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Forum Mafia GM
June 24th, 2012, 05:43 AM
Good morning, rise and shine vault-dwellers, wake up and greet the next day of the rest of your lives!


I have been contacted by our dear new friends at the NCR and they've been complaining that none of y'all have been responding to their hails. In fact, I aint heard a peep out of ya! You know that Intercommy-thing on the wall? Speak near that once in a while, folks!


Anyway, an NCR column is currently on its way.


This is Roxy with Galaxy Radio, making your spurs jingle, jangle jingle...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RcJLOl1nPk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RcJLOl1nPk)

Heihachi
June 24th, 2012, 06:11 AM
Day 1 you will have to hit the ground running. No night actions on night 0 does not give you a free pass. This is mafia at its most intense, and only the strong will survive for the final showdown on the surface. Calculate your odds of surveil, plan for the long-term, play hard and fast.

I claim Citizen.

Why am I claiming so early? A few reasons.
This way, no one else really needs to roleclaim and fight over the votes.
By claiming citizen, the NCR roles shouldn't have to waste an invest day on me.
It's a confirmed role in the Role List. Some of you may also be citizens. I asked and NCR/Any's can be citizens as well. The main reason I claimed was to get voted.
Basically I want Vault 9 to have a strong influence in the later game. I am pushing for votes on me to make me the 2-shot vigilante. I promise not to use those shots until we get released from the vault.

You may say "But how can we trust you?" How can you trust anyone? I know it's hard to vote to give someone else a gun, but if you do, then I won't use it till we're outside for a couple reasons.

- Telling me that so and so is 'confirmed scum' isn't grounds for a nightkill by me. you can go ahead and tell everyone your findings if you wish, but i won't kill anyone.

- I would rather use it on people outside our vault. Hopefully our little group can bind together and be a proactive and powerful team on the outside. (okay, i know that a few of us aren't on the same 'team' but you know what i mean)

- Wouldn't you like to live till day 4? It really sucks when you join a big game like this that comes around once every 2 months and you die on night 2. I also know you'd all rather live to see what happens outside the vault, and who died/lived and how they worked in their vault.


Others may promise the same thing but I did it first so fuck em. just fuck em.
Any feedback is appreciated. If you decide you can't trust me/don't vote me. then whatever. roleclaim wasted. and we can go on with our lives.

Lando
June 24th, 2012, 07:56 AM
And so it begins.

Hello, I'm Lando. Pleased to meet you again.

The night was long and we had plenty of time to prepare for this day. I'd like you to share your thoughts on our current situation and how we should proceed through the following days.

I'll start with mine:

About Vaults in general (mostly speculations)
Judging by the size of our Vault there should be around seven Vaults all together. I think that all of those play a different role in the infrastructure of Vault-Tec. While we are in some kind of Armory others may live in facilities designed for overall control of the infrastructure, infirmary, scientific experiments, supply production, recycling and whatnot. They will probably have other kinds of goodies according the purpose of their Vault, i.e. some kind of terminal/tracking device to check on others (Detective/Lookout), autopsying tools (Coroner/Mortician), psychic abilities (Dreamer/Gypsy Lady), communication tools (Architect) and so on. This might have been implemented to give dedicated Citizens something to do at night.


About our Vault specifically
The RP suggests that we have evil/killing Neutrals and/or Mafia among us. But they are unable to kill without using the tools distributed here - which is good for us. We should make a summary of everything that happens in our Vault in order to publish it after we make our escape and are reunited with the other players. Keeping the things that happened here hidden will most likely only benefit the Mafia. If there is Mafia in our midst (and I expect it to be the case considering the role distribution of the FMXIII roles list), they will have shared what happened in our Vault long before us. So revealing what occurred in here after the escape help the rest of the town to catch up information wise. Only if we manage to find all scum and kill it in time, we will have the option to keep what happened in here to us. But this is very, very unlikely as we don't know anything specific about their numbers.


Remarks about Gifts
TWO-SHOT VIGILANTE GUN:
It got two shots which corresponds exactly with the number of night actions that can be taken in the Vault.
In my opinion it's sort of the replacement for the day lynch. To prevent abuse I suggest to direct the shots by voting for a target at day (voting to not shoot IS an option and is what will most likely happen). I suggest to only shoot a specific target if the absolute majority chooses to.
On another note: If no player gets "hammered" no gun will be given out. So if you are paralyzed by distrust just vote nobody to wield that gun.
Good targets for reception: Citizens/Mayor/roles with charges (Spy/Watchman/...)/minor roles (Mason Enforcer/Journalist/...)

VETERAN'S ASSAULT RIFLE:
I gotta admit that I'm not the greatest fan of the Veteran as a role as he can backfire on Town quite hard. But the protection given out by the threat of this rifle, when known to others, is indeed something favorable.
Good targets for reception: Generally important roles to scare away scum from visiting them
In the wrong hands: Gives scum an implicit protection...

GUNSMITH:
Trust is not that big of an issue here. If the Gunsmith's ability falls into the wrong hands we have to deal with an additional kpn on the wrong side if we do nothing. Therefor I think it should be public knowledge who the Gunsmith is. That way we, with the remainder of the players after the escape, could direct the given out guns in the day chat and do not have to worry about scum getting the guns. We should watch out for the Ghost and Jester going for this - I can see them not following in order to get killed/lynched.
Small bonus: Ninja wins with Town but not with Mafia/killing Neutrals. Giving him the opportunity to copy the Gunsmith ability might come in handy.
Major drawback: Witch can control the guns. A Detective/Lookout on the Gunsmith should be helpful.
Best target: the Citizen from the roles list

The last two goods are given out hidden, but I think it's in our best interest to have them revealed as it prevents backfiring/abuse.

Plans for the coming days
We should discuss today how we plan to distribute the goods and not just go with the flow. Maybe find some volunteers for the different gifts? Anyway I'm thrilled to here your opinion on how we should proceed.



Day 1 you will have to hit the ground running. No night actions on night 0 does not give you a free pass. This is mafia at its most intense, and only the strong will survive for the final showdown on the surface. Calculate your odds of surveil, plan for the long-term, play hard and fast.

I claim Citizen.

Why am I claiming so early? A few reasons.
This way, no one else really needs to roleclaim and fight over the votes.
Why is that? Should the Citizen get all the gifts in your opinion? But I appreciate the initiative of one Citizen claiming as I'd like him to make guns for town.
By claiming citizen, the NCR roles shouldn't have to waste an invest day on me.
If they have to waste a night action on you depends mostly on your behavior and not on your claim.
It's a confirmed role in the Role List. Some of you may also be citizens. I asked and NCR/Any's can be citizens as well. The main reason I claimed was to get voted.
I agree that a Citizen is a fine target for the Vigilante gun as he does not have to choose between night action. But other roles are fine, too.
Basically I want Vault 9 to have a strong influence in the later game. I am pushing for votes on me to make me the 2-shot vigilante. I promise not to use those shots until we get released from the vault.
What do you want to do to give Vault 9 a strong footing in the later game? Why do you want the 2-shot Vigilante and not the Gunsmith?

You may say "But how can we trust you?" How can you trust anyone? I know it's hard to vote to give someone else a gun, but if you do, then I won't use it till we're outside for a couple reasons.

- Telling me that so and so is 'confirmed scum' isn't grounds for a nightkill by me. you can go ahead and tell everyone your findings if you wish, but i won't kill anyone.

- I would rather use it on people outside our vault. Hopefully our little group can bind together and be a proactive and powerful team on the outside. (okay, i know that a few of us aren't on the same 'team' but you know what i mean)

- Wouldn't you like to live till day 4? It really sucks when you join a big game like this that comes around once every 2 months and you die on night 2. I also know you'd all rather live to see what happens outside the vault, and who died/lived and how they worked in their vault.
Why won't you consider the option to shoot someone no matter what? If somebody comes out with information on a suspect, we pressure the suspect and he breaks to the pressure. Won't this be a great opportunity to use one of the shoots?
On another note it sounds like you don't want to use it here as it will be easy to backtrack. While reunited with the other players anyone could have fired that shot.
And why are you happily trusting everybody in here? There even was talk about enemy agents.


Others may promise the same thing but I did it first so fuck em. just fuck em.
Any feedback is appreciated. If you decide you can't trust me/don't vote me. then whatever. roleclaim wasted. and we can go on with our lives.
I don't think your claim is wasted at all. But I do think you are kinda suspicious.
My comments in yellow.

Fluttershy
June 24th, 2012, 10:27 AM
My only two cents for what has been said is that I don't want to receive guns or anything along those lines

Fluttershy
June 24th, 2012, 12:03 PM
Let me also say that I'm on my phone so it might look like I'm lurking

Roger
June 24th, 2012, 12:12 PM
Well, only 3 posts so far, but the first 2 realy are going down to buisness.

I realy have no idea how Heihanchi thinks that his claim will make anyone want to give him the gun. firstly, as a citizen, you have zero way of proving yourself as citizen. that realy takes away from the whole point of "giving the gun to a confirmed town role". I could at very least partialy buy a "we are guaranteed to have at least one citizen, so if there are no other claims, I am confirmed town." however, your practicaly setting yourself up for a pussy out by saying...


Some of you may also be citizens. I asked and NCR/Any's can be citizens as well. The main reason I claimed was to get voted.

the horrors don't end there. by saying you have been asking about simple citizen rules that are clearly shown in the role list section also imply's that you have been asking other questions to prepare for a fakeclaim.

Basically I want Vault 9 to have a strong influence in the later game. I am pushing for votes on me to make me the 2-shot vigilante. I promise not to use those shots until we get released from the vault.

okay, so you want Vault 9 to become a strong influence in the late game? you are completely ignoring the fact that not everyone here is NCR, and we may possibly have some mafias/killers. so your willing to forsake the best interests of your faction in order for a bunch of random anys? doesn't make any sence... unless your Cult Leader! fdaslkfdslakdl;kgdhdga;lhalkdhggdshahdsglhdgksdskg adfjdfklakds;

I realy can't be bothered to go on, but there is no way I'm voting for a citizen claimer who has an extreamly flawed claim and promises to be an exreamly passive gun wielder. I am of the opinion that the person who we can be most sure of being town should get the gun, even if them may have night actions.

out of time for now. more later.

Heihachi
June 24th, 2012, 12:22 PM
Why is that? Should the Citizen get all the gifts in your opinion? But I appreciate the initiative of one Citizen claiming as I'd like him to make guns for town.

Not saying that, in actuality, the day 2 vote should go to a PR maybe. So the mafia will shy away from them. On a side note, I think if Fluttershy manages to get veteran, then a lot of people will die outside the vault.

I agree that a Citizen is a fine target for the Vigilante gun as he does not have to choose between night action. But other roles are fine, too.

See below (i answered these from bottom to top, sorry. it's just easier to do in the reply box)

What do you want to do to give Vault 9 a strong footing in the later game? Why do you want the 2-shot Vigilante and not the Gunsmith?

Actually, I would prefer gunsmith, as you said, it's a nice boost to a citizen and I'd love to start making guns for the town. Hopefully we can get a better foothold of who people are by that time. I'm only wary of the chance that the vig will go wild. As long as we give it to someone responsible, then I'm fine with that decision.

Why won't you consider the option to shoot someone no matter what? If somebody comes out with information on a suspect, we pressure the suspect and he breaks to the pressure. Won't this be a great opportunity to use one of the shoots?
On another note it sounds like you don't want to use it here as it will be easy to backtrack. While reunited with the other players anyone could have fired that shot.
And why are you happily trusting everybody in here? There even was talk about enemy agents.

On the contrary, I can't trust everyone here. That's why I wanted to have the gun so at night tonight, if we chose someone else I didn't want someone random to die. Maybe I was being irrational, I'm sure whoever gets the gun won't just fire around randomly and say "oops, he seemed kinda scummy" tomorrow. especially because we can't do anything once they have the gun.
And I mean...yea. I would consider shooting someone if good evidence came up against them and a majority or more decided for it. I just wanted people to know I wouldn't just randomly fire the gun. But the same could be said for all people who are vying for the gun.

Han
June 24th, 2012, 01:19 PM
is giving a gun a good idea?

I was thinking about a mass claim. do you think that's a good idea, here? I'd like to get to grips with this as soon as possible. Also, consider me a candidate for voting today but i think that giving anyone a gun is an iffy idea.

Han
June 24th, 2012, 01:29 PM
I like how HeiHachi is basically saying "im cit trust me guys"
we dont know how many non-town there are
since there is no lynch giving the wrong person a gun could be fatal



The night was long and we had plenty of time to prepare for this day.


I find this suspicious.

Han
June 24th, 2012, 02:16 PM
I get the impression that most other vaults have either no ability or are just normal lynch vaults. Having seven vaults with three abilities each to give out would be bad.

Han
June 24th, 2012, 02:24 PM
Lando a mass role claim would be good if we were all town, we could keep it all to ourselves. but mafia are here also and this changes everything. At the moment there is no way of killing in here so why change that? Why risk giving the bad guys the ability to kill?

IF anyone i'd say we give it to fluttershy because the kind of person who is trying to get a gun is just the kind of person i don't feel comfortable giving one to.

Han
June 24th, 2012, 02:25 PM
If no gets a majority/is hammered what happens?

Lando
June 24th, 2012, 02:28 PM
is giving a gun a good idea?

I was thinking about a mass claim. do you think that's a good idea, here? I'd like to get to grips with this as soon as possible. Also, consider me a candidate for voting today but i think that giving anyone a gun is an iffy idea.
The chances for the gun to get into the hands of Town should be the highest overall. And as we know who got the gun, the wielder can't go full retard. I really think we should direct the gun during the day - which makes the gun wielder nothing but a tool. And I think it is a useful tool. So why throw it away?
I don't think a mass claim is a good idea at all. The game won't end after 3 days and we don't want all important PRs exposed when the main act begins. But if you think it would be a good idea then please tell me what makes you think so.



The night was long and we had plenty of time to prepare for this day.
I find this suspicious.
Did you not have time? I was expecting you and all other players in this vault to prepare for today. I did as you can see and I'm hoping you did the same.


I get the impression that most other vaults have either no ability or are just normal lynch vaults. Having seven vaults with three abilities each to give out would be bad.
Why would it be so bad? Actually a lot of Hidden NCR might be Citizens.


I really think we should compile a list of the people volunteering for each of the gifts. It's much more subtle than a mass role-claim and allows WIFOM.
Can we agree on that or do you just want to go with the flow? That list in itself gives subtle information about the members of the Vault and I think we want to get to know each other.

Forum Mafia GM
June 24th, 2012, 02:29 PM
If no gets a majority/is hammered what happens?

No gun will be given out.
Yayap edit: The gun will be given to the radio station. >: )

In a secret ballot a majority will not need to be reached, however.

Roger
June 24th, 2012, 02:43 PM
Okay, my opinions.

1) Not giving out the vigilante gun is a realy bad move. Unless the gun goes to a total retard or the wastelander, we can control that person. Not giving the gun because we know we have a wastelander is not enough for no gun.

2) As said above, it isn't as bad as you may think if an evil-neutral or mafia gets the gun/gunsmith tools. We can just direct what they do, and if they stray, make sure they get lynched D4.

3) The reason I'm not sure about Fluttershy is that not wanting the gun is simply WIFOM. Fluttershy, why are you comfortable with the gun possibly going to the wastelander, but not with it going to you, even though you can be 100% that you getting the gun will go towards helping your allignment?

4) Gunsmith tools and vigilante gun should go to different people. Giving the assult riffle and the gun to the same person is a possibility.

Roger
June 24th, 2012, 02:50 PM
and I'll say it now. I do want the gun because I know without any doubt that I am town and that I will not abuse the weapons. however, you guys should also be using the same logic:p

Lando
June 24th, 2012, 03:25 PM
Having the ones receiving the Vigilante gun and Gunsmith ability revealed is pretty bad because of the Witch. But the Witch doesn't share a night chat with anyone unless she gets culted. So when we rejoin the other players we should just reveal that we have some bullets and a Gunsmith left to direct, but not their identities. Of course they should be revealed if our members start dying off at an alarming rate.
This should work as long as no Witch is in our Vault.

Heihachi
June 24th, 2012, 03:36 PM
I have to agree with Roger on the gun dilemma. We should try to decide who we're going to give it to pretty soon. The day is half over and we need 4 votes to give a gun. I said earlier that I wanted the gun, and this is still true, but I'd be willing to give it to someone as long as they are responsible. Not doing anything is what gives mafia an advantage.

I like how HeiHachi is basically saying "im cit trust me guys"
Can you think of a better solution? There are no confirmed town right now.
Anyway, I'd be fine with letting Roger have the vigilante gun as of now. I just want it to be handled responsibly and not get shot up tonight.

Han
June 24th, 2012, 04:41 PM
Roger seems like a good choice, I just didnt trust the way you jumped straight in like that

Lando
June 24th, 2012, 04:47 PM
Sooo, let's fire up that list. I'd like to volunteer for the Vigilante gun or the Veteran's AR.
Anyone else for the latter two?

Volunteers for gifts

TWO-SHOT VIGILANTE GUN:
Heihachi
Han
Roger
Lando

VETERAN'S ASSAULT RIFLE:
Lando

GUNSMITH:
Heihachi

Han
June 24th, 2012, 04:55 PM
I'll sign up for everything, because I'm the only one I can completely trust. I'd like everyone who gets elected for anything to release a statement on what they plan to do/not do with their power. -vote Roger for now.

Han
June 24th, 2012, 04:56 PM
I wonder how many of us here are scum. Moar role claims tomorrow I hope

Vader
June 24th, 2012, 05:08 PM
Vader, reporting in.


My only two cents for what has been said is that I don't want to receive guns or anything along those lines

Two implications from this statement:
1. You're a PR who needs to use your action every night.
2. You're using some sort of WIFOM to disguise your true intentions of actually receiving the gun.

Whatever the case, I am personally against Fluttershy getting anything if he so says. Nothing would come out of "forcing" him to use the item.

The whole thing with the "It's okay if scum gets the vigilante gun because we can keep an eye on him and direct the kills." Unless we're planning to fire both shots in the Vault, which, if someone wants to clarify whether we can or not, I see it as a dangerous threat no matter how you roll it. Especially when we're combined, you won't be able to tell whether there really was a "doctor heal" or "bus driving." Just... so many ways it can go wrong. Not to mention a potential cult in conjunction with directing the vigilante gun during day... just... rawr.

Of course, I'm not saying we shouldn't give out the vigilante gun at all. Yet. It's just the whole issue with directing it in day chat will be complete chaos and has me irritated.

Fluttershy
June 24th, 2012, 05:47 PM
I'm a Sheriff. The reason I'm revealing is because there are 4 kinds of sheriff. IDK which one I an yet but its a 50/50 chance I'm useless.

Lando
June 24th, 2012, 05:59 PM
The whole thing with the "It's okay if scum gets the vigilante gun because we can keep an eye on him and direct the kills." Unless we're planning to fire both shots in the Vault, which, if someone wants to clarify whether we can or not, I see it as a dangerous threat no matter how you roll it. Especially when we're combined, you won't be able to tell whether there really was a "doctor heal" or "bus driving." Just... so many ways it can go wrong. Not to mention a potential cult in conjunction with directing the vigilante gun during day... just... rawr.

Of course, I'm not saying we shouldn't give out the vigilante gun at all. Yet. It's just the whole issue with directing it in day chat will be complete chaos and has me irritated.
Hooray, our Dark Lord showed up.
I don't see us firing both shots in the Vault. At max one will be shot, if we see a major slip or get some convincing evidence.
I'd still like to make it the condition for receiving the gun that all shots will be directed through day chat. I really don't want somebody to get away with saying he derped. If the things mentioned (heal, driving) occur, we'll have either a connection - either both guilty if we find one of them guilty or we will have conflicting statements and know that one of them is lying. This is quite valuable information in my opinion.
How is the Cult a problem? If the gun wielder fails to follow we can lynch him. If he has an excuse it will practically always incriminate somebody.
And if we really see it doesn't work out or the wielder is cleared, we can just drop the condition. But I really doubt that we can't manage these problems.
Another point is, we know who the gun wielder is and can make him take the consequences of his actions.

If Roger agrees to the condition, I'll consider to vote him.

I'd really like to hear more of your thoughts on this. Everybody seems really fixated on the Vigilante gun. Share your thoughts on the other items and how we should distribute them.

I'll update the volunteers later when I hear more from the others on what they would like to go for.

Just saw Fluttershy's post. Why did you claim? Because of a chance that you are like a Citizen? I see no reason to do it like you did. Please tell me why you choose to "reveal" in depth.

Vader
June 24th, 2012, 06:36 PM
I'd still like to make it the condition for receiving the gun that all shots will be directed through day chat. I really don't want somebody to get away with saying he derped. If the things mentioned (heal, driving) occur, we'll have either a connection - either both guilty if we find one of them guilty or we will have conflicting statements and know that one of them is lying. This is quite valuable information in my opinion.
How is the Cult a problem? If the gun wielder fails to follow we can lynch him. If he has an excuse it will practically always incriminate somebody.
And if we really see it doesn't work out or the wielder is cleared, we can just drop the condition. But I really doubt that we can't manage these problems.
Another point is, we know who the gun wielder is and can make him take the consequences of his actions.

I'd really like to hear more of your thoughts on this. Everybody seems really fixated on the Vigilante gun. Share your thoughts on the other items and how we should distribute them.

The problem is, we don't know when "our" vigilante shot will be fired. If scum deems it necessary, they may very well shoot it at, well, now at Fluttershy who just claimed Sheriff. We have no way of checking if that shot was fired from our gun, or potential other guns from a real vigilante or the Mafia team who didn't get a gun from our Vault but passed the message to their teammate who might possibly have a gun from another vault, thus framing our vigilante gun receiver.

If the witch targets someone with a given vigilante gun, is there any way for her to use this gun? Or can witches only target the primary ability?

It's a huge setup. There are just so many various ways everything can be messed up. As I'm sure you're all aware by now, I am an extremely conservative player and am wary of all things that aren't foolproof.

The Veteran rifle is the only thing I have even slightly considered having, and even then, it's not much. Mafia has a tendency of taking out extremely pro town players early on, so I would only feel safe if the rifle went to a highly outspoken player. If he's scum, there's more room for him to slip. And if he's pro town, he'll have implicit protection.

As for the gunsmith, I'm not too worried about this. This one does come with a feedback message, and is relatively easy to track. I'm more lax about whom I can give this smith to.

Lando
June 24th, 2012, 06:53 PM
Question is answered in Vault FAQ:
6. Witching the one with the Vigilante gun will force him to use it? Or only if he chose to use it anyway. What if it is a Citizen holding the gun, but not wanting to shoot?
Witching someone with the Vigilante gun will make him use it, overriding all other actions.

No risks most often bring little to no rewards. I try to find the spot where we get the greatest ratio of reward to risk.

Should I put you on the list then? For the AR that is, didn't sound like you are interested in the Gunsmith ability.

Fluttershy
June 24th, 2012, 07:33 PM
I'm a noob when it come to fm. My role is potentially useless. And I want input on how to play a role like this. What if everyone comes up the opposite of what they are? I have never played a game of this size and complexity so I feel I would benefit from revealing and getting input from the town.

Roger
June 24th, 2012, 07:54 PM
if you do give me the vigilante gun, here are my sacred vows

1) I will not shoot anyone inside this vault tonight or tommoro, unless we have the majority of people here are voting for the death of that said person.

2) I will not go rouge and start shooting people unless there is general consensus that that person needs to die. While the distibution of the weapons should be kept secret in case of witches, we can alert the town of a vigilante gun, so direction of the gun shouldn't be an issue. no matter who they go to, the weapons from vault 9 need to be used as public tools, not the discretion of individuals.

3) Unless there is strong evidence pointing at a witch in this vault, I shall alert you that I plan to use the gun by saying "I like trains". If for some reason, new evidence comes to light pointing at the suspected person possibly not being scum, I shall cancel my kill decision by using the word "Thrusting". If I believe that we are safe from mafia members who may be in this vault, I will end my "I like trains" post with the letter of the alphabet = to 2 + the target persons position on the rolelist. If the personís location on the rolelist is above 24, then I will add 2 periods on to the end of the post and repeat the rolelist. So for example if we plan to shoot the 2nd player on the rolelist, my "I like trains" post would end with a D (2+2=4, D=4th letter). If we plan to shoot player 30, I would have two periods on the end of my post, and I would end with the letter F (30-26+2=6, 6th letter of the alphabet = F). you guys can also use the same code to advise me of who you think is the best kill choice.

If you have any question or concerns, ask. hope I made the code clear enough:).

Roger
June 24th, 2012, 08:06 PM
Fluttershy, claiming sheriff D1 with nothing to give us at all is a poor move. at least Heihanchi had some purpose to his claim(even if it had highly flawed logic and could be false), while I don't see the purpose at all for claiming sheriff with zero information and little way to prove your claim. my mind feels a little frazzled right now, but I can't see what you have to gain. investigate a few people. if you get the varied results, bingo. your useful, and can give us info. if you keep getting the same result over and over, then you consider claiming. however, saying you don't want the gun then claiming sheriff is not benefiting town in any way, and could potentially hurt us if you are indeed a sane/insane sheriff.

this might be my last post for today. however, I'll make sure to post some more tomorrow.

Heihachi
June 24th, 2012, 09:23 PM
even if it had highly flawed logic and could be false

No! It was perfect mostly.
Roger promises to be responsible with the gun. I like this. Can't be positive that he's town, but we're going to have to make some risks instead of live in fear that maybe possibly there is a witch.

I also find it intriguing how different people want different items. Some people are leaning toward the rifle and some want the gun more. I think that the same person shouldn't get more than one item, if there's a mafia in the vault (probable) they'll just report that a person has both a gun and is a gunsmith, making them a good target.
Not sure why fluttershy claimed..i would say give her the veteran rifle but i dont know if it would be worth it...considering shes new.

Tony Romo, wake the fuck up.

Vader
June 24th, 2012, 09:31 PM
Question is answered in Vault FAQ:


Lol, of course, the only place I missed. I checked through all seven hundred thousand regular FAQ questions and didn't find it there. Rawr.

Fluttershy, if you find out you you do get both suspicious and not suspicious results, you just check someone you're almost 100% sure is guaranteed town and see which way they flip. Like a mayor or something.

Roger, I don't want to sound mean. But your word vows aren't exactly saying much... Your vows, as broken down (refer to the vow post):
1. If you shoot in the vault, we'd know. There's no way a real vigilante would shoot in the vault this early in the game, unless you shoot first. So you're forced into not shooting if the people in the vault don't wish it so. Or else you'd be in deep trouble. So this vow was implied even if you didn't say anything.
2. Once we're out of the vault, we can't check this guarantee, that you won't fire unless upon agreement. Even if you shoot, you can just say the bullet didn't come out of your gun. And then we'd have no way of knowing.
3. As for conveying the target through code to only the vault members, I'm a bit against this. Especially if there's a Mafia member in here, all the Mafia would know whom you're shooting but only 5 townies max will know. I'd be more comfortable discussing the target with the entire town. You don't have to reveal you have the vigilante gun. But I'd be more comfortable with you taking the target that all of town agrees on. Some WIFOM would be preferable, as in saying something like "Yeah, I just deciphered the code from the person in our vault with the vigilante gun and he says he will shoot..." Something along those lines.

A reminder. We only have 24 hours for day. As of right now, it would seem like no one's going to get the gun. I do somewhat trust Roger however, so I guess my vote will go to him.


-vote Roger for vigilante gun

Romo
June 24th, 2012, 10:03 PM
It's been a busy day today for me. I apologize in advance for not really being able to contribute much to the discussion. Calls and emails are coming in, and I don't have the time to write essays or concoct elaborate posts with compelling arguments or lies at this point

However, I think Fluttershy's role claim as the Sheriff is extremely suspicious.

First off, the Sheriff would never claim this early because he would become a prime target for people. Anyone with enough experience with sc2mafia would know that.

Second, Claiming so early with no conclusive proof whatsoever makes it that there is no way to back up the Sheriff claim. I think fluttershy is probably on one of the sides of the mafia teams and is trying to pretend to be a new player to make protection roles confused. So right now, I'm going to make a vote to lynch the pony.

-vote fluttershy

Heihachi
June 24th, 2012, 10:09 PM
Oh my god you have got to be fucking me.

Roger
June 24th, 2012, 10:12 PM
Oh my god you have got to be fucking me.

Lol, was thinking the exact same thing.

Romo, read the vault rules.

Romo
June 24th, 2012, 10:17 PM
What did I do that violated it exactly?

Roger
June 24th, 2012, 10:20 PM
Lol, of course, the only place I missed. I checked through all seven hundred thousand regular FAQ questions and didn't find it there. Rawr.

Fluttershy, if you find out you you do get both suspicious and not suspicious results, you just check someone you're almost 100% sure is guaranteed town and see which way they flip. Like a mayor or something.

Roger, I don't want to sound mean. But your word vows aren't exactly saying much... Your vows, as broken down (refer to the vow post):
1. If you shoot in the vault, we'd know. There's no way a real vigilante would shoot in the vault this early in the game, unless you shoot first. So you're forced into not shooting if the people in the vault don't wish it so. Or else you'd be in deep trouble. So this vow was implied even if you didn't say anything.
2. Once we're out of the vault, we can't check this guarantee, that you won't fire unless upon agreement. Even if you shoot, you can just say the bullet didn't come out of your gun. And then we'd have no way of knowing.
3. As for conveying the target through code to only the vault members, I'm a bit against this. Especially if there's a Mafia member in here, all the Mafia would know whom you're shooting but only 5 townies max will know. I'd be more comfortable discussing the target with the entire town. You don't have to reveal you have the vigilante gun. But I'd be more comfortable with you taking the target that all of town agrees on. Some WIFOM would be preferable, as in saying something like "Yeah, I just deciphered the code from the person in our vault with the vigilante gun and he says he will shoot..." Something along those lines.

A reminder. We only have 24 hours for day. As of right now, it would seem like no one's going to get the gun. I do somewhat trust Roger however, so I guess my vote will go to him.


-vote Roger for vigilante gun

I am aware that my vows can only mean so much. the point was so that there would be less worrys of me shooting who ever I felt like, then later trying to justify my reasons. codes do have deffinate drawbacks, however, it's possible they could have use in the late game. the code was more to keep options open with vault communication.

Roger
June 24th, 2012, 10:22 PM
What did I do that violated it exactly?


During each day, instead of voting to LYNCH a player, you will vote to GIFT a player a weapon. When a player has received a weapon, at night they may choose to use the abilities of their weapon OR ​use their normal night action.

Day 1: Normal majority vote - once a player is 'hammered', they will receive a TWO-SHOT VIGILANTE GUN. Kills made by this gun will register as Vigilante kills.aa

Romo
June 24th, 2012, 10:34 PM
-unvote Fluttershy

Heihachi
June 24th, 2012, 11:40 PM
Day 1: Normal majority vote - once a player is 'hammered', they will receive a TWO-SHOT VIGILANTE GUN. Kills made by this gun will register as Vigilante kills.

Day 2: Secret ballot - one vote per player, sent directly to me, whoever has the most votes at the end of the day will be gifted with a VETERAN'S ASSAULT RIFLE. The player is gifted with the option to go on Alert at night a total of THREE times, and will like a Veteran whilst on Alert. Kills made while on Alert will be registered as Veteran kills.

Day 3: Secret ballot, one vote per player, sent directly to me. Whoever has the most votes may CHOOSE to give another player the abilities of a GUNSMITH - whoever wins the secret ballot may not choose to give themselves the ability of a Gunsmith, but must pick another player. The Gunsmith will have unlimited charges of his role and may act like a normal Gunsmith.

The only day that says you can't vote for yourself is Day 3.
So if no one else gets on, I'd go ahead and try to vote yourself, Roger, to see if that works since it's different than a lynch vote.
-vote Roger
That makes 3/4

Han
June 24th, 2012, 11:47 PM
This is all very well and good but for the record I don't think a gun should be given out at all. Just what happens if he decides to start killing and there's no propr way to stop him?
if flutter shy isnt lying then we don't have a doctor or bg or anything also what if there is a witch? and what if there isn't a witch and someone claims witches just as an excuse to misuse the gun?

Roger
June 25th, 2012, 12:20 AM
I have insomnia:(

hammering early makes no difference, since the days of the other vaults are still going. didn't notice that D3 rules points out that self voting is illegal, but D1 and D2 don't.

not certain if this counts, but we'll see.

-Vote Roger

Roger
June 25th, 2012, 12:23 AM
This is all very well and good but for the record I don't think a gun should be given out at all. Just what happens if he decides to start killing and there's no propr way to stop him?
if flutter shy isnt lying then we don't have a doctor or bg or anything also what if there is a witch? and what if there isn't a witch and someone claims witches just as an excuse to misuse the gun?

if no one blows cover, witch won't know I have the gun. unless I am mistaken, witch can only control my gun if I choose to arm myself that said night. if worst comes to worst, I can just not use the gun at all.

trust me, I'll be smart.

Forum Mafia GM
June 25th, 2012, 03:51 AM
You may indeed vote for yourself in this game.

Votes coloured and bolded are just about formatted well enough. Roger has received the Vigilante gun!

You may continue discussion as normal until night-time.

Lando
June 25th, 2012, 05:31 AM
Sooo I'm back. Congrats on the gun, Roger. Now for the rest of the goodies.
When it comes to the other abilities, how should we proceed? I'd like to have the one carrying the AR revealed to all players as the protection only works "safely", if the other know about it.
Do we agree that the Gunsmith should be revealed to all of us in the Vault? The recipient of the ability is hidden and only the one who got voted knows who he is. If it is not known to all of us and the one voted dies, gets cleaned or doesn't give out the Gunsmith's name, there is a great potential for misuse.
So who should we vote to give out the Gunsmith ability? Voting Roger would make sure that he can't get it, but he will have control on who get it. I don't know how much responsibility you want him to carry, but for now I'm leaning towards Vader. The kind of critical thinking he showed implies that he isn't just a happy-go-lucky player.
But more importantly we should decide who gets the Gunsmith ability. Not today - but before we vote somebody who gives out the ability, we should decide who gets to be the Gunsmith. For this I suggest a vote before actually voting somebody. Eligible players are listed in the list of volunteers and I hope we manage to get an absolute majority. Whoever gets to give out the gun has to give it to the one voted. Again having him revealed it in our best interest. So no WIFOM or gambits or whatnot.

Volunteers for gifts

VETERAN'S ASSAULT RIFLE:
Lando
Han
Vader (Is this in your intention? You didn't answer me)

GUNSMITH:
Heihachi
Han

Roger
June 25th, 2012, 09:30 AM
thx for all the support of my voters:)

Roger
June 25th, 2012, 09:58 AM
Sooo I'm back. Congrats on the gun, Roger. Now for the rest of the goodies.
When it comes to the other abilities, how should we proceed? I'd like to have the one carrying the AR revealed to all players as the protection only works "safely", if the other know about it.
Do we agree that the Gunsmith should be revealed to all of us in the Vault? The recipient of the ability is hidden and only the one who got voted knows who he is. If it is not known to all of us and the one voted dies, gets cleaned or doesn't give out the Gunsmith's name, there is a great potential for misuse.
So who should we vote to give out the Gunsmith ability? Voting Roger would make sure that he can't get it, but he will have control on who get it. I don't know how much responsibility you want him to carry, but for now I'm leaning towards Vader. The kind of critical thinking he showed implies that he isn't just a happy-go-lucky player.
But more importantly we should decide who gets the Gunsmith ability. Not today - but before we vote somebody who gives out the ability, we should decide who gets to be the Gunsmith. For this I suggest a vote before actually voting somebody. Eligible players are listed in the list of volunteers and I hope we manage to get an absolute majority. Whoever gets to give out the gun has to give it to the one voted. Again having him revealed it in our best interest. So no WIFOM or gambits or whatnot.

Volunteers for gifts

VETERAN'S ASSAULT RIFLE:
Lando
Han
Vader (Is this in your intention? You didn't answer me)

GUNSMITH:
Heihachi
Han

I haven't thought all that much about going into the running for the gunsmith tools. if I were to die, it could wipe out all of are offensive resources, even if it would keep all weapons under strict control. Hmmm, may have to think about whether it would be a good play, as I do agree that Vader does seem like the sort of person with good judgement.

however, I would like to be a candadite for the assult rifle. having the assult rifle would minimze any of the possible witch problems. no one with a victory condition which requires them to survive would risk death just to control a gun. giving the assult rifle to the same person with the gunsmith tools or vigilante gun could be a smart play, and unlike with a gunsmith, my gun only has 2 uses.

besides, the assult rifle is something we may not want to have publicaly revealed. more candadites is better:)

Roger
June 25th, 2012, 10:00 AM
oh, and 1 last thing. I was thinking last night about the crowd of people who don't want guns. certain neutrals who don't want to draw attention to themselves, and neutral killers who have other night actions may not want the gun.

Vader
June 25th, 2012, 11:31 AM
I am against Roger getting both the vigilante gun and veteran rifle. While it may serve to ward off unfriendly fire, it also serves to ward off fellow townmen. While I find you trustworthy for now, Roger, I'm not about to give you a free pass from all town's investigative roles from revealing your true colors if they differ from your outward appearance.

I suggest Fluttershy to check Roger tonight to confirm his alliance. It does have a 50/50 shot of failing, but it's a necessary precaution to take, I think. What do the rest of you think? Of course, there's always the chance of a framer or whatever, but if by chance another sheriff checks Roger in the future, or if he dies, then I know the framer is one of you 5.

As for the veteran rifle, whether I want it or not, the answer is, I honestly don't care. If you find no one better to give it to, I'll gladly wield it. But if you find someone more suitable, then by all means, give it to that person. I won't fight for it is what I'm saying.

I, however, definitely do not want to be gunsmith. I can take the duty of being the giver to someone else being gunsmith, but not the actual gunsmith himself. The reason why: I'm not trying to sound arrogant, but I consider myself a fairly seasoned player at FMs. I want to contribute to town's discussion. Mafia only has two targets they prioritize taking out: experienced players, or dangerous power roles. And they tend to favor killing the latter. If you give me gunsmith, then you are making me the prime target for Mafia, as they can literally take out two birds with one stone.

By not giving me this power, Mafia has two choices. They can kill me off to disconnect an contribution source to day chat. Or they can choose to kill some other person who's a gunsmith. I'm not about to let them have a go at both in one night.

Lando
June 25th, 2012, 11:38 AM
I haven't thought all that much about going into the running for the gunsmith tools. if I were to die, it could wipe out all of are offensive resources, even if it would keep all weapons under strict control. Hmmm, may have to think about whether it would be a good play, as I do agree that Vader does seem like the sort of person with good judgement.
Really really bad idea in my opinion. Every time you use the Vigilante gun, you can't give out a Gunsmith gun. Which in turn means we are losing out on two possible night kills.


however, I would like to be a candadite for the assult rifle. having the assult rifle would minimze any of the possible witch problems. no one with a victory condition which requires them to survive would risk death just to control a gun. giving the assult rifle to the same person with the gunsmith tools or vigilante gun could be a smart play, and unlike with a gunsmith, my gun only has 2 uses.
I don't think giving you the AR, too, is a good idea. It seems wasted to me. That would give you a sum of 5 one-time-use abilities. Meaning that you would nearly never get to perform another night action (unless you have none). But if you have none, I'd prefer to see it on a role like Sheriff/Doctor/Bus Driver/..., in short high priority targets on scum kill lists.
The Witch is only a problem if she is in our Vault. This is META, but I highly doubt there is one in here, considering that you are forced to use the gun when witched.
Additionally I don't like the idea of stacking too many of our tools on one player.


besides, the assult rifle is something we may not want to have publicaly revealed. more candadites is better:)
Could you please elaborate on that?


oh, and 1 last thing. I was thinking last night about the crowd of people who don't want guns. certain neutrals who don't want to draw attention to themselves, and neutral killers who have other night actions may not want the gun.
And of course Town roles with strong abilities. I think it's shortsighted to go and say: "I'm confirmed Town to me, I should try to get that item, so that it doesn't get into the hands of potential scum." Give the Citizens something to do at night. That way no night action is wasted.

Vader
June 25th, 2012, 11:51 AM
A question, Lando, if I may.

Why, exactly, do you want the veteran assault rifle? You stated that you're not a big fan of it since it can potentially backfire on town. But yet you signed up to take it. Is it because you trust your own judgment to use it wisely, better than most town, or... something else perhaps?

Heihachi
June 25th, 2012, 11:57 AM
I would prefer not stacking tools on one player as it gives mafia more incentive to take them out and rid us of a lot of power fairly easily.
I think Fluttershy would have been a good target for the AR but now I'm unsure, knowing she doesn't seem to know what's going on, she could be manipulated fairly easily by mafia if she's some sort of schizo sheriff.
Yea I'll say I wouldn't really want the AR gun. I'm a citizen, and giving me a veteran rifle will just deter mafia from shooting me even more.
However. if I got the gunsmith, then mafia would either have to use a kill on me, shooting a citizen, or leave me alone and worry about guns being handed out.

Vader
June 25th, 2012, 12:10 PM
Yea I'll say I wouldn't really want the AR gun. I'm a citizen, and giving me a veteran rifle will just deter mafia from shooting me even more.
However. if I got the gunsmith, then mafia would either have to use a kill on me, shooting a citizen, or leave me alone and worry about guns being handed out.

For all intents and purposes, if you were citizen and got the ability of gunsmith, you might as well as just call yourself gunsmith, since you have unlimited charges of the ability. Mafia killing you is just like killing a regular PR. You pretty much cease to be citizen at that point. However, I suppose in the instance of a soul thief or something, he can't steal your "ability" away, right? Since you are still technically citizen by default.

Forum Mafia GM
June 25th, 2012, 12:11 PM
However, I suppose in the instance of a soul thief or something, he can't steal your "ability" away, right? Since you are still technically citizen by default.

- Correct

Vader
June 25th, 2012, 12:14 PM
Look at dat FM Game Master go. Answered my question within a few seconds of posting it. :D
-vote best FMGM customer service evar

Okay, I'll stop spamming posts. Off for a little while now.

Roger
June 25th, 2012, 12:33 PM
Really really bad idea in my opinion. Every time you use the Vigilante gun, you can't give out a Gunsmith gun. Which in turn means we are losing out on two possible night kills.


I don't think giving you the AR, too, is a good idea. It seems wasted to me. That would give you a sum of 5 one-time-use abilities. Meaning that you would nearly never get to perform another night action (unless you have none). But if you have none, I'd prefer to see it on a role like Sheriff/Doctor/Bus Driver/..., in short high priority targets on scum kill lists.
The Witch is only a problem if she is in our Vault. This is META, but I highly doubt there is one in here, considering that you are forced to use the gun when witched.
Additionally I don't like the idea of stacking too many of our tools on one player.


Could you please elaborate on that?


And of course Town roles with strong abilities. I think it's shortsighted to go and say: "I'm confirmed Town to me, I should try to get that item, so that it doesn't get into the hands of potential scum." Give the Citizens something to do at night. That way no night action is wasted.



4) Gunsmith tools and vigilante gun should go to different people. Giving the assult riffle and the gun to the same person is a possibility.

I'm not asking for the gunsmith tools and the only reason I even considered the possibility of taking the gunsmith tools is because it sounded like Lando thought I could be a possible candidate, so I considered the implacations. however, I never asked for them.

to elaborate on my reasons for possibly wanting the assult rifle, it will help ward off unfriendlys who want to control/block the gun. having the vigilante gun causes me to become a threat while I do not want to roleclaim D1, I will say that if I do have an ability, it is not one that I will need to consistently use. this game is likely to last at very least 5 days past the vault oppening, so waste shouldn't be an issue if I do get the rifle. If your worried about my scum potential and me using the rifle to ward off townies, we do have a sheriff claim in here. while there may be a few issues if I need to be rechecked in the future, it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Lastly, I do not think that the owner of the assult rifle being know for certain is nessicarily a good thing, as if there is scum in this vault, they can alert their teamates of who not to target. therefore, maximimizing the people who could recieve the rifle is something I believe to be a good thing.

hope that answered all rifle questions

Lando
June 25th, 2012, 12:40 PM
A question, Lando, if I may.

Why, exactly, do you want the veteran assault rifle? You stated that you're not a big fan of it since it can potentially backfire on town. But yet you signed up to take it. Is it because you trust your own judgment to use it wisely, better than most town, or... something else perhaps?
You misunderstood me. I said I don't like Veteran as a role - with his forced alerts every night. The Veteran has nothing but his alert. To use it against scum he has to stay hidden. But being hidden can backfire on Town just as much. Being revealed makes him nothing more but a citizen (or even worst, consider Witch) as nobody visits him.
The Assault Rifle on the other hand can be paired up with another role. Being revealed gives the wielder a certain degree of protection - not on par with the Veteran but definitely strong. But the major difference to the Veteran is that the wielder can still choose to take his regular night action. The usefulness of the wielder will make scum target him, but the AR is a major threat to them.
So the wielder just reveals himself and won't need any external protection. As long as he takes no heat in the day chat he can freely use the AR as no Town should have to target him. Of course he will want to use his regular night action as often as possible, so he will have to balance them out. On the other hand if he is pressured and Town wants confirmation through night actions he can choose to NOT use his alert.
These are all things the Veteran can't do.

Lando
June 25th, 2012, 01:14 PM
@Vader: I agree on checking Roger.

@Roger: I got to admit that I not tot thrilled about your suggested AR usage. It's the type that can easily hurt Town.

Roger
June 25th, 2012, 01:20 PM
@Roger: I got to admit that I not tot thrilled about your suggested AR usage. It's the type that can easily hurt Town.

In mafia, high rewards require high risks.

Lando
June 25th, 2012, 01:49 PM
The ratio of reward to risk is much better for my suggested usage than yours in my option.

Vader
June 25th, 2012, 01:52 PM
while there may be a few issues if I need to be rechecked in the future, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Elaborate, please. Why would rechecking you in the future not be a problem? For us to check you, we'd first have to tell you that we're checking you tonight. Which means, if you comply, you'd have to lower your rifle. This leaves you vulnerable to scum attacks/manipulation. We are, relatively speaking, safe in the vault right now. If any scum tries anything in here, he'd be caught within the day.


Lastly, I do not think that the owner of the assult rifle being know for certain is nessicarily a good thing, as if there is scum in this vault, they can alert their teamates of who not to target.

This is what the assault rifle's purpose is in our vault. We are delegating it to the person we most want to keep alive through this game, and give them almost guaranteed protection. I'd rather not leave us all to our own devices and let someone random get it, as then it would be no different than having a real Veteran on the loose. While Mafia does not know who it is, town does not either. This is a problem.


You misunderstood me. I said I don't like Veteran as a role - with his forced alerts every night. The Veteran has nothing but his alert. To use it against scum he has to stay hidden. But being hidden can backfire on Town just as much. Being revealed makes him nothing more but a citizen (or even worst, consider Witch) as nobody visits him.

I understand you better now. However, you still have not answered my initial question. What do you seek from getting the rifle? Protection because of your role? Because you trust no one else with it? Because you believe your contributions to day chat will be valuable, and want to avoid scum killing you off? All of the above? To make it clear, I'm not fishing for a role claim here. But you never really answered why you wanted the rifle, and really just signed up skirting the question.


In mafia, high rewards require high risks.

Sorry, this rationale will never fly with me. I've always been a firm believer that town always has a fair chance of winning without pulling any dangerous tricks. Occasional WIFOM is about as far as it goes with most town. It's almost always the scum pulling gambits to save themselves. I'm not saying town never does any clever maneuvers. But from a general standpoint, at least to me, there's no reason to rely on any tricks when there's a fair group of reliable town members.

FM Ferengi
June 25th, 2012, 02:17 PM
-vote best FMGM customer service evar

;(

Lando
June 25th, 2012, 02:29 PM
Protection because of your role? Yes.
Because you trust no one else with it? There are many I wouldn't entrust it with.
Because you believe your contributions to day chat will be valuable, and want to avoid scum killing you off? Yes.
That about covers it.

Roger
June 25th, 2012, 03:35 PM
well, a lot of the rifle arguments are coming from a difference of opinions. I believe the rifle is most useful when it can actualy take out scum, while you want to use it for it's deffensive purposes. however, since the majority agrees that we should pubilicaly know who has the gun, I'm willing to vote Lando tommrow.

Roger
June 25th, 2012, 03:36 PM
Roger out.

Forum Mafia GM
June 25th, 2012, 03:49 PM
Hey folks, Roxy here wanting to wish y'all a good night!

I can see on my security feed that some firepower is being prepared down there. Well, you know what Kay Kyser always says...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc0xB3VOoF4