Spy is too strong.

[MissingNo]

Ok, lets look at the powers of a spy.

1) see night chat

2) see who mafia targets, and who mafia visits

3) see pm's

I argue that spy is far too strong. When I get spy, its just too easy.

It is powers 2 and 3 that make him crazy good. Then, power 1 is also amazing if ppl are noobs and arnt careful what they say in night chat. It is even decent simply cuz mafia cant strategize as well.

2 is what makes him so powerful, though, and 3 is the clincher.

When there are 2 visiting roles (such as BM, framer, consig, consort) along with the gf (which is pretty often), the spy learns 2 people every night who are not mafia members. He can also learn who is invulnerable at night (which is useful for finding sks and arson) based on if the guy mafia attacked is still alive.

Spy can potentially learn 6 people are non-mafia by day 4 as well as maybe finding sk or someone.


Then power 3 is the clincher. Spy has the easiest time of all roles proving who he is via the pm test. This makes it extremely easy for him to deliver his info and have it be believed. This then adds another person to the "non-mafia" list in someone elses mind (since the spy is now cleared).


----------------------------------------------------------------------


On the other hand, if mafia gets mafioso and janitor then spy is pretty weak. Either way, it is a pretty broken role in how good it can be and how lackluster it can be.

[SayGen]

I like spy, and have never had one ruin my mafia experience. Vet is far more powerful, esp with numbers.
A 2nd spy is only as good as the 1st. A vet in multipuls inreases towns power exponentially.

I do get what ur saying, when I'm spy as Town my win rate does seem to go up- but to be honest, I odn't have those numbers available to me.

[creedkingsx]

Ok, lets look at the powers of a spy.

1) see night chat

2) see who mafia targets, and who mafia visits

3) see pm's


All of which can be edited in the role options.

[MissingNo]

All of which can be edited in the role options.

But there are a couple problems with that.

1) Spy power is determined after mafia roles are dealt. As I said before, framer+bm'er makes for a very powerful spy while mafioso+janitor does not. So, changing the option before you know doesn't help anything.

2) nobody seems to touch the spy options. This post also serves the purpose of informing and persuading of how powerful spy is so that maybe people will touch the spy option.

[cookies4you]

The Spy's potential isn't dependent on the power of the Mafia, but rather, the intelligence of the players. A group of intelligent Mafia can easily fool and manipulate an unsuspecting Spy.

Against an intelligent Disguiser, a confirmed Spy becomes the perfect victim. Not only can he claim to be blackmailed, but he can also reinforce his role by utilizing the Mafia.

Basically, the Spy is only powerful if the Mafia allows him to be. A smart team would confirm whether a Spy exists before they start talking. This makes the Spy the ultimate noob-trap, and nothing more.

[Lysergic]

Creed and I must really be the only two people on the planet that thing that Spy is just right.

I understand what you're saying with the role options. However, Spy doesn't get rolled often enough to be really game breaking, most Spy players tend to rely on night chat rather than confirming non-Mafia members, and all of the above arguments rely on the Spy being alive for most of the game.

It's a good point that Spy can be extremely powerful in the right hands (obviously not cookie's hands). However, so can many other roles - Escort being a prime example (can find any killing role and prevent Mafia kills once GF is dead). The fact of the matter is that Spy is only game breaking is the game is broken when Spy is played. Since most people don't seem to understand how to correctly play the role, it ends up being used for support (akin to a vote-less Mayor) rather than actively finding scum.

[EagleMan]

Lots of roles are powerful if you enable everything.

Also, a Janitor that tries to sanitize a fellow Mafia can really mess up your strategy of clearing people. A Witch or a Bus Driver can also mess things up.

[ThatAwesomeDude]

The spy can be excluded from randoms and I think that should be enough for you. Since that option is on by default, most games you play have no chance of having a spy in them.

[LeaD]

Lol.. Lets see the counterarguments:
1: Anytime spy is possible i immediately give out false information in night chat, also saying stuff not too consp. about votes is also good (omg u idiot why did u vote guilty? nobody of the maf team act. voted guilty) - also u can simply tell your teammates what to do by using your ability on sb telling them : dude on the maf list (1-2-3) use your ability on the person i vote next.
2. Janitor always a fun role - visit own teammembers, make spy believe maf has a consig, claiming that the visited maf members are clear
3. i don't really get why seeing pm's is any good, same stuff as night chat. There are quite a few roles that can ascertain their role easily (mayor bd vigi jailor - although jailor not recommended)

spy is fine

[Elixir]

The spy can be excluded from randoms.

^^

This was put in to quell the spy argument.

There are good advocates for and against.

[Lysergic]

3. i don't really get why seeing pm's is any good

Seeing PMs isn't useful for finding Mafia (unless they're retarded), but rather for finding town.

[creedkingsx]

3. i don't really get why seeing pm's is any good, same stuff as night chat. There are quite a few roles that can ascertain their role easily (mayor bd vigi jailor - although jailor not recommended)

spy is fine

Specifically, spy is one of 2 roles that can absolutely prove itself in an instant, along with mayor. Any other role that can provide evidence can always be questioned.

[Liquidator]

IMO Spy is the single best role in the game. And I don't mean the most powerful. I mean it's the best. It's great. Such a well-balanced role...and mainly due to power #2 that TC listed. Seeing who BMer, Framer, Consort, or Consig visits is great.

[RookRanger]

RR fav tactics to find a spy:
1) use other players names in mafia chat e.g Gf uses the inves name
2) make a fulse plan e.g say u will claim doc then a spy will say in chat next day about what maf said
3) In a pm write a nasty messeage about the spy if he reacts in chat then u hav found 1
Hope this info helps 8)

[MissingNo]

The Spy's potential isn't dependent on the power of the Mafia, but rather, the intelligence of the players. A group of intelligent Mafia can easily fool and manipulate an unsuspecting Spy.

Against an intelligent Disguiser, a confirmed Spy becomes the perfect victim. Not only can he claim to be blackmailed, but he can also reinforce his role by utilizing the Mafia.

Basically, the Spy is only powerful if the Mafia allows him to be. A smart team would confirm whether a Spy exists before they start talking. This makes the Spy the ultimate noob-trap, and nothing more.

As Lysergic alluded to, you clearly don't understand how to use the spy.


The spy can be excluded from randoms and I think that should be enough for you. Since that option is on by default, most games you play have no chance of having a spy in them.

I didn't know that but that is comforting.

[Burnteskimo IIl.]

Specifically, spy is one of 2 roles that can absolutely prove itself in an instant, along with mayor. Any other role that can provide evidence can always be questioned.

THATS IF U HAV READ PMS ON.

Don't even know why DarkRev aded that into game. OH

same reson he added in that racist shit with jews. cuz he has a I WANT TO HUG A PONY NON-SEXUALLY sized brain nuff said pz

[Burnteskimo IIl.]

spy reeding pm is completly against all of wut MAFIA is.

hopin its removed in 1.5

[EagleMan]

and what is Mafia so I may be enlightened as to what the PM reading is diametrically opposed to?

[Lysergic]

and what is Mafia so I may be enlightened as to what the PM reading is diametrically opposed to?

I actually kind of agree on this one. The point of Mafia is uninformed majority vs. informed minority. The more town roles that can prove themselves 100% (like Spy via PM checks) the further away we stray from the true point of the game

[whaleshark]

I like spy, and have never had one damage my mafia encounter. Vet is far more highly effective, esp with statistics.
A 2nd spy is only as excellent as the 1st. A vet in multipuls inreases areas energy significantly.

[Pokemon Trainer Red]

The spy in mafia should have a mascot.
4301
Without the knife of course :)

[LeaD]

besides, if u want to cry about a role, cry about jailor
most OP role possible in sc2 mafia

[Cryptonic]

besides, if u want to cry about a role, cry about jailor
most OP role possible in sc2 mafia

Yes, we definitely need more topics about this pls.

[Cryptonic]

I miss when spy used to be able to commicate with masons.
I think they should've at least retained the ability to hear masons :P

[Lysergic]

I miss when spy used to be able to commicate with masons.
I think they should've at least retained the ability to hear masons :P

So that the Masons can get 3+ confirmed town by saying their name in chat?

Seems a bit easy / cheap.

[Cryptonic]

So that the Masons can get 3+ confirmed town by saying their name in chat?

Seems a bit easy / cheap.

Yea, I completely understand why this option was removed, but those were fun days :P

[Fallacy]

It's this capacity to reach an otherwise unaccessible large spectrum of information that defines the essence of the role.

[Cryptonic]

It's this capacity to reach an otherwise unaccessible large spectrum of information that defines the essence of the role.

The magnitude of your vocabulary convinces the reader of the legitimacy of the condition you have acquainted in this topic.

[Burnteskimo IIl.]

I actually kind of agree on this one. The point of Mafia is uninformed majority vs. informed minority. The more town roles that can prove themselves 100% (like Spy via PM checks) the further away we stray from the true point of the game
ty this is y u dserve ur modfag postion.

[Liquidator]

There is nothing wrong with Spy. It's not as if every setup has both a Spy and a Mayor. Spy is a very unique role and can make the game interesting. I don't want to turn him into another clone of the other townspeople.