. But I don't think he left his house that day thinking "I'm going to shoot some protesters today". That being said, the trial hasn't begun to my knowledge, so maybe I'm wrong about that. I think at the very least he's guilty of manslaughter, but I'm not sure if a murder charge is the right thing here. Let's see. However, the defence of him being innocent and redeemed because he happened to kill someone who is a pedophile is frankly fucking stupid and makes no sense under any definition of justice. I can't see how someone can argue that in good faith, and I condemn any media who tried to dredge up dirt on the victims in an effort to exonerate this kid. I can't remember any other instance where the media has done this with another spree killer or mass murderer, and it's very clear it was politically-motivated mudslinging to clear a kid who seemingly killed in the name of a cause that some people like. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 194] Auteur : Firebringer Date : October 7th, 2020 07:58 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump You realize vigilante justice is not really the way we do things in society... right? Don't be dim. Rittenshit didn't kill him because he was a pedo, he killed himself because he was empowered by the dog whistles blasting from the white house. I don't know how familiar with the actual situation you are. So two questions: 1) Do you think its morally acceptable to kill someone in self defense. 2) Did you read the complaint/charges against Rittenhouse. Because if you did its almost a textbook case of self defense and THAT WAS FILED BY THE STATE. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 195] Auteur : Helz Date : October 8th, 2020 01:49 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump But did he kill them with knowledge of their crimes? I have no context of what happened with how and why, but it's not good to condone what happened solely with after matter facts of the victims character. It's only relevant if the killer knew of this. This is a very solid point. I suppose its hypocritical of me to point to the status of the people who were killed when I also get annoyed any time some borderline adult gets killed robbing someone and its framed as the death of a 'child'. Ah yes, here we see a rare moment. Enlightened centrist philosopher Helz has finally abandoned his long-standing principle that the outcome of actions don't matter, and it's only the intent of an action that can be used to judge one's character. Although he used his previously-held principle to mount a long discussion about how ackshually if you think about it the Union was just as bad as the Confederacy because, even though they freed the slaves, maybe Lincoln didn't actually want to free the slaves, now we see that Helz believes in precisely the opposite and uses it to argue that a right-winger is justified in gunning down random people because one of them was a pedophile by chance. I wonder if this new paradigm of his will last, or if another issue will come up that will necessitate another "flip-flop", so to speak, in order to argue that muh both sides bad. Stay tuned. Well no. You can call this flip flopping if you would like but I wrote the above comment before reading what you said. The intention behind the action defines the morality of the action which Rumox very effectively pointed out. I would have supported the killing of the pedo even if it was someone kicking in the door to his home and putting a bullet in him but the fact he was a pedo has absolutely no bearing on the ethical or moral standing of Kyle Rittenhouse's actions. Im not sure why you are so caught up in American politics for current day or from a hundred years ago but I will say I think your life would probably be better off without the toxicity that it breeds. I don't hate him, nor do I really care about his opinions. I just find it hilarious how he flip-flopped hard enough to give himself whiplash when it came time to defend the right. But he's totally a centrist because he also says the right is bad sometimes (but only when the left is bad too because both sides bad amirite). This is fair. I think the fight between the right and the left is mostly cosmetic. They are both of the same breed of evil with different marketing campaigns. Although I will say that I dont feel I was defending the 'right'. A girl I am dating who lives internationally got all worked up on the whole Kyle Rittenhouse thing so I did a lot of research on it and feel that although the kid should not have been there he did the only things he could have done to protect himself and he was only there to protect society. I dislike how American politics has become so global recently and theres this toxic stigma attached to having some beliefs. Just supporting an event is seen as support for a political party and theres a huge push to say anything republican = evil. All I can say is Fuck that. I am not a republican and do not support the republican party but I will stand for what I believe in. People can dance around and try to make support of any issue taking a political side but thats just because they are consumed in a political movement. If I take a stand saying I support my neighbor shooting a robber that came on his property it does not mean I buy into the toxic political currents that use the message to push their rhetoric. Call me a centrist if you want but I take a hard line against the republican and democratic partys and advocate for their destruction. The only way you could possibly see me as a 'centrist' is if you are incapable of seeing an option outside of those two options. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 196] Auteur : Helz Date : October 8th, 2020 01:54 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Kind of a moot point seeing as the dude acted in self defense. Anyways I think Helz needs to nuance a bit. Like if the pedo in question actually rapes children... yeah, fuck him. If on the other hand, the dude doesnt act on his attraction, then no. Im kind of an extremist here. That would probably be the moral option but I personalty think threes some lines that should just be a flat out 'you cross it you die' kinda thing. I could understand a guy banging a 16 year old he thought was 18 but if he is sexually attracted to a 10 year old whatever wires are crossed in that guys brain should just be eliminated from our gene pool. Same goes for overt rape imo. Im sure this is not a popular position to take but any person who removes either of those two kinds of human beings from existence I would support. Decisions in this life have consequences and people do not recognize how hard bringing consequences to actions echos within society. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 197] Auteur : Helz Date : October 8th, 2020 02:05 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Not only are you fixated on a detail Kyle Rittenhouse wouldn't have been aware of (and is hence irrelevant to the judgement of his character), you're baiting people to get into some long argument about the actions of a single individual that we can project our political biases onto. How does proving Kyle Rittenhouse is a saint or the devil change anything whatsoever in the grand scheme of things? We'd all have exactly the same opinions if the incident played out totally differently or never happened. Meanwhile you're also stanning the idea of... indiscriminately killing people we believe to be paedophiles, irrespective of context, because apparently the only alternative is "allow(ing) them to rape their way through generations of our society." Quite an insight. Thats a bit of a jump. I did not intend "baiting people to get into some long argument about the actions of a single individual that we can project our political biases onto" if that is what I did. But yeah. I 100% support indiscriminately killing pedophiles. The 'We think are' bit causes quite a bit of issues but I don't think that can of worms is worth going into I respect your insights into a lot of topics, but this was like watching you puke over your computer screen lol. As terrible as it is to say I had to discover what I said by reading my post. To be blunt if I am rambling about politics on an internet forum I am almost certainly hammered drunk. For years SC2Mafia has been the place I vent my drunk/crazy/whatever which is a questionable decision but also kinda interesting to me. On a meta-cognitive level I am a little fascinated at seeing what I ramble on about when I am black out drunk even if I am quite honestly embarrassed about it. I kinda throw it into the model of Johari's window recognizing my posts represent a part of myself I wouldn't otherwise see if that makes sense? So anyways. Well put with the 'this was like watching you puke over your computer screen' bit. Lol -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 198] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 8th, 2020 03:07 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Thats a bit of a jump. I did not intend "baiting people to get into some long argument about the actions of a single individual that we can project our political biases onto" if that is what I did. But yeah. I 100% support indiscriminately killing pedophiles. The 'We think are' bit causes quite a bit of issues but I don't think that can of worms is worth going into As terrible as it is to say I had to discover what I said by reading my post. To be blunt if I am rambling about politics on an internet forum I am almost certainly hammered drunk. For years SC2Mafia has been the place I vent my drunk/crazy/whatever which is a questionable decision but also kinda interesting to me. On a meta-cognitive level I am a little fascinated at seeing what I ramble on about when I am black out drunk even if I am quite honestly embarrassed about it. I kinda throw it into the model of Johari's window recognizing my posts represent a part of myself I wouldn't otherwise see if that makes sense? So anyways. Well put with the 'this was like watching you puke over your computer screen' bit. Lol Don't sweat it man. I kinda clocked you were drunk but didn't wanna say in case it really was just a sober take on a terrible day lol. I read everything I post 2-3 times and wince when I mispell something. You have my sympathies 😅 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 199] Auteur : Helz Date : October 8th, 2020 07:28 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump So for those who are interested in a breakdown of the objective facts of the Kyle Rittenhouse shooting: -Kyle Rittenhouse ran around with a gun to defend businesses in a town he didnt live in. This is specifically illegal because he was 17 and also because it was in violation of the local curfew. -Every other civilian that was out at that time was also in violation of curfew. -Earlier in the night Joseph Rosenbalm is recorded yelling 'Shoot me nigga' at another armed individual who may have been part of the group Kyle Rittenhouse was with -At some point the 'protesters' light a dumpster on fire with the intention of rolling the dumpster at some police. Rittenhouse walks up with a fire extinguisher and puts out the literal dumpster fire with a fire extinguisher which makes people mad. Rittenhouse then begins to run away pursued by some of the protesters. -Rosenbalm catches up to Kyle at a dealership and throws 'something' in a plastic bag at Rittenhouse. (Its obviously something heavy but not a Molotov like some people claim) A second or two later an unidentified individual fires a handgun from the direction Rittenhouse was running away from. Rittenhouse turns around and Rosenbalm (according to Richard McGinnis witness statements) attempts to grab hold of the Rittenhouse's gun. Rittenhouse fires 4-5 times fatally injuring Rosenbalm. The medical examiners report shows a graze to the head, hit to the right groin, hit to the back which pierced both the lung and liver, shot through the hand, and a graze to the lateral left thigh. -Rittenhouse hangs around for a bit immediately getting on the phone. It turns out he was not calling 911 but instead was calling his friend Dominic Black (supposedly someone who was in his 'armed anti-riot group') -The crowed starts to turn on Rittenhouse and he runs north on Sheridan Road. An unidentified individual punches him in the back of the head knocking his hat off as he runs until he trips. -Another unidentified individual runs up to him and does a flying kick at Rittenhouse. Rittenhouse fires at the person missing. -Anthony Huber then smashes Rittenhouse in the back with a skateboard and attempts to take his rifle (by city's criminal complaint statement, video and eye witness statements) and Rittenhouse shoots him in the heart (according to the medical examiner). The shot was fatal with Huber only making it a few steps before taking the room temperature challenge. -Gaige Grosskreutz then runs up (with a pistol in hand) to Rittenhouse and grabs at his rifle (by video and eye witness statements) and Rittenhouse fires hitting Grosskreutz in the bicep. -Rittenhouse then repeatedly yells "Stay back" while doing a 360 and other shots from unknown origin are fired (Appears to be 2 separate shooters firing off camera) -Police then approach the situation in armored vehicles and Rittenhouse approaches the vehicles with his hands up but police ignore him. -Gaige Grosskreutz later posts photos on social media of him holding his injured arm with a gun in his hand in spite of his possession of a firearm being illegal due to his status as a multiple felon. Joseph Rosenbalm has a criminal record: sexual conduct with a minor a second count of sexual conduct with a minor interfering with a monitoring device Along with some 40 counts in jail which include at least 5 counts of assaulting staff, 1 count of assault with a weapon, and a count of arson Anthony Huber has a criminal record of: 2nd degree endangering safety with a modifier of using a deadly weapon and a modifier of domestic violence Strangulation with a modifier of domestic violence False imprisonment with a modifier of domestic violence Battery with a modifier of domestic violence and using a deadly weapon Disorderly conduct with a modifier of domestic violence and using a deadly weapon Disorderly conduct with a modifier of domestic abuse Battery with a modifier of repeater and a modifier of domestic abuse Disorderly conduct with a modifier of repeater and a modifier of domestic abuse Gaige P Grosskreutz has a criminal record of: Theft of movable property Burglary of a building or dwelling Criminal trespassing of a building or dwelling Disorderly conduct Armed with a Firearm while intoxicated A lot of this I had to do research to find but here is a pretty good video that seems to have no political motivation detailing a very nice video breakdown. That channel also has some pretty funny points to make about Rittenhous' defense team. Hopefully this will clear the air on some of the Rittenhouse nonsense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DsUELsonDk&list=PL3Iiaitp6GYnTcNchrduQvaBk2Cp8xp0f&index=13 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 200] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 8th, 2020 09:39 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Kyle Rittenshite : play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The prize for him? Guilty on all charges as an adult, a decent amount of jail time, and good luck finding any kind of employment (other than fox news). yikes (!!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 201] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 9th, 2020 05:05 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Im not sure why you are so caught up in American politics for current day or from a hundred years ago but I will say I think your life would probably be better off without the toxicity that it breeds. I dislike how American politics has become so global recently and theres this toxic stigma attached to having some beliefs. Just supporting an event is seen as support for a political party and theres a huge push to say anything republican = evil. I hate this insistence that American politics are isolated in a bubble, it's such a disingenuous way of shutting down discourse on issues that affect people in their day-to-day lives. America is a major world power, American politics influence global economics and stability. If America goes tits-up because you lot couldn't get your shit together then that hurts my home country and family economically, and in the worst case could affect us even more directly if any sort of conflict spills over. Not to mention the omnipresence of Americans on all sorts of social media and the internet resulting in the exporting of pathological elements of American culture to the rest of the world, resulting in the rise of the alt-right and extremist groups (and also BLM and antifa if you're insistent on both-sidesing this) worldwide, though not entirely attributed to America it is something that was a result of American sentiment and problems spilling over. American interference in the middle east results in conflict that results in conflict and refugee crises in Europe. It was American economic mismanagement that led to the economic crisis of 2008. Americans flexed political power to drag other countries into wars, such as the UK and Canada. Your government shitting the bed on COVID resulted in plague rats spreading the virus to my home country (where the first cases came from America), and an ongoing fight to keep the borders closed. Not to mention Americans continuing to flout the rules by illegally entering and continuing to spread disease. So no, fuck off with the "American politics shouldn't be other people's concerns" excuse. They are. I'm curious to see what your "other option" is, and why it's so uniquely incompatible with any party that you reject all of them. I think you said before that you like Bernie Sanders, you realize that Bernie also recognizes that people should vote for Biden in this election as the lesser of two evils and with the goal of pushing the Democrat agenda closer to his own vision for America, right? The reason people accuse you of being a Republican or conservative is because all I've seen from you so far is a huge amount of concern trolling about the American left and liberals, and not a single admonishment against the right, even in the context of the start of this thread where your response to Trump refusing to say whether he'll accept the results of the election was "well hmm maybe the left won't either so really they're both bad". I don't think I've ever seen you criticize American conservatives, or Republicans, without footnoting it with a statement about how the "other side" is bad too. At best you bust out the "why does it matter, it doesn't affect my day-to-day life, etc." argument. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 202] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 05:12 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I'm kind of amazed that kid was able to handle himself as well as he did tbh. I would've been shitting my pants and I'm 3 years older than him LOL. That situation sounds all kinds of fucked. From people legit shooting him or trying to take away his gun (why? why would you do that?!), to him having to put out a dumpster fire: it sounds like a fucking warzone lol. Where's my 'peaceful protesters' in all of this? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 203] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 05:24 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Kyle Rittenshite : play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The prize for him? Guilty on all charges as an adult, a decent amount of jail time, and good luck finding any kind of employment (other than fox news). yikes (!!) "play stupid games" The police called for armed civilians to come help them with the riots. Answering the call is not playing stupid games. "Win stupid prizes" The defense for him is very strong and at worst he'll spend time in jail for going against curfew/firing a gun at 17. I'm not even sure he's going to get sentenced because of the unique circumstances surrounding the case. "Good luck finding any kind of employment" Everyone knows who Kyle is, and people familiar with his case will definitely view it in his favour rather than against. I mean already facing off with a few dangerous dudes by yourself in a city you dont know sounds like you have balls of steel, and most employers like that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 204] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 9th, 2020 05:30 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I mean already facing off with a few dangerous dudes by yourself in a city you dont know sounds like you have balls of steel, and most employers like that. most employers like that. mate what -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 205] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 9th, 2020 05:45 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Any employer with a big brand won't want to be perceived by higher-ups as risking the company image, surely. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 206] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 06:12 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Any employer with a big brand won't want to be perceived by higher-ups as risking the company image, surely. Indeed but thats true of all controversial people/situations. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 207] Auteur : Voss Date : October 9th, 2020 07:34 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Read the last 5 posts, but I can't believe we're now defending 17 year old vigilantes. Face the fucking fact that if this was an ANTIFA member at the "unite the right" rally, republicans would be clamoring for the chair. But even if we want to legitimize the "self defense", it is ILLEGAL (a felony?) to drive across state lines TWICE, AS A MINOR with a fire arm. If this was someone OF AGE, and a WISCONSIN resident, this'd be a different story. If you want to be a gun touting hero, go sign up for the fucking military. Trump will deploy you to fight against the blue big bad cities. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 208] Auteur : Voss Date : October 9th, 2020 07:36 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump And to all y'all shitting on peaceful protesters, actual peaceful protesters have an interest in keeping things peaceful. I've been at peaceful protests, and the protest organizers work with the police to establish grounds. Neither party wants there to be violence, because it's bad for both sides. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 209] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 07:37 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump helz is not a republican and here he is defending him :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 210] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 07:40 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump i dont really understand this insistence that someone having ideas like helz's has to be republican, i personally know many people who hate trump and aren't republican, who also disagree with whats happening with the protests and shit and have ideas similar to helz's. one of them is also a bernie sanders supporter. personally, if i were american i would most probably be a republican since i dont really see any political party that represents me (even though the republicans themselves dont represent me very well). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 211] Auteur : Renegade Date : October 9th, 2020 07:41 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I look forward to the defense from you folk for the domestic terrorists who were just charged with planning to kidnap the Governor of Michigan :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 212] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 07:45 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump also, i would like someone who is a socialist to answer me a few questions i have because i think they're pretty original and i think theyre relevant for socialists and socialism: a) why aren't co-ops and shit like jewish kibbutzim discussed in the context of socialism? i think theyre the most compelling and successful examples and yet hardly anyone talks about them b) why aren't socialists advocating for 'personal socialism' or in any event a socialism that comes from people rather than the government? i mean i dont think the government can grant 'true' socialism for a variety of reasons, and even if it did, it would come through coercion since not everyone wants to partake in a socialist society. my idea of 'personal socialism' is that a group of people agree to live in a socialist manner, and form a company thats based on equal pay. when the company gets rich enough they start buying welfare for everyone and shit. why isnt that ever discussed? isn't that a 'freer' and even 'truer' form of socialism than the social liberalism thats usually promoted and advocated for nowadays? why wait for the government to give you things when you can just do it yourself? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 213] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 08:09 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I look forward to the defense from you folk for the domestic terrorists who were just charged with planning to kidnap the Governor of Michigan :) yes, absolutely, because planning to kidnap a state governor is comparable to killing someone in self-defense. i forgot. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 214] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 9th, 2020 08:50 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I'll answer this even though I'm not a socialist. a) why aren't co-ops and shit like jewish kibbutzim discussed in the context of socialism? i think theyre the most compelling and successful examples and yet hardly anyone talks about them They are. Especially worker coops, people talk about them all the time. b) why aren't socialists advocating for 'personal socialism' or in any event a socialism that comes from people rather than the government? i mean i dont think the government can grant 'true' socialism for a variety of reasons, and even if it did, it would come through coercion since not everyone wants to partake in a socialist society. Isn't this the charity vs welfare debate? The reason that this isn't advocated for as much by socialists is because private determination of where funds go potentially results in conflicts of interest and coercion and lobbying of charities by the wealthy. Additionally, charities that people donate to are often not in line with what a nation might need. People donate for big, glamourous causes such as disasters like hurricanes, but the scale of donations to end poverty and hunger in America are severely dwarfed by what the government does (which is still not enough, at least in the US, since there's still a large amount of poverty). Almost 1/3 of charity dollars in the US are donated to religious institutions, which is conflicting on its own because it ties aid for people to religiousness. The "coercion" you're talking about is commonly referred to as "taxes". If we look at this in the context of America, what you'll find is that historically charity giving has remained at 2% of the GDP of the US. This is despite any tax cuts. It doesn't seem that lowering taxes gives people "more money" to donate to charity, thus any cuts to government social welfare won't be redirected through charities due to less taxes, and just results in less social welfare overall even if charities are effective. my idea of 'personal socialism' is that a group of people agree to live in a socialist manner, and form a company thats based on equal pay. when the company gets rich enough they start buying welfare for everyone and shit. why isnt that ever discussed? isn't that a 'freer' and even 'truer' form of socialism than the social liberalism thats usually promoted and advocated for nowadays? why wait for the government to give you things when you can just do it yourself? So, a worker's coop? Those already exist. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 215] Auteur : Helz Date : October 9th, 2020 09:10 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I hate this insistence that American politics are isolated in a bubble, it's such a disingenuous way of shutting down discourse on issues that affect people in their day-to-day lives. America is a major world power, American politics influence global economics and stability. If America goes tits-up because you lot couldn't get your shit together then that hurts my home country and family economically, and in the worst case could affect us even more directly if any sort of conflict spills over. Not to mention the omnipresence of Americans on all sorts of social media and the internet resulting in the exporting of pathological elements of American culture to the rest of the world, resulting in the rise of the alt-right and extremist groups (and also BLM and antifa if you're insistent on both-sidesing this) worldwide, though not entirely attributed to America it is something that was a result of American sentiment and problems spilling over. American interference in the middle east results in conflict that results in conflict and refugee crises in Europe. It was American economic mismanagement that led to the economic crisis of 2008. Americans flexed political power to drag other countries into wars, such as the UK and Canada. Your government shitting the bed on COVID resulted in plague rats spreading the virus to my home country (where the first cases came from America), and an ongoing fight to keep the borders closed. Not to mention Americans continuing to flout the rules by illegally entering and continuing to spread disease. So no, fuck off with the "American politics shouldn't be other people's concerns" excuse. They are. I'm curious to see what your "other option" is, and why it's so uniquely incompatible with any party that you reject all of them. I think you said before that you like Bernie Sanders, you realize that Bernie also recognizes that people should vote for Biden in this election as the lesser of two evils and with the goal of pushing the Democrat agenda closer to his own vision for America, right? One of the things I feel is very true is how disproportionate peoples political focus is vs the direct impact on their lives. My life has been relatively the same under every president going back to Clinton and very few actions have had any noticeable direct impact on me at all. When I bring this up to people who are consumed by politics its been extremely rare they can point to any direct impact past health insurance going to hell or receiving a small stimulus payment. In a word the attention, stress and conflict generated by politics for the individual is disproportionate to the actual impact it has on the individuals life. I agree with you that its not fair for me to say "American politics shouldn't be other people's concerns"; but I do feel even many Americans lives would be better off without the toxic stress generated from focusing on it so much. Although this is true for the American Citizen its even more true for the global Citizen. Yes America has a huge world impact but once again the focus American politics is being given by the global public is disproportionate to the impact it will have on the persons life. Additionally consider the ability of the individual to influence the direction of a national election. If I were to spend all day every day screaming at people over the election or protesting in the streets how many individual votes could I swing? Maybe it was an effective use of time at one point but these days I can say that I personally am constantly pushed from all sides on the subject. In a word I would also argue that the ability of the individual to influence an election is once again, disproportionate to the stress and conflict generated by political focus for the individual. The most important factor though runs right in line with your question I'm curious to see what your "other option" is, and why it's so uniquely incompatible with any party that you reject all of them.I do not believe the American Citizen has a voice anymore. Even if we democratically elect our official as soon as they are in office they have no reason to act in our best interest past getting elected again in a few years. At the same time they have a financial interest in acting in favor for corporate lobbyists. This is a systemic issue that neither the republican nor the democratic party's have any intention of addressing and it directly impacts the individuals influence over how he is governed. This is heavily reflected in American Tax policy. The basic ethical justification for tax deductions is to say "I support this cause that benefits society so I will give my money to it instead of the government." I feel this is truly democratic allowing for the individual to control the majority of how his taxes will impact society. Yet now corporations take tax deductions for lobbying against public interest to congress. They not only get to have direct influence but they get to avoid contributing to society for the privilege. Addressing these sorts of things could create real systemic change allowing for the individual to have more power over how he is governed. One of the more significant issues I take with republicans is that while sanctimoniously pushing to increase corporate influence they also push against increasing corporate liability. I believe the two must be connected. If you are going to declare an incorporated entity to have the rights of an individual and give that 'individual' power over me then he should be beholden and accountable for the impacts of his actions on the individual. This is something the Democrats get right in spirit but do very poorly in execution. I also take critical issue with republican leadership using their positions of power to gain wealth. When COVID started Senators Kelly Loeffler and Richard Burr used privileged information gained from private briefings on the upcoming crisis to move their stock positions around and make millions. Thats flatly illegal but in typical fashion Republican leadership likes to thump about accountability until that means holding someone with wealth accountable. The typical cosmetic focus on things like immigration is very hypocritical. In 2001 my buddy started working in the oil field as a floorhand for 18 an hour. In 2011 I started working in the oil field as a floorhand for 18 an hour. In 2019 my buddy started working in the oil field as a floorhand for 19 an hour. Thats a 1$ raise in 18 years while inflation rose 47% in that time. People like to poke fun at the 'They took our jeeerbs' rhetoric but on a very basic level this exists through abuse of the Visa program. Companies are able to refuse to raise wages and then turn around and say 'we cant get laborers, import some.' Then the republican party uses this impact to market to the blue collar American pushing cosmetic promises. Today I literally refuse to take on labor jobs unless I hold the contract because in Texas labor wages have been frozen (and depreciated due to inflation) for the last 30 years or so. I could ramble on about issues I take with the Republican party for ever if you would like but this should give you an idea of why I do not see reform as an option. I draw back to the question I asked myself earlier this year of 'Are we actually totally incompetent as a society to influence change or do the individuals with the ability to influence change simply have things the way they want them?' when you consider how little has really changed over the last 40 years. The issue I take with the democrats is largely the same at heart. They take a position like "Lets fix healthcare" and then go about it in the most bullshit way of subsidizing capitalism or they push 'lets fix lobbying' while sneaking in clever ways to keep any proposed bill utterly cosmetic. When they push for systemic change its always systemic change in their favor. Eliminate the electoral college because it will help them win elections. Increase the amount of Supreme Court Judges and place term limits when the Supreme Court is not in their favor. It also really irks me to the core to hear the bullshit rhetoric of "I want this good thing done and I want someone else to do it, and (more importantly) to pay for it." Democratically run states are utterly financially incompetent. I get that seeing human suffering and knowing you can do something to end it is a moral and good thing but the policy of pretending money is unlimited is a very juvenile view. I appreciate the sentiment of 'Lets help the homeless' but I have to date never even herd of a democratic politician who has taken on into their home and made a personal sacrifice to back up their would be convictions. I can say on the same coin I have done as much 3 times and may be about to go for a 4th in the next month or so. Theres something very basic to be said about when someone talks a lot and does not act on their own words. One of my favorite storys to date in line with this is the Oxford dean offering to shut of central heating for students who were protesting environmental impacts. Its easy to argue something is 'right' but the true measure of a man is if he is willing to take action and personal sacrifice for his convictions. I believe desire without personal sacrifice is worse than apathy for the cost it brings to others to fulfill the whims and postulated convictions of a coward. Local government is a different matter. The individual has a much stronger voice and can directly influence change while also being directly impacted by the decisions made. There it makes much more sense to me to be involved in politics. I could tell you very clear ways myself and my family has been effected by local government. The reason people accuse you of being a Republican or conservative is because all I've seen from you so far is a huge amount of concern trolling about the American left and liberals, and not a single admonishment against the right, even in the context of the start of this thread where your response to Trump refusing to say whether he'll accept the results of the election was "well hmm maybe the left won't either so really they're both bad". I don't think I've ever seen you criticize American conservatives, or Republicans, without footnoting it with a statement about how the "other side" is bad too. At best you bust out the "why does it matter, it doesn't affect my day-to-day life, etc." argument. Thats fair. Feel free to ask me more about what I hate about the republican party and I could go on for days. My biggest problem with america right now is the riots so yeah, Im sure I bitch about democrats more than republicans. I realized something yesterday that came from this thread. We have a new issue with social categorization on a global level. Social categorization is something done naturally and subconsciously which Yzb touched on nicely when he said you're baiting people to get into some long argument about the actions of a single individual that we can project our political biases onto. This is exactly whats happening- we are pushing political category's onto beliefs and thinking about the issues with political bias. Whats worse is the polarization of politics is so extreme something viewed as detrimental to a persons political affiliation is now taken as a personal attack. Just consider this Rittenhouse situation. If anyone says 'I feel he was defending himself' that is taken as a Republican stance. But why? It use to be that we would cite beliefs and stances as something a political party took as a trait of that party but now we are categorizing the belief or stance as belonging to that political party. The difference is subtle but important and is having a big impact; even on the conversation in this thread. What does that say about us as a society when I can't hold a belief without being pigeonholed into a political party for doing so? The more I look at that the more insane I feel it is that its taken as normality. How did we get to the point that beliefs are piratically owned globally by one of two American political party's and nobody bats an eye at those logic jumps? I do not totally understand what process that is thats creating this but its going to be my next little obsessive thought project. This issue represents a systemic change in the way we interact and its an extremely toxic one that bothers me. The answer is somewhere between semiotics and social categorization and I feel that its important to understand on a meta-cognitive level given the impact its having on basic interactions across the globe. Im sorry for writing you a book here. I honestly was uncomfortable that the last 2 times I came to this forum I was black out drunk posting and felt that although its something I enjoy, its slightly disrespectful to people who genuinely carry serious discussion. So I kinda felt I owed you a sober response. Regardless of what you think about me I do respect your intelligence and I enjoy the way you challenge my thoughts and beliefs. I think you said before that you like Bernie Sanders, you realize that Bernie also recognizes that people should vote for Biden in this election as the lesser of two evils and with the goal of pushing the Democrat agenda closer to his own vision for America, right? Bernies vision for the democratic party makes sense to me. I dislike that he is convoluting socialism with subsidized capitalism but he seems to genuinely push for change outside of the existing power structure. The problem is as you pointed out its moving for "the lesser of two evils." I think thats the largest impediment to really causing positive change in this world. Compromise is good when each side gets what they want but its terrible when your looking at the option between two bad choices; especially when there is a third thats a better way. As long as people focus on ensuring the 'enemy looses' the toxic power structures will maintain their strangle hold on how the world is governed. I know you look at my position as one of indecision but I feel its a very focused decision. If you are interested I can go into the actions I am taking to correct things I take issue with. I just do not feel that voting in a national election holds any value. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 216] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 9th, 2020 09:29 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Helz, I don't really have time or motivation to get into wallpost-replying, but your attitude towards politics, which you are not the sole representant of, is terrible for societies. Democracy only works if the people gets involved and sees further than local, here-and-now issues. If the people doesn't actively take the power it has gained, the power will fall back in the hands of a few powerful people (and that is what is happening, as you correctly highlighted by talking about corporations and lobbyism going against public interest). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 217] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 9th, 2020 09:43 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump also, i would like someone who is a socialist to answer me a few questions i have because i think they're pretty original and i think theyre relevant for socialists and socialism: a) why aren't co-ops and shit like jewish kibbutzim discussed in the context of socialism? i think theyre the most compelling and successful examples and yet hardly anyone talks about them b) why aren't socialists advocating for 'personal socialism' or in any event a socialism that comes from people rather than the government? i mean i dont think the government can grant 'true' socialism for a variety of reasons, and even if it did, it would come through coercion since not everyone wants to partake in a socialist society. my idea of 'personal socialism' is that a group of people agree to live in a socialist manner, and form a company thats based on equal pay. when the company gets rich enough they start buying welfare for everyone and shit. why isnt that ever discussed? isn't that a 'freer' and even 'truer' form of socialism than the social liberalism thats usually promoted and advocated for nowadays? why wait for the government to give you things when you can just do it yourself? a) They are! Co-ops are a great way for workers to help eachother without major drawbacks. As for kibbutzim, it's a completely different thing: it implies significant way of life-specific changes abiding to that, if I'm not mistaken. Those who wish to live by that will probably find their life significantly improved by it, but those who do not wish to live by that will simply not fit in. Such an organization is infinitely more restrictive than a real socialist (not communist) government, because it goes into its members' way of life, unlike a socialist government which basically only asks you to pay more taxes to give services and redistribute wealth. b) Some are; this idea is not new. It even exists since at least a century: I remember reading a manifesto of a socialist who lived not long after the Paris Commune, talking about how the Jacobins became socialists "by necessity" instead of "by conviction", and advocating for a permanent and spontanous movement from the masses to "keep the revolution alive". What you're talking about is called anarcho-socialism, and it has the inherent issue of anarchism: the lack of order and stability, which leads to a lack of means to actually help people on a long-term basis. The state provides order and stability. It's up to the people to make sure it uses order and stability in a way that benefits the people (which is a bit what I was telling Helz in my last post). This thread sure derailed a bit lol, it wasn't meant to be about socialism :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 218] Auteur : Helz Date : October 9th, 2020 09:50 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Read the last 5 posts, but I can't believe we're now defending 17 year old vigilantes. Face the fucking fact that if this was an ANTIFA member at the "unite the right" rally, republicans would be clamoring for the chair. But even if we want to legitimize the "self defense", it is ILLEGAL (a felony?) to drive across state lines TWICE, AS A MINOR with a fire arm. If this was someone OF AGE, and a WISCONSIN resident, this'd be a different story. If you want to be a gun touting hero, go sign up for the fucking military. Trump will deploy you to fight against the blue big bad cities. I look forward to the defense from you folk for the domestic terrorists who were just charged with planning to kidnap the Governor of Michigan :) Im curious. Unless you want to argue it was morally wrong of him to use a fire extinguisher on a dumpster that rioters were about to roll at other people what should he have done differently? Should he not have defended himself when a 36 year old man ran him down attacking him with a deadly weapon and hearing gunshots? He should not have been there but nobody out there should have. Every person out there was in violation of the law but the simple difference is that 17 year old man was not the aggressor. He was not the one pushing physical violence- he was running away to avoid it and taking actions to prevent others from using violence. All 3 of the people shot were attacking him as he attempted to run away. I would genuinely like to hear you justify Joseph Rosenbalm, Anthony Huber, or Gaige Grosskreutzs actions. The definition of a vigilante is someone who "who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority." How can you be critical of Rittenhouse for putting out a literal dumpster fire but not critical of Rosenbalm attacking him or the other two 'undertaking law enforcement without legal authority' after Rittenhouse shot Rosenbalm? This is a very hypocritical stance if you want to argue Rosenbalm's actions are not ok because of the vigilante aspect. Either being a vigilante is ok or its not but it can not be both if you want to take that position. The only tenable position you have is to say "Well Rittenhouse should never have been there" which then puts your only moral argument about him being there and invalidates the shootings from my point of view. I could just as easily say "If we didn't empty the prisons we wouldn't have a bunch of felons attacking a 17 year old" which is a bad faith argument. Im not sure how you do not see a moral difference between running away and using violence in defense, vs attacking a person for putting out your act of arson before you attempt to attack other people. I also do not think its fair to compare a plotted kidnapping; although I would personally support an ANTIFA person defending their life. Political affiliation does not invalidate a humans beings right to avoid being hurt in my book. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 219] Auteur : Voss Date : October 9th, 2020 09:52 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Let's talk about the very related topic of how demoRATs are fearmongering on climate change folks, because that's why republican's aren't nazis. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 220] Auteur : Helz Date : October 9th, 2020 09:55 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Helz, I don't really have time or motivation to get into wallpost-replying, but your attitude towards politics, which you are not the sole representant of, is terrible for societies. Democracy only works if the people gets involved and sees further than local, here-and-now issues. If the people doesn't actively take the power it has gained, the power will fall back in the hands of a few powerful people (and that is what is happening, as you correctly highlighted by talking about corporations and lobbyism going against public interest). I agree, but you are connecting two separate points I made. My point that citizens lack influence on government was in the direction of people being consumed by political toxicity while my point about corporate lobbying and governing conflicts of interest was in the direction of not choosing the 'lesser of two evils.' Being involved is important but I do not see casting a vote as a functional solution until people stop picking between the lesser of two evils that preserves the systemic issues. With that said if you still feel my position is wrong let me know. I am not advocating for apathy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 221] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 9th, 2020 09:58 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I agree, but you are connecting two separate points I made. My point that citizens lack influence on government was in the direction of people being consumed by political toxicity while my point about corporate lobbying and governing conflicts of interest was in the direction of not choosing the 'lesser of two evils.' Being involved is important but I do not see casting a vote as a functional solution until people stop picking between the lesser of two evils that preserves the systemic issues. With that said if you still feel my position is wrong let me know. I am not advocating for apathy. Ah, ok, then it was a misunderstanding on my part, because I completely agree with you. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 222] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 09:58 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I'll answer this even though I'm not a socialist. They are. Especially worker coops, people talk about them all the time. Isn't this the charity vs welfare debate? The reason that this isn't advocated for as much by socialists is because private determination of where funds go potentially results in conflicts of interest and coercion and lobbying of charities by the wealthy. Additionally, charities that people donate to are often not in line with what a nation might need. People donate for big, glamourous causes such as disasters like hurricanes, but the scale of donations to end poverty and hunger in America are severely dwarfed by what the government does (which is still not enough, at least in the US, since there's still a large amount of poverty). Almost 1/3 of charity dollars in the US are donated to religious institutions, which is conflicting on its own because it ties aid for people to religiousness. The "coercion" you're talking about is commonly referred to as "taxes". If we look at this in the context of America, what you'll find is that historically charity giving has remained at 2% of the GDP of the US. This is despite any tax cuts. It doesn't seem that lowering taxes gives people "more money" to donate to charity, thus any cuts to government social welfare won't be redirected through charities due to less taxes, and just results in less social welfare overall even if charities are effective. So, a worker's coop? Those already exist. "isn't this the charity vs welfare debate" possibly although not necessarily since i wasn't referring to private charity (IMO private charity isn't really socialism, any more than welfare in an otherwise capitalist society is). "the coercion you're talking about is taxes" i suppose it would be in a largely capitalist society with welfare although there are other forms of coercion that would go along with it such as having to sign up for social security. "those already exist" i'm happy to hear that but they never get talked about, and many of the most popular socialist politicians seem to ignore them or advocate ideas/policies that have essentially nothing to do with worker co-ops. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 223] Auteur : Helz Date : October 9th, 2020 10:00 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Let's talk about the very related topic of how demoRATs are fearmongering on climate change folks, because that's why republican's aren't nazis. Sure. Climate change is objectively true but the presented solutions are cash grabs. The carbon footprint of solar panels and whole home batteries are much larger than burning fossil fuels to generate energy but its presented as a 'green solution.' Moronic ideas like "Using recycled metal studs instead of wood" to build a house are pushed in my industry although, once again, the carbon footprint is higher by a factor of around 10. Here we can see the Republicrats pushing against the Democrans on green energy issues with the Democrans grabbing the moral high ground while pushing lucrative nonsensical policy and the Republicrats arguing good sense to justify filling their pocket book while trashing the environment. Either way the planet looses. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 224] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 9th, 2020 10:15 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump That you assert that most people are unaffected by national policy comes from a place of profound privilege, and it's fortunate for you that you have not experienced these effects. I, for one, know many people whose lives and life plans have been changed due to the American federal government's decisions, myself included. I even have family whose lives have been directly positively influenced by Trump being elected. You are essentially faulting people for having empathy, no matter which party they support. I'm also not gonna comment on your large post where you talk about Republican/Democrat problems. There are things I take issue with there but my points are largely irrelevant to the discussion and I don't want to get sidetracked. I would like to point out, though, that you notably didn't provide a stance of your own or how that stance would be accomplished (or maybe you did and I glossed over it). Could you, more concretely, talk about that? The whole point about the "lesser of two evils" does make it seem quite bleak, yet it's the best you'll get under the flawed structure that we have in the US now. If you want to get anything better, you'll have to go with serious electoral reform (not just the Electoral College thing, but changing the voting system to get rid of a two-party system and allow niche parties to get representation) or some other drastic change. I truly don't believe that will come without a phenomenal paradigm shift, in fact I think it would take no less than armed revolution and/or the dissolution of the US as we know it. That is a very dire outcome, in my opinion. I can't say I love the Democratic party, particularly not the establishment, I actually think they suck in many ways, but I've resigned myself to the real-world facts that it's the best we'll get. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 225] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 9th, 2020 10:18 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump "those already exist" i'm happy to hear that but they never get talked about, and many of the most popular socialist politicians seem to ignore them or advocate ideas/policies that have essentially nothing to do with worker co-ops. Because socialist politicians deal with national policy, while worker coops are a private concern. National policy on worker coops is just... regular socialism. All my socialist friends talk about how worker coops are great all the time. It's not an ignored thing at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 226] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 10:20 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump a) They are! Co-ops are a great way for workers to help eachother without major drawbacks. As for kibbutzim, it's a completely different thing: it implies significant way of life-specific changes abiding to that, if I'm not mistaken. Those who wish to live by that will probably find their life significantly improved by it, but those who do not wish to live by that will simply not fit in. Such an organization is infinitely more restrictive than a real socialist (not communist) government, because it goes into its members' way of life, unlike a socialist government which basically only asks you to pay more taxes to give services and redistribute wealth. b) Some are; this idea is not new. It even exists since at least a century: I remember reading a manifesto of a socialist who lived not long after the Paris Commune, talking about how the Jacobins became socialists "by necessity" instead of "by conviction", and advocating for a permanent and spontanous movement from the masses to "keep the revolution alive". What you're talking about is called anarcho-socialism, and it has the inherent issue of anarchism: the lack of order and stability, which leads to a lack of means to actually help people on a long-term basis. The state provides order and stability. It's up to the people to make sure it uses order and stability in a way that benefits the people (which is a bit what I was telling Helz in my last post). This thread sure derailed a bit lol, it wasn't meant to be about socialism :D a) They are indeed but nobody is talking about them. I don't know much about exactly what kibbutzim imply but i believe they enforce communal ownership and equal pay; i.e. exactly what a truly socialist society implies. "A real socialist government" Please qualify what you mean by 'socialist government' because I feel we have very different notions of 'socialism' If we're talking about a generally capitalist society that has a welfare safety net, I don't think thats real socialism because private property still exists and the concept of 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" isn't enforced, which I believe it should be in a socialist society (i suppose we can look up exactly what socialism means if need be). in any event, a capitalist society with some aspects of socialism is i believe very inefficient because it gives the government power that it doesnt really need and it also restricts capitalists from doing what they do best, e.g. produce wealth. furthermore just as plotato said, nobody can really agree on what the minimum level of sustenance the government should provide is. a socialist co-op can agree on that far, far faster than any government; they would just put the matter to a vote and see what the minimum level of security everyone should have is. b) im not really convinced by the assertion that it lacks the means to support people in the long-term. many kibbutzim are actually quite wealthy and work in the military industry. i'd also want to state that im not advocating for the dissolution of the government, btw. im advocating for the existence and formation of such organizations or micro-societies in the society we already live. e.g., market socialism rather than anarcho-socialism. part of the reason im saying this is because i think people should practice what they preach - someone who believes in an idea should go about living in a manner that is consistent with that idea: hence why i find this idea attractive; it doesnt piss off capitalists, who dont care about restrictions in a society they dont partake in (especially seeing as the people in that society consent to those restrictions), and it doesnt piss off socialists, who can live in a socialist society that actually works. people can roll back legislation in a government and it takes time for everyone to even agree on what the government should provide: it takes time for the population to reach a consensus, it takes time for the different branches of government to implement it, it takes time to allocate enough money for it, etc... and on top of it some dude can get elected and rollback all of it. i think companies, especially the ones that survive the first ~10-20 uears (i just gave you a number out of my ass) are more stable than the government, though. people can always join or found a new co-op if the one they are in goes bankrupt, too. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 227] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 10:23 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Sure. Climate change is objectively true but the presented solutions are cash grabs. The carbon footprint of solar panels and whole home batteries are much larger than burning fossil fuels to generate energy but its presented as a 'green solution.' Moronic ideas like "Using recycled metal studs instead of wood" to build a house are pushed in my industry although, once again, the carbon footprint is higher by a factor of around 10. Here we can see the Republicrats pushing against the Democrans on green energy issues with the Democrans grabbing the moral high ground while pushing lucrative nonsensical policy and the Republicrats arguing good sense to justify filling their pocket book while trashing the environment. Either way the planet looses. Don't particularly care about the political aspects of climate change, but are you aware that carbon emissions and the rate at which temperate is increasing have both been going down for the past 20 years in post-industrialized countries? carbon emissions are down 20% in the US, if I'm not mistaken. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 228] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 10:46 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump also, I love the point Helz made about how many of the people who argue for e.g. the homeless having homes don't actually live in accordance with that idea. thats exactly one of the things i like about worker co-ops and the like - its not an experiment that everyone has to partake in, and if you fuck something up, it's on YOU. people should take more responsibility themselves before pushing for government enforcement of welfare and the like. thats what i like about co-ops: it emphasizes personal responsibility. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 229] Auteur : Helz Date : October 9th, 2020 10:55 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Don't particularly care about the political aspects of climate change, but are you aware that carbon emissions and the rate at which temperate is increasing have both been going down for the past 20 years in post-industrialized countries? carbon emissions are down 20% in the US, if I'm not mistaken. What you are touching on is "Milankovitch cycles" and yes. I am aware. This does represent cyclical change in temperature but does not invalidate global warming. It relates to the way the world moves around the sun and rotates in context to changes in Eccentricity, Axial Precession, and changes in Obliquity over around 100000, 25000 and 40000 year periods respectively. On the most basic level what we know about climate change comes from examination of ice cores. Within very old ice there is very old air bubbles. Those air bubbles can be examined to understand simple things like amounts of greenhouse gases and oxygen levels which can be used to extrapolate things like temperature. In a very basic way global temperature has been extremely strongly correlated with greenhouse gases. I say correlation instead of causation on the same margin you should consider the 'Theory of Gravity' a 'Theory.' Basically over the last 300 years Carbon Dioxide, Methane and Nitrous Oxide numbers have doubled and are higher than they have ever been found throughout history by our understanding of testing ice cores. There is also the theoretical connection between the magnetosphere and ice ages but thats a can of worms better not touched on although I think there is something to it. In addition the introduction of Chlorofluorocarbons has eliminated massive amounts of ozone (with 1 molecule of Chlorofluorocarbons eliminating around 10,000 ozone molecules.) There is also significant impact of the elimination of rain forests to make room for cattle farming. This translates to less plants that convert Carbon Dioxide into oxygen with more mammals who convert oxygen into Carbon Dioxide while producing substantial amounts of Methane. The part most people do not understand is that these temperature changes are gradual because the ocean is big and acts as a thermal dampener. So if right now we were able to stop any increase in greenhouse gasses, stop chlorofluorocarbons influence on ozone, and stop the reduction of plants global temperature would still rise for around 45 years. I am not sure where you got the reduction in carbon emissions figure but I feel like even if thats true its probably just exported industry. America loves to pretend to be 'green' by 'recycling plastics' even when that just translates to shipping our plastics to a third world country who then throws it in the ocean, burns it or buries it. America loves to stick up their nose at China citing how much more pollution China makes but in ratio to citizens China is over twice as efficient as America and America is literally the worst in the world. I kinda think of global warming like the national debt. Either political party cares about one but pretends the other does not matter and figures their kids will pay for it but both are totally a significant issue. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 230] Auteur : Helz Date : October 9th, 2020 10:59 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump also, I love the point Helz made about how many of the people who argue for e.g. the homeless having homes don't actually live in accordance with that idea. thats exactly one of the things i like about worker co-ops and the like - its not an experiment that everyone has to partake in, and if you fuck something up, it's on YOU. people should take more responsibility themselves before pushing for government enforcement of welfare and the like. thats what i like about co-ops: it emphasizes personal responsibility. I feel like that is the defining difference between the two party's. Republicans focus on personal accountability while Democrats focus on social justice and inequality. For all the flaws each side has their core message generally floats around those justified concepts. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 231] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 9th, 2020 01:13 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump What you are touching on is "Milankovitch cycles" and yes. I am aware. This does represent cyclical change in temperature but does not invalidate global warming. It relates to the way the world moves around the sun and rotates in context to changes in Eccentricity, Axial Precession, and changes in Obliquity over around 100000, 25000 and 40000 year periods respectively. On the most basic level what we know about climate change comes from examination of ice cores. Within very old ice there is very old air bubbles. Those air bubbles can be examined to understand simple things like amounts of greenhouse gases and oxygen levels which can be used to extrapolate things like temperature. In a very basic way global temperature has been extremely strongly correlated with greenhouse gases. I say correlation instead of causation on the same margin you should consider the 'Theory of Gravity' a 'Theory.' Basically over the last 300 years Carbon Dioxide, Methane and Nitrous Oxide numbers have doubled and are higher than they have ever been found throughout history by our understanding of testing ice cores. There is also the theoretical connection between the magnetosphere and ice ages but thats a can of worms better not touched on although I think there is something to it. In addition the introduction of Chlorofluorocarbons has eliminated massive amounts of ozone (with 1 molecule of Chlorofluorocarbons eliminating around 10,000 ozone molecules.) There is also significant impact of the elimination of rain forests to make room for cattle farming. This translates to less plants that convert Carbon Dioxide into oxygen with more mammals who convert oxygen into Carbon Dioxide while producing substantial amounts of Methane. The part most people do not understand is that these temperature changes are gradual because the ocean is big and acts as a thermal dampener. So if right now we were able to stop any increase in greenhouse gasses, stop chlorofluorocarbons influence on ozone, and stop the reduction of plants global temperature would still rise for around 45 years. I am not sure where you got the reduction in carbon emissions figure but I feel like even if thats true its probably just exported industry. America loves to pretend to be 'green' by 'recycling plastics' even when that just translates to shipping our plastics to a third world country who then throws it in the ocean, burns it or buries it. America loves to stick up their nose at China citing how much more pollution China makes but in ratio to citizens China is over twice as efficient as America and America is literally the worst in the world. I kinda think of global warming like the national debt. Either political party cares about one but pretends the other does not matter and figures their kids will pay for it but both are totally a significant issue. I wasn't claiming that global warming wasn't real; my point is more that it seems to be slowing down: I was reading a book on climate change the month before and one of the things discussed there was the temperature increase. IIRC, one report made by some relatively important committee (don't remember who it was and unfortunately i don't have access to the book right now), showed the temperature increase (by 2100) was lower than the one previously forecast several years back, and they stated that even with an increase as high as the previous estimate, the total cost of adapting to the new global temperature was around 4% in terms of global GDP. not a very serious threat for the coming century at all. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 232] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 9th, 2020 04:27 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump a) They are indeed but nobody is talking about them. I don't know much about exactly what kibbutzim imply but i believe they enforce communal ownership and equal pay; i.e. exactly what a truly socialist society implies. "A real socialist government" Please qualify what you mean by 'socialist government' because I feel we have very different notions of 'socialism' If we're talking about a generally capitalist society that has a welfare safety net, I don't think thats real socialism because private property still exists and the concept of 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" isn't enforced, which I believe it should be in a socialist society (i suppose we can look up exactly what socialism means if need be). in any event, a capitalist society with some aspects of socialism is i believe very inefficient because it gives the government power that it doesnt really need and it also restricts capitalists from doing what they do best, e.g. produce wealth. furthermore just as plotato said, nobody can really agree on what the minimum level of sustenance the government should provide is. a socialist co-op can agree on that far, far faster than any government; they would just put the matter to a vote and see what the minimum level of security everyone should have is. b) im not really convinced by the assertion that it lacks the means to support people in the long-term. many kibbutzim are actually quite wealthy and work in the military industry. i'd also want to state that im not advocating for the dissolution of the government, btw. im advocating for the existence and formation of such organizations or micro-societies in the society we already live. e.g., market socialism rather than anarcho-socialism. part of the reason im saying this is because i think people should practice what they preach - someone who believes in an idea should go about living in a manner that is consistent with that idea: hence why i find this idea attractive; it doesnt piss off capitalists, who dont care about restrictions in a society they dont partake in (especially seeing as the people in that society consent to those restrictions), and it doesnt piss off socialists, who can live in a socialist society that actually works. people can roll back legislation in a government and it takes time for everyone to even agree on what the government should provide: it takes time for the population to reach a consensus, it takes time for the different branches of government to implement it, it takes time to allocate enough money for it, etc... and on top of it some dude can get elected and rollback all of it. i think companies, especially the ones that survive the first ~10-20 uears (i just gave you a number out of my ass) are more stable than the government, though. people can always join or found a new co-op if the one they are in goes bankrupt, too. I'm quoting this post but I'm also in part replying to the prior posts, as well. I have a few things to say about this. You're right. Actually founding and developing coops is a much more sustainable and ethical way to bring about a democratic socialist society. I don't think this approach gets enough attention given its efficacy. That said, the real efforts people have made to build coops shouldn't be understated. Here in the UK there's a huge co-operative (literally called "the co-operative group"). They have a huge chain of cornerstores, and almost every native would know them (but probably wouldn't know that they're actually a co-op). It's not perfect, but the board members are elected by the employees, and they tend to be meaningfully more ethical than other large-scale companies. There's also the Mondragon Corporation in Spain - a conglomerate of co-ops. From what I understand, the workers have even more power than than in the co-operative group. Workers will hire and fire managers depending on their effectiveness (a literal role-reversal) and the pay ratio between the highest and lowest earner ranges from 8:1 and 3:1 depending on the co-op (contrast that with the 350:1 for normal companies, or whatever the exact ratio is). I think a lot of people simply don't know about / pay much attention to co-ops in general. This is partially the fault of the left. We tend to get drawn to / fixate on more divisive ideas and strategies. I don't think reparations is an absurd idea for example, but noone would deny that it's a divisive and unpopular position that is not going to happen in any feasible capacity any time soon. We also tend to be impatient and drawn to going through the central government as a primary means to change society. (Though I certainly view this as necessary in some cases like climate change) However, there's also a resistance towards talking about co-ops amongst "the establishment". We were never told about the British co-operative party in school, yet we were told about the BNP and UKIP, which have far less seats in UK parliament. We were never told about the history of co-operative movements in my own country - we were never told that the coop we bought chocolate from on the way home is, indeed, a coop lol. And there was never any discussion about Corbyn's proposals to invest in the growth of coops in the UK in the media while he was the Labour leader - Rather than criticizing the idea or even slandering it, discussion on it was simply omitted. I only first heard about co-ops in university, when I happened upon an MIT professor emeritus in economics (Richard Wolff) giving a talk about co-ops to google. The British syllabus effectively omits the history of our empire, too. We literally skipped from the English Civil War to WW1, and were effectively given the impression that the empire was a well-intentioned force fighting the spread of autocratic regimes, but that's another matter lol. Using material from "anti-capitalist" groups, irrespective of whether the material is even related to capitalism, was recently banned in the UK. That said, they also banned usage of material from groups that failed to condemn "illegal activity", which technically allows them to forbid any material from groups that have failed to condemn the suffragettes for example lol. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/27/uk-schools-told-not-to-use-anti-capitalist-material-in-teaching -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 233] Auteur : yzb25 Date : October 9th, 2020 04:53 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump I'm quoting this post but I'm also in part replying to the prior posts, as well. I have a few things to say about this. You're right. Actually founding and developing coops is a much more sustainable and ethical way to bring about a democratic socialist society. I don't think this approach gets enough attention given its efficacy. That said, the real efforts people have made to build coops shouldn't be understated. Here in the UK there's a huge co-operative (literally called "the co-operative group"). They have a huge chain of cornerstores, and almost every native would know them (but probably wouldn't know that they're actually a co-op). It's not perfect, but the board members are elected by the employees, and they tend to be meaningfully more ethical than other large-scale companies. There's also the Mondragon Corporation in Spain - a conglomerate of co-ops. From what I understand, the workers have even more power than than in the co-operative group. Workers will hire and fire managers depending on their effectiveness (a literal role-reversal) and the pay ratio between the highest and lowest earner ranges from 8:1 and 3:1 depending on the co-op (contrast that with the 350:1 for normal companies, or whatever the exact ratio is). I think a lot of people simply don't know about / pay much attention to co-ops in general. This is partially the fault of the left. We tend to get drawn to / fixate on more divisive ideas and strategies. I don't think reparations is an absurd idea for example, but noone would deny that it's a divisive and unpopular position that is not going to happen in any feasible capacity any time soon. We also tend to be impatient and drawn to going through the central government as a primary means to change society. (Though I certainly view this as necessary in some cases like climate change) However, there's also a resistance towards talking about co-ops amongst "the establishment". We were never told about the British co-operative party in school, yet we were told about the BNP and UKIP, which have far less seats in UK parliament. We were never told about the history of co-operative movements in my own country - we were never told that the coop we bought chocolate from on the way home is, indeed, a coop lol. And there was never any discussion about Corbyn's proposals to invest in the growth of coops in the UK in the media while he was the Labour leader - Rather than criticizing the idea or even slandering it, discussion on it was simply omitted. I only first heard about co-ops in university, when I happened upon an MIT professor emeritus in economics (Richard Wolff) giving a talk about co-ops to google. The British syllabus effectively omits the history of our empire, too. We literally skipped from the English Civil War to WW1, and were effectively given the impression that the empire was a well-intentioned force fighting the spread of autocratic regimes, but that's another matter lol. Using material from "anti-capitalist" groups, irrespective of whether the material is even related to capitalism, was recently banned in the UK. That said, they also banned usage of material from groups that failed to condemn "illegal activity", which technically allows them to forbid any material from groups that have failed to condemn the suffragettes for example lol. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/sep/27/uk-schools-told-not-to-use-anti-capitalist-material-in-teaching The last couple paragraphs of this post were very UK-centric in hindsight. But given that we're all experts on US politics, I'm sure we could extrapolate what I said to the US regardless ^^. All parts of the socialist movement in the US have been deeply scarred by Mccarthyism, afaik. And the big-boy democratic socialist Bernie Sanders... isn't really a democratic socialist. All his policies are social democratic. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 234] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 10th, 2020 05:22 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump The carbon footprint of solar panels and whole home batteries are much larger than burning fossil fuels to generate energy but its presented as a 'green solution.' Source on this? The only sources I can find state that solar energy has a very low carbon footprint. I can fault the Democrats for historically being against nuclear energy, since I think nuclear power is great. This is a stance that they've changed in their 2020 platform, however, and now they fully endorse nuclear energy. Don't particularly care about the political aspects of climate change, but are you aware that carbon emissions and the rate at which temperate is increasing have both been going down for the past 20 years in post-industrialized countries? carbon emissions are down 20% in the US, if I'm not mistaken. The reason that carbon emissions have been going down in post-industrialized countries is because of the transition to less polluting methods of energy generation. Source: https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-why-us-carbon-emissions-have-fallen-14-since-2005 If your argument is that we should stop trying to be so environmentally conscious because emissions are down, then... well.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 235] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 11th, 2020 01:23 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Can we make a deal? Highly debatable and contested positions need a source. Stuff like "solar energy has a much higher carbot footprint than fossil fuels"... gotta agree with 100 % of what oops just said here lol, saying otherwise makes no sense unless you can actually prove that the global consensus is wrong. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 236] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 11th, 2020 03:18 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Requiring that people post evidence to back their claims up is suppressing their free speech. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 237] Auteur : Firebringer Date : October 11th, 2020 03:41 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump yeah, i am against compelled/forced speech. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 238] Auteur : rumox Date : October 11th, 2020 03:50 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump We need a SC2Mafia CringeCheck™© -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 239] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 11th, 2020 05:00 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump We need a SC2Mafia CringeCheck™© Refuting someone else's points with objective sources and facts is suppressing their free speech. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 240] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 11th, 2020 11:39 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump FailFish -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 241] Auteur : Firebringer Date : October 11th, 2020 12:17 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Refuting someone else's points with objective sources and facts is suppressing their free speech. no that is allowed -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 242] Auteur : Helz Date : October 16th, 2020 08:28 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump The carbon footprint of solar panels and whole home batteries are much larger than burning fossil fuels to generate energy but its presented as a 'green solution.' Source on this? The only sources I can find state that solar energy has a very low carbon footprint. That was something my professor covered in my college course "Green building." A big part of his focus was helping students to understand that the majority of 'green' solutions pushed are not actually very green at all and to identify which solutions actually had a positive impact on the environment. I am not sure where he got that figure but he hammered pretty hard on 'basic' solar energy and recycled metal studs. He did mention some new tower design that used mirrors to basically focus solar energy into a laser as being promising specifically because it cut out solar panels. I just spent some time poking around looking for the thing he covered but I couldn't find it. He was also excited about wind energy that was attached to blimps which could change their altitude to catch the wind and tidal energy. Although because tidal energy used hydraulics it has a positive carbon footprint but a very very negative economic one. Anything hydraulic is very costly.. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 243] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 16th, 2020 08:59 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Source on this? The only sources I can find state that solar energy has a very low carbon footprint. I can fault the Democrats for historically being against nuclear energy, since I think nuclear power is great. This is a stance that they've changed in their 2020 platform, however, and now they fully endorse nuclear energy. The reason that carbon emissions have been going down in post-industrialized countries is because of the transition to less polluting methods of energy generation. Source: https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-why-us-carbon-emissions-have-fallen-14-since-2005 If your argument is that we should stop trying to be so environmentally conscious because emissions are down, then... well.... depends what you mean by less polluting methods. i do agree that the more efficient energy collection mechanisms played a (large) role in it, but probably not in the way you're saying. coal itself has gotten much, much cleaner in the last ~50 years or so, to give you an example. the transition to natural gas also helped considerably because natural gas does not pollute as much coal (even clean coal is 'dirtier' than natural gas) theres also the idea that energy usage has become more efficient simply because technologies become more efficient as time passes by. you wont generate as much sulphur in a chemical plant today as you would've in 1960. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 244] Auteur : Helz Date : October 17th, 2020 03:08 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I would like to point out, though, that you notably didn't provide a stance of your own or how that stance would be accomplished (or maybe you did and I glossed over it). Could you, more concretely, talk about that? I can't say I have a structured plan for accomplishing anything. I feel like anything I could think up to say "This is how I plan to change national politics" would be some delusion of grandeur. Passively I would like to push to help people understand some of the subtle differences that are very important. As long as people do not see why the pushed changes are cosmetic and do not address the underlying problem they will just focus on 'someone is pushing something to fix a problem I care about' and there can be no real change. I believe ideas are contagious and spreading them can have a positive impact on a large scale. I would like to see actual capitalism. Not the bullshit oligopoly created by laws that create barriers to entry in markets. Opening markets allows for competition which benefits the consumer and is not a complicated thing to accomplished. It would only require the elimination of laws that prevent competition. I would like to see reduction in the cost of healthcare as opposed to spreading the cost of it. Regardless of if thats accomplished through going socialized, or tethering profits to price ceilings; but I feel insurance is not the answer and is actually what has allowed costs to get so high in the first place (as well as enable the healthcare industry to avoid taxes through uncollected fees from in-network insurance.) I could ramble on quite a bit on exactly how the interaction of insurance does this and allows justification of increased pricing every year if you are ever interested. I would like to see a flat bottom line tax rate thrown on all publicly traded companies. Currently companies like Apple and Google make crazy money but do not contribute to society because the new iphones 'patent' will be held by some offshore tax haven company that Apple will pay for each phone sold. This allows them to generate wealth while incurring cost to show lower profits which they can then turn around and bill back to that company to recover the money overseas. John Oliver had a nice piece covering some of the business structures and locations this is accomplished in. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKjk0ECXjiQ) I would like to see legislation pushed to eliminate the grey line of 'Tax avoidance' on the large scale to offset the building financial deficit America carries every year. I would like to see the processes of gun control enforced. This is the next gun I am going to buy: https://kalashnikov-usa.com/product/komrad-12ga-firearm/. I do not think it should be legal. There are laws saying the barrel of a shotgun has to be a certain length and other standards for gun control but this got released as a "12 gauge pistol with a folding brace" to avoid adhering to those laws. Thats as absurd as the bump stock was to circumvent full auto requirements. I am not at all for eliminating fire arms and I dont think that works. Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in America and they are not doing very well if you care to look (https://heyjackass.com/); As of right now I see 3411 people shot this year and 635 homicides. Guncontrol from the stance of prohibition does not work because criminals don't follow laws but I do believe gun control needs to be reworked given that I am about to buy a "12 gauge pistol" thats blatantly obviously a shotgun. Hell, I could even pick up some 'engineered oil filters' with a thread crossover that are purpose designed to be a suppressor. I can't say I have any understanding of exactly how to go about accomplishing that outside of saying its just about closing loopholes. I would like to see all drugs legalized. In my mind the war on drugs has totally failed. I can go to a city where I don't know anyone and score just about any drug I want. May as well tax it instead of allowing for a black market of organized crime to develop that funds the cartels while costing tax payers an insane amount of money to keep people in cushy 1st world jails. This wouldn't be hard, Many other countries have done it and many states are doing it slowly. I would like to see vote reform in the actions of the elimination of the electoral college and provinces that are taxed to be given voting power. Also changing the actual vote system to a different format (I think it was called First past the post if I remember right? Havent looked at the structures in a year or three) I would like to see corporate lobbying ended altogether. Its basically legal bribery anyways. I would like to see the process of passing laws changed so that a bill cant have erroneous bullshit piggybacked on. It results in congress sneaking on favor crap to 'buy' other congressmens votes to get a bill through. I would also like to see it made a crime to refuse to pass the federal budget as a way to force something to be included. That in my mind is akin to holding millions of peoples financial security hostage and calling it a negotiation. If things do not have the appeal to be pushed through democratically they should not be pushed through at all. I would like to see a substantial power shift from the fed to the state. California has very different belief systems than Texas and it makes no sense to govern them the same. Giving local government greater power directly translates to citizens being given more control over how they are governed. It also has the added benefit of forcing financial competence if states are individually accountable. This would be very messy requiring to disentangle a ton of federal regulation while giving states time to put their own law in its place but would be a very positive change imo. Toxic arguments such as "Abortion" would no longer be something even mentioned in federal elections and states could enforce the will of their populations. I would like to see immigration opened and Visa programs severely altered. If we need more laborers in X field we should accept them as citizens instead of creating a revolving door of "You can come work in America and pay taxes but you can not be a citizen." I strongly dislike how its currently being manipulated to destroy wages and the current requirements are pretty insane. A friend of mine quizzed me on some of the questions asked to be a citizen and I had no clue even though I have lived in America the majority of my life. I would also like to see the federal budget locked to not exceed the governments income. We live like 16 year old girls with daddys credit card running up debt on whatever passion project strikes us at the moment which is a really incompetent way of running a government and is not sustainable. Deficits could simply be taken in ratio across the board for all spending. I would like to see an end to "arms grants" as an international policy. America 'supports' nations by basically giving them a huge fund that can be used to purchase guns from american companies. This does little to support global stability while putting a lot of money into the gun industry. I would also like to eliminated a number of positions from being politically appointed. It makes sense for a president to choose who he works with to some degree but the idea of having an individual in charge of taxpayers assets, and who makes decisions on their behalf but was not elected is bad. I could probably just keep rambling on the subject but I doubt anyone wants to read what I already wrote there about my views or how they could be put into play. If theres something specific you would like to hear about or if I missed what you were asking let me know. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 245] Auteur : Helz Date : October 17th, 2020 03:29 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Don't particularly care about the political aspects of climate change, but are you aware that carbon emissions and the rate at which temperate is increasing have both been going down for the past 20 years in post-industrialized countries? carbon emissions are down 20% in the US, if I'm not mistaken. The reason that carbon emissions have been going down in post-industrialized countries is because of the transition to less polluting methods of energy generation. Source: https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-why-us-carbon-emissions-have-fallen-14-since-2005 I would point out that post industrialized nations can only exist so long as industrialized nations do. They do not need the dirty machines and factory's required to produce capital goods or harvest the raw goods that make them up. Them reducing their personal carbon footprint in no way reflects a global reduction in the carbon footprint. I would equate it to 1st world nations 'recycling' by passing off their plastics to 3rd world nations because its cheaper than actually recycling; and pointing to less plastic in 'their' landfills as evidence that they are helping the environment. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 246] Auteur : oops_ur_dead Date : October 17th, 2020 03:41 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump That was something my professor covered in my college course "Green building." A big part of his focus was helping students to understand that the majority of 'green' solutions pushed are not actually very green at all and to identify which solutions actually had a positive impact on the environment. I am not sure where he got that figure but he hammered pretty hard on 'basic' solar energy and recycled metal studs. He did mention some new tower design that used mirrors to basically focus solar energy into a laser as being promising specifically because it cut out solar panels. I just spent some time poking around looking for the thing he covered but I couldn't find it. He was also excited about wind energy that was attached to blimps which could change their altitude to catch the wind and tidal energy. Although because tidal energy used hydraulics it has a positive carbon footprint but a very very negative economic one. Anything hydraulic is very costly.. I get you, and I agree that green energy isn't a bandaid fix for overconsumption which is the vast majority of the issue leading to global warming. I remember reading an analysis somewhere that even if we go to full 100% green energy and everyone drives electric cars and shit we're still fucked because the amount of food and commodity production we need for our population is high enough alone to fuck us over. But I still don't buy your statement that solar energy is more CO2 releasing than fossil fuels. I can't find a single source that backs that statement up. I do agree with the tidal energy though, from what I've seen it isn't feasible. depends what you mean by less polluting methods. i do agree that the more efficient energy collection mechanisms played a (large) role in it, but probably not in the way you're saying. coal itself has gotten much, much cleaner in the last ~50 years or so, to give you an example. the transition to natural gas also helped considerably because natural gas does not pollute as much coal (even clean coal is 'dirtier' than natural gas) theres also the idea that energy usage has become more efficient simply because technologies become more efficient as time passes by. you wont generate as much sulphur in a chemical plant today as you would've in 1960. I mean you can actually read the article I linked and find out what I mean by less polluting methods. I'm not gonna summarize it for you, because you can read it and I think you glossed over some of the points yourself. I'm wondering what your conclusion from pointing this out is meant to be. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 247] Auteur : Helz Date : October 18th, 2020 03:44 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I get you, and I agree that green energy isn't a bandaid fix for overconsumption which is the vast majority of the issue leading to global warming. I remember reading an analysis somewhere that even if we go to full 100% green energy and everyone drives electric cars and shit we're still fucked because the amount of food and commodity production we need for our population is high enough alone to fuck us over. But I still don't buy your statement that solar energy is more CO2 releasing than fossil fuels. I can't find a single source that backs that statement up. I do agree with the tidal energy though, from what I've seen it isn't feasible. The way he explained it was something like this: Its not the energy production thats creating a carbon footprint. Its creating the capitol goods that produce and store the energy. Think about how much CO2 was produced to run heavy equipment to mine the raw materials, then to transport them and modify them into usable goods. Then how much more to produce the solar panels and battery's. The reason they are not viable is their life-span. Even if you ignore factors of weather that can damage the panels they will last 30 years at the high end with depreciating energy gathering as that time goes on (even with maintenance.) Batteries are a much larger issue with a whole home battery system lasting 15 years on the high end. So 'if' you are in a perfect environment and buy on the high end of the market 'and' your the odd homeowner who actually preforms home maintenance you will go through 2 sets of batteries and a full set of solar panels every 30 years. Then all that goes to waste and you buy an entire new system. So his argument was ^All that < The clean versions of fossil fuel energy generation. If I come in touch with him again I will ask him where he got that info because I am now curious as to exactly how that was calculated within the scope I mentioned. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 248] Auteur : DJarJar Date : October 18th, 2020 08:28 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump The way he explained it was something like this: Its not the energy production thats creating a carbon footprint. Its creating the capitol goods that produce and store the energy. Think about how much CO2 was produced to run heavy equipment to mine the raw materials, then to transport them and modify them into usable goods. Then how much more to produce the solar panels and battery's. The reason they are not viable is their life-span. Even if you ignore factors of weather that can damage the panels they will last 30 years at the high end with depreciating energy gathering as that time goes on (even with maintenance.) Batteries are a much larger issue with a whole home battery system lasting 15 years on the high end. So 'if' you are in a perfect environment and buy on the high end of the market 'and' your the odd homeowner who actually preforms home maintenance you will go through 2 sets of batteries and a full set of solar panels every 30 years. Then all that goes to waste and you buy an entire new system. So his argument was ^All that < The clean versions of fossil fuel energy generation. If I come in touch with him again I will ask him where he got that info because I am now curious as to exactly how that was calculated within the scope I mentioned. All of that makes sense but we'd need some data to say if it's actually as bad or worse than comparable fossil fuel generation. Recycling has similar problems (the factories let off a ton of nasty chemicals and a lot of the materials just get dumped into the trash anyway due to impurities. Wouldn't it be better to have people stop using disposable plastic bottles rather than make them feel like it's okay because they can just throw it in a recycling bin?), but studies have still shown that the net effect is much less than if we did not recycle. Plus, while home-use solar equipment just gets trashed now, if the business gets large enough then we can expect that the materials begin to be recycled and regulated, especially with the large solar farm companies that are starting to pop up all over. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 249] Auteur : Bruno Date : October 21st, 2020 03:21 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump lmfao -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 250] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : October 21st, 2020 07:55 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump See what they've done to my baby ;( This was originally a thread about fascism and now we're talking about eolian energy... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 251] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 21st, 2020 08:17 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump HEIL TRUMPF -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 252] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 22nd, 2020 07:41 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Unironically though, Trump is no fascist :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 253] Auteur : Oberon Date : October 22nd, 2020 07:55 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump On climate change: theres a lot of fear mongering about how climate change is going to kill us all (in like ~20-30 years. I’m not actually joking). Kids these days are being told they will die in the next few decades. This kind of alarmism is disgusting and needs to stop because its not even correct. The estimated costs of adapting to the new temperature by 2100 are at around 4% of the global GDP. Not only will we survive, we’ll even thrive. Also since someone mentioned wildfires being caused by climate change? There is actually virtually no relationship between those two. The best predictor of wildfires is... take a guess... its the presence of human settlements! The denser and the more populated the area, the more wildfires there will be. Who woulda thunk :P Also, a point that always gets brought up in favour of humans causing (or being the main cause of) climate change is the temperature history of the last two hundred (200) years, the point usually being that it started increasing during the Industrial Revolution. And, like, really? That’s such a shit point in my estimation - does anyone ACTUALLY think we were burning enough coal and shit to WARM UP the planet with 1850s technology? I find the two completely unrelated. Remember that we’d just been through the Little Ice Age, its not a stretch to assume that a period of warmer temperatures is gonna follow that :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 254] Auteur : SuperJack Date : October 22nd, 2020 10:07 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump maga2020 = ******** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 255] Auteur : Helz Date : November 9th, 2020 11:31 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump All of that makes sense but we'd need some data to say if it's actually as bad or worse than comparable fossil fuel generation. Recycling has similar problems (the factories let off a ton of nasty chemicals and a lot of the materials just get dumped into the trash anyway due to impurities. Wouldn't it be better to have people stop using disposable plastic bottles rather than make them feel like it's okay because they can just throw it in a recycling bin?), but studies have still shown that the net effect is much less than if we did not recycle. Plus, while home-use solar equipment just gets trashed now, if the business gets large enough then we can expect that the materials begin to be recycled and regulated, especially with the large solar farm companies that are starting to pop up all over. This is a very good point. I also just realized that its not appropriate to compare municipality solar generation with that of residential at all simply because the energy grid does not store the energy it creates in 'batteries' as we think of them. They do crazy stuff like filling a lake on a mountain using the excess energy so that they can recover that energy through gravity when its needed. Anyways, I will reach out to that professor at some point to try to get some real data on the solar bit. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 256] Auteur : rumox Date : November 10th, 2020 01:48 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Not only was Australia's bushfires exacerbated by the effects of climate change, it was predominantly started by the climate itself too (lightning). Not to mention our fire prevention measures as a country that expects these kind of fires every single year were straining, leaving majority of relief efforts to be picked up by VOLUNTEER firefighters local and abroad. Look at how stressed this volunteer firefighter (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wpV3lHK90o) is. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 257] Auteur : Helz Date : November 10th, 2020 06:14 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Not only was Australia's bushfires exacerbated by the effects of climate change, it was predominantly started by the climate itself too (lightning). Not to mention our fire prevention measures as a country that expects these kind of fires every single year were straining, leaving majority of relief efforts to be picked up by VOLUNTEER firefighters local and abroad. Look at how stressed this volunteer firefighter (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wpV3lHK90o) is. Well sure, But you can't place all the blame on the climate. Concepts like the "Smokey the bear effect" and the fact that there are more people moving into more rural areas are substantial factors. I have a friend who works for a fire department in Austin Texas who is all pissed off that they don't let them do control burns any more. He says the fuel is building and at some point there will be a fire that can not be managed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 258] Auteur : rumox Date : November 11th, 2020 01:37 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump https://i.imgur.com/tA4EAVI.png NSW Rural Fire Service (RFS) Inspector Ben Shepherd said earlier this week lightning was predominantly responsible for the bushfire crisis. "I can confidently say the majority of the larger fires that we have been dealing with have been a result of fires coming out of remote areas as a result of dry lightning storms," he said. Our fire seasons start earlier and earlier every year as it gets increasingly hotter across the board. This temperature rise turns the country into just one giant kindle. I agree the controversy around back burning is dumb - it HAS to be done to ensure fire safety, however it's kind of irrelevant. Fires are becoming more and more common and more devastating, just because we have fire breaks in certain areas doesn't change the fact that the rate and intensity is increasing. I've personally experienced two natural disasters in the past decade that is linked to the increasing temperature - the nation wide burning at the start of the year and the state wide flooding of Queensland in 2010-11 (78% of the state was listed as a disaster zone). Are there other factors to these events other than climate change? Absolutely. Does it mitigate the status of climate change? Absolutely not. Legislating more robust fire break rules in favor of fire control is 'easy', taking on climate change itself is the real battle. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 259] Auteur : rumox Date : November 11th, 2020 01:41 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump The amount of rain that fell on Queensland that year resulted in the Indian and Pacific ocean dropping by 7 millimeters. I'm not saying this as a GloBaL WaRmING scare, more so illustrating how much water got dumped on us. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 260] Auteur : Helz Date : November 11th, 2020 03:30 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Are there other factors to these events other than climate change? Absolutely. Does it mitigate the status of climate change? Absolutely not. Legislating more robust fire break rules in favor of fire control is 'easy', taking on climate change itself is the real battle. I agree with you but its not about fire breaks. In nature forests go through cyclical forest fires which burns up the built up sticks/leaves/brush without getting hot enough to kill the old growth trees. This fertilizes the forests and eliminates the built up 'fuel.' The "Smokey the bear effect" describes how preventing forest fires just builds up fuel so when a fire does happen it burns so hot it kills everything. In a word- We flat out need forest fires to prevent harmful forest fires. But this is unacceptable to many people with our civilizations building more and more in rural areas so we try to prevent any burning. You just end up with less overall fires but when they happen they burn half the country and kill the old growth trees that could easily survive the fires that would occur naturally. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 261] Auteur : rumox Date : November 11th, 2020 04:22 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Firebreaks/controlled fires is pretty interchangeable here, if you say one the other is implied. But ya I understand controlled burns I live in rural Australia where I can see and smell these being done regularly. It still isn't enough. Read up on the fires that happened here and you will see that controlled burns did very little to contain it. The major cause is widely accepted as being climate change. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 262] Auteur : rumox Date : November 11th, 2020 04:23 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Australian_bushfire_season -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 263] Auteur : Helz Date : November 11th, 2020 09:53 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump Will do. I can only speak intelligently about the poor concepts and practices that cause issues in America. I should learn more about your area before jumping to the conclusion that its the same. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 264] Auteur : Oberon Date : February 10th, 2021 12:17 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Will do. I can only speak intelligently about the poor concepts and practices that cause issues in America. I should learn more about your area before jumping to the conclusion that its the same. Did you perchance know that the day you posted this was the 102nd anniversary of the end of WW1 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 265] Auteur : Oberon Date : February 10th, 2021 12:18 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump In any event, I fully agree with the subject of this thread. Trump is unser Führer! SIEG HEIL -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 266] Auteur : Donald J. Trump Date : February 10th, 2021 12:33 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump In any event, I fully agree with the subject of this thread. Trump is unser Führer! SIEG HEIL SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 267] Auteur : Oberon Date : February 10th, 2021 12:35 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! HALLO MEIN FÜHRER!! ICH WURDE SIE FEGELEIN ANBRINGEN!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 268] Auteur : Oberon Date : February 10th, 2021 12:37 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump FEGELEIN IST EIN VERRÄTER UND MUSS SCHEISSEN WERDEN -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 269] Auteur : Oberon Date : February 10th, 2021 03:16 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump Why is this in Circlejerk I’m super serious -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 270] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : February 10th, 2021 07:25 PM Title : Re: Führer Trump HEY, MY THREAD! What have you done to my baby :mad: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 271] Auteur : Oberon Date : February 12th, 2021 07:09 AM Title : Re: Führer Trump I made it better. The original sucks horse cock. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-