* * * SC2 Mafia Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : staff should be anonymous in sfm https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47819 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 28th, 2020 09:45 PM Title : staff should be anonymous in sfm ladder or not. doesnt matter. not necessary for every player to be on a smurf. only the players with flashy names and badges that can subconsciously effect the way other players perceive them nobody should know who they are, either. not even other mods say you're an fm admin. say you're in a game. say you disagree with something or feel its a staff issue. ok, so make an answerhall thread with your evidence and dont mention who you are. i feel like something like this doesnt need to be explained in a thread? either way, site is dying. site been dying. 6 yrs ago thered be 30ppl on at any given time shit posting. now most days site is dead by 9pm. sad. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 28th, 2020 09:47 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Voss here's the thread u wanted. not sure what else to say. i feel this is a self explanatory issue. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : November 28th, 2020 09:50 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm id be open to anonymous games being the standard for FM -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 28th, 2020 09:51 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Mushroom Kingdom 2. I made a post about it in adminhall and got a bunch of non-answers and walking around the subject without actually addressing it. I was gonna be a cunt to people who didn't deserve it so I left it be at that point. If he's done it before he was staff it would have just been steering the daychat as a player does normally. It would even have been fine if he'd told Bruno to knock it off with the bullshit without emoting about his hat but there's no way he didn't at least affect some type of perception in game because of his staff status. That whole game we had a talk about avatars and a ton of people agreed that changing just your avatar alters perception, I got Ceko lunched partially because of him changing his avatar. I absofuckinglutely guarantee playing with the red name alters perception, too. Whether it's advantageous or not is debatable but playing with staff colors is altering perception in a way which is unavailable to most people and it's inherently unbalanced. Continuing to do so after they've been made aware of it is choosing to swing admin dick around in games knowing that it affects the outcome. Just gonna quote my post from before. Voss what is your opinion on the red words? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 28th, 2020 09:52 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm id be open to anonymous games being the standard for FM Back in the day that was the major player facing difference between full FMs and S-FMs. Full FMs with anonymous accounts were fucking dope. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : November 28th, 2020 09:54 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Back in the day that was the major player facing difference between full FMs and S-FMs. Full FMs with anonymous accounts were fucking dope. Yeah, I was in FM XXIV(?). Absolutely wild. It was one of the last ones, I think. At one point we had plans to host another but that fell through because of both community size issues and commitment issues. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 28th, 2020 10:29 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm id be open to anonymous games being the standard for FM same -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Auteur : DJarJar Date : November 28th, 2020 10:45 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I don’t think what you want is really possible here cuz 1. It basically implies everyone in all games should be anonymous because being a staff member is just one of many factors that can affect perception in games. Whether the person is your friend or enemy, whether they’re a noob or not, meta reads you might have, whether they’re generally considered good or bad at the game, blah blah it all gets factored in. 2. A lot of people on this site couldn’t be anon anyways. Like even if you gave them a new account people would still figure out it was them just from their unique quirks, way of talking etc. I mean especially the staff as they’re some of the most active and well-known 3. That’s kind of what this site is about to some extent. Like how it’s unique from other bigger mafia sites. Is that it’s sort of a family where most people know each other well. I mean other then that, why do people keep coming back here to play FM when there are bigger sites It’s kind of interesting because you’re saying essentially to regulate more to retain players and Mag was advocating the opposite saying less would retain more players. I feel like the FM staff just try their best to find a happy medium and don’t always succeed. But that’s part of the charm of this site because when anyone messes up people feel free to shit all over them, which you couldn’t get away with on any of the more established sites. I mean if you want to mandate all anon games I guess sure? But like I think people like being “known” on here and it’s part of why they keep coming back. And in anon games people will just com hunt or they’ll intentionally reveal themselves if they know it benefits them from a meta perspective. I just can’t see an ideal solution outside of having a player base so large that you’d almost never be able to recognize anybody else in the game -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Auteur : rumox Date : November 28th, 2020 10:54 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I'm not against staff flipping their colour off when playing FM, but where is the line drawn? Is it FM staff/admins or everyone with coloured names? New people wont know the difference for awhile since it isn't glaringly obvious what colour represents what. I also haven't heard of this being an issue in for the ~4 years I have been active here, so I would be cautious to enact a reactionary policy based off one outlier game. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Auteur : DJarJar Date : November 28th, 2020 10:59 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I'm not against staff flipping their colour off when playing FM, but where is the line drawn? Is it FM staff/admins or everyone with coloured names? New people wont know the difference for awhile since it isn't glaringly obvious what colour represents what. I also haven't heard of this being an issue in for the ~4 years I have been active here, so I would be cautious to enact a reactionary policy based off one outlier game. Yea I mean there’s no point flipping the colors off if all the active players will still know exactly who it is, it just randomly puts the new/unfamiliar players at a disadvantage -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Auteur : Voss Date : November 28th, 2020 11:18 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I think the the argument on moderation is more nuanced that, aamirus, but I agree with all the other points you've made and well put. On a more technical note, I believe it's a lot of overhead to build and maintain this infrastructure to support this. Staff members will have to keep recycling their smurf account anytime there's a suspicion that their real persona has been found out. So that's pressure on the fm staff to keep doing this, or on the staff member themselves. I'd guess that this would stop some staff members from even bothering to play, would it not? If it were technically easy to generate anonymous accounts and switch back and forth between them, (like it is on MU???), I'd love for all anonymous games. Just not worth the overhead. Personally, (and I've said this before) I think the healthier strategy is for the veteran non staff to lead by example and give the ranked folk a good fight. So if you, Bruno, are playing with aamirus and some new member, you don't let aamirus walk over the new member. However, there's an underlying nuance here I think that begs the following question before we get to solutioning. What is the root problem? Is it that there are staff that abuse their ranks to their advantage in forum mafia on purpose? Or that staff get some inherent advantage just by having a color and/or rank? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Auteur : Voss Date : November 28th, 2020 11:20 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm On a more technical note, I believe it's a lot of overhead to build and maintain this infrastructure to support this. Staff members will have to keep recycling their smurf account anytime there's a suspicion that their real persona has been found out. So that's pressure on the fm staff to keep doing this, or on the staff member themselves. I'd guess that this would stop some staff members from even bothering to play, would it not?[/COLOR][/B] To give a silly example. Say MM hosted some sfm game and got DR to play. Do you think DR would be less likely to play if they had to get on a smurf account? Do you think that game would fill up faster knowing DR would play? Silly example, but that can be extrapolated to most of the people that play on this site, no? I know a lot of the oldies will play when other oldies play, but couldn't give a fuck when a new player signs. (No offense, but I think this is true). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Auteur : Voss Date : November 28th, 2020 11:26 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Just gonna quote my post from before. Voss what is your opinion on the red words? I think you saying that it's unbalanced implies that there's advantage to playing with staff colors. So whether or not it's unbalanced is also up for debate. If there is an advantage, I think it is or can be made minuscule and is treated by the newer member playing with the colored staff member more often. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 29th, 2020 12:03 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm The only argument for this as I see it is staff using their red name to get others to act in a certain way (with the threat of infraction). This is mostly limited in my experience to getting people to play nice. I’ve never seen this being abused maliciously AFAIK, though. In theory I fully agree with this restriction but in practice it rarely causes issues as far as I can tell. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Auteur : Voss Date : November 29th, 2020 12:06 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm what about greens or purples? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Auteur : Kenny Date : November 29th, 2020 01:18 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I think the root problem is that for example aamirus saying someone gamethrows as part of her scumgame has much more impact and might get people to actually take it serious when her name is red, than it would if she was on the white smurf acc bbmirus. Being known or not isn't the problem here, just that use of the account with colour also implies that the powers are there and the action can be taken at any time. When it's a (not anonymous) smurf acc it kinda tells you mod status is now off, and the only people doing something are the other mods outside the game -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Auteur : Helz Date : November 29th, 2020 02:10 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I feel like Anon games totally have the advantage of a lack of 'this player is good' thing but thats why anon games exist to begin with to mitigate Meta. The only issue I took with FM/Staff shit was when I figured out I could see invisible players. The major issues I have seen on other sites related to staff cheating. Obligating anon is kinda silly and would just make this site more radical than it already is in the global community. Conflicts of interest controls can easily be managed through the existing staff structure as I understand it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:16 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I don’t think what you want is really possible here cuz 1. It basically implies everyone in all games should be anonymous because being a staff member is just one of many factors that can affect perception in games. Whether the person is your friend or enemy, whether they’re a noob or not, meta reads you might have, whether they’re generally considered good or bad at the game, blah blah it all gets factored in. Meta means nothing. Check Mushroom Kingdom. Never played with any of those bitches and I knew 2/3 of scum by EoD 1. Got godfather lynched. They're all whining about meta and never once steered town in an accurate lynch cuz they were dumb af. 2. A lot of people on this site couldn’t be anon anyways. Like even if you gave them a new account people would still figure out it was them just from their unique quirks, way of talking etc. I mean especially the staff as they’re some of the most active and well-known That's fine. Having a suspicion of who someone is is better than flagrantly having red-tag name steering daychat and pocketing ppl cuz admin 3. That’s kind of what this site is about to some extent. Like how it’s unique from other bigger mafia sites. Is that it’s sort of a family where most people know each other well. I mean other then that, why do people keep coming back here to play FM when there are bigger sites People don't come back here. This site is dying. Know why? Cuz you used to actually be able to joke and call eachother niggers and roast, and now slowly but surely the site is being pussified. I think it's quite clear this site is dying. Crazy how it's existed as COM sicne 2008, and then became Mafia in 2012, and only recently has begun facing real player # challenges. Used to be monthly 30 player FMs. Now it can take weeks to fill a 12 player game. STRONGLY disagree on your theory of what makes this site popular. It’s kind of interesting because you’re saying essentially to regulate more to retain players and Mag was advocating the opposite saying less would retain more players. I feel like the FM staff just try their best to find a happy medium and don’t always succeed. But that’s part of the charm of this site because when anyone messes up people feel free to shit all over them, which you couldn’t get away with on any of the more established sites. Gonna disagree again, read my above reply. I mean if you want to mandate all anon games I guess sure? But like I think people like being “known” on here and it’s part of why they keep coming back. And in anon games people will just com hunt or they’ll intentionally reveal themselves if they know it benefits them from a meta perspective. I just can’t see an ideal solution outside of having a player base so large that you’d almost never be able to recognize anybody else in the game That's why not every player would be expected to be anon. I'm not talking about making an alt for solely playing SFM. I'm talking about a smurf. Make an account. post on it like once every so often, play games, and go through channels players go through to report grievances. Seems pretty easy. If it's an ADMIN who "intentionally reveals themselves for meta", then that speaks to the effect of the red name pocketing players and steering day chat, doesn't it? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:16 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm what about greens or purples? to a lesser extent, they mean nothing. fuck a green lmao what's fag gonna do? fuck a purple who gives a fuck -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:18 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm The only argument for this as I see it is staff using their red name to get others to act in a certain way (with the threat of infraction). This is mostly limited in my experience to getting people to play nice. I’ve never seen this being abused maliciously AFAIK, though. In theory I fully agree with this restriction but in practice it rarely causes issues as far as I can tell. ok but we literally discussed in Mushroom Kingdom the subconscious aspect avatars play in scumreads, scumpaints, etc. so you're talking out of your dirty asshole to imply a colored name also doesn't subconsciously impact most players. especially an admin tag -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:18 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I think you saying that it's unbalanced implies that there's advantage to playing with staff colors. So whether or not it's unbalanced is also up for debate. If there is an advantage, I think it is or can be made minuscule and is treated by the newer member playing with the colored staff member more often. there is an advantage. again, read my response to oberon. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:20 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I think the the argument on moderation is more nuanced that, aamirus, but I agree with all the other points you've made and well put. On a more technical note, I believe it's a lot of overhead to build and maintain this infrastructure to support this. Staff members will have to keep recycling their smurf account anytime there's a suspicion that their real persona has been found out. So that's pressure on the fm staff to keep doing this, or on the staff member themselves. I'd guess that this would stop some staff members from even bothering to play, would it not? If it were technically easy to generate anonymous accounts and switch back and forth between them, (like it is on MU???), I'd love for all anonymous games. Just not worth the overhead. Personally, (and I've said this before) I think the healthier strategy is for the veteran non staff to lead by example and give the ranked folk a good fight. So if you, Bruno, are playing with aamirus and some new member, you don't let aamirus walk over the new member. However, there's an underlying nuance here I think that begs the following question before we get to solutioning. What is the root problem? Is it that there are staff that abuse their ranks to their advantage in forum mafia on purpose? Or that staff get some inherent advantage just by having a color and/or rank? i dont give a fuck if staff play or not. that's the sacrifice, no? when you decide you no longer want to be a PLAYER, but instead an ADMIN or MODERATOR, there's sacrifices involved. again, i think that would be obvious. staff can make smurfs. let them make multiples if they're paranoid and fragile enough to think they've been exposed. literally does not matter. yes, staff receives inherent bonus by colored name. that should be well established by now -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:21 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm To give a silly example. Say MM hosted some sfm game and got DR to play. Do you think DR would be less likely to play if they had to get on a smurf account? Do you think that game would fill up faster knowing DR would play? Silly example, but that can be extrapolated to most of the people that play on this site, no? I know a lot of the oldies will play when other oldies play, but couldn't give a fuck when a new player signs. (No offense, but I think this is true). 5 minutes to make a new account? no, i don't think that'd deter most ppl who intend to play and not lurk anyway. dr would never play again, and this is a strawman red herring. so... bruh really? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:22 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm there's a difference between vet/oldie and ACTIVE STAFF playing. im not sure what is so difficult to comprehend here -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:23 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm site is dying. no f-fm in years. playerbase in sfm is tanking. and the solution is do nothing, after i've brought significant grievances to light. fuck it, im just here to troll. y'all can run the bitch into the ground if it's your prerogative. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Auteur : yzb25 Date : November 29th, 2020 09:03 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I never found it to be a big deal what colour names ppl have. I've always been far more intimidated by players who have a reputation of "being good". You learn who those players are very quickly even if you're new because everyone is kissing their ass lol. If I ever really felt like someone was trying to flex their admin powers over me... I dunno. I'd probably be pissed rather than intimidated and make a thread about how the admins are corrupt and the site is going to hell like this one lol. The power of the admins is conditional. If they're pricks they'll just get roasted. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 29th, 2020 09:08 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I feel like Anon games totally have the advantage of a lack of 'this player is good' thing but thats why anon games exist to begin with to mitigate Meta. The only issue I took with FM/Staff shit was when I figured out I could see invisible players. The major issues I have seen on other sites related to staff cheating. Obligating anon is kinda silly and would just make this site more radical than it already is in the global community. Conflicts of interest controls can easily be managed through the existing staff structure as I understand it. ^^^^^^ And we removed the permission of staff (even admins) being able to see invisible mode, since it was giving an unfair advantage to mods. Staff can't take advantage of their position to benefit anyone in games. Should they do that, you report them with evidence and they get slapped hard, because it's a serious breach of integrity. Now, what you're saying is that people knowing that someone is staff and could in theory threaten press a ban button on someone to get a game advantage (just before getting demoted and banned, of course) is something that scares people. Well, let me tell you something. If you ever are refraining from doing something solely because you're talking to staff but that it doesn't break the rules, YOU CAN DO IT! You are 100 % free to call staff scum and to get them lynched if you think they're scum, and 100 % free to create a shitstorm if you're banned for it lol because staff would be going against their own rules. Forcing staff to play on alts is silly because: - the person is still there, and if the person truly wanted to be a dirty staff member, it could just hop on its main - alts can be recognized (unless staff is forced to be unrecognizable, which would be terribly hard, especially after many games) - staff can get people into games because they signed, because they happen to be relatively old people with contacts - player meta is a thing, and staff is free to want player meta to exist for them in non-anon games As for anonymous games, sure! If people want anonymous games, they can just host their games with anonymous accounts. Same thing with "overmoderation", by the way: if you want to, you can go to the Approved Setups subforum, take a setup you like, and repost it in the Workshop with the rule "You may do whatever you want" (or with rules that are very unrestrictive). Staff (and yourself as a host) won't infract anyone because nothing will be forbidden! Just the illegal activities, doxxing, etc. parts will be, but people in your game will be free to insult eachother like crazy and even to OGC if you explicitely let them. The FM rules grant you that right. HOSTS, TAKE YOUR FREEDOM, YOU HAVE IT. ESTABLISH YOUR RULES IN YOUR SETUP PAGE. But then, you, who sign for games, have to respect those rules and not afterwards accuse either hosts or staff of enforcing them: you've agreed to abide to them. Bruno FrostByte Oberon -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 29th, 2020 09:09 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I never found it to be a big deal what colour names ppl have. I've always been far more intimidated by players who have a reputation of "being good". You learn who those players are very quickly even if you're new because everyone is kissing their ass lol. If I ever really felt like someone was trying to flex their admin powers over me... I dunno. I'd probably be pissed rather than intimidated and make a thread about how the admins are corrupt and the site is going to hell like this one lol. The power of the admins is conditional. If they're pricks they'll just get roasted. Literally this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Auteur : Kenny Date : November 29th, 2020 11:00 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Literally this.That quote is entirely proving the point tho, isn't it? This thread here exists. So obviously that means you, or another admin, did give off the feeling of having flexed admin powers. Same thing with Mesk's thread too. She made it that way because she felt you acted in her game like an admin instead of a player. The solution of using an acc with white name on the other hand would highlight and show that your sign was made as a player, and you're participating as a player. Even if you're still the same person, using a different acc and as a result having to change accounts for admin actions would be a totally different situation that gives off a far more relaxing feel to other players. It's one more barrier the admin has to cross before getting the chance to act, which he's supposed to never use. Here, an example to illustrate the situation, without intent of any negative implications. Try imagining having a tame but deadly snake in front of you. The guy owning the snake says it's harmless, but there's still the chance it's gonna bite. Then imagine there's a glass door between you and the snake. Even knowing the snake could just get through the door if it wanted to, you'd be far more relaxed with the barrier than without, wouldn't you? I think that's roughly comparable here. The extra account would be that barrier, and by placing it you're showing everyone that you actually really mean it when you're saying that you're only participating as player instead of admin. Mesk fairly clearly said she didn't feel like you're just acting like a player, so I think showing it that way would be great. I'm not even trying to criticise the actions you took or are taking as admin. You should know by now that I'd just tell you on discord if I felt like that. I'm going by the responses that were displayed by several players so far here. These threads here show that just your simple words about acting and playing as player instead of admin don't mean enough. This is mafia after all, words mean shit here. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 29th, 2020 12:37 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm That quote is entirely proving the point tho, isn't it? This thread here exists. So obviously that means you, or another admin, did give off the feeling of having flexed admin powers. Same thing with Mesk's thread too. She made it that way because she felt you acted in her game like an admin instead of a player. The solution of using an acc with white name on the other hand would highlight and show that your sign was made as a player, and you're participating as a player. Even if you're still the same person, using a different acc and as a result having to change accounts for admin actions would be a totally different situation that gives off a far more relaxing feel to other players. It's one more barrier the admin has to cross before getting the chance to act, which he's supposed to never use. Here, an example to illustrate the situation, without intent of any negative implications. Try imagining having a tame but deadly snake in front of you. The guy owning the snake says it's harmless, but there's still the chance it's gonna bite. Then imagine there's a glass door between you and the snake. Even knowing the snake could just get through the door if it wanted to, you'd be far more relaxed with the barrier than without, wouldn't you? I think that's roughly comparable here. The extra account would be that barrier, and by placing it you're showing everyone that you actually really mean it when you're saying that you're only participating as player instead of admin. Mesk fairly clearly said she didn't feel like you're just acting like a player, so I think showing it that way would be great. I'm not even trying to criticise the actions you took or are taking as admin. You should know by now that I'd just tell you on discord if I felt like that. I'm going by the responses that were displayed by several players so far here. These threads here show that just your simple words about acting and playing as player instead of admin don't mean enough. This is mafia after all, words mean shit here. Putting something up that restricts staff members' freedom as players (the freedom of having a meta and the stress of having to conceal an identity) when they don't want to and that doesn't actually prevent anything is no "solution"; plus, it's not like abuse actually happened anywhere, unless telling someone, independently from a player identity, that telling someone to be a man and blow their brains out is against the rules is abuse, in which case abuse is literally everywhere. And if I thought the administration of a community were so deeply corrupt that righteous and legitimate reports would do nothing or would get me banned, well, I'd probably leave that community, because there would no trust in any form of fairness. This isn't the case here. Your snake illustration has two major flaws: - The snake and its owner are the same person in the real world. "Biting" would imply that staff has extraordinarily evil intent, it's not like it's something uncontrolled like a snake. If you really believe staff has evil intent, report. Plus... - ...are you going to tell me that an admin with evil intent, who wants to abuse his powers, won't change accounts, even though it takes 15 seconds to do? The very existence of moderation implies the latent risk of abuse, and it won't change just because you disguise moderators. And by the way, this kind of suggestion is, as far as I know, completely unprecedented in the worldwide FM community; it's not like we're some kind of archaic dictatorship. It's not like game integrity is at stake either. So really, I don't think there is a systemic problem. And even assuming there would be one, it would stop nothing. All it'd do is be unfair for staff. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Auteur : Kenny Date : November 29th, 2020 12:51 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Putting something up that restricts staff members' freedom as players (the freedom of having a meta and the stress of having to conceal an identity) when they don't want to and that doesn't actually prevent anything is no "solution"; plus, it's not like abuse actually happened anywhere, unless telling someone, independently from a player identity, that telling someone to be a man and blow their brains out is against the rules is abuse, in which case abuse is literally everywhere. And if I thought the administration of a community were so deeply corrupt that righteous and legitimate reports would do nothing or would get me banned, well, I'd probably leave that community, because there would no trust in any form of fairness. This isn't the case here. Your snake illustration has two major flaws: - The snake and its owner are the same person in the real world. "Biting" would imply that staff has extraordinarily evil intent, it's not like it's something uncontrolled like a snake. If you really believe staff has evil intent, report. Plus... - ...are you going to tell me that an admin with evil intent, who wants to abuse his powers, won't change accounts, even though it takes 15 seconds to do? The very existence of moderation implies the latent risk of abuse, and it won't change just because you disguise moderators. And by the way, this kind of suggestion is, as far as I know, completely unprecedented in the worldwide FM community; it's not like we're some kind of archaic dictatorship. It's not like game integrity is at stake either. So really, I don't think there is a systemic problem. And even assuming there would be one, it would stop nothing. All it'd do is be unfair for staff.I'm not suggesting to change one's meta and actually try to stay anon as much as possible. I'm suggesting to use a white acc that obviously still belongs to you simply to further display that you're a player when signing and not an admin. It's not the perfect solution to every ploblem, but a step to simply come forward towards players. A compromise. In my illustration the snake would be owned by someone else. I by no means intend to say you'd be a snake, but I do wanna say that no matter how much you or someone else, maybe myself, says about how friendly and kind you are, someone who doesn't know may still end up thinking that you might bite, like that snake. I think threads like this are proof that the issue does exist. I can't say much about other sites. I'm not really involved in anything like this anywhere. It totally is possible that this would be the only site to implement that kinda system if it were to happen. But it's still a good move towards the playerbase, no? And for once this site would actually be pioneering in something that helps players, unlike with changes like the removal of lynch which happened after other sites did it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 29th, 2020 02:12 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I'm not suggesting to change one's meta and actually try to stay anon as much as possible. I'm suggesting to use a white acc that obviously still belongs to you simply to further display that you're a player when signing and not an admin. It's not the perfect solution to every ploblem, but a step to simply come forward towards players. A compromise. In my illustration the snake would be owned by someone else. I by no means intend to say you'd be a snake, but I do wanna say that no matter how much you or someone else, maybe myself, says about how friendly and kind you are, someone who doesn't know may still end up thinking that you might bite, like that snake. I think threads like this are proof that the issue does exist. I can't say much about other sites. I'm not really involved in anything like this anywhere. It totally is possible that this would be the only site to implement that kinda system if it were to happen. But it's still a good move towards the playerbase, no? And for once this site would actually be pioneering in something that helps players, unlike with changes like the removal of lynch which happened after other sites did it. I know you weren't calling me a snake, I'm not insulted XD. You're actually trying to answer an existing concern, and so am I, we're just taking different paths and that's respectable. I will be honest, I find it completely ridiculous and meaningless, and even somewhat deceitful towards the players lol. There's one thing that's concievable, though: that people don't like staff acting as staff in a game they're in, even if they make it clear they aren't talking as players. In an ideal world, it would never happen, but sometimes, game integrity seems too heavily threatened by rulebreaking. That's a big part of why I recently posted a "FM Staff is hiring!" thread, and why Deathworlds was hired: we needed someone to be able to do this when needed from an external perspective, and who is clearly not acting as a player with absolutely no ambiguity possible. So, if there's a good move towards the playerbase, it consists of staff deciding to avoid "putting the mod hat on" and to contact a staff member who's not involved in the game for an independent view and a warning in-game if the independent staff member deems it necessary... Which was already decided way before all of this (again, hence why Deathworlds was hired), and was actually prompted by FrostByte's feedback on the matter (it's not because I take a formal tone that I'm saying bullshit, sir, your civil and honest feedback truly was appreciated :P). It should now be pretty much always possible, because there'll always be someone available under a reasonable delay to check things out, so this shouldn't cause issues. And again, if I may just say, in-game enforcement is up to hosts. When you host, the rules you define give you a lot of power and a lot of responsibilities. In an ideal world, things wouldn't go out of hand because hosts would warn and replace if needed. Not blaming anyone, just stating a reality. I believe the staff policy I described above (about having a non-participating staff member check the situation independently instead of having things such as "mod hat on") should answer the concerns. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 02:32 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I know you weren't calling me a snake, I'm not insulted XD. You're actually trying to answer an existing concern, and so am I, we're just taking different paths and that's respectable. I will be honest, I find it completely ridiculous and meaningless, and even somewhat deceitful towards the players lol. There's one thing that's concievable, though: that people don't like staff acting as staff in a game they're in, even if they make it clear they aren't talking as players. In an ideal world, it would never happen, but sometimes, game integrity seems too heavily threatened by rulebreaking. That's a big part of why I recently posted a "FM Staff is hiring!" thread, and why Deathworlds was hired: we needed someone to be able to do this when needed from an external perspective, and who is clearly not acting as a player with absolutely no ambiguity possible. So, if there's a good move towards the playerbase, it consists of staff deciding to avoid "putting the mod hat on" and to contact a staff member who's not involved in the game for an independent view and a warning in-game if the independent staff member deems it necessary... Which was already decided way before all of this (again, hence why Deathworlds was hired), and was actually prompted by FrostByte's feedback on the matter (it's not because I take a formal tone that I'm saying bullshit, sir, your civil and honest feedback truly was appreciated :P). It should now be pretty much always possible, because there'll always be someone available under a reasonable delay to check things out, so this shouldn't cause issues. And again, if I may just say, in-game enforcement is up to hosts. When you host, the rules you define give you a lot of power and a lot of responsibilities. In an ideal world, things wouldn't go out of hand because hosts would warn and replace if needed. Not blaming anyone, just stating a reality. I believe the staff policy I described above (about having a non-participating staff member check the situation independently instead of having things such as "mod hat on") should answer the concerns. you didnt address any concerns about how people subconsciously react to scumpainting and challenging admin or other staff usergroups. again: if avatars can have a subconscious effect on how players will treat, perceive, or read a player, then how could you possibly argue having a colored name, like red, doesnt have a similar result? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Auteur : Voss Date : November 29th, 2020 02:44 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm fyi, i wasn't part of the discussion where people changing avatars resulting in meta reads -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Auteur : Auwt Date : November 29th, 2020 03:00 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm To be fair, I do not even guess what the main problem is. Like, staff are humans, and so are every other players. What's the deal of being scared of anything ? Even if I had my nick in the basic color with a basic non-staff role, my playstyle towards staff would have been alike towards regular players. Whenever an admin, or staff in general decides to sign in a FM, they put themselves in the same position as all the other players. So they should be treated the same way. Having staff member on a game doesn't mean the game is biaised. It's like having a police car behind you when you are driving. As long as you don't break the rules, you can consider them as your equivalent. The difference, however, shows up at the moment you do break the rules. So now, try to replace regulars cars (admin) by unmarked car (anonymous admin). You will realize, it won't change anything. The only point I could see, is when an admin is in a game, players tend to be more cautious not to break the rules (even though some really dgaf*). Which is practically a good thing, in my opinion. I would like to hear the in-depth reason of posting this thread to understand the reasoning behind it. Regarding anon games, I have never played anonymous game, and my given isn't really positive. I believe the game loses it's charm in some extent. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Auteur : Kenny Date : November 29th, 2020 03:37 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm It's like having a police car behind you when you are driving. As long as you don't break the rules, you can consider them as your equivalent. The difference, however, shows up at the moment you do break the rules. So now, try to replace regulars cars (admin) by unmarked car (anonymous admin). You will realize, it won't change anything. That's because you're french. Americans evidently start to panic when they see the police behind them. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 03:45 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm fyi, i wasn't part of the discussion where people changing avatars resulting in meta reads that's fine, you didn't really need to be part of the discussion to be informed of the general agreement that they do. thats why im saying it ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 03:46 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm To be fair, I do not even guess what the main problem is. Like, staff are humans, and so are every other players. What's the deal of being scared of anything ? Even if I had my nick in the basic color with a basic non-staff role, my playstyle towards staff would have been alike towards regular players. Whenever an admin, or staff in general decides to sign in a FM, they put themselves in the same position as all the other players. So they should be treated the same way. Having staff member on a game doesn't mean the game is biaised. It's like having a police car behind you when you are driving. As long as you don't break the rules, you can consider them as your equivalent. The difference, however, shows up at the moment you do break the rules. So now, try to replace regulars cars (admin) by unmarked car (anonymous admin). You will realize, it won't change anything. The only point I could see, is when an admin is in a game, players tend to be more cautious not to break the rules (even though some really dgaf*). Which is practically a good thing, in my opinion. I would like to hear the in-depth reason of posting this thread to understand the reasoning behind it. Regarding anon games, I have never played anonymous game, and my given isn't really positive. I believe the game loses it's charm in some extent. "ive never played an anon game, so here's my totally invalid and unrelated opinion" evidence a: if mm had been on a smurf account, then whatever perceived 'beef' existed between mm and mesk wouldn't have had any weight in the ruling that mesk "maliciously" forgot to vest mm. seems obvious enough -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Auteur : Renegade Date : November 29th, 2020 04:01 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm That's because you're french. Americans evidently start to panic when they see the police behind them. This is 100% true lolll. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Auteur : Auwt Date : November 29th, 2020 04:20 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm That's because you're french. Americans evidently start to panic when they see the police behind them. Good point. "ive never played an anon game, so here's my totally invalid and unrelated opinion" evidence a: if mm had been on a smurf account, then whatever perceived 'beef' existed between mm and mesk wouldn't have had any weight in the ruling that mesk "maliciously" forgot to vest mm. seems obvious enough Even though I haven't played any anonymous game, I don't see how my opinion is invalid. The statements previously said, still stand as how I am seeing this thread. I don't want to escalate that much this subject related to the MM/Mesk interaction. Keep in mind, I'm not positioning myself into this. MM being on an anonymous account would have done the same thing imo. It's not because you are on an alt that you suddenly forget everything about everyone. I mean, imagine someone running a red light. Whether you have a undercover or non-undercover police man behind you, the outcome would be the same. And grudges, "beef" or whatever you would say would therefore not be part of the judgement. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Auteur : Kenny Date : November 29th, 2020 04:20 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm On a serious note tho, Auwt's example is on point. An admin having a red or a white name is exactly the difference between the police driving in a police or a regular car. And the communication issue exists there too. You don't want to start shouting at someone for driving like a retard when they're in a police car. It's exactly this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Auteur : Kenny Date : November 29th, 2020 04:36 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Good point. Even though I haven't played any anonymous game, I don't see how my opinion is invalid. The statements previously said, still stand as how I am seeing this thread. I don't want to escalate that much this subject related to the MM/Mesk interaction. Keep in mind, I'm not positioning myself into this. MM being on an anonymous account would have done the same thing imo. It's not because you are on an alt that you suddenly forget everything about everyone. I mean, imagine someone running a red light. Whether you have a undercover or non-undercover police man behind you, the outcome would be the same. And grudges, "beef" or whatever you would say would therefore not be part of the judgement.You are only looking at one specific outcome there. There are many other situations where the other party is the one putting you at risk for no visible reason. In such situations them being in a police car prevents you from pressing the horn and telling them your unbiased genuine opinion. It creates a barrier between the 2 parties that wouldn't be there if both had the same standing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 04:53 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Good point. Even though I haven't played any anonymous game, I don't see how my opinion is invalid. The statements previously said, still stand as how I am seeing this thread. I don't want to escalate that much this subject related to the MM/Mesk interaction. Keep in mind, I'm not positioning myself into this. MM being on an anonymous account would have done the same thing imo. It's not because you are on an alt that you suddenly forget everything about everyone. I mean, imagine someone running a red light. Whether you have a undercover or non-undercover police man behind you, the outcome would be the same. And grudges, "beef" or whatever you would say would therefore not be part of the judgement. so if mm had been on an anonymous account and mesk didnt know mm was, say, alt named X mesk fucks up night action for X, resulting in X dying how in the fuck could it ever possibly be assumed mesk intentionally fucked over X because mesk happened to know X was mm? lmfao your analogies suck ass stop comparing yourself to police. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 04:53 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm there must be a language barrier problem -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Auteur : Stealthbomber16 Date : November 29th, 2020 05:46 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm so if mm had been on an anonymous account and mesk didnt know mm was, say, alt named X mesk fucks up night action for X, resulting in X dying how in the fuck could it ever possibly be assumed mesk intentionally fucked over X because mesk happened to know X was mm? lmfao your analogies suck ass stop comparing yourself to police. I strongly disagree with the thought of alt accounts for staff members being in games and hosts NOT knowing who they are. This could lead to dishonesty in games where people sign up under multiple accounts. It's already kind of easy to do right now provided you use a VPN but promoting a practice where users consistently hide behind other accounts could cause serious problems down the road. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 05:49 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I strongly disagree with the thought of alt accounts for staff members being in games and hosts NOT knowing who they are. This could lead to dishonesty in games where people sign up under multiple accounts. It's already kind of easy to do right now provided you use a VPN but promoting a practice where users consistently hide behind other accounts could cause serious problems down the road. if staff would abuse trust placed in them by signing w/ multiple accounts why the fuck are they staff lmfao -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 29th, 2020 06:04 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm That's because you're french. Americans evidently start to panic when they see the police behind them. Because our police kidnap and murder us regularly. Y'all get to step out when you get pulled over because police treat you like humans. We have to stay put, literally don't move, put our hands on our steering wheel, and meekly ask permission to grab necessary documents out of our glovebox otherwise we run the risk of getting shot. Literal gun to your head you'd feel the same way. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 29th, 2020 06:07 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm you didnt address any concerns about how people subconsciously react to scumpainting and challenging admin or other staff usergroups. again: if avatars can have a subconscious effect on how players will treat, perceive, or read a player, then how could you possibly argue having a colored name, like red, doesnt have a similar result? I'm gonna make it real big because people keep missing this, which is the entire point of the fucking thread: if avatars can have a subconscious effect on how players will treat, perceive, or read a player, then how could you possibly argue having a colored name, like red, doesnt have a similar result? Voss Marshmallow Marshall Auwt Oberon yzb25 aamirus Kenny rumox "ive never played an anon game, so here's my totally invalid and unrelated opinion" evidence a: if mm had been on a smurf account, then whatever perceived 'beef' existed between mm and mesk wouldn't have had any weight in the ruling that mesk "maliciously" forgot to vest mm. seems obvious enough That whole situation would've played out differently. It still hasn't been addressed. That whole thread was colored names blindly sticking up for each other with very little logic being applied to the situation. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Auteur : Voss Date : November 29th, 2020 06:18 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Because our police kidnap and murder us regularly. Y'all get to step out when you get pulled over because police treat you like humans. We have to stay put, literally don't move, put our hands on our steering wheel, and meekly ask permission to grab necessary documents out of our glovebox otherwise we run the risk of getting shot. Literal gun to your head you'd feel the same way. Apparently not in france -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Auteur : Voss Date : November 29th, 2020 06:22 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Once again, I wasn't part of the discussion where there was some ruling made about avatar so idk what you want from me with that tag. If the ask is to turn off colored ranks if you're in any FM game, then someone like MM might as well just be put into some shadow staff because they're in every game. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:27 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Once again, I wasn't part of the discussion where there was some ruling made about avatar so idk what you want from me with that tag. If the ask is to turn off colored ranks if you're in any FM game, then someone like MM might as well just be put into some shadow staff because they're in every game. almost sounds like /volunteering/ to do /staff/ work supersedes someone's /desire/ to partake in a /game/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 29th, 2020 06:27 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm Once again, I wasn't part of the discussion where there was some ruling made about avatar so idk what you want from me with that tag. If the ask is to turn off colored ranks if you're in any FM game, then someone like MM might as well just be put into some shadow staff because they're in every game. The discussion wasn't as relevant as the fact that someone got lynched over it, so it must hold some weight. If you disagree with that premise then address that, don't sidestep it. The solution is irrelevant to that point. The point is that it absolutely affects games. We can get to the solution after we've established that the games are being affected. Do you think red names affect how people perceive the player with the red name? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:29 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm wonder how many ppl who work as fucking janitors cleaning shitters @ the superbowl get pissed off cause they gotta do their job instead of spectate the game if its such a big deal, and u wanna play so bad, /resign/ and /advise/. dont ruin the overall quality of games to cater to the fact you want a red name but still be treated like a standard user. cant have your cake and eat it too -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:32 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm besides, mm was decent enough to add a 2nd chair to his desk so he and deathworlds could rub elbows in the same office doing the same job. surely deathworlds is competent enough to independently run the show if mm wants to "go on a vacation" and hop on an alt and play an sfm, no? and if staff don't circlejerk and swallow eachother's loads daily, then surely if mm is actually wronged in a game, deathworlds would independently see that and act without even knowing mm was on a smurf, right? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 06:33 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm deathworlds is a marshmallow marshall vpn lmfao this is so sad -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Auteur : Voss Date : November 29th, 2020 07:02 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm What about petitioning the next host of the next game played to not allow players with colored names? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 29th, 2020 07:13 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm The discussion wasn't as relevant as the fact that someone got lynched over it, so it must hold some weight. If you disagree with that premise then address that, don't sidestep it. The solution is irrelevant to that point. The point is that it absolutely affects games. We can get to the solution after we've established that the games are being affected. Do you think red names affect how people perceive the player with the red name? ^^^^ this -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 29th, 2020 07:14 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm What about petitioning the next host of the next game played to not allow players with colored names? Why are you sidestepping my questions? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 07:17 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm What about petitioning the next host of the next game played to not allow players with colored names? because the problem isnt colored names as a whole the problem is fm staff -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Auteur : FrostByte Date : November 29th, 2020 07:21 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm it's incredibly frustrating to get non answers every single time I address staff with very specific questions -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 07:22 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm What about petitioning the next host of the next game played to not allow players with colored names? although, it probably WOULD be in the next host's best interest to not let staff play considering if you make a night action mistake involving a member of staff, the precedent is a life banishment from ever hosting again. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 07:26 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm also Voss considering how shady you're being about this topic, im totally not apologetic anymore for griefing ur minecraft house 7 yrs ago -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Auteur : Voss Date : November 29th, 2020 07:36 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm The discussion wasn't as relevant as the fact that someone got lynched over it, so it must hold some weight. If you disagree with that premise then address that, don't sidestep it. The solution is irrelevant to that point. The point is that it absolutely affects games. We can get to the solution after we've established that the games are being affected. Do you think red names affect how people perceive the player with the red name? I could say that I think red names with "Admin" under them MIGHT affect new people in their first couple of games. But I also don't expect new people to be doing anything that might attract a moderation standpoint. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Auteur : Voss Date : November 29th, 2020 07:36 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm also Voss considering how shady you're being about this topic, im totally not apologetic anymore for griefing ur minecraft house 7 yrs ago I've never played minecraft lololol -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 65] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 07:38 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I could say that I think red names with "Admin" under them MIGHT affect new people in their first couple of games. But I also don't expect new people to be doing anything that might attract a moderation standpoint. ignoring people have said avatars change their perceptions/reads on players because u werent part of the convo is like saying trump can still win asinine head-in-sand stance -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 66] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 07:38 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I've never played minecraft lololol who the fuck did i grief -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 67] Auteur : deathworlds Date : November 29th, 2020 07:40 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm deathworlds is a marshmallow marshall vpn lmfao this is so sad Ah yes, the first four years of me being here was just a trial run for when MM eventually joined in his full glory. ffs -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 68] Auteur : Voss Date : November 29th, 2020 07:44 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm although, it probably WOULD be in the next host's best interest to not let staff play considering if you make a night action mistake involving a member of staff, the precedent is a life banishment from ever hosting again. I assume you're talking about Mesk here but I don't see how it directly applies to staff's colors in game, so this is irrelevant. It really seems like you have a problem with MM specifically and FrostByte's problem is actually about staff colors in games. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 69] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 07:46 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I assume you're talking about Mesk here but I don't see how it directly applies to staff's colors in game, so this is irrelevant. It really seems like you have a problem with MM specifically and FrostByte's problem is actually about staff colors in games. lmfao sorry but that's wrong. personally i have no problem with mm. we've had our times but dude doesnt live in my head rent free. frostbyte and i are on the same page. its not about staff colors. it's about administrators actively moderating in game they're active in idk how many times i have to reiterate this -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 70] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 07:47 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm also it was SuperJack i griefed, i think. he used 2 have that doctor who tardis pic. or he did when i griefed him. confused yall cuz ur similar -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 71] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 07:48 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm mesk was done dirty, absolutely. similar topic/issue 4 sure, but its not inherently anti mm. mm just seems to be at the center of the drama -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 72] Auteur : Voss Date : November 29th, 2020 07:54 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm frostbyte and i are on the same page. its not about staff colors. it's about administrators actively moderating in game they're active in I don't think you're on the same page, but whatever. If the problem is admins actively moderating games, I think fm staff is going to put out some formal announcement if they haven't already that that behavior is to be discontinued. And the hiring of deathworlds AND putting up the "help wanted" post is supposed to alleviate this. This was already mentioned. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 73] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 07:58 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I don't think you're on the same page, but whatever. If the problem is admins actively moderating games, I think fm staff is going to put out some formal announcement if they haven't already that that behavior is to be discontinued. And the hiring of deathworlds AND putting up the "help wanted" post is supposed to alleviate this. This was already mentioned. we're not on the same page. we're just quoting eachothers posts and supplying supporting evidence for each other. right. im glad you can determine for us that we're not actively on the same page as we both collaborate off-site about what we're trying to get fixed. you're fosing me instead of actually addressing the issue, and continuing to sidestep frostbyte's reiterations of my questions by not replying to him anymore, but replying to me instead. if this were an sfm i'd be voss'ing your scummy ass so hard right now -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 74] Auteur : Bruno Date : November 29th, 2020 08:00 PM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm and i scumread 2/3 of mafia in the last sfm i played so ima go ahead and trust my reads. you're scum defending mm without actually saying anything in his defense -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 75] Auteur : rumox Date : November 30th, 2020 12:43 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I personally don't have a problem with staff flipping their colour off during FM games. I am not FM staff though so my opinion isn't law. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 76] Auteur : rumox Date : November 30th, 2020 12:44 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm We can take a poll about it? At least to see where everyone is at on it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 77] Auteur : SuperJack Date : November 30th, 2020 02:39 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm also it was SuperJack i griefed, i think. he used 2 have that doctor who tardis pic. or he did when i griefed him. confused yall cuz ur similar Yo u summoned me yah plonker. Sup? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 78] Auteur : yzb25 Date : November 30th, 2020 03:14 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm also Voss considering how shady you're being about this topic, im totally not apologetic anymore for griefing ur minecraft house 7 yrs ago you little shit that was my house! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 79] Auteur : yzb25 Date : November 30th, 2020 03:22 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm I'm gonna make it real big because people keep missing this, which is the entire point of the fucking thread: if avatars can have a subconscious effect on how players will treat, perceive, or read a player, then how could you possibly argue having a colored name, like red, doesnt have a similar result? Voss Marshmallow Marshall Auwt Oberon yzb25 aamirus Kenny rumox That whole situation would've played out differently. It still hasn't been addressed. That whole thread was colored names blindly sticking up for each other with very little logic being applied to the situation. They have an effect, I just don't think it gives the mods an unfair advantage per se. I believe I made my position clear before. Other forms of reputation have a much greater effect on the game like "being widely regarded as a pro", and sometimes being red can backfire if ppl use it to smear you. It's not like being a cop at all, I think that analogy was totally misplaced. If I had to compare, a mod signing for an FM game is a lot more like being a politician who's decided to take public transport with the plebs lmao. But even that analogy massively overstates the class divide. I like anon games for the reasons ppl have stated, but I also like games that aren't anon because ppl's relationships and reptutations add another layer to the analysis. It can get taken too far though, certainly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 80] Auteur : yzb25 Date : November 30th, 2020 03:25 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm They have an effect, I just don't think it gives the mods an unfair advantage per se. I believe I made my position clear before. Other forms of reputation have a much greater effect on the game like "being widely regarded as a pro", and sometimes being red can backfire if ppl use it to smear you. It's not like being a cop at all, I think that analogy was totally misplaced. If I had to compare, a mod signing for an FM game is a lot more like being a politician who's decided to take public transport with the plebs lmao. But even that analogy massively overstates the class divide. I like anon games for the reasons ppl have stated, but I also like games that aren't anon because ppl's relationships and reptutations add another layer to the analysis. It can get taken too far though, certainly. But as was pointed out, cops are different in different countries. Even in the UK I see a copper and I think "fuck fuck" even if I ain't done anything wrong LOL. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 81] Auteur : yzb25 Date : November 30th, 2020 03:29 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm If I had to give an example of red backfiring, I remember many years ago Arrow being a red lead PTB to believe Arrow's bad play "had to be something deeper because they're red and all the reds have their shit together" even tho Arrow as a total noob at FM and was an admin concerned with sc2mafia. It didn't sway other ppl, but it got a vote on the train that lynched him. In PTB's defense, Arrow did flip scum -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 82] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 30th, 2020 03:47 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm They have an effect, I just don't think it gives the mods an unfair advantage per se. I believe I made my position clear before. Other forms of reputation have a much greater effect on the game like "being widely regarded as a pro", and sometimes being red can backfire if ppl use it to smear you. It's not like being a cop at all, I think that analogy was totally misplaced. If I had to compare, a mod signing for an FM game is a lot more like being a politician who's decided to take public transport with the plebs lmao. But even that analogy massively overstates the class divide. I like anon games for the reasons ppl have stated, but I also like games that aren't anon because ppl's relationships and reptutations add another layer to the analysis. It can get taken too far though, certainly. I 100% agree with this. I have never been affected by peoples red/blue/green colour. The only argument as I see it is that they could insinuate you would be breaking rules/getting infracted by playing in a certain way, and while I’ve seen them trying to ‘bring order’ to games, I don’t think I’ve ever seen that abused. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 83] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 30th, 2020 03:48 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm But as was pointed out, cops are different in different countries. Even in the UK I see a copper and I think "fuck fuck" even if I ain't done anything wrong LOL. same but I guess I’m Eastern European and I have the Thief’s blood in my veins :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 84] Auteur : rumox Date : November 30th, 2020 03:50 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm you little shit that was my house! I remember back in 2010 I was playing the beta with some guys from a pro league scene and mentioned in a thread about Minecraft we ran west and set up a base. By heading west I mean we ran for literally 30 minutes while also traversing oceans. Some other guys from the scene joined the server and were so committed to trolling us they also spent 30 minutes or more looking for our base then proceeded to place bedrock everywhere and nuked our builds with TNT. Good times. I became a pariah amongst the fellas for "leaking" our location. "aha went on to smash rumoxs shit and found job already done. tx" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 85] Auteur : Auwt Date : November 30th, 2020 04:28 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm so if mm had been on an anonymous account and mesk didnt know mm was, say, alt named X mesk fucks up night action for X, resulting in X dying how in the fuck could it ever possibly be assumed mesk intentionally fucked over X because mesk happened to know X was mm? lmfao your analogies suck ass stop comparing yourself to police. I'm not comparing myself, I'm comparing the situation actually. The different analogies I addressed depicted quite well the situation. Okay I understand your in depth thought, yet your example also work for a non-staff player. Just replace the name "MM" by "Bruno" and "Mesk" by "Host". And you would see it could also happen. Therefore the only solve to your problem would be to only play full anonymous game, not only staff. I'm not following this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 86] Auteur : Oberon Date : November 30th, 2020 04:58 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm honestly I think this is a non-problem lol -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 87] Auteur : Marshmallow Marshall Date : November 30th, 2020 07:57 AM Title : Re: staff should be anonymous in sfm This post reflects the unanimous stance of FM staff after internal deliberations. About the part of "subconscious bias due to colored names", I'm going to give a clear, unambiguous answer: no. We are not going to stop having colored names in games, and this decision is final. Here's why. Does having a red or purple name affect how people subconsciously view us? Perhaps, to a very small extent. So does having literally every damn attribute. That includes having a signature (people will view you slightly differently if you put hostile posts in your signature or if you put a cute cat picture instead), having a post count (can be used to estimate your experience), having medals (which can inspire respect to newcomers and give a feeling that "this guy is good"; if I may add, it's not something users can willingly manipulate) and as was already mentioned, having an avatar. Does that mean we should forbid these things? The answer is no. It makes no big difference (personality does), and those things are useful and part of forum culture. Same goes for colored names, including staff ones (and I'd even say ESPECIALLY staff ones, since they make it obvious who's in charge of moderation and where). And even then, we give out colored names for FM Champions, aka ladder winners. People don't go and scream it "subconsciously biases them", come on. Literally EVERY MAFIA SITE has colored names for their staff, by the way, and nobody is "treating them differently because they have a colored name". Also, remember that if staff members actually abuse their power, they are to be reported; nothing changed here. Topic closed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-