* * * SC2 Mafia Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47800 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Auteur : Mesk514 Date : November 26th, 2020 01:43 AM Title : Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Firstly, I would like to say that I am not here to seek being unbanned; however, given the history and strong opinions each of us has about each other, I find it essential to say my peace. Marshmallow Marshall has hidden behind other staff members to appear unbiased, although I already know he pretty much just said "post this" about the situation. Before he says, "oh well, Deathworlds made the post because it included other infractions," have some balls to do it yourself since your ridiculousness shouldn't be cast upon Deathworlds as well. As a member of this community for several years and a participant of FM, I find it important to host a game every few years. Since returning, I have not hosted yet played in several games; therefore, it was time to host myself. Unfortunately, in haste, I made a hosting error. However, it is important to note that Marshmallow Marshall had messaged me saying, Also, I'm not against making peace. Not saying we will or should be friends lol, but we could at least stop being in conflict at this point. Anyways, to rectify the situation, I proposed potentially applying the vest I had missed on Frinckles if he escaped the noose and was attacked. Marshmallow Marshall agreed to this, and said I shouldn't tell anyone. okay, maybe he has a chance idk if the players should be made aware of this tho because it's definetly strange for them atm, and if Frinckles actually gets to have his vest, the SK will be very much confused I explained that as the host, I specifically said I have total discretion to which he said, I mean, it's... strongly implied, but sure :p your call as host abotu how you manage that, was just suggesting Deeming it acceptable to bend the setup rules in favour of his faction to correct the error. This is what I deemed fair for all parties, as the host. It happens sometimes that host errors are made, as we are human and, well... human error. However, the error was not out of malice or hate; it was merely just an error. I have played my fair share of games where host errors are made and go uncorrected. When host errors go uncorrected or left as is, unfortunately, it may be unfair for some parties. There has never been anyone punished on this site for making a human error, as that would be deemed ridiculous because it is. In this case, Frinckles did not escape the noose and was lynched. As the host, I recognized that it would be unfair for the remaining neutral. Therefore I decided since Frinckles didn't escape the noose, the remaining flips wouldn't be shown. Again, the intention here was not malice, nor destructive, and virtually had little to no influence, but was a judgment made in the interest of fairness. Anyone within the game who had messaged me regarding this was answered with an apology and an explanation about how I was attempting to rectify the error. Not one person complained directly to me or shared their feelings about how they felt it was unfair. Erm, what are you doing with the Frinckles flip lol? I got complaints that you... didn't flip someone in a game with flips And if it may interest you, you even were reported for not following the setup earlier... You're gonna have a riot if you don't fix that Not one person rioted or said anything directly to me expressing feelings of unfair treatment. I said Lmfao I really don't care It's not a ladder game And zedus can literally shut up Lol I cant be reported for a hosting error You see, it is absolutely ridiculous to report someone for human error and should go unfounded. So I did not care who reported me about my mistake because it was an honest mistake. I cannot confirm or deny who reported you but there was more than one person who complained and ladder game or not, you're supposed to respect the setup and not intentionally morph this into a flipless without telling your players... i honestly don't care about you announcing my death, it was an honest mistake lol But literally not flipping people in a normal setup is a no-no now people cannot know if mafia still exists His view of intentionally morphing this into a flipless without telling players was wrong. While intentional, yes, but only to make it fair for the remaining players. Anyone who had asked was told the situation, and as the host, I deemed it fair to respond to anyone who asked. I felt no need to go out of my way to tell people who had messaged me "OMG YOU MADE A MISTAKE YOURE SUCH A BAD HOST YOU RUINED THE GAME" when the original error was made, as that sort of disrespect doesn't warrant my time. What are you going to do ??? Ban me from hosting another setup? Zedus can suck a dick and Oberon was going to die The others are fine as I spoke to them So it's okay So you can kindly take the "respecting the set up", and shove it up your ass :) With a game filled with personal insults and stupidity, not one person respected me as the host. So to say I must respect the setup, in a game where respect is thrown out of the window, was just... ridiculous. Clearly, he didn't like my response. However, you can not big dick me when you have no dick. I was mentioned in the moderation thread for being placed on hold. I had messaged Deathworlds to grow a pair, knowing it wasn't him who came up with this idea, and to post the ridiculous reasoning as to why I was being placed for having an on-hold infraction. I was then banned from hosting, lol. There are no rules that stipulate I must respect a moderator outside of the forums. Basically, claiming I went out of my way to ruin my own game and infringe upon other player's experience is unfounded. There was no such thing. It was a correction to an error. An error that was deemed alright to fix, as long as it benefitted his faction. This idea of punishing someone for rectifying an error goes against the system's integrity and shows the bias of one's feelings towards the host. Not only that, but allowing corrections to be made in your favour, but not others, is "a no-no." With all that being said, I have concluded that Marshmallow Marshall should take his "Therefore Mesk514 is henceforth banned from hosting games due to intentionally and avoidably not following the setup by not making players flip anymore at some point of the game. Note that although the ban is unlimited in lenght, we are not closed to appeals in the non-immediate future" and shove it up his ass :) *i am not suggesting MM is a horrible moderator/person, corrupt, all that stuff people said about me ��. I am merely stating and highlighting how in this case, he was unable to moderate without bias. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 02:01 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I was actually the one who complained about Frinckles’ role not flipping. My problem wasn’t so much the vest error as much as the message you posted when Frinckles got lynched. ‘No clue what he was’. It’s surely not that difficult to check lol... I don’t see how this can be a hosting error; it’s just laziness. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 02:02 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias As for the first quote you posted, I’ve known MM for over 2 years and I highly doubt he would say that to you unprovoked. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Auteur : Mesk514 Date : November 26th, 2020 02:08 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias As for the first quote you posted, I’ve known MM for over 2 years and I highly doubt he would say that to you unprovoked. KBYE11/10/2018 .... do you have the power ..... to maybe ...........:person_facepalming: Unban me Marshmallow Marshall11/10/2018 I can facepalm, yes I'm sorry, Dave, but I'm afraid I cannot do that. KBYE11/10/2018 Thats Mr.Dave to you Marshmallow Marshall11/10/2018 I have no punitive powers :stuck_out_tongue: KBYE11/10/2018 What about the blues... What kinda blues are those Marshmallow Marshall11/10/2018 Arrow will do it himself lol KBYE11/10/2018 Im special :heart_eyes: Marshmallow Marshall11/10/2018 Yep, throwing such a tantrum as FM head is very special... lol anyway KBYE11/10/2018 See im not a pleb, i'll still have a color Marshmallow Marshall11/10/2018 will it be black? : D jk KBYE11/10/2018 Nah Marshmallow Marshall11/10/2018 white then? KBYE11/10/2018 Yellow Im a donor Marshmallow Marshall11/10/2018 Golden* KBYE11/10/2018 Your mom:person_shrugging: Marshmallow Marshall11/10/2018 My mom isn't a color though ; P KBYE11/10/2018 Im mature okay Marshmallow Marshall11/10/2018 mhmmm :wink: but yea I cant ban/unbban so you'll have to ask someone else KBYE11/10/2018 Ayt thanks Marshmallow Marshall10/22/2020 Hi You're next on Mini S-FM Queue with Undercover You may post signups whenever you're ready KBYE11/04/2020 https://discord.gg/ARKTK2Nd Marshmallow Marshall11/04/2020 Invalid invite KBYE11/05/2020 https://discord.gg/dkJtJ5hv Also what are the tags for setting votes, I forget Marshmallow Marshall11/05/2020 number of votes needed for majority lynch here and Marshmallow Marshall11/12/2020 Are you sure you cannot close (or open) your own threads in the Ongoing FM Games subforum? You should be able to: even members with only the standard usergroup can. I just tested it. There's an "Administrative" button next to the "Vote Count" button, and when you click on it, there is "Close Thread" If you really can't do that, we'll try to fix it ~~ Also, I'm not against making peace. Not saying we will or should be friends lol, but we could at least stop being in conflict at this point. KBYE11/12/2020 Yeah, I figured it out. Took me a few minutes to find it Didn't think I could reopen in, why i never closed it And ok you tell me where I provoked him to say that -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Auteur : Mesk514 Date : November 26th, 2020 02:11 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias It’s surely not that difficult to check lol... I don’t see how this can be a hosting error; it’s just laziness. Your sheer laziness shows here. Come back to me when you've read it again and formed an educated response. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 03:00 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Oh wait I didnt realize you talked to people in the game. If thats the case then my bad lol. I feel like a ban from hosting (especially for an indefinite period), isnt justified if everyone agreed to it. Even if you hadnt the ban would’ve been a bit harsh, so maybe an infraction would’ve sufficed. Seeing as you did its kind of a moot point, but I apologize for attacking you without fully reading the entire post lololol. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Auteur : Mesk514 Date : November 26th, 2020 03:03 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Oh wait I didnt realize you talked to people in the game. If thats the case then my bad lol. I feel like a ban from hosting (especially for an indefinite period), isnt justified if everyone agreed to it. Even if you hadnt the ban would’ve been a bit harsh, so maybe an infraction would’ve sufficed. Seeing as you did its kind of a moot point, but I apologize for attacking you without fully reading the entire post lololol. I appreciate the apology. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Auteur : rumox Date : November 26th, 2020 03:29 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Seems like you found yourself in a shit situation and did your best to keep the games integrity afloat. I don't understand a host ban being the verdict for this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Auteur : SuperJack Date : November 26th, 2020 04:22 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias SuperJack in daaaaah hooouse. Love you all<3 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 26th, 2020 09:46 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias For more complete context: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/590280967504134157/781484674844327946/11111111111111111.PNG?width=864&height=602 https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/590280967504134157/781484959290359838/11111111111111111111.PNG?width=738&height=603 Before he says, "oh well, Deathworlds made the post because it included other infractions," have some balls to do it yourself since your ridiculousness shouldn't be cast upon Deathworlds as well. I mean, that's what happened anyway lol. He wasn't in the game, but I was, so we try to avoid bias as much as possible. I'd also like to point out that I posted my thing trying to make peace with you on the 12th. What you were punished for (not flipping people) happened on the 17th. This obviously has nothing to do with the judgment (especially seeing how the judgment involved the entire FM staff for all cases, as every judgment does, so there wouldn't be a vendetta or anything like that). If a vendetta like what you seem to be suggesting was to happen, I'd expect the moderator to be severely reprimanded or straight up demoted; but here, there was no unilateral decision whatsoever, and everyone was asked for their thoughts and listened to so that we would come to an agreement. ~~ Now, into the actual game matter, let's establish something: my death was an honest, human mistake, and this was not taken into account for the punishment (it wasn't in the judgment post either); the punishment is due to the switch to a flipless game, which is not a human error but an intentional and major modification of the setup. But even there, for truth's sake, a few things must be cleaned up. I said the exact opposite of "not telling the players": I literally suggested to tell them, because it hadn't been done. I even said not doing it would confuse the players. Also, giving Frinckles the autovest if he survived was not "bending the setup", it was simply keeping the setup's mechanic: - One auto vest is shared between both mafia players in the event they are attacked by the Serial Killer. You will not receive feedback should your vest be used. ~~ What resulted in a punishment: As I said up there, switching the game to flipless isn't accidental nor unavoidable and hurts the game's integrity (flips being a major part of the game). When I brought that up, the replies were "Lmfao I really don't care", "Zedus can shut up", "It's not a ladder game", and later "Zedus can suck a dick and Oberon was going to die", and "you can kindly take the respecting the setup and shove it up your ass", etc. All of this doesn't exactly strike as the words of someone who got the agreement of everyone ("Zedus can shut up"...) and who cares about game integrity and who had been striving for balance. Now, if you're pleading you had the private agreement of your players and no objections (like how hosts proceed to make a requested change mid-game), then it would mean the punishment was based on a communication mistake between staff and you; in such a case, please make a thread with evidence in the Forum Mafia Reports & Appeals (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/609-Forum-Mafia-Reports-amp-Appeals) section, because you'd have been wrongly punished. P.S. "on hold" means "waiting for judgment", sorry if that was unclear. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 26th, 2020 09:53 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias SuperJack in daaaaah hooouse. Love you all<3 This ought to be the cutest avatar on this site lol -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Auteur : Mesk514 Date : November 26th, 2020 02:16 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias "idk if the players should be made aware of this tho" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 26th, 2020 02:38 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias To clarify, none of the following actually has anything to do with the punishment. "idk if the players should be made aware of this tho" I'll grant you this line alone may be ambiguous, but it wasn't alone. The line that comes right after removes any and all forms of ambiguity: "because it's definetly strange for them atm, and if Frinckles actually gets to have his vest, the SK will be very much confused". You cannot honestly think I'm advocating for you to confuse people without telling them why :P. Right after, you even say it isn't specified anywhere when the vest is used, to which I reply "it's... strongly implied, but sure :P your call as a host about how you manage that, was just suggesting", which also implies I was going against the non-reveal, but that you had discretion there (this part of the setup being already compromised by the error, it had to be adapted, and that's where host discretion applies). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 26th, 2020 02:53 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Was a player... Mesk PMed me and apologized... I told her it was OK and that shit happens. Hosting FM is complicated shit and people make mistakes. Personally, I think MM should have been specifically excluded from the entire punishment process instead of just the public facing side considering that A) He has a bad history with Mesk, as evidenced by this thread, and B) he was the player who was mistakenly killed. If there is any real indication that deathworlds was influenced by MM in any way whatsoever as far as this punishment situation is concerned then we've got a serious moderation integrity issue. As an active member of this now very small community I'd like to hear what deathworlds has to say about this whole thing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 26th, 2020 02:54 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias To clarify, none of the following actually has anything to do with the punishment. I'll grant you this line alone may be ambiguous, but it wasn't alone. The line that comes right after removes any and all forms of ambiguity: "because it's definetly strange for them atm, and if Frinckles actually gets to have his vest, the SK will be very much confused". You cannot honestly think I'm advocating for you to confuse people without telling them why :P. Right after, you even say it isn't specified anywhere when the vest is used, to which I reply "it's... strongly implied, but sure :P your call as a host about how you manage that, was just suggesting", which also implies I was going against the non-reveal, but that you had discretion there (this part of the setup being already compromised by the error, it had to be adapted, and that's where host discretion applies). I'm honestly not sure why you even weighed in at all. I don't think that was the right call. I think you should've steered clear of the entire situation and remained as a player because there's no way you could come out of this unbiased. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Auteur : Unknown1234 Date : November 26th, 2020 03:01 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Banning someone for making a hosting error in an FM game..... I guess I forgot that punishing is the #1 priority... What does this punishment actually serve? Unless you believe it was done out of malicious intent than this is only going to hurt the community. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 26th, 2020 03:11 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I'm honestly not sure why you even weighed in at all. I don't think that was the right call. I think you should've steered clear of the entire situation and remained as a player because there's no way you could come out of this unbiased. The post you're quoting is purely about player-host discussion. As for the moderation part, I can understand your concerns; what I had to clarify myself about private exchanges was clarified, so I'll leave the rest for other staff to comment as they see fit. deathworlds AIVION And again Mesk514, if you believe to have been wrongly punished, make an appeal thread with evidence; if there was a mistake, it will be corrected. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 26th, 2020 03:15 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Banning someone for making a hosting error in an FM game..... I guess I forgot that punishing is the #1 priority... What does this punishment actually serve? Unless you believe it was done out of malicious intent than this is only going to hurt the community. This is the vibe that I'm getting. There's a ton of unspoken accusations and bullshit in this entire dialogue on both sides. MM was the player that was mistakenly allowed to be nightkilled by host. If I was MM, who apparently had a bad history with the host, I might have been understandably fucking PISSED. The question is whether or not this bled into the moderation side of things. I legit don't see a world where that didn't happen, regardless of how hard he would've tried to make sure it didn't. I honestly believe MM would have enough integrity to at least try to not take it all personally but there's no way any human being would've remained entirely impartial. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 26th, 2020 03:30 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias The post you're quoting is purely about player-host discussion. Mesk514 which dead players did you discuss the specifics of the game with after the game got borked? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : November 26th, 2020 03:51 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias This is some american justice system shit right here. If we're going to ban people for making host errors I should be, like, fucking permabanned from ever playing FM again. Mesk made a judgement call, as she is allowed to do as host. You disagreed with that judgement call as a player? That's fine. But it's impossible for you to be objective in a ruling about it. Let's not punish people for making an honest error here. From an outside perspective it absolutely looks like you're punishing Mesk because of the fact that she told you go to stick your ruling up your ass. Can we also acknowledge the fact that MM shared details of an anonymous report with the person who was reported? What good could come of telling Mesk that someone definitely not zedus reported her? EDIT: And yes, this was MM's ruling. Last edited by Marshmallow Marshall; November 24th, 2020 at 04:32 AM. Reason: Added the Mesk judgement. EDIT 2: Off the top of my head here's a list of players that should be banned following the decision to ban mesk for a host error. Me (twice? thrice?) Martin Oberon AIVION (three times from separate errors in ?krc, or one time if you count the game as a single instance) Mike (for revealing host information to me before the conclusion of the game) If you want to ban players for making errors then you should've been banned during your first game when you posted a thread asking how to access your scum night chat. Anyone else want to fess up? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 03:55 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Honestly I reread this again and I legit dont see anything bad with what Mesk did. MM punished Mesk for not revealing the flips but Mesk says she did it in the interest of restoring a sort of balance to the game after the Mafia got screwed over by MM’s death. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me ~~ I think this is just a case of miscommunication? I also assumed that it was pure laziness on Mesk’s part at first (I also said as much here), so its not unlikely that staff did as well. I am unbiased whereas MM is, so... I do still think a ban would’ve been excessive even if the intent was malicious. Maybe a severe warning? Theres only like, what, 15 people on this website and theres a few people who wouldnt want Mesk banned (like Helz), so why ban? Just issue a warning and move on. Its not PTB levels of aggression that would genuinely require intervention. And honestly I have no idea why PTB hasnt been banned yet. That fucker is the most toxic piece of shit I’ve ever come across online. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 04:05 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I think Staff are a little too quick to ban/infract people who dont deserve it... Frog is another example that comes to mind that I regret because I participated in it myself. Frog has a 9 point infraction for an indefinite period that is lifted only if he plays, I think 3 games, without ragequitting. I suggested that because I felt like that was the best deal I was going to get for Frog since everyone else wanted him banned. Just saying, staff should be more forgiving... only deal with shit that players cant deal with. Given that the people who talked to Mesk were okay with zero flips in this game, staff didnt need to intervene. One other thing I strongly disagree with (I actually brought it up when I was Moderator, but nobody agreed with me), is Efe being on the graylist. Efe made games fun even if chaotic even if he could be quite frustrating at times. The deeper issue is that staff don’t really seem capable of dealing with toxicity where it occurs (e.g. PTB - like I said PTB is still fucking unbanned, whereas Frog and Efe are practically banned from playing games), and instead only infract people who ‘wont fight back. I dont think this is necessarily out of malice but more likely out of cowardice. Its also why I decided to yeet my account. I fucked up but absolutely nobody on FM staff had my back. I’m actually glad I’m no longer staff lol. That was the most stressful period of this entire website for me. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Auteur : Auwt Date : November 26th, 2020 04:32 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias FWIW I don't want to take any side, but both parties have some good and bad points from what I'm understanding. We are certainly not on a forum to bother ourselves, more that sharing good time with each other. The related FM was not a ranked one, still I get it can be frustrating but we're all human in here; And I guess everyone can make mistake (and i know what I'm talking about lol). I believe we could try to find a common ground instead of running for punishment or attacks on the "inability to moderate without bias", no ? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 04:43 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I disagree with what yiu said. There are definitely issues with moderation on this website, it’s why there’s only 15 people here at any given time =) Not necessarily bias, but more likely cowardice, like I said. Theres also issues with people abusing Red privs to do shit like IP check people/looking up people’s emails (I was a victim of the latter), and just in general all-around admin abuse. There are honestly many issues with admin overreach on this site and its not limited to the FM staff. If anyone wants to discuss further I can make a separate thread/talk via PMs about it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Auteur : yzb25 Date : November 26th, 2020 04:56 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I disagree with what yiu said. There are definitely issues with moderation on this website, it’s why there’s only 15 people here at any given time =) Not necessarily bias, but more likely cowardice, like I said. Theres also issues with people abusing Red privs to do shit like IP check people/looking up people’s emails (I was a victim of the latter), and just in general all-around admin abuse. There are honestly many issues with admin overreach on this site and its not limited to the FM staff. If anyone wants to discuss further I can make a separate thread/talk via PMs about it. You may have legitimate concerns, but let's try not to make this thread a "let's discuss every issue the mods have ever had" thread. It's unfair on the mods, and it's also more productive to just focus on getting to the bottom of whether mesk received a fair ruling. I recognise you're already angling for that in this post anyway, I'm just reiterating. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Auteur : yzb25 Date : November 26th, 2020 05:01 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Anyway, I also agree that it seems like the banning is v harsh overreach caused partially by mesk's abrasive attitude and possibly past issues clouding judgement. FM team is small, overworked and they also all seem to be friends. It's not surprising if they fuck up sometimes -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 05:06 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias You may have legitimate concerns, but let's try not to make this thread a "let's discuss every issue the mods have ever had" thread. It's unfair on the mods, and it's also more productive to just focus on getting to the bottom of whether mesk received a fair ruling. I recognise you're already angling for that in this post anyway, I'm just reiterating. You’re right. I won’t bring it up here again. I’m pretty salty about what happened to me, and I guess it shows xD -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 05:10 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I do agree this seems like a mistake on (I think) MM’s part; I don’t think MM would try to ban people just because he didn’t like them, I’ve known him for quite a while and I doubt he would do that. Its more likely an issue of miscommunication, since, like I said, I also initially attributed Mesk’s decision not to reveal flips to malice. I don’t think MM was trying to do anything ‘wrong’ in this context but I do feel like a mixture of miscommunication and bias contributed to this infraction. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 05:54 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Anyway, I also agree that it seems like the banning is v harsh overreach caused partially by mesk's abrasive attitude and possibly past issues clouding judgement. FM team is small, overworked and they also all seem to be friends. It's not surprising if they fuck up sometimes For sure. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Auteur : yzb25 Date : November 26th, 2020 06:01 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias For sure. Yeah. If you read mesk's msgs in the discord it can easily be interpreted as callously dismissing the game and goading MM to ban her. And I suspect MM at least partially took it that way. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 06:03 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Yeah. If you read mesk's msgs in the discord it can easily be interpreted as callously dismissing the game and goading MM to ban her. And I suspect MM at least partially took it that way. That's how I interpreted them and I was in the game ^^ I actually was the one who asked MM to look into the flips. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Auteur : deathworlds Date : November 26th, 2020 06:10 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I'm saying the following as a prominent host first, FM staff second. I am of the belief that there's a etiquette to hosting, a sort of unspoken code of hosts, to try and facilitate an enjoyable experience to the players. Hosting in my eyes is supposed to be a selfless act, after all, you're forgoing the opportunity to play something you designed, and putting in a lot of work to try and make all the magic behind the scenes work. Hosting S-FM Insanity and Insanity 2.0 were some of the hardest things I've done for this site, there is a lot of things to keep track of, much more so than what is required for a player, hell as a player you're more or less only obligated to read and post every now and then. Hosting is hard. From the things that were presented to me, both through my reading of the game, and conversations presented to me outside of the game, I came to the conclusion that Mesk betrayed that ethos. As a host, one should make sure that all actions the host does is in line with the setup / what is presented to the players. There is a reason why for hidden setups, the authors are required to present a full setup to FM-Staff, as I did for S-FM ???? (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/40778-S-FM-Gamethread) more than three years ago. It's to ensure that it's not going to be a shitshow of a game for the players, and that the setup creator isn't just making stuff up as they go along. If any changes to the setup were made by Mesk, she should have been upfront about them, instead she wasn't and didn't particularly care about the "mistakes", at least as far as I was aware. That's the primary reason why I agreed that some form of punishment was necessary. Should Mesk believe there is anything wrong with our judgement, she is more than welcome to make an appeal. I hold no ill will towards her, and attempt to be as partial as possible when it comes to my judgements. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 06:11 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias This is already an appeal, deathworlds. Mesk may not have called it as such but it has all the attributes of an appeal. It's an explanation of why Mesk feels she doesn't deserve the ban. That's an appeal. also, Mesk did not violate that ethos: 1. Mesk accidentally disabled the Mafia's bulletproof vest and flipped MM anyways. This is something everyone is capable of doing and is a simple mistake. Mesk even PM'd me (after I died) to apologize for MM's flip and even addressed the flip post-game and apologized for it. 2. Since the Mafia were at a severe disadvantage that they did not expect, Mesk decided not to reveal the other two flips so as to give the Mafia an advantage that they lost and bring back some form of balance to the setup. Also, you said that 'Mesk broke that ethos' but then your later comments have nothing to do with something unethical; fucking up night actions/flips/whatever isn't necessarily unethical. I believe Mesk gave a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why she decided not to flip. We even have one person here who confirmed they OK'd Mesk's decision not to reveal flips. "If any changes were made to setup" Except MM literally advised her NOT to reveal the hosting error. If she can't reveal the hosting error how can she reveal the decision to hide flips? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Auteur : deathworlds Date : November 26th, 2020 06:14 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias This is already an appeal................. No, appeals are done through the proper channels (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/609-Forum-Mafia-Reports-amp-Appeals) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 06:35 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Wait I missed this when I initially received this (from Mesk) when I died: At this point I'm just trying to keep it running while fair. After all, I hosted it for fun! so pretty much exactly what Mesk said she did. kept it fair by not revealing flips. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : November 26th, 2020 06:58 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Wait I missed this when I initially received this (from Mesk) when I died: At this point I'm just trying to keep it running while fair. After all, I hosted it for fun! so pretty much exactly what Mesk said she did. kept it fair by not revealing flips. At this point you've done everything except use quote tags to quote something. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Auteur : Unknown1234 Date : November 26th, 2020 07:26 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Once again, there is NO reason why a ban has to be the default decision made when an error happens. Mesk made a judgement call on how to balance it after the mistake, and I 100% understand where she's coming from in her decision to hide the flips because mafia would have been in a even worse situation than they were without not having the vest being used. I will state this again because it's being largely ignored, but if you don't think that she did it purposefully, there's literally no reason to ban her. All you're doing is discouraging people from hosting in the future. Mistakes happen, and trying to fix a mistake in a game shouldn't be getting her banned. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Auteur : Joe Biden Date : November 26th, 2020 07:32 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I am president elect Joe Biden and I do not approve this ban. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Auteur : Mesk514 Date : November 26th, 2020 07:38 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I'm going to start with this, as it is pretty much the last time I want to say anything on this topic. While this carries all the elements of an appeal, it is not an appeal, which is why it's in the general discussion section. It is clear Marshmallow Marshall didn't appreciate me telling him to shove his shit where it belongs. Appeals are done privately and usually require the offender to have some sort of remorse accompanied by an apology. While I sincerely feel bad, the game was affected by the error, I stand by my judgement to not flip the remaining players. The decision to not reveal the last remaining roles was based on the fact that Zedus had reported me for not following the setup, and I acknowledge the error did impact the fairness for his faction. So no, I don't feel the need to apologize to any moderator and ask for forgiveness. I also don't host; that's really the most hilarious part of this all. I requested to be put in the queue months earlier and had to push it back multiple times due to my schedule. MM offered to remove me from the queue and said I could be put back on when I had a little more time, but by the time it was my turn again, I had some time to spare. If anyone would think that I would waste my time hosting a game to go out of my to ruin it when I could have signed for Auwt's game, that looks a hell of a lot more fun than mine was, would be beyond wrong. I'm not going to rebuttal the discussion MM, and I had over the original way to rectify the situation as that was clearly some sort of miscommunication. I did take it as if we were both in agreement to not publicly share the decision to apply the vest to the second mafioso if attacked. However, that really has very little to do with anything. "Zedus can literally shut up" and, "Zedus can suck a dick" stems from the fact that he reported me for a genuine hosting error. An error I went out of my way to attempt to rectify as I did agree that this error affected his faction. So any report from him is invalid, and therefore.... yeah, he can suck my dick. This attempt to salvage what was left did not warrant an explanation to MM, nor any dead player. It was between myself and the remaining players. "If any changes to the setup were made by Mesk, she should have been upfront about them, instead she wasn't and didn't particularly care about the "mistakes", at least as far as I was aware. That's the primary reason why I agreed that some form of punishment was necessary. The fact that this was said just says it all. Every person who was affected by this received an apology and explanation from me. Deathworlds, it is clear you took what was told to you and agreed with it without further investigation, and that itself goes against the ethos of being a moderator with the ability to judge and punish others. The point is here, MM wanted to prove me wrong. He can ban me from hosting over a genuine error simply because he has the power to. I am president elect Joe Biden and I do not approve this ban. Also, I'm extremely flattered. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Auteur : Donald J. Trump Date : November 26th, 2020 07:43 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I am president elect Joe Biden and I do not approve this ban. FAKE NEWS!!! IF ALL THE VALID VOTES WERE COUNTED, I WOULD HAVE WON IN A LANDSLIDE!!! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Auteur : Voss Date : November 26th, 2020 08:46 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I disagree with what yiu said. There are definitely issues with moderation on this website, it’s why there’s only 15 people here at any given time =) Not necessarily bias, but more likely cowardice, like I said. Theres also issues with people abusing Red privs to do shit like IP check people/looking up people’s emails (I was a victim of the latter), and just in general all-around admin abuse. There are honestly many issues with admin overreach on this site and its not limited to the FM staff. If anyone wants to discuss further I can make a separate thread/talk via PMs about it. Please make a separate thread. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 26th, 2020 08:51 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Please make a separate thread. Oberon yeah please do I'm curious about what happened and your thoughts on site moderation I think this type of shit makes it clear that we need to make some changes in site moderation -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 08:54 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias FAKE NEWS!!! IF ALL THE VALID VOTES WERE COUNTED, I WOULD HAVE WON IN A LANDSLIDE!!! Who the fuck are you -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 26th, 2020 08:55 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias @Oberon (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=45595) yeah please do I'm curious about what happened and your thoughts on site moderation I think this type of shit makes it clear that we need to make some changes in site moderation alright -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 27th, 2020 08:31 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Once again, there is NO reason why a ban has to be the default decision made when an error happens. Mesk made a judgement call on how to balance it after the mistake, and I 100% understand where she's coming from in her decision to hide the flips because mafia would have been in a even worse situation than they were without not having the vest being used. I will state this again because it's being largely ignored, but if you don't think that she did it purposefully, there's literally no reason to ban her. All you're doing is discouraging people from hosting in the future. Mistakes happen, and trying to fix a mistake in a game shouldn't be getting her banned. I know I said I was stepping away from the thread, but I'm pretty sure everyone can agree on what I'm about to say. Punishments happen when the intent behind the action being judged is reasonably deemed to be malicious. This case was no exception, and the verdict was based on the assumption that malicious intent was indeed the cause of the events. If we were to ban people for making genuine errors, we'd be banning the entire site, myself included. Leaving the rest up to the rest of FM staff. I simply thought this was in dire need of clarification, Unknown1234. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Auteur : Mesk514 Date : November 27th, 2020 09:04 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Punishments happen when the intent behind the action being judged is reasonably deemed to be malicious. This case was no exception, and the verdict was based on the assumption that malicious intent was indeed the cause of the events. I too said I was gonna step away, but this is a very helmet worthy quote -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : November 27th, 2020 10:22 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I know I said I was stepping away from the thread, but I'm pretty sure everyone can agree on what I'm about to say. Punishments happen when the intent behind the action being judged is reasonably deemed to be malicious. This case was no exception, and the verdict was based on the assumption that malicious intent was indeed the cause of the events. If we were to ban people for making genuine errors, we'd be banning the entire site, myself included. Leaving the rest up to the rest of FM staff. I simply thought this was in dire need of clarification, Unknown1234. I think there is absolutely no evidence that any of this was done with malicious intent and would love to see how you came to that conclusion. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 27th, 2020 03:49 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I think there is absolutely no evidence that any of this was done with malicious intent and would love to see how you came to that conclusion. This times a million. Holy fuck where is the evidence? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 27th, 2020 03:50 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I know I said I was stepping away from the thread, but I'm pretty sure everyone can agree on what I'm about to say. Punishments happen when the intent behind the action being judged is reasonably deemed to be malicious. This case was no exception, and the verdict was based on the assumption that malicious intent was indeed the cause of the events. If we were to ban people for making genuine errors, we'd be banning the entire site, myself included. Leaving the rest up to the rest of FM staff. I simply thought this was in dire need of clarification, @Unknown1234 (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=28243) . This is the type of shit that ruins entire communities -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Auteur : Varcron Date : November 27th, 2020 03:57 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I think there is absolutely no evidence that any of this was done with malicious intent and would love to see how you came to that conclusion. I'm sorry MM my boy but I concur with Stealth here I don't believe (from my knowledge) there is any evidence of malicious intent from Mesk in this situation. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 27th, 2020 04:01 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias deathworlds is there any evidence of malicious intent? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Auteur : Unknown1234 Date : November 27th, 2020 04:05 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I mean in his own post he says it's an assumption, which indicates it's more or less because of who it is and not what happened. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Auteur : Varcron Date : November 27th, 2020 04:26 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I'm sorry MM my boy but I concur with Stealth here I don't believe (from my knowledge) there is any evidence of malicious intent from Mesk in this situation. For my own sake, I do not question Mallow's ability to moderate, I just think that this decision may have been based off an assumption (as he himself stated) without fact to back it up which is what is concerning; especially with a punishment like a host ban. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 27th, 2020 04:36 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias js, i called this after he used his mod status to steer daychat in an sfm i was in. staff shouldnt be allowed to participate -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Auteur : Voss Date : November 27th, 2020 05:17 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias js, i called this after he used his mod status to steer daychat in an sfm i was in. staff shouldnt be allowed to participate I'm just popping in here to say this little bit about mm. Mm frustrates me sometimes with how far he goes to maintain game integrity, so I'm absolutely sure he does not use his mod status to his advantage in games. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 27th, 2020 05:25 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I'm just popping in here to say this little bit about mm. Mm frustrates me sometimes with how far he goes to maintain game integrity, so I'm absolutely sure he does not use his mod status to his advantage in games. even if it isnt his intention, if he types *mod hat on* and starts trying to dictate how ppl are gonna play while he is also a player in that sfm, you're naive or ignorant to think that a. he isn't steering the overall day chat, and b. pocketing players who are afraid of going against an admin if staff play in an sfm, they should play on smurfs where NOBODY knows their identity and go through the proper report procedures. not pinging a bud on discord saying "yo, write this up for me" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 27th, 2020 10:37 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias even if it isnt his intention, if he types *mod hat on* and starts trying to dictate how ppl are gonna play while he is also a player in that sfm, you're naive or ignorant to think that a. he isn't steering the overall day chat, and b. pocketing players who are afraid of going against an admin if staff play in an sfm, they should play on smurfs where NOBODY knows their identity and go through the proper report procedures. not pinging a bud on discord saying "yo, write this up for me" I think I know what you’re talking about but MM’s been doing that since before he became staff -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 27th, 2020 11:03 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias For Marshmallow Marshall and Mesk514, I strongly suggest you guys bury the hatchet before you start hating each other. Trust me, I have personal experience with this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 28th, 2020 01:45 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I'm just popping in here to say this little bit about mm. Mm frustrates me sometimes with how far he goes to maintain game integrity, so I'm absolutely sure he does not use his mod status to his advantage in games. I think I know what you’re talking about but MM’s been doing that since before he became staff Mushroom Kingdom 2. I made a post about it in adminhall and got a bunch of non-answers and walking around the subject without actually addressing it. I was gonna be a cunt to people who didn't deserve it so I left it be at that point. If he's done it before he was staff it would have just been steering the daychat as a player does normally. It would even have been fine if he'd told Bruno to knock it off with the bullshit without emoting about his hat but there's no way he didn't at least affect some type of perception in game because of his staff status. That whole game we had a talk about avatars and a ton of people agreed that changing just your avatar alters perception, I got Ceko lunched partially because of him changing his avatar. I absofuckinglutely guarantee playing with the red name alters perception, too. Whether it's advantageous or not is debatable but playing with staff colors is altering perception in a way which is unavailable to most people and it's inherently unbalanced. Continuing to do so after they've been made aware of it is choosing to swing admin dick around in games knowing that it affects the outcome. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Auteur : deathworlds Date : November 28th, 2020 10:42 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I'm going to clarify my position, and my perspective. I won't tolerate any people thinking that I braindead followed MM towards punishment, in fact I was the very first person to suggest that something needed to be done after receiving a report and reading the game. I was not made aware of any interactions between MM and mesk, whatsoever before I suggested that. I just wanted to clear that up, I'm not a puppet for MM, lol. So here's how my thought processes laid out when reading the game based off of four main events. 1.) Auto-vest fail (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/47709-S-FM-315-Undercover?p=903676&viewfull=1#post903676) This seemed like an honest mistake, one that I'm guilty of myself, forgetting the immunities of a role. Had this alone happened, I'm doubtful this thread would be made, or that anything would've came out of the report on Mesk. 2.) First no-flip (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/47709-S-FM-315-Undercover?p=904682&viewfull=1#post904682) This seemed odd to me, and I was genuinely confused, I thought Mesk was just on mobile or something when day ended and genuinely forgot what role Frinckles was, I assumed Mesk would just update later, guess I was wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 3.) Second no-flip (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/47709-S-FM-315-Undercover?p=904976&viewfull=1#post904976) At this point something was up, and from my perspective it seemed like two scenarios were likely A.) Mesk deliberately changed the setup for some reason. or B.) Stopped caring about the game. At this point I didn't make any sort of judgement about whichever it was, but those two scenarios were in my head when reading. 4.) Game end post (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/47709-S-FM-315-Undercover?p=905335&viewfull=1#post905335) This made me believe that Mesk stopped caring about the integrity of the game, specifically this passage I apologize for fucking up MM's flip, I was in a rush to start the day as I was late with starting that day. Since Zedus wants to be a cuck and spam with how I ruined the game, I just decided to ruin it further, and look it did nothing for him. I'll probably be banned from further hosting for telling MM to literally take whatever he's trying to talk to me about and shoving it up his ass, but that's okay, given I haven't hosted anything in like 2 years. and that's okay. Side note, no clue how you guys let Zedus win, but I guess that's what happens when you get a C tier roster at the most. The marked lines in particular made me believe that Mesk stopped caring about hosting in an ethical manner. Which I don't think is an absolutely wild assumption for an outside observer to make. Also, the fact that neither MM or I had any positive interactions with Mesk regarding this whole situation didn't help me believe that Mesk made changes for purposes of emergency balancing, or really cared about the game outside of the bare minimum. So I assumed the worst. What would of helped was knowing if there was any host to player communication about the changes made, which outside of this thread there was no indication of such what-so-ever. Assuming that there was at least some form of communication about it, then that really helps Mesk's case in my eyes, but again, since there was no public communication about it, as an outside observer, I was left assuming the worst. So as of now, my "guilty" verdict stands on the basis that Mesk either stopped caring about the integrity game, or changed the setup for malicious purposes. As a host, I will stand by saying that if any changes are made to the setup, or any host errors are made, then the host should be publicly upfront about it to some degree. That's just a personal thing, not anything intractable or punishable about that in my eyes. If Mesk wants to make an appeal and provide some modicum of evidence that she communicated with her players about the setup being suddenly flipless, then I will gladly overturn the hosting ban, specifically if she can provide any evidence to this line. Again, the intention here was not malice, nor destructive, and virtually had little to no influence, but was a judgment made in the interest of fairness. Anyone within the game who had messaged me regarding this was answered with an apology and an explanation about how I was attempting to rectify the error. Not one person complained directly to me or shared their feelings about how they felt it was unfair. Alternatively, if the original reporter wishes to retract their report in some form, then I suppose that would be grounds for an overturn as well, we really don't have any official protocol for this kind of thing yet. Sorry if any of this doesn't really flow well, I just got off shift, been up for 18 hours, and am half-way through a glass of vodka. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 28th, 2020 10:48 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias ‘I decided to ruin it further’ is very clearly a joke. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Auteur : deathworlds Date : November 28th, 2020 10:54 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias ‘I decided to ruin it further’ is very clearly a joke. i just love your ability to pick and choose which things to respond to, it really blows my mind. anyways I've made my point, I laid out my thought processes, however flawed you may believe them to be, and offered a very direct path for an appeal for both mesk and the reporter. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Auteur : Voss Date : November 28th, 2020 11:08 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Bruno FrostByte can you make another thread about staff playing in fm games? I don't think it's really related to this topic, and I'd like more of a perspective outside of "mm is an abuser". I have some pros and cons in my head that I can outline if one of you wants to make the case. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Auteur : Unknown1234 Date : November 28th, 2020 11:40 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Regardless of how I feel about a ban being unnecessary here, I still appreciate the fact that deathworlds gave us an honest answer on their thoughts and that this could have easily been a different conversation had this been done in the first place. I still think that if this was anyone else being reported this situation would not be resulting in a ban. Even if you aren't trying to be biased, when you make comments like "I thought Mesk was just on mobile or something when day ended and genuinely forgot what role Frinckles was" You're really not giving her much credit here. It speaks to the level of hand-picking who we want banned or not banned, although I believe this is an entirely different conversation for some other day. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 65] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 28th, 2020 12:16 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Speaking of staff being anon in games, maybe making anon games the default for ladder -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 66] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : November 28th, 2020 12:21 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Thanks deathworlds that’s the answer I was looking for. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 67] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : November 28th, 2020 02:11 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias even if it isnt his intention, if he types *mod hat on* and starts trying to dictate how ppl are gonna play while he is also a player in that sfm, you're naive or ignorant to think that a. he isn't steering the overall day chat, and b. pocketing players who are afraid of going against an admin if staff play in an sfm, they should play on smurfs where NOBODY knows their identity and go through the proper report procedures. not pinging a bud on discord saying "yo, write this up for me" I concur with this Also agree that Meal shouldn't be banned from hosting. Mod abuse, plain and simple. She made a mistake. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 68] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : November 28th, 2020 02:13 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias For Marshmallow Marshall and Mesk514, I strongly suggest you guys bury the hatchet before you start hating each other. Trust me, I have personal experience with this. Yeah, like how you declined to bury the hatchet with me when I tried to do so with you 3 times *eye roll* -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 69] Auteur : Voss Date : November 28th, 2020 02:13 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Bruno FrostByte can you make another thread about staff playing in fm games? I don't think it's really related to this topic, and I'd like more of a perspective outside of "mm is an abuser". I have some pros and cons in my head that I can outline if one of you wants to make the case. ^^ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 70] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : November 28th, 2020 02:15 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Yeah, like how you declined to bury the hatchet with me when I tried to do so with you 3 times *eye roll* off topic but you've done literally nothing but antagonize mag for the last month you're not the better person here -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 71] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : November 28th, 2020 02:16 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias off topic but you've done literally nothing but antagonize mag for the last month you're not the better person here Yes I won't deny that But I did try to fix it post Magellan, he declined and we are where we are now. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 72] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 29th, 2020 06:18 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias @deathworlds (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=9527) Thanks for your input on the situation as a whole. All of that blatantly contradicts @Marshmallow Marshall (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=29377) though I know I said I was stepping away from the thread, but I'm pretty sure everyone can agree on what I'm about to say. Punishments happen when the intent behind the action being judged is reasonably deemed to be malicious. This case was no exception, and the verdict was based on the assumption that malicious intent was indeed the cause of the events. If we were to ban people for making genuine errors, we'd be banning the entire site, myself included. Leaving the rest up to the rest of FM staff. I simply thought this was in dire need of clarification, @Unknown1234 (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=28243) . So your assumption, which was made about a situation in which you had a very personal stake, is enough to give out a ban, then? And you don't see the problem with that? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 73] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:52 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/520410710388244491/782784881444651028/truth.png?width=572&height=382 staff is just watching as mm goes above and beyond punishing mesk for an honest host mistake -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 74] Auteur : SuperJack Date : November 30th, 2020 02:45 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias *creates an anon game* *Everyone acts like themselves and makes it obvious* >-> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 75] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 30th, 2020 08:11 AM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias @deathworlds (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=9527) Thanks for your input on the situation as a whole. All of that blatantly contradicts @Marshmallow Marshall (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=29377) though So your assumption, which was made about a situation in which you had a very personal stake, is enough to give out a ban, then? And you don't see the problem with that? Sorry if that was unclear, but it's not "my assumption", and you are omitting to include a word: reasonable (as in "reasonably deemed"). It was the reasonable assumption of FM staff as a whole (and Deathworlds talked about that too) that Mesk maliciously stopped flipping people. I had already explained that in my first posts in this thread, and Deathworlds explained his take on it here (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/47800-Marshmallow-Marshall-s-inability-to-moderate-without-bias?p=906593&viewfull=1#post906593). It literally explains the reasoning. It's an assumption because we cannot prove beyond any doubt that someone's intention was malicious, but we can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, which is what was done. And by the way, there's a misconception that seems common for some reason, so let's make something clear: Therefore, @Mesk514 is henceforth banned from hosting games due to intentionally and avoidably not following the setup by not making players flip anymore at some point of the game. So here's how my thought processes laid out when reading the game based off of four main events. 1.) Auto-vest fail This seemed like an honest mistake, one that I'm guilty of myself, forgetting the immunities of a role. Had this alone happened, I'm doubtful this thread would be made, or that anything would've came out of the report on Mesk. At no point was Mesk punished for not having triggered the autovest, because that was deemed to be an honest mistake by staff, and we don't punish honest mistakes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 76] Auteur : Helz Date : November 30th, 2020 11:14 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias I do feel the judgement was too harsh I dont think its fair to question Marshmallow Marshalls integrity. Deathworlds reasoning makes a lot of sense to speak to FM staff assuming Mesk was intentionally trolling although the action in question preserved the game functioning. Questioning if it was an allowed action given Mesk pretty much posted she would make all calls without limits is an entire discussion in itself. I played one bastardized setup where the Host had told town they were lost mafia but told the mafia their team which received some hard backlash. Thats the closest game I can compare this situation to. (For those that dont know Bastard setups allow for the host to influence the game and lie to the players) I will also say it sucks to moderate and have a trial by public after the fact. I think a simple appeal would resolve everything easily given Deathworlds last post and its not really any of our place to question their judgment. The appeals system is specifically designed to prevent bias and would probably stop all the drama. There is no need to fracture a community so small when such a path to resolution exists. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 77] Auteur : Bruno Date : December 1st, 2020 12:45 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias the people want freedom for mesk -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 78] Auteur : BananaCucho Date : December 1st, 2020 01:12 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias Free Mesk -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 79] Auteur : Bruno Date : December 1st, 2020 01:13 PM Title : Re: Marshmallow Marshall's inability to moderate without bias marshmallow be like: im doing so much to keep the site alive also marshmallow: doesnt host also marshmallow: bans active hosts also marshmallow: refuses to heal divide -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-