Brainstorm - How to fix Cult

[Oberyn]

So, I think it's pretty obvious that everyone hates the current mechanics on the Cult / Cult Leader. Even I hate the fact that revealed scum can dance around in day chat because of the more imminent threat. So, to avoid this kind of situation, I want to hear ideas how we can fix the cult to make it more of a balanced role that would not allow mafia and town to gang up on and preferably prevent any game-throwing ideas.. (PRs looking to be recruited)

[Ser Jorah]

Not allowing the Cult Leader to recruit mafia roles may be something to look at. It means that the mafia teams no longer have to worry about an instant GG if someone gets culted, and it gives the mafia less incentive to worry about helping the town.

I liked the Masons in this setup. I think there's potential in it, being able to recruit new partners if one dies does mean that the Masons want to play a bit more cautiously, yet completely killing them off requires major slip ups or some bad luck.

Though I still like the Cult Leader. This game it was easy to be paranoid because of the huge number of unknown players. If it was easier for the players to punish and focus on lurkers, rather than having just one precious lynch per day, then people might be more active and it would require more work from the Cult to fit in.

I think the mafia recruitment issue is the only grey area. The Cult are only strong through mind-games. The potential for mis-conversions or simply having members shot, coupled with the fact that in a big game the fear of cultists greatly outweighs the actual number of cultists, does keep the cult in check.

[Oberyn]

I have to agree that once a mafia member is culted, that mafia has next to 0% chance of winning unless the numbers are heavily in their favor. I knew they would try to recruit Tywin that same night (although they failed by pure accident) and there was nothing I could do to stop them and lets face it, no matter how good a player is, he can't win on his own.

The fact that I couldn't kill off the cult without having the risk of my entire team being revealed in their last will was also one of my main concerns. Especially since Jack did just that in FM8 so I knew he would allow it. Kinda left me with no option than to reveal my own mafia so that town and red mafia could see what the cult were trying to do in hopes that they would be smart enough to lynch cult.

As for the masons, I loved them in this setup... probably the best masons we've ever had (if the players could use them better). But if we limit the cult to not being able to recruit mafia, they might be a little over-powered.

The other possibility I was looking at is having reserve players take over culted roles. As in once you get culted, you loose and are sent to the graveyard with your original account while a reserve player gets your culted account. This would prevent the cult from learning all the mafia on a team and would absolutely remove the incentive to game-throw to become culted.

[Ser Gregor]

FM7*

[Ser Ilyn]

FM7*
Good times....

[Ser Gregor]

You cannot stop Ted

[Auckmid]

I hated the Cult Leader, and the fact that we had in FM1... and 2... and 3...(FM4 was ruined D3)... and 5... kinda again in 6... and 7... lovers were the dumbest idea ever, so FM8 practicaly had a 2 person cult who knew who all the mafias were... modified cult in FM9... and another modified cult in FM11...

So in a way, FMX was the only game with no cult:weird:(Even thought FMIX cult was actualy okay.)

[Ganondorf]

FM XI cult was the best ^.^

[The Nightbringer]

So in a way, FMX was the only game with no cult:weird:(Even thought FMIX cult was actualy okay.)

I thought FMX had a cult. I'll have to go double check.

[Yayap]

I thought FMX had a cult. I'll have to go double check.

There was... >.> FM Raiden was Cult Leader.

[Auckmid]

There was... >.> FM Raiden was Cult Leader.

Yeah, but he was mokilled D1:p

[The Nightbringer]

I'm still confused. Why was FM Raiden modkilled? Did he skype cheat or something?

[Luna]

I'm still confused. Why was FM Raiden modkilled? Did he skype cheat or something?

It was all a joke. FM Raiden was the 51st player in a 50 player game. He was an old veteran member of this forum before he left a while ago, and his name got a cameo in the game. I think it was also Yayap's way of trolling us a bit before shutting down the possibility of a Cult Leader (Cult was no longer a possible role). Though I can't quite remember if there was any possibility of an Amnesiac remembering the role or not.

[Ubernox]

Don't nerf cult, I still haven't had the chance to be a part of it yet.


Indeed, having it so that the cult can't recruit Mafia would be an interesting change. To go even further, you could make it so that they can only recruit citizens. This would be good in citizen-heavy games, but also in games including a masons because usually a citizen could claim for recruitment and be ignored by the cult because they're looking for power roles. This change could change things into an intriguing land war, in which claiming citizen could be considered siding with the enemy/game throwing, and the two factions would be constantly attempting to kill each other.

[Ubernox]

Methinks that introducing cult into an unprepared setup is like introducing foreign animals into an unprepared ecosystem. They just out-do everything else. The natives have no hope, because they did not evolve and develop alongside these new predators/competitors. Similarly, I believe that the basic principles of mafia were not developed with an all-converting 3rd faction in mind. The fact that their default convert works on anyone and allows cultists to retain their role abilities means that they can easily adapt/become dominant in almost any setup.

As it is, I don't think the standard template of 2 mafia/town/neutrals is suitable for a cult. For a cult to work on-par with the other factions, a setup must be crafted specifically with them in mind. Merely one way of doing this would be introducing this species' natural predator.

[Auckmid]

It was all a joke. FM Raiden was the 51st player in a 50 player game. He was an old veteran member of this forum before he left a while ago, and his name got a cameo in the game. I think it was also Yayap's way of trolling us a bit before shutting down the possibility of a Cult Leader (Cult was no longer a possible role). Though I can't quite remember if there was any possibility of an Amnesiac remembering the role or not.

That wasn't it. It was to give the amnesiac the option of becoming the cult leader.

[Luna]

That wasn't it. It was to give the amnesiac the option of becoming the cult leader.

Well I did mention that in my last sentence :) But I said I couldn't remember if there was the possibility or not, because I can't remember if there was ever a Neutral Amnesiac. I only remember Town and Mafia ones.

[BorkBot]

I think that cult recruiting mafia members is fine if the mafia is big enough to take a hit or if they actually get a conversion immune enforcer. In this setup though, a mafia that loses a member to conversion was pretty much dead meat.

The red mafia wouldn't have stood a chance either if the town's performance on the first 5 days wasn't as awful as it was. I had fully expected this to turn out as a town vs cult game in the long run.

[BorkBot]

Red mafia wasn't even very good at hiding themselves except perhaps Auckmid, heh.

[The Nightbringer]

Red mafia wasn't even very good at hiding themselves except perhaps Auckmid, heh.

You guys underestimate how well Ser Ilyn did. If it wasn't for the fact that I knew that the Red mafia had to have not voted the jester to kill that night, I would not have pinned Ser Ilyn as the graverobber. He looked like every other citizen this game.

[The Nightbringer]

although... I do agree, Bronn and Ser Rodrik combined with Yoren were easy to identify as scum.

[BorkBot]

No, he really didn't. Ser Ilyn looked like Tywin, Janos and Stannis. That's why I called them out at the same time.

Unless you expect citizens to suck of course, but I thought Samwell was the only genuinely sucky citizen ;)

But let's not digress, this topic is about le cult.

[Luna]

All I could say about Ser Ilyn was that he was some form of scum; once the game had progressed and the town was running low on power roles I thought he became very noticeable. However as you can see from my posts, while I was calling him out for half the game, I was mostly concerned about him being the Cult Leader, and near the end possibly the Godfather, but mostly tied to the cult.

The day chat wasn't helped by the information that normally guides it. There weren't a whole lot of investigative results from people, and we weren't awash with people claiming to have received feedback messages which we could sort through. I think this exacerbated any other issues unduly, but personally I still had fun.

[Nick]

How about this?


Low Town: See that Mafia lose.
High Town: See that Mafia and Cult lose.
Mafia: See that Town and Cult lose.
Cult: See that High Town and Mafia lose. Can only recruit Low Town

In other words, High Town also plays the role of anti-cult. But Low Town need not be citizen only (thus avoiding non-committal lurkers). Low Town need not take sides between High Town and Cult unless recruited to replace dead High Town or inducted into Cult. Night chats for High Town, Mafia and Cult.

[The Nightbringer]

Who were you Luna?

[MagmaRam]

How about this?



In other words, High Town also plays the role of anti-cult. But Low Town need not be citizen only (thus avoiding non-committal lurkers). Low Town need not take sides between High Town and Cult unless recruited to replace dead High Town or inducted into Cult. Night chats for High Town, Mafia and Cult.
Isn't this just making High Town into a mason faction, with regular town now able to win with Cult?

edit: It's a buff to cult, I thought that that wasn't supposed to be what's happening. It makes lynching cultists impossible, since low town will only care about mafia members, so going for cult is basically admitting to be High Town or Mafia (thus making yourself an obvious target).

[BorkBot]

Luna was the WIFOMing armoursmith, Ser Jorah. Unless she's playing jedi mind tricks on me.

Nick, while your idea is sort of interesting I fear it might result in another FM VII debacle. Neutral cits = awful and in fact I think it encourages lurky behaviour. I'd rather see the roles reversed. i.e. power roles can be culted and citizens can't.

Maybe take it even further and have a mason faction that can only recruit power roles as well (and those have the night chat, while other town PRs do not).

[Nick]

Isn't this just making High Town into a mason faction, with regular town now able to win with Cult?

High Town need not be a mason faction. Depends on the theme I guess. But High Town should have more important/powerful town roles.

Meh. Still can't solve the problem of angry Low Town being recruited to losing High Town or Cult.

[BorkBot]

What about this?

Mason Leader: See that Mafia and Cult lose, can recruit power roles but can't kill cultists.
Town Power Roles: See that Mafia loses. (game won't end until either cult or masons are eliminated)
Citizens: See that Mafia and Cult lose.
Mafia: See that Town and Cult lose.
Cult Leader: See that Masons and Mafia lose. Can only recruit Town Power Roles. Targeting masons = kill masons.

This way you have the mafia trying to kill unconverted town power roles, cultists and masons.
Citizens will be encouraged to act like PRs and have to be pro-active. Maybe fake claim occasionally.
Cult and Masons will be competing for town PRs. Masons need a vigilante or they won't get any night kills.

[BorkBot]

Lol... X-men theme.

Mason Leader (Charles Xavier)
Town Power Roles (mutants)
Citizens (humans)
Mafia (Anti Mutant Government)
Cult Leader (Magneto)

[The Nightbringer]

The problem with cult is that is takes almost all the focus off the mafia. This game is called mafia not cult. I think we need to find a way that makes cult more of a secondary role rather than the main enemy.

[BorkBot]

I suppose you do have a point, but I don't really think there is a way for the cult to be anything minor if it's included at all. You either have a cult or you don't.

Otherwise you have to resort to revolutionists.

[Nick]

What about
1) Low Town being investigative roles and primarily anti-mafia
2) High Town being killing roles and anti-cult
3) Cult can recruit or kill
4) Mafia still mafia

Then again, they might still lurk. Need to think of incentives and ways to direct game strategy.

PR recruitment is OP. Poor mafia.

Otherwise, how about balanced Town A and Town B (both are cults) with very strong Mafia. Those who die unrecruited have an easy win. Promotes scum hunting I guess.

[Nick]

Otherwise, how about balanced Town A and Town B (both are cults) with very strong Mafia. Those who die unrecruited have an easy win. Promotes scum hunting I guess.

Crown Prince (Town A) and Second Prince (Town B) with Revolutionist (Mafia).

[BorkBot]

Double cult vs mafia could be interesting, but it's really out there. Would be a highly experimental setup...

[MagmaRam]

What about
1) Low Town being investigative roles and primarily anti-mafia
2) High Town being killing roles and anti-cult
3) Cult can recruit or kill
4) Mafia still mafia

Then again, they might still lurk. Need to think of incentives and ways to direct game strategy.

PR recruitment is OP. Poor mafia.

Otherwise, how about balanced Town A and Town B (both are cults) with very strong Mafia. Those who die unrecruited have an easy win. Promotes scum hunting I guess.
I still think that a large group that doesn't need to hunt Cult promotes nobody hunting Cultists. It'll be obvious that you're either High Town or Mafia if you try to hunt for cultists, and then the other factions will know that you're bad news. Basically, it'll be a game of "can High Town keep enough Low Town alive to kill the mafia during daytime once they and mafia kill off all the cultists".

[Nick]

What about this?

Mason Leader: See that Mafia and Cult lose, can recruit power roles but can't kill cultists.
Town Power Roles: See that Mafia loses. (game won't end until either cult or masons are eliminated)
Citizens: See that Mafia and Cult lose.
Mafia: See that Town and Cult lose.
Cult Leader: See that Masons and Mafia lose. Can only recruit Town Power Roles. Targeting masons = kill masons.

This way you have the mafia trying to kill unconverted town power roles, cultists and masons.
Citizens will be encouraged to act like PRs and have to be pro-active. Maybe fake claim occasionally.
Cult and Masons will be competing for town PRs. Masons need a vigilante or they won't get any night kills.

I think your suggestion might work. Just need to tweak the balance.

Tired to see filler citizens in a lot of games.

[BorkBot]

Though I'd handle that similar to a setup Dimwit posted a long time ago.

The Town A and Town B wouldn't have faction wide night chats, but each has one "mason leader" (the prince) who can recruit players who pledge allegiance to him to his mason night chat.

Basically, the townies would start out with a preferred alignment that's divided 50/50 among the two princes and they have to win with that alignment.

[Nick]

I still think that a large group that doesn't need to hunt Cult promotes nobody hunting Cultists. It'll be obvious that you're either High Town or Mafia if you try to hunt for cultists, and then the other factions will know that you're bad news. Basically, it'll be a game of "can High Town keep enough Low Town alive to kill the mafia during daytime once they and mafia kill off all the cultists".

For this they might need to conduct their business at night. They can only detect buddying during the day.

Overall Borkbot's more balanced in a sense everything can be conducted day or night. They only possible weakness is that culted PRs will behave like citizens. And the setup cannot have too many citizens.

[Yayap]

Tired to see filler citizens in a lot of games.

I'm tired of seeing people give up when they see citizen in their PM. Citizen is my favorite role, it helps balance out soo many things in the setup as well. If people would know how to use the role and actually play, it would be much more interesting.

Don't get rid of citizens. They are the most important role to keep. If citizens played like The Nightbringer, this game would have been much more interesting to read. Even Red Mafia wanted to kill Oberyn even though he "wasn't" a power role. What better way to take a bullet?

[BorkBot]

What's nice about the setup style I suggested is that you could include roles like a jailor or an architect that allow the masons to communicate with citizens, though they run the risk of talking to a godfather/cult leader. And the cult could do the same thing...

That way citizens will still be involved.

It might also be possible to have the mason leader and the cult leader start with a "right hand" kind of role, similar to the angels of jesus (I actually liked that part of the FMVII setup) who are able to recruit a citizen to replace their leader if their leader dies (that was a good mechanic for the masons in this game). And allow the mason leader/cult leader to replace his right hand man with a citizen as well.

[Nick]

If people would know how to use the role and actually play, it would be much more interesting... What better way to take a bullet?

Taking the bullet is great and all but I think most players assume that it is all what citizens do... which is sad.

I blame the over reliance of power roles. Otherwise, it's the unavoidable issue of real life and time commitment.

[Nick]

That way citizens will still be involved.

To put it in a bad way, some sort of crutch I guess...

It's still useless unless they scum hunt instead of waiting around and acting stupid.

[The Nightbringer]

I'm tired of seeing people give up when they see citizen in their PM. Citizen is my favorite role, it helps balance out soo many things in the setup as well. If people would know how to use the role and actually play, it would be much more interesting.

Don't get rid of citizens. They are the most important role to keep. If citizens played like The Nightbringer, this game would have been much more interesting to read. Even Red Mafia wanted to kill Oberyn even though he "wasn't" a power role. What better way to take a bullet?

+1
Scum hunting citizens are a force to be feared by scum, knowing that they have to waste a kill on a non power role to shut them up.

[BorkBot]

Nobody even thought of shooting me at night until near the end, when they started to search for the cult leader :p

I like to think I was pretty pro-active. And I did catch a bullet on my vest once, and almost would've done it twice if Auckmid had gone through with attacking me again because he thought I was a cultist, which was mathematically impossible (I think the GM didn't want it to happen either because he never gave me a new password after the ghost possessed me, lol... I do believe there was some bias there and he was helping the mafia win in day chat and night chat, but whatever)